Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

[sanman]

Will India Produce Jet Engines Next? What Do We Need To Build The Capacity?

[vera_k]

GE Aerospace Says Over a Dozen Suppliers at Fault for Shortages

15 different suppliers across supply chain to blame: CEO Culp
Says naysayers would be foolish to bet against China’s Comac

[maitya]

Interesting nugget on GTREs TV effort - from Alpha Defense:
TV effort by GTRE
Details about its Progress

[Dexter]

Will India Produce Jet Engines Next? What Do We Need To Build The Capacity?

Video says that GE has already given machines to create fine features so there is finally some useful ToT

[sanman]

Video says that GE has already given machines to create fine features so there is finally some useful ToT

We seem to be very hostage to the machines that build the machines

[Dexter]

Admiral saab

I want to send you a DM. Can you please allow or send me a Hi to which I can reply.

[Rakesh]

Admiral saab

I want to send you a DM. Can you please allow or send me a Hi to which I can reply.

Sent you email.

[sanman]

More Russian Engine Options for India

[isubodh]

More Russian Engine Options for India

We are looking for Jet engine ToT from France, US but why we never got it from Russia.
If Russia is not willing even after buying so many fighters, what chance we have with France or US.

[sanman]

We are looking for Jet engine ToT from France, US but why we never got it from Russia.
If Russia is not willing even after buying so many fighters, what chance we have with France or US.

I assume Russia is now upping their offer, because they see us looking increasingly toward GE after Trump's re-election.

[maitya]

We are looking for Jet engine ToT from France, US but why we never got it from Russia.
If Russia is not willing even after buying so many fighters, what chance we have with France or US.

I assume Russia is now upping their offer, because they see us looking increasingly toward GE after Trump's re-election.

Unfortunately, they are not ... they are still stuck with a notion that this turd-world nation is technologically not capable enough to handle 4-4.5 gen turbofan engine end-to-end manufacturing.
And can't blame them - without an engine like Kaveri in operational service, there's no way to demonstrate indigenous capability etc.

All the Russian engines that we Lic Mfg (aka screw-driver) in India like RD-33MK, AL-31FP etc, are barely 4th Gen at best - and are simply not in the league of true blue 4+ Gen F414 or M88 or EJ200 etc. And worse, even for them, Russia has made sure all key component raw material (and also their mfg technology) have to be imported from Russia.

Pls note, we do have indigenous technological capabilities that are about a gen more advanced than those employed for RD-33MK/AL-31FP etc - but without an operational engine in mass-manufacturing (and spanning over atleast a few years), where's the proof of those technological capabilities.
No wonder, Russians think that they can just offer AL-41F (just an upgraded AL-31F, and those upgrades are well within Indian's reach), for the Super Sukhoi program, and we'd simply lap it up.
etc etc.

The exception of course is Izdeliya-30 - from whatever little info that has been revealed, it's true-blue 5th Gen turbofan - maybe still not in league of F119/F135 etc (only very less has been revealed so far), but maybe not that far either.
And for almost a decade (FGFA days) we have been asking for these technologies or for atleast an Lic Mfg arrangement.
But nothing came thru, so far.

So wrt Russian TF engine tech help etc, is concerned - we are stuck between the following two:
1) The TF technologies (of RD-33MK or AL-31F), that can be made available, if we really press for them is not the technologies that we are really looking for (from TF D&D perspective).
In fact, had the threat of Warranty being voided etc, not been there, I'm pretty sure, a good upgrade for them (in line of F404 -> F414) could have been designed and implemented by us alone.

2) Russian has not agreed to share any of the 5th Gen tech of Izdeliya-30 ... not even for Lic Mfg.
So far atleast ... and I suspect, such technologies will be very tightly coupled with LiC Mfg deal of some 100+ Su-57 (or it's twin-seater FGFA derivative) - not happening!!



Between, I think you are mistaken, if you think GE (via GE-414 ToT) will have any value-add wrt our indigenous TF D&D is concerned ... you may want to refer to some my posts on this thread over last couple of years.

However, pls don't get me wrong - such ToAsT deals, would certainly help a mass-manufacturer (like HAL), to master (and also accumulate experience) various aspects of mass-manufacturing technologies of modern 4+ Gen TF engines - even though, some of the key systems (e.g. Turbine components) will be full imported (and then assembled and tested here).

Also pls note, this GE-F414 (4+ Gen) ToAsT based mass-manufacturing, is the evolutionary next step from first Adour (3rd Gen), then RD-33MK (4th Gen) and then onto AL-31FP (somewhat "incremental" 4th Gen) mass-manufacturing.
Ofcourse, it would have been ideal, if we were able to secure some level of "indigenous parts replacement" type agreement for the RD-33MK or AL-31FP, similar to what has been done for the Adours decade+ back.
pls refer to posts from 2009-2011 timeframes in this very thread archives
But nevertheless, it's still a net value-add wrt TF mass-manufacturing technology devt and TF MIC dev pov - after all, just Turbines or even the Hot Sections doesn't make the entire TF.

This expertise/experience will certainly come handy productionising whenever any of our 4+ Gen indigenous TF design is ready (read fully certified and mass-manufacturing ordered).

Sorry for digressing from your original post ...

[Haridas]

Dhanyawaad bandhu.

Bottom line is unless Bharat puts money on table (~$10 Bn) spread over 6 to 10 years for 5 or 5.5 gen engine development and use of that engine on Indian crafts in qty 2000 pcs ($10 bn) over another 10 years, to make it worthwhile.

The catch-up needed in many engineering deciplines, all around digital twin core of concurrent engineering.

[NRao]

Dhanyawaad bandhu.

Bottom line is unless Bharat puts money on table (~$10 Bn) spread over 6 to 10 years for 5 or 5.5 gen engine development and use of that engine on Indian crafts in qty 2000 pcs ($10 bn) over another 10 years, to make it worthwhile.

The catch-up needed in many engineering deciplines, all around digital twin core of concurrent engineering.

Tactical:

$0.5 billion per engine per year

Two engines

________________________________________________________________________-

Strategic:

Dedicated funding for at least 10 universities.

Family of engines - 50 kN to 200 kN

________________________________________________________________________

More than probable

[NRao]

engines

[maitya]

Upping the thread, with a few tidbits on Kaveri program updates:

Recently there were a few reports that the Brahmos Aerospace has completed development of the AB for the Kaveri Dry engine, and that it's producing 29KN of "additional" (read Wet) thrust - the context of this "news" can be found in this old post.
However, this video report by Alpha Defense sort-of debunks it, by way of stating that, nothing of that kind of status-reporting by Brahmos Aerospace or by GTRE hasn't happened yet - and maybe during the AeroIndia 25, true status will emerge.

That said, this report does bring out a few more following points, in addition to those already reported earlier (refer to my post above):

1) In addition to developing the AB, Brahmos Aerospace is also entrusted with integrating the Kaveri Dry Engine with this new AB.
In this context, do note there were reports a few months back, that Godrej has already delivered a few Kaveri dry engines.

2) A new Fan was developed recently, and this new Fan when integrated with the already developed dry Kaveri, is producing 51KN dry thrust.
Again in this context, recall that the dry Kaveri version that was taken to Gromov Test Center, for high Altitude testing, had achieved 48.5KN dry thrust (expectation was 46KN).
Also remember, dev of this new Fan was reported, albeit completely disjointly, about an year or so back (will have to dig out that ref).

[Kailash]

So this new fan is part of the 8 engines produced already. Will this additional fan fit within the envisaged dimensions/weight of the afterburning Kaveri?

[srai]

Is this real?


https://x.com/Rethik_D/status/1714526559305114009

First Tejas with Kaveri engine undergoing taxi Trial
-AIRFRAME:KH-2018:)
@ReviewVayu a shocker for you

[neerajb]

Looks photoshopped to me. No flaps/slats are down, not anchored so most likely taxiing. Why would you need reheat for taxiing?

[sanjayc]

^^ Read the Twitter thread. It is photoshopped.

The poster who posted this pix says this:

the pic on top is a edit,actual it's happening!

[williams]

The exhaust nozzle looks uncovered. Is that how they do taxi trails? It is also possible to take a picture from a lab test and Photoshop it. I think it it Photoshopped.

[Yogi_G]

Interesting. https://idrw.org/midhani-develops-high- ... lications/

[williams]

Interesting. https://idrw.org/midhani-develops-high- ... lications/

That is all good news, but we still need enough funding/investment to put together a Kaveri 2.0 and its variants in a reasonably short timeframe. We are starving all our fighter projects now and will become even more vulnerable when it is time to replace them. I am not sure Americans will be reliable suppliers once we have a direct conflict with their favorite Pakis or we become direct competitors to their lucrative export market.

[Nikhil_Naya]

Is this real?

https://x.com/Rethik_D/status/1714526559305114009

First Tejas with Kaveri engine undergoing taxi Trial
-AIRFRAME:KH-2018:)
@ReviewVayu a shocker for you

Photoshopped - but what is the buzz is that it is probably close to being mounted on a twin engine jet. RM visiting Russ...

[Rakesh]

Interesting. https://idrw.org/midhani-develops-high- ... lications/

Please do not post stuff from IDRW. The amount of yarns that dude spins out is astounding.

And if it is not a yarn, they he just shamelessly xerox copies from the internet and claims it as his own.

His all time best line ---> Sources close to IDRW stated, "....."

[Rakesh]

Photoshopped - but what is the buzz is that it is probably close to being mounted on a twin engine jet. RM visiting Russ...

https://x.com/SJha1618/status/1862877483504370160 ---> The Indian defence minister's forthcoming visit to Russia is probably going to be the most significant one in years.

[VishnuS]

Upping the thread, with a few tidbits on Kaveri program updates:

Recently there were a few reports that the Brahmos Aerospace has completed development of the AB for the Kaveri Dry engine, and that it's producing 29KN of "additional" (read Wet) thrust - the context of this "news" can be found in this old post.
However, this video report by Alpha Defense sort-of debunks it, by way of stating that, nothing of that kind of status-reporting by Brahmos Aerospace or by GTRE hasn't happened yet - and maybe during the AeroIndia 25, true status will emerge.

That said, this report does bring out a few more following points, in addition to those already reported earlier (refer to my post above):

1) In addition to developing the AB, Brahmos Aerospace is also entrusted with integrating the Kaveri Dry Engine with this new AB.
In this context, do note there were reports a few months back, that Godrej has already delivered a few Kaveri dry engines.

2) A new Fan was developed recently, and this new Fan when integrated with the already developed dry Kaveri, is producing 51KN dry thrust.
Again in this context, recall that the dry Kaveri version that was taken to Gromov Test Center, for high Altitude testing, had achieved 48.5KN dry thrust (expectation was 46KN).
Also remember, dev of this new Fan was reported, albeit completely disjointly, about an year or so back (will have to dig out that ref).

Bro... Any news about vibration during AB...

Vibration during AB was a primary concern and this is the reason we went for dry Kaveri...

Assuming Brahmos Aerospace fixes vibration during reheat and the there are no new issues with the fan... Can we start the twin engine aircraft testing!? Or Am I missing something other issues in Kaveri...

If the Kaveri and MiG 29 integration starts by Mid 2025, how long the testing process will be and will we Kaveri in MK1A? I understand that engine cowling and all that needs to be changed, but can we see it in at least in the last batch of MK1A delivery?? I just want some poetic ending to Tejas and Kaveri Saga.

[Yagnasri]

As far as I know, the vibrations and sound problems have already been addressed.

[SRajesh]

Photoshopped - but what is the buzz is that it is probably close to being mounted on a twin engine jet. RM visiting Russ...

https://x.com/SJha1618/status/1862877483504370160 ---> The Indian defence minister's forthcoming visit to Russia is probably going to be the most significant one in years.

Rakesh:
RM visiting Rus.
Putin coming to India
Trump starting Jan 20th
EAM saying trade will hit 100 billion with RUS
Something big is being cooked!
Or are we being too hasty in calculations!!

[Manish_P]

https://x.com/SJha1618/status/1862877483504370160 ---> The Indian defence minister's forthcoming visit to Russia is probably going to be the most significant one in years.

...
Something big is being cooked!
...

Or/and something stealthy

[drnayar]

...
Something big is being cooked!
...

Or/and something stealthy

Chakra 3

[maitya]

X-posting from Military Acquisitions thread ...

Russia, India and Jet Engine



- the usual preamble about how we don't yet have an engine for our Tejas jets
- some of our key existing jets depend on Russian engines
- seeking to manufacture improved versions of those engines
- Rajnath visiting Russia, may discuss those engines, nothing to do with Tejas

Precious little has been disclosed about the recently unveiled AL-31FN Series 5 engine - apart from wide-chord blade based Fan (no big deal wrt our current indigenous capability) and that 70% part commonality with AL-31FP (and other AL-31 legacy variants).

So, except for an enhanced thrust-level, not much to infer about anything i.e. this enhanced thrust must be from the bypass mass-flow (lighter Fan etc) component - which, for a relatively higher bypass design (~0.5 BPR), will not be a good news for hot-and-high situations here.
Instead, my hunch is, we are better served by allowing unrestricted "freedom" (wrt overall engine warranty applicability) to bring-in improved "indigenous parts" for the hot-section (and maybe for the cold sections as well).

But then again, I think the devil lies in the details - there's no guarantee that Russia would be agreeable to same-level-of-ToT for the AL-31FN series 5 mfg, as it did for AL-31FP.

Betw, we do Lic Mfg RD-33MK variant as well (in addition to RD-33 Series 3), so the Alpha defense report got that aspect slightly wrong.

[sanjayc]

Just wondering if GTRE creating a joint venture with ISRO to develop Kaveri would be a good idea

[pravula]

Just wondering if GTRE creating a joint venture with ISRO to develop Kaveri would be a good idea

No. It would be a good idea for GTRE to buy an old TU-22. We don't need Kaveri to go into space.

We need a test plane that can run supersonic, with redundant engines. With its huge bay, we can rig up a system to run the engine at speed, as long as it can be deployed and retracted.

[csaurabh]

I was watching one of the defence youtube channels where they said that Kaveri is now performing almost same as GE404 engine, it's just 150 kg heavier.

If this is true then we should straight up ditch F404 and use Kaveri. The Tejas has almost 10,000 kg of fuel+weapons carrying capacity. You can easily sacrifice a little bit of that and have the indigenous, albeit heavier engine. Does no one see the obvious solution ?

[williams]

I was watching one of the defence youtube channels where they said that Kaveri is now performing almost same as GE404 engine, it's just 150 kg heavier.

If this is true then we should straight up ditch F404 and use Kaveri. The Tejas has almost 10,000 kg of fuel+weapons carrying capacity. You can easily sacrifice a little bit of that and have the indigenous, albeit heavier engine. Does no one see the obvious solution ?

You are comparing an engine that is still under development to something that has been used by many fighters today. Also F-404 has been through incremental improvements from the 80s. IMO, there is no option right now other than running Tejas M !/1A with F-404s or an equivalent off the shelf engine. If we continue to develop Kaveri seriously and then figure out a way to mass manufacture them with reliability, perhaps we can think of them as a replacement engine later in the life cycle of these aircrafts. To start with, we need a reliable flying test bed to run these in real life conditions and make improvements as we observe its performance parameters. Also we need a thrust-to-weight ratio of at least > 1 to make it a viable engine. I would say we are still a decade away if we start with what we have today. It should be a national mission like IGMDP to develop various classes of supersonic turbofans. I hope somebody shows the leadership to start something like that.