Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

[williams]

Good plan, but how will GE get hold of so many used engines?

[fanne]

Yup if they can somehow get used f404 ( earlier version thrust is 71.2 kn compared to 85kn of f404 in 20 and proposed current Kaveri thrust of 75kn). The used ones, depending on the version will be adequate to get the aircraft’s rolling out, may not be sufficient in combat situation. So hopefully there is no war in 2-3 years and then we have ge supplied in20.
How much will these cost? Who will pay for it? Does it take away money from current Kaveri d&d?

[ashishvikas]

Engine Specifications

F404-GE-102/103/402
F404-IN20

Thrust Class
17,700 lb
19,000 lb
Length
154 in
154 in
Maximum diameter
35 in
35 in
Airflow
146 lb/sec
153 lb/sec
Pressure Ratio
26:1
28:1

https://www.geaerospace.com/military-de ... gines/f404

[fanne]

Coming back to ghatak. Ghatak fbw will get/ is getting qualified in swift. It will still need to be qualified on Ghatak. Make an engine test variants of Ghatak (say 5-7 in number). If required have fin and rudder for more control. Qualify that design with adour engine (half the weight and thrust of Kaveri). Once it can fly safely, swap the engine out with Kaveri. The fitment of this test bed have to be for Kaveri. Adour engine fitment have to be done through jugaad. Then use these 5-6 planes to qualify Kaveri, later Ganga or Narmada or all engines. Vary Ghatak size (not shape) if required for engine, like maybe bigger if we ever graduate to producing al31 size engine in house.
For people jumping the gun, the Ghatak program in the meantime continues in parallel and separate from the engine testing effort. The Ghatak used for engine qual
Should be and must be vastly different from Ghatak program that gives us a stealth ucav. The Ghatak for engine testing is compensating for lack of flying test bed. No one is willing to give us one, us went back on the promise (as an offset for earlier program, was not for m777?). The chest beating that people do on why GOI not giving money for flying test bed, money is not an issue, who will change it? Our A320 based awacs is also stuck because of this. They money asked for converting these planes by oem is insane.to

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/rahulsinghx/status/1871786909405737130 ---> HAL set to begin critical trials on the LCA Mk-1A, involving the the indigenous Astra BVR missile, the EW suite & the Israeli Elta radar, as it now targets a March 31 deadline to deliver the 1st fighter to the IAF.

[fanne]

So was the delay because of delay at HAL end to certify new capability (and engine delay had nothing to do with it)
Or
Because of the engine delay, HAL decided to add more capability to make use of the down time?

[Kanoji]

Coming back to ghatak. Ghatak fbw will get/ is getting qualified in swift. It will still need to be qualified on Ghatak. Make an engine test variants of Ghatak (say 5-7 in number). If required have fin and rudder for more control. Qualify that design with adour engine (half the weight and thrust of Kaveri). Once it can fly safely, swap the engine out with Kaveri. The fitment of this test bed have to be for Kaveri. Adour engine fitment have to be done through jugaad. Then use these 5-6 planes to qualify Kaveri, later Ganga or Narmada or all engines. Vary Ghatak size (not shape) if required for engine, like maybe bigger if we ever graduate to producing al31 size engine in house.
For people jumping the gun, the Ghatak program in the meantime continues in parallel and separate from the engine testing effort. The Ghatak used for engine qual
Should be and must be vastly different from Ghatak program that gives us a stealth ucav. The Ghatak for engine testing is compensating for lack of flying test bed. No one is willing to give us one, us went back on the promise (as an offset for earlier program, was not for m777?). The chest beating that people do on why GOI not giving money for flying test bed, money is not an issue, who will change it? Our A320 based awacs is also stuck because of this. They money asked for converting these planes by oem is insane.to

fanne ji,

To my mango man understanding, the approach you have spelt out makes a lot of sense. I would like to confirm if the reason you have provided about the GOI's reluctance to fund a flying test bed is true.
I am not doubting you, just that I have heard this for this first time.

[maitya]

So was the delay because of delay at HAL end to certify new capability (and engine delay had nothing to do with it)
Or
Because of the engine delay, HAL decided to add more capability to make use of the down time?

fanne-ji, I think it's the second - but there are countless brain-dead defence anal-cysts websites, who are trying to propagate the first notion - as they are fully aware HAL, being a PSU, wouldn't even care to counter their narratives anyway.
IMVHO opinion, the full-integration of 2052 with extn-ASPJ etc, and also other software updates, were originally scheduled after the initial lot of deliveries - and in fact, I think, the initial lot were supposedly majorly the twin-seater trainers* anyway (with a very few single-seaters), so as to start establishing the sqns.

With engine delays, all that planning went out of the window - and thus IAF (and not HAL) must have demanded these capabilities be available from the 1st delivered aircrafts (including the single seaters), that are now going to arrive on a delayed schedule - and that's now being spun by the import-pasand, and mostly clueless media, in such a way that the delay gets blamed less on the furrin-OEM and more on the desi agencies (both D&D and Mfg ones).

However what's still baffling is this new-report about "initiating these activities" supposedly from Jan'25 etc - whilst, all along this year, it has been reported multiple times, that exactly those are being worked upon and getting implemented.
Or, maybe, given the clueless nature of these media outlets, what they are actually trying to report was integration of Astra-I (with 2052, RWRs and ASPJ etc) that's going to start from Jan'25, whilst the original integration (and software updates) of Radar/ASPJ/RWRs and other software updates have now been completed.

God only knows, what is the exact status - as neither HAL, nor MoD/IAF is going to publicly state anything. Heck, even the actual number of platforms that have been fully integrated (with Cat-B engines) and are ready, has not been made public.

=========================================================================================================
*Note - Twin seater trainers would be with 2032s (similar to those in Mk1s) - so there are no such thing as "difficulties wrt integrating the ASPJs with the radar etc".

[fanne]

If I were iaf, I would swap out 18 trainer engines out and put them in 18 new mk1a. These will not be cat b. Assumption is that we have engines for these 18, we at least have for 8 of the original trainer from the lot of 40. With cat b (within desh) and some planning, we can get at least 1 sq of mk1a. Additional cat b or engines from ge then can go towards newer planes.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/Iyervval/status/1872955038546698738 --->

[fanne]

Coming back to ghatak. Ghatak fbw will get/ is getting qualified in swift. It will still need to be qualified on Ghatak. Make an engine test variants of Ghatak (say 5-7 in number). If required have fin and rudder for more control. Qualify that design with adour engine (half the weight and thrust of Kaveri). Once it can fly safely, swap the engine out with Kaveri. The fitment of this test bed have to be for Kaveri. Adour engine fitment have to be done through jugaad. Then use these 5-6 planes to qualify Kaveri, later Ganga or Narmada or all engines. Vary Ghatak size (not shape) if required for engine, like maybe bigger if we ever graduate to producing al31 size engine in house.
For people jumping the gun, the Ghatak program in the meantime continues in parallel and separate from the engine testing effort. The Ghatak used for engine qual
Should be and must be vastly different from Ghatak program that gives us a stealth ucav. The Ghatak for engine testing is compensating for lack of flying test bed. No one is willing to give us one, us went back on the promise (as an offset for earlier program, was not for m777?). The chest beating that people do on why GOI not giving money for flying test bed, money is not an issue, who will change it? Our A320 based awacs is also stuck because of this. They money asked for converting these planes by oem is insane.to

fanne ji,

To my mango man understanding, the approach you have spelt out makes a lot of sense. I would like to confirm if the reason you have provided about the GOI's reluctance to fund a flying test bed is true.
I am not doubting you, just that I have heard this for this first time

No inside knowledge. Just reading the situation with all available data. One that I did not speculate (because it’s dirty and most probably wrong or so I hope), someone from inside sabotaging it (and the suspect will not be the political class but one of the obvious ones).

[sanman]

shifted to other thread

[Kanoji]

No inside knowledge. Just reading the situation with all available data. One that I did not speculate (because it’s dirty and most probably wrong or so I hope), someone from inside sabotaging it (and the suspect will not be the political class but one of the obvious ones).

Thank you.

[Manish_P]

Forget Tejas and go with something newer?...

'Forget' ?!?

Well it is a simple word isn't it

[RCase]

https://x.com/rahulsinghx/status/1871786909405737130 ---> HAL set to begin critical trials on the LCA Mk-1A, involving the the indigenous Astra BVR missile, the EW suite & the Israeli Elta radar, as it now targets a March 31 deadline to deliver the 1st fighter to the IAF.

(Snipped out the HT article ... )

Per the article, the IAF made up its mind only in 2021 to place an order and are now cribbing about delays. What the hell were they doing for so many years in not making decisions to build up fleet strength? How come they did not have any contingency plans for potential delays? Even if they were to buy imported planes, the lead time for delivery would still place them in the same situation. I am not sure if they even thought about risk mitigation due to imported engines. It is quite disconcerting to think that IAF planners have such a dismal record with aircraft acquisition. Should that also be a cause of concern about their overall planning for other contingencies?

[Kartik]

If I were iaf, I would swap out 18 trainer engines out and put them in 18 new mk1a. These will not be cat b. Assumption is that we have engines for these 18, we at least have for 8 of the original trainer from the lot of 40. With cat b (within desh) and some planning, we can get at least 1 sq of mk1a. Additional cat b or engines from ge then can go towards newer planes.

Since when did the IAF get 18 LCA trainers? They have 6-7 out of the 8 Tejas Mk1 trainers that HAL was supposed to deliver to the IAF as part of the IOC and FOC contracts.

The remaining 10 Tejas trainers out of the 83 Tejas Mk1A order haven't yet been built or delivered.

[fanne]

The interim plan was to build all 18 together after 32 ioc/foc Tejas and before the start of mk1a. The time would be now, if they are not delayed, all 18 trainers should be built by now.

[fanne]

Or ready to be corrected

[srai]

HAL is thinking about further annual capacity at Nashik.
Bangalore (already in place)-> 8+8
Nashik -> 8 (fully ready by 2025-26) + 8 (further expansion possible)

Total annual fighter production capacity: 32

Note: HAL helicopter production capacity will be 90/year when Tumkuru facility fully built up.



In the video, you can see all the Tejas assembly jigs are fully occupied. There are two trainers ready at that particular moment for confirmatory flight testing as part of handover to IAF.

[srai]

^^^
There are very affordable opportunities as a stop gap measure to continue to order more LCA Tejas Mk1 series to address squadron shortages of the IAF until MCA are available for induction.

We are talking about a stop gap mitigation over the next15-years (i.e. until 2040). Drawdown of legacy MCAs are imminent. New MCAs (imported and indigenous) will take time to purchase and then field in numbers.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1874279697909207156 ---> Kaveri Derivative Engine (KDE) aka Kaveri Dry non after burning engine produces 46 kN of thrust (IRA SLS) & weighs max 1,180 kg.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1874279697909207156 ---> Kaveri Derivative Engine (KDE) aka Kaveri Dry non after burning engine produces 46 kN of thrust (IRA SLS) & weighs max 1,180 kg.

https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1874360861940445475 ---> GE claims F404 IN20 which powers Tejas weighs 1072 kg with afterburner & produces 84kN. Non AB version should weigh lower. Note that performance figures are not directly comparable to GTRE ones which are for Indian conditions. It is likely to make bit lower thrust under IRA SLS.

[drnayar]

HAL is thinking about further annual capacity at Nashik.
Bangalore (already in place)-> 8+8
Nashik -> 8 (fully ready by 2025-26) + 8 (further expansion possible)

Total annual fighter production capacity: 32

Note: HAL helicopter production capacity will be 90/year when Tumkuru facility fully built up.

[youtube]sk3xiSjTQtk[/youtube

In the video, you can see all the Tejas assembly jigs are fully occupied. There are two trainers ready at that particular moment for confirmatory flight testing as part of handover to IAF.

No dress code for HAL ?.. interesting. it is professional to look the part of a navaratna org ..but sdre onlee .. private sector firms are better in this regard i suppose

[sajaym]

https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1874360861940445475 ---> GE claims F404 IN20 which powers Tejas weighs 1072 kg with afterburner & produces 84kN.

What I find quite shocking is that during the MMRCA contest there used to be debates where experienced defence professionals and analysts used to warn us against buying US jets as they would come with 'Kill switch' which would prevent us from using those jets in certain scenarios...AND YET...our defence and research establishments went ahead and designed our first indigenous fighter around the biggest frigging kill switch -- a US built engine! And that too even after we had been sanctioned by the US already? How could our people be so stupid?!! Look at the way the US has just grounded our fighters even before a war has started. Are we seriously going to allow them to do this even to the AMCA?

[fanne]

Oh wait after Tejas Mk1A crashing and F414 not coming, there is cry to buy F-21 or F-15EX or maybe even F-35.

[williams]

https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1874360861940445475 ---> GE claims F404 IN20 which powers Tejas weighs 1072 kg with afterburner & produces 84kN.

What I find quite shocking is that during the MMRCA contest there used to be debates where experienced defence professionals and analysts used to warn us against buying US jets as they would come with 'Kill switch' which would prevent us from using those jets in certain scenarios...AND YET...our defence and research establishments went ahead and designed our first indigenous fighter around the biggest frigging kill switch -- a US built engine! And that too even after we had been sanctioned by the US already? How could our people be so stupid?!! Look at the way the US has just grounded our fighters even before a war has started. Are we seriously going to allow them to do this even to the AMCA?

If they really want to screw us, they can implement a satellite based kill switch and possibly put that in the engine FADEC. However, a simple communication jammer will be enough to thwart something like that. Obviously Tejas platforms have much more sophisticated jammer system and so it will be a fools errand if they make such a system and incorporate it in the FADEC. That said why did we choose GE engines for Tejas is a good question. The only answer I could glean from open sources is that GE won the L1 bid. Apparently EJ200 costed 1.5x more than the GE engines.

Right now we are kind of struck. We need to use GE engines and work out our own indigenous engine as we progress. Worse scenario we might consider EJ200 or M88, but that will only further the delay now that we have waited this long. For AMCA it is a different story, we could tweak the CDR and see if we can use an alternative engine. My hope is that we will spend our time and money certifying the existing Kaveri and in parallel work on Kaveri 2.0 and get that ready by the time as we try to fly few of the AMCA PVs. We'll see if Desi teams including the bureaucracy can deliver something like that and completely wean us out from foreign dependency.

[Rakesh]

@ williams: I do not believe the EJ200 would have worked on the Mk1A variant.

[TVenky]

For AMCA it is a different story, we could tweak the CDR and see if we can use an alternative engine.

With AMCA as well, isn't it is too risky to have majority of aircrafts flying 'American' engine ?.
I do not think US will ever become 'trustworthy'. This is my strong conviction. This is very basic and foundational understanding that is required for strategic planning.
Therefore I think, it is not 'could' , it is a 'Must' that we choose alternative engine for AMCA.
We can even be late but cannot commit a sin by choosing American engine. I wish we start alternatives at least 'right away' before it too late.
Once start we can identify opportunities to accelerate the whole R&D to manufacturing in as many ways as possible and as appropriate.

How I wish that we initiated such project at least 2 -3 years ago.

[Manish_P]

@ williams: I do not believe the EJ200 would have worked on the Mk1A variant.

Begging your pardon (and your indulgence) Admiral sir, a very non-engineering and noob question...

Why don't we cut our losses and re-design the other aircrafts (other than the Tejas Mk1/M1A) in the pipe line with non-american engines (the import lobby will keep quiet)- till we get around to making our own.

Yes, i know it might still be a 1-2 decade process - redesign of airframe around the new engine, integration, testing, certification, setting up maintenance infra all will take time ... but haven't we passed the core-competency stages in all the other major areas (airframe, electronics, radar)?

[srai]

^^^

Just get the Mk1A, Mk2 and AMCA Mk1 as planned. Pour resources until complete.

New opportunities will come with Ghatak UCAV, AMCA Mk2 …

[Cain Marko]

@ williams: I do not believe the EJ200 would have worked on the Mk1A variant.

Begging your pardon (and your indulgence) Admiral sir, a very non-engineering and noob question...

Why don't we cut our losses and re-design the other aircrafts (other than the Tejas Mk1/M1A) in the pipe line with non-american engines (the import lobby will keep quiet)- till we get around to making our own.

Yes, i know it might still be a 1-2 decade process - redesign of airframe around the new engine, integration, testing, certification, setting up maintenance infra all will take time ... but haven't we passed the core-competency stages in all the other major areas (airframe, electronics, radar)?

Why should it take 1-2 decades sir unless it is a start from scratch project. We were thinking of using the ej200s when the mk1 was way ahead in development than the current mk2. Ditto with honeywells and jags. This should be a priority consideration for the mk2.

[williams]

Airframe DnD is as much of an art as it is a science. I am not sure how far we are in building the components of AMCA PV right now. You need to go through another cycle of IDR, CDR etc for another year and the cost escalation related to the redesign effort. Best bang for money/time is to focus all the energy on Kaveri 2.0 development and live with GE engines for now.

[Manish_P]

...
Why should it take 1-2 decades sir unless it is a start from scratch project.....

Not an engineer, sir. And accounting for the years taken to consider, sanction, negotiate etc etc. Hence the conservative guesstimate.

[Manish_P]

... Best bang for money/time is to focus all the energy on Kaveri 2.0 development and live with GE engines for now.

Agree. But the force needs the birds in the meantime. Hence the imports, of the engines, being the supplemental (or back up) plan. Both to run concurrently.

[fanne]

How much time a new airframe takes you ask? Let’s see how much time does an improved airframe (Tejas mk2) over older airframe takes (mk1) - it has exactly the same wings (exact, same dimensions). Though the new plane has forewings, slightly elongated length (to provide better area ruling), different ( debatable) air intakes, new engines. It has already taken 5 years and I do not believe many times wrong ADA that it will be ready in 1-2 years. I won’t be surprised if it takes another 5-6 years to certify. Just mk1a has taken 2x ( and may go longer) than what ada/hal had promised.

[williams]

How much time a new airframe takes you ask? Let’s see how much time does an improved airframe (Tejas mk2) over older airframe takes (mk1) - it has exactly the same wings (exact, same dimensions). Though the new plane has forewings, slightly elongated length (to provide better area ruling), different ( debatable) air intakes, new engines. It has already taken 5 years and I do not believe many times wrong ADA that it will be ready in 1-2 years. I won’t be surprised if it takes another 5-6 years to certify. Just mk1a has taken 2x ( and may go longer) than what ada/hal had promised.

Yeah you are right. MK2 took 5 years (2016 - 2021) to come to CDR stage. And that means pouring more resources on our own engine development to replace GE engines is better than going through the exercise of redesigning these birds. However if there is funding (preferably private funding) There could be an effort to design another aircraft within the AMCA family that will rely on a different foreign engine.

[fanne]

But that delay in my very humble opinion is not something to beat DRDO on. R&D by its nature is not predictable. Given funding, manpower, manpower attitude (where we tend to focus, sab chor and alsi hain, maybe true maybe not), infrastructure, support from all stakeholders, politics, sabotage etc. our pace of D&D will be slow. There is no point doing a wishful planning. I think MK2 will not be ready by say 2031, what are the options? Well more LCAMK1a - and that's what we planned, but the sabotage part from the above list screwed the F404.
What we need is 1) continuous funding for critical tech (like kaveri should have been funded) 2) Gradual and more infra build for d&d (these are dead money which may or may not give us money back, and have long gestation period, tough for developing country like us) 3 multiple d&d paths for critical tech (like single crystal blade or better material for engines, or say afterburner like we did with brahmose aero). Have multiple groups work on that. Similarly for HALE and MALE, we have one more lab/group doing D&D given ADE recent record. Or involve parties like TATA (they were interested but wanted to copy paste foreign design) 4) Review every now and then with committees from outside (like of ISRO/BARC/HAL/IAF/Retired personnel/foreign OEM scientist reviewing ADA and GTRE work, they do not have to be expert in it, just scientific minded enough to unearth 'rookie' mistake in time. Apparently there is one happening with air intake of MK2. 5) Have Purva paksha of everything, that means whistleblowers are protected, that means contrarian viewpoint is entertained and then swiftly agreed or rejected, that means the F404 would have never been bought, perhaps it would have been EJ2000 or M88 - 90 KN variant developed. 4) IAF staff study has courses on manufacturing - ordering 3.2 aircraft and the 10 and then 12.8 does not make an industry, order all 23 in one go.
I think they should ask feedback from private sector (limited but SME) on DRDO reforms. I am not one, but there are many who would have turned things around.

[Cain Marko]

...
Why should it take 1-2 decades sir unless it is a start from scratch project.....

Not an engineer, sir. And accounting for the years taken to consider, sanction, negotiate etc etc. Hence the conservative guesstimate.

Seriously, this is not an engineering issue, similar products have been done in faster times. But it is definitely a Management and even more so, a motivation issue.

[srai]

^^^
And sustained funding
And orders

[ashishvikas]

HAL plans fourth assembly line for Tejas jets at Nashik to make up for delivery delay

Read more at: https://www.deccanherald.com/india/hal- ... ay-3349987