Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

[Rakesh]

The Akash SAM reloading vehicle.

Source of Image?

[srai]

Images nowadays can be easily found by Googling. You can find the same image under many sites.

[Rakesh]

Images nowadays can be easily found by Googling. You can find the same image under many sites.

I know. But poster has to put image source, for acknowledgement.

[mody]

RFI issued for 1,500 Launchers and 20,000 ATGMs for IA, under IDDM with minimum 60% indigenous content. Range upto 4kms.

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/India/go ... 0e50&ei=14

[A Deshmukh]

"We are doing very well on the missiles front", really. And what have we actually inducted in substantial number. That is where the boot meets the road, and where optimism confronts brutal reality.

Fact is apart from a couple of tactical systems, we are badly lagging in magazine depth as it is a function of both AF prioritisation (and they choose emergency imports) and budgets (which are limited).

post from previous page of this thread
To summarize from your post
Cat (A)
Akash: in good shape - deployed in numbers. new variants making progress.
Astra: in good shape - orders placed, new variants making good progress.
Pinaka: in good shape - deployed in numbers, new variants making progress.
Brahmos: in good shape - deployed in numbers
Agni/K5/K15: in place

Cat (B)
Rudram: made some good progress, bulk orders awaited.
Nag/Helina/Dhurvastra/SANT: making progress, bulk orders awaited.
SAMs - LRSAM, QRSAM, MRSAM, VSHORADs: making progress, bulk orders awaited.
CMs - Nirbhay, LRLACM, - still under development.
and few more.

We may choose to be unhappy, because orders particularly category (B) are still in trickle, and we were expecting in bulk.
or choose to be happy as there is no threat of imported missiles in these categories.

I am in the second bucket. not in lungi dance moment, but quietly satisfied with the way these projects are making progress.

reasoning - there were projects in pre-2014 era - MRSAM, VSHORAD - multi-billion $ completely imported projects under emergency buys!
those have been silently scrapped.
and Govt has shown it is willing to spend money - $Bs in nuclear submarines, Satellites, etc.
now its for the armed forces to push for their requirements as per their priorities.

my thinking, when ordering in large numbers, armed forces have to allocate % of $s for that order. they want to avoid committing large amounts of $s.
armed forces know the quantities they need. industry also knows. so the wheels will move in that direction. slow first and then at speed.
ex:
RFI for 20,000 ATGMs under IDDM MSN link

[Rakesh]

India to develop new missile testing range on east Coast, CCS gives approval
https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 013200149/
13 Oct 2024

[vonkabra]

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... s?from=mdr

Still not clear on what was the "unfaithful accident"...

[Karan M]

"We are doing very well on the missiles front", really. And what have we actually inducted in substantial number. That is where the boot meets the road, and where optimism confronts brutal reality.

Fact is apart from a couple of tactical systems, we are badly lagging in magazine depth as it is a function of both AF prioritisation (and they choose emergency imports) and budgets (which are limited).

post from previous page of this thread
To summarize from your post
Cat (A)
Akash: in good shape - deployed in numbers. new variants making progress.
Astra: in good shape - orders placed, new variants making good progress.
Pinaka: in good shape - deployed in numbers, new variants making progress.
Brahmos: in good shape - deployed in numbers
Agni/K5/K15: in place

Cat (B)
Rudram: made some good progress, bulk orders awaited.
Nag/Helina/Dhurvastra/SANT: making progress, bulk orders awaited.
SAMs - LRSAM, QRSAM, MRSAM, VSHORADs: making progress, bulk orders awaited.
CMs - Nirbhay, LRLACM, - still under development.
and few more.

We may choose to be unhappy, because orders particularly category (B) are still in trickle, and we were expecting in bulk.
or choose to be happy as there is no threat of imported missiles in these categories.

I am in the second bucket. not in lungi dance moment, but quietly satisfied with the way these projects are making progress.

reasoning - there were projects in pre-2014 era - MRSAM, VSHORAD - multi-billion $ completely imported projects under emergency buys!
those have been silently scrapped.
and Govt has shown it is willing to spend money - $Bs in nuclear submarines, Satellites, etc.
now its for the armed forces to push for their requirements as per their priorities.

my thinking, when ordering in large numbers, armed forces have to allocate % of $s for that order. they want to avoid committing large amounts of $s.
armed forces know the quantities they need. industry also knows. so the wheels will move in that direction. slow first and then at speed.
ex:
RFI for 20,000 ATGMs under IDDM MSN link

I mean you are ignoring the obvious. Optimism needs to be tempered with the actual situation in place. The obvious issue is that orders are too few and actual mass production is far away. Apart from a couple of the systems, none of the above are in mass production in the numbers we need.

Meanwhile budget is too low to place mass orders or accelerate R&D. This is not an ideal place to be in when we are in a crisis situation already.

[Nikhil_Naya]

Paanwallah alert
- Next month going to be a critical month for a Manik powered system test for full range.
- The ER-AAM test is also going to happen soon.
couple of other mijjile and rocket tests planned but paanwaalah didnt have more to say.
Hoping for the best for some mission critical tests!

[Ashokk]

https://x.com/detresfa_/status/18529721 ... 67/photo/1

#AreaWarning #India issues a notification for a likely Navy related missile test in the Bay of Bengal region
Date | 06-07 November 2024

[Ashokk]

https://x.com/detresfa_/status/1855195889150939486

#AreaWarning #India issues a notification for a likely Navy related missile test in the Bay of Bengal region

Date | 15-17 November 2024

[basant]

India set to test over 1,000 km strike range anti-ship ballistic missile

At a time when defence forces are looking at creating a rocket force, India is all set to soon test fire a new long-range anti-ship ballistic missile which would be able to hit moving warships or aircraft carriers at distances of over 1,000 kms.

The ballistic missile is expected to be tested in the next few days by the Defence Research and Development Organisation, defence sources told ANI.
...

[drnayar]

And that with the SMART torpedoes along the Indian island bases could well take care of the Chinese carrier fleets

[a_bharat]

A noob question: why combine ballistic missile and torpedo? can a smaller cruise missile be used as a payload of a ballistic missile, with the ballistic missile releasing the cruise missile in the end phase? Are there any such missiles? I understand usage of torpedoes against submarines, but for anti-ship role isn't a cruise missile better?

[pravula]

Cheaper to use ballistic booster than a hypersonic. Faster to use a ballistic booster than a subsonic cruise. Torpedoes can be used to target both surface and subsurface combatants.

[A Deshmukh]

A noob question: why combine ballistic missile and torpedo? can a smaller cruise missile be used as a payload of a ballistic missile, with the ballistic missile releasing the cruise missile in the end phase?

Some counter arguments:
Torpedo hits under water level. this will be more fatal with water ingress.
Cruise missile can brought down by anti-aircraft guns.

The ballistic missile/booster speed and height both are high. cruise missile payload will not be able to sustain burn at that high speed.
Also the height will not have enough oxygen to sustain a cruise burn, at hypersonic speeds.

Can it be slowed down and brought down using some techniques? idea worth trying out.
Can also think of a glide bomb with homing device as a payload to ballistic booster. This could be cheaper.

There could be various variations for this.

[Haridas]

A noob question: why combine ballistic missile and torpedo? can a smaller cruise missile be used as a payload of a ballistic missile, with the ballistic missile releasing the cruise missile in the end phase? Are there any such missiles? I understand usage of torpedoes against submarines, but for anti-ship role isn't a cruise missile better?

1. Torpedo means it's target is submarine or ships. Ship can be more easily hit by missile. Submarine can't.
2. Ballistic missile torpedo is much more effective compared to cruise mijjile because OODA loop is much faster. Plus the probability of projecting correct location of target dramatically worsens as time between detection and interception increases. So if P8i or some other passive dection system, locates a hostile Submarine and gets its velocity vector, a torpedo must be released say within 20km of kill box.

The kill box size grows big time if kill vehicle will arrive an hour later (say CM flying at 900kmph). Contrast that with fast parachuting of torpedo delivered by ballistic missile flying in at 10,000 kmph in less than 6 minutes.

[Manish_P]

...
Can also think of a glide bomb with homing device as a payload to ballistic booster. This could be cheaper.

There could be various variations for this.

+1

Need to make it modular to accept different payloads - Torpedoes, Glide Bombs, Smart Bombs (like the recently showcased US anti-ship JDAM)

If they can be bolt on, like attachments on a warplanes weapon pylons, even more flexible and potent

[Manish_P]

And that with the SMART torpedoes along the Indian island bases could well take care of the Chinese carrier fleets

+1

However need to remember that carrier fleets have air defense bubbles spread over a radius of hundreds of kms.

So our tracking platforms need to be stealthy, powerful (with very long range sensors), long endurance/persistence, multi-dimensional (UAVs, LRMP aircraft, Ships, Subs, USVs, SOSUS net) with extremely good robust, inter-networking capabilities

[a_bharat]

Thank you all for the answers. I understand the case of ballistic missile + torpedo against submarines. Can Ballistic missile + Glide/Smart bombs mentioned by Manish_P above defeat ship's air defences and hit the target? All of these (glide/smart bombs or torpedoes) are slow moving. For anti-ship role, do torpedoes have higher probability of hitting the target ship compared to glide/smart bombs released by a ballistic missile?

Also, is it useful to have a bunch of small drones with powerful explosives as a payload for a ballistic missile?

[Manish_P]

...Can Ballistic missile + Glide/Smart bombs mentioned by Manish_P above defeat ship's air defences and hit the target? All of these (glide/smart bombs or torpedoes) are slow moving.
...

Large heavily armed destroyers or ACs are not the only targets.

The US for eg is going to use the comparatively cheap anti-ship JDAM type bomb for use against smaller vessels used in Recce, patrol, logistics supply etc.

It is also said to be designed to take out the hundreds of decoy ships China is said to have built to overwhelm and clutter up the US sensors and draw fire at themselves.

The disadvantage of the US system is that the launch platforms are aircraft which need to get close.

Think of the SMART as not just a weapon but as a delivery platform. It then transforms into a very potent assymetrical weapon when we are at a large numerical disadvantage facing a manufacturing powerhouse like China.

[drnayar]

And that with the SMART torpedoes along the Indian island bases could well take care of the Chinese carrier fleets

+1

However need to remember that carrier fleets have air defense bubbles spread over a radius of hundreds of kms.

So our tracking platforms need to be stealthy, powerful (with very long range sensors), long endurance/persistence, multi-dimensional (UAVs, LRMP aircraft, Ships, Subs, USVs, SOSUS net) with extremely good robust, inter-networking capabilities

indeed , imagine a salvo of 20 of these quasi ballistic missiles and 50 of the SMART torpedos on a PLAN fleet, even if half are shot down .. they would lose half their fleet !

also imagine an equal number raining in from both the island bases and the mainland

[pravula]

Thank you all for the answers. I understand the case of ballistic missile + torpedo against submarines. Can Ballistic missile + Glide/Smart bombs mentioned by Manish_P above defeat ship's air defences and hit the target? All of these (glide/smart bombs or torpedoes) are slow moving. For anti-ship role, do torpedoes have higher probability of hitting the target ship compared to glide/smart bombs released by a ballistic missile?

Also, is it useful to have a bunch of small drones with powerful explosives as a payload for a ballistic missile?

GLSDB. It was apparently tested in Ukraine.

[nash]

VIDEO: https://x.com/i/status/1856335886440608233 ---> Maiden flight-test of Long Range Land Attack Cruise Missile (LRLACM) was conducted today from the Integrated Test Range (ITR), Chandipur off the coast of Odisha. During the test, all sub-systems performed as per expectation and met the primary mission objectives.

https://x.com/delhidefence/status/1856334990109487629 ---> DRDO conducts maiden flight-test of Long Range Land Attack Cruise Missile (LRACM) off Odisha coast on November 12, 2024 from a mobile articulated launcher. The missile followed the desired path using way point navigation and demonstrated its capability to perform various manoeuvres.

[Rakesh]

VIDEO: https://x.com/delhidefence/status/1856334990109487629 ---> DRDO conducts maiden flight-test of Long Range Land Attack Cruise Missile (LRACM) off Odisha coast on November 12, 2024 from a mobile articulated launcher. The missile followed the desired path using way point navigation and demonstrated its capability to perform various manoeuvres.

VIDEO: https://x.com/reach_defence/status/1856330609477439799 ---> DRDO_India has tested Long Range Land Attack Cruise Missile from ITR Chandipur.

This is a HUGE win for 2 key areas:

- Long Range Cruise Missiles - inventory will now start stockpiling. We have the technology.

- Small Turbofan Engines - GTRE has won.

[Rakesh]

India set to test over 1,000 km strike range anti-ship ballistic missile
https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 110194006/
10 Nov 2024

[Rakesh]

VIDEO: https://x.com/delhidefence/status/1856334990109487629 ---> DRDO conducts maiden flight-test of Long Range Land Attack Cruise Missile (LRACM) off Odisha coast on November 12, 2024 from a mobile articulated launcher. The missile followed the desired path using way point navigation and demonstrated its capability to perform various manoeuvres.

https://x.com/rv_srivatsa/status/1856331596250382583 ---> Historic! GTRE has just delivered a major, fully indigenous product to production. Cannot state this more. It should use this to push for more funds.

While BATL maintains a 12 STFE / year rate of production. This can easily scale in multiples, by distribution.

[A Deshmukh]

VIDEO: https://x.com/i/status/1856335886440608233 ---> During the test, all sub-systems performed as per expectation and met the primary mission objectives.

https://x.com/delhidefence/status/1856334990109487629 ---> from a mobile articulated launcher. The missile followed the desired path using way point navigation and demonstrated its capability to perform various manoeuvres.

from these tweets, deciphering the DRDOspeak:

• all sub-systems performed as expectation: means overall system did not perform. not good

• from a mobile articulated launcher: good

• The missile followed the desired path using way point navigation and demonstrated its capability to perform various manoeuvres.: manoeuvres look good, does not look like it hit the target accurately.

Overall, some technologies performed, some did not.
Any systems take good amount of effort to develop and multiple rounds of testing iterations and improvements. So these efforts are appreciated.
But its not yet a lungi-dance moment till development trials are still going on.
iirc, Nirbhay first testing was about 12 years ago. Development and testing needs to be accelerated.

[mody]

VIDEO: https://x.com/i/status/1856335886440608233 ---> During the test, all sub-systems performed as per expectation and met the primary mission objectives.

https://x.com/delhidefence/status/1856334990109487629 ---> from a mobile articulated launcher. The missile followed the desired path using way point navigation and demonstrated its capability to perform various manoeuvres.

from these tweets, deciphering the DRDOspeak:

• all sub-systems performed as expectation: means overall system did not perform. not good

• from a mobile articulated launcher: good

• The missile followed the desired path using way point navigation and demonstrated its capability to perform various manoeuvres.: manoeuvres look good, does not look like it hit the target accurately.

Overall, some technologies performed, some did not.
Any systems take good amount of effort to develop and multiple rounds of testing iterations and improvements. So these efforts are appreciated.
But its not yet a lungi-dance moment till development trials are still going on.
iirc, Nirbhay first testing was about 12 years ago. Development and testing needs to be accelerated.

Another point worth mentioning are the words 'Met all primary objectives'. It did not say met all the objectives or met all testing parameters etc. The primary objective met have been to test the missile with the Manik engine to its full range. Which seems to have worked.
Will have to wait for some more details.

[mody]

Paanwallah alert
- Next month going to be a critical month for a Manik powered system test for full range.
- The ER-AAM test is also going to happen soon.
couple of other mijjile and rocket tests planned but paanwaalah didnt have more to say.
Hoping for the best for some mission critical tests!

Your paanwala info has come good!!! Say thanks to paanwala on behalf of the BR jingoes.
Is Nikhil_Naya == Nikhil purana?

[mody]

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/India/wh ... b043&ei=14

Some good information on the Akash Teer system being deployed across the country.

[Nikhil_Naya]

Paanwallah alert
- Next month going to be a critical month for a Manik powered system test for full range.
- The ER-AAM test is also going to happen soon.
couple of other mijjile and rocket tests planned but paanwaalah didnt have more to say.
Hoping for the best for some mission critical tests!

Your paanwala info has come good!!! Say thanks to paanwala on behalf of the BR jingoes.
Is Nikhil_Naya == Nikhil purana?

Yes Sir, kaafi purana (old account had to be shut).

Some good initial info has come on the recent test. But waiting to confirm the news. All I can say is that the speculation that all didn't go well (a couple of posts earlier) is misinterpreted. The overall test was at full range, multi waypoint, splashpoint was monitored. Manik performed well, GNSS worked well, being a LACM, it didn't fly 'sea level'. There is some aerodynamic changes (I had posted about it earlier as well).
An interesting tid bit is also there but will wait for official confirmation.
All I can say is this will be a gamechanger in our defence space.

[srai]

VIDEO: https://x.com/delhidefence/status/1856334990109487629 ---> DRDO conducts maiden flight-test of Long Range Land Attack Cruise Missile (LRACM) off Odisha coast on November 12, 2024 from a mobile articulated launcher. The missile followed the desired path using way point navigation and demonstrated its capability to perform various manoeuvres.

https://x.com/rv_srivatsa/status/1856331596250382583 ---> Historic! GTRE has just delivered a major, fully indigenous product to production. Cannot state this more. It should use this to push for more funds.

While BATL maintains a 12 STFE / year rate of production. This can easily scale in multiples, by distribution.

GTRE should continue to target “lower end” engines like one-off engines for cruise missiles and other single/multi-use drones. These are relatively simple and autonomous. Can be fast tracked and mass produced cheaply.

Revenue generated from these would then fund R&D of Kaveri and other more complex engines. Budget-cut proof.

[Karan M]

VIDEO: https://x.com/i/status/1856335886440608233 ---> During the test, all sub-systems performed as per expectation and met the primary mission objectives.

https://x.com/delhidefence/status/1856334990109487629 ---> from a mobile articulated launcher. The missile followed the desired path using way point navigation and demonstrated its capability to perform various manoeuvres.

from these tweets, deciphering the DRDOspeak:

• all sub-systems performed as expectation: means overall system did not perform. not good

• from a mobile articulated launcher: good

• The missile followed the desired path using way point navigation and demonstrated its capability to perform various manoeuvres.: manoeuvres look good, does not look like it hit the target accurately.

Overall, some technologies performed, some did not.
Any systems take good amount of effort to develop and multiple rounds of testing iterations and improvements. So these efforts are appreciated.
But its not yet a lungi-dance moment till development trials are still going on.
iirc, Nirbhay first testing was about 12 years ago. Development and testing needs to be accelerated.

You guys are just making a mountain out of a molehill. All subsystems comment means new subsystems were involved and tested and functioned.

Waypoint navigation is important for a cruise missile. It was what was tested and went well.


Please don't spread doubt without any real confirmation of the details.

[Karan M]

Your paanwala info has come good!!! Say thanks to paanwala on behalf of the BR jingoes.
Is Nikhil_Naya == Nikhil purana?

Yes Sir, kaafi purana (old account had to be shut).

Some good initial info has come on the recent test. But waiting to confirm the news. All I can say is that the speculation that all didn't go well (a couple of posts earlier) is misinterpreted. The overall test was at full range, multi waypoint, splashpoint was monitored. Manik performed well, GNSS worked well, being a LACM, it didn't fly 'sea level'. There is some aerodynamic changes (I had posted about it earlier as well).
An interesting tid bit is also there but will wait for official confirmation.
All I can say is this will be a gamechanger in our defence space.

Precisely. All inaccurate interpretation above which youve corrected. DRDO is very clear about what it says. No need to engage in double think.

[wig]

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/India/in ... 6be1&ei=37
India Successfully Test-Fires Pinaka Weapon System: Fires 12 Rockets In 44 Seconds;
excerpts

"During these tests, the PSQR parameters viz., ranging, accuracy, consistency and rate of fire for multiple target engagement in a salvo mode have been assessed by extensive testing of rockets," read the statement.

The Ministry of Defence confirmed that a total of twelve rockets were tested using two in-service Pinaka launchers, which had been upgraded by the launcher production agencies.

"The precision strike variant for Pinaka Multiple Launch Rocket System is a totally indigenous weapon system designed and developed by Armament Research and Development Establishment in association with Research Centre Imarat, Defence Research and Development Laboratory, High Energy Materials Research Laboratory and Proof & Experimental Establishment with Munitions India Limited and Economic Explosives Limited as production agencies for ammunition and Tata Advanced Systems Limited and Larsen & Toubro for Pinaka launcher and Battery Command Post

Pinaka

- The multi-barrel rocket system Pinaka has two pods, with each battery consisting of six launch vehicles.

- It can fire all 12 rockets in salvo mode in just 44 seconds, with a rocket launched every 4 seconds.

- The loader system, radar, and network-based systems are all interconnected with a command post.

- Currently, there are two types of this system. The first is Mark I, with a range of 40 kilometers, and the second is Mark II, with a range of 75 kilometers.

[ernest]

RM has confirmed the test of LRAshBM, with BGV. It reminds me of Prithvi, and graphs from Arun_s
https://x.com/DefenceMinIndia/status/18 ... 2453983543

[A Deshmukh]

I think LRAShM and Hypersonic missiles are different.
LRAShM would be a sub-sonic cruise missile, with waypoint navigation. There are previous multiple tests.
yesterday's test is hypersonic missile!!. that too 1500km! This is first time this is tested. hypersonic & 1500km ...Wow!!

[Indrajit]

India successfully tests hypersonic anti-ship ballistic missile.

https://youtube.com/shorts/lioeE4TlJb0? ... yK8j4UCvBF

[Cyrano]

Sudarshana chakra on top of the missile?!

Congratulations to all involved!