Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

[Prem Kumar]

This French Safran deal is about kicking the can down the road. The problem of engine is immediate. Kaveri and its derivatives are absolutely needed by India. Even a slightly underpowered engine is much better than importing engines (which is subject to sanctions). Using incremental improvements it can be scaled up further. Our blighted babus need to sanction in house test bed and aircraft for testing engines. This is minimum requirement if India needs to be independent of Videshi maal. Defence mantriji Rajnath and defence secretary are not in synch with this objective. They are still "hoping" instead of delivering value. Lots of backend deals are what Babus want to make their lives easier and unaccountable. The financial implications are even worse for India.

Far from seeing them as the problem, Modi sees the Civil Services as a solution. He often trusts them more than his ministers. He thinks they will watch his work-ethic and mend their ways

[Kakkaji]

I think the next logical step in the Kaveri program is to come up with an improved Kaveri 2,0 indigenously, with collaboration between GTRE and private companies like Godrej Aerospace, with performance that equals the GE404-IN20. Godrej has already proposed this to the MoD, saying this is more achievable than aiming to match the performance of the GE414.

A substitute for the GE404-IN20 is necessary and has to be ready before the LCA Mk1/Mk1A engines come up for replacement. Over 400 units will be needed during the lifecycle of the LCA Mk1/ Mk1A.

I would venture to say that, simultaneously, the French should be paid to develop a substitute for GE404-IN20 using their M88 core, which they have promised they can do rather quickly.

If both the above projects succeed before the engine replacements are due on LCA Mk1/ Mk1A, then just split the order between the two so that each can have a run of 200+ units.

JMHO

[maitya]

Maitya-ji can correct me if I am wrong, but I doubt (even if we opened the money purse and poured funds into the Kaveri program as of TODAY) that we will have a certified turbofan even after five years. I am more inclined to go with 10 years, but Maitya-ji can provide a more accurate timeline.

In terms of air power, we are staring at a fairly bleak future. The only (short term) viable path forward is the following;

1) Complete the Super Sukhoi upgrade on the current Rambha Fleet
2) Build additional Rambhas (around 40 more). Highly unlikely this will happen, due to the MRFA fiasco.
3) Integrate GE F404 turbofans, as and when they come to the Tejas Mk1A airframes.
ka
Nothing else (incl the MRFA) will arrive in any decent time. The first MRFA will arrive - at minimum - three years after contract signature.

I'm nobody to hazard guesses about the future of indigenous TF D&D, but IMVHO, if FTB, HATF (and upcoming ground based test facilities) and adequate funding is available today,
a) a 4Gen TF of 80-88KN (Kaveri class, the K10) is doable within 5 years
b) a 4Gen TF of 95-100KN (Kaveri+ class) is doable in next 7-8 years
"doable" -> testing completion, certification and production run start

However if we are aiming for 5Gen TF, the TRL level readiness can come by only after 6-7years, so certification and production-ready versions is minm 10+ years away.
That's why a JV with Safran (or whoever) for this is absolutely required - that's the only way to keep the AMCA program risk-free as much as possible.
The only grouse here is, there seems to be no willingness to fund a parallel 5th Gen TF D&D program - which is the only only way to hedge against OEM slowly drifting away to Mfg ToT, something that's not very different (though deeper) from the F414 ToAst deal.
I've given some example scenarios on X.

Similarly, wrt pt b above, the F414 ToAst deal is required for the MK2 program.

=========================================================================================
Added Later: Wrt this parallel 5th Gen TF D&D program, a deep-mfg ToT of
i) the Izdeliya-30/AL-51 via the Su-57 Lic Mfg deal
OR
ii) the XF-9 series, as a Lic Mfg AMCA TF, as backup option wrt the Safran JV Turbofan
or both, would be a very serious accelerator!!

[Rakesh]

HAL’s gas turbine engine project hit by delayed test-bed approvals, says Parliament panel
https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busin ... 22907.html
12 Dec 2025

The Committee cited delays arising from the 'failure to secure critical components on time, due to procurement bottlenecks and delayed approvals for test-bed construction' as well as land clearance issues.

A comprehensive review by the Committee on Public Undertakings (CPU) has flagged persistent delays in Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s (HAL) gas turbine engine development programme, with the panel cautioning that slow approvals for essential testing infrastructure continue to hinder progress. HAL has been developing two aero-engines under its gas turbine engine programme – “a 25 kilo newton engine” for Intermediate Jet Trainer-class aircraft and a turboshaft engine for helicopters – sanctioned for Rs 441.41 crore, but with Stage II “ongoing since 2018 with no completion in sight.” The Committee cited delays arising from the “failure to secure critical components on time, due to procurement bottlenecks and delayed approvals for test-bed construction,” as well as land clearance issues.

The Defence Ministry said material research “is being taken up by DMRL (DRDO) and MIDHANI,” with HAL placing orders of Rs 757.82 crore on MIDHANI. While acknowledging HAL’s efforts to partner with DRDO, MIDHANI and global engine makers, the Committee criticised the absence of a clear roadmap for critical testing infrastructure. “The Ministry’s reply is interim in nature, as the core issue of developing dedicated test-bed infrastructure remains unresolved. The Committee, therefore, desires that the Ministry of Defence expedite this analysis and furnish a definitive action plan, with clear timelines and funding arrangements,” the panel said in its report. The panel emphasised that a “gap analysis…is a critical first step, but it is not the solution itself.”

The Twenty-Sixth Report of the CPU – presented to Parliament in December 2025 and chaired by Baijayant Panda – pulls up the Ministry of Defence (MoD) for failing to resolve long-pending gaps in test-bed facilities crucial for engine certification and development. The Committee comprises senior MPs from both Houses, including Tariq Anwar, Sudip Bandyopadhyay, Kanimozhi Karunanidhi, Milind Deora, John Brittas and Bhagwat Karad.

Indigenisation Goals

The CPU cautioned that unless the Defence Ministry urgently operationalises the long-pending test-bed facility, the programme risks further delays, undermining the government’s Atmanirbhar Bharat plans in strategic aerospace systems. The Committee has asked the Ministry to keep it informed of progress and furnish final action-taken replies expeditiously.

Delayed Approvals

The Committee reiterated concerns first raised in its Tenth Report, which underscored that the engine project had suffered time and cost overruns due to procurement hurdles and administrative delays. “One of the primary reasons for the delay is the failure to secure critical components on time, due to procurement bottlenecks and delayed approvals for test-bed construction,” it noted. It added that “land clearance approvals were delayed due to bureaucratic inefficiencies, adding more than three years to the project timeline.” The prolonged delay has forced HAL to write off Rs 159.23 crore as costs it can no longer recover.

Indigenous Challenges

Responding to the Committee, the Ministry highlighted the complexity of the project, stating, “HAL took up R&D of two engines pro-actively to become self-reliant… The critical components for such an engine are being designed and developed for the first time in the country and there has been a delay from the estimated time in redesigning them.” It further noted that engine technologies remain closely guarded internationally: “Very few countries in the world have matured gas turbine engine manufacturing technology and they do not transfer the complete technology.” HAL has ongoing international partnerships – such as its joint venture SAFHAL with Safran Helicopter Engines – and domestic orders placed on MIDHANI for indigenous raw materials. The Ministry added that “a gap analysis of ground facilities for testing of airborne systems is being carried out.”

[Rakesh]

HAL’s gas turbine engine project hit by delayed test-bed approvals, says Parliament panel
https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busin ... 22907.html
12 Dec 2025

The Ministry added that “a gap analysis of ground facilities for testing of airborne systems is being carried out.”

Via garam chai, piping hot bonda and biskoot sessions. Sab Kuch Teek Hai! History will record this govt having not taken the lead in forcing Atmanirbhar Bharat down the throats of the armed forces and providing the required funding.

MRFA = 25+ billion minimum. Squadron shortage, air force needs planes, there is no Plan B, etc....

Engine Development = No will saar, no money saar, no facilities saar, etc...

[Rakesh]

^^^ But will gleefully do screwdrivergiri on someone else's engine and call it ToT...

India Enters The Fifth-Gen Elite Engine Club: Russia Clears Full Su-57E Izdeliye 177S Tech Transfer
https://zeenews.india.com/world/india-e ... 94204.html
10 Dec 2025

Russia’s approval of the Su-57E Izdeliye 177S engine transfer gives India access to fifth-generation turbine technology, enabling the HAL to manufacture advanced materials and leap forward in next-gen fighter power.