Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

[bala]

^^ Tata is already involved in C295 assembly and L&T is supplying a critical sub-assembled component for Tejas LCA. Bharat Forge may not have aircraft experience.

[ashthor]

Hoping it doesn't goes to the Tata's but to L&T+BEL or BF. Let tata do the screwdrivergiri.

[drnayar]

Breaking news : HAL out of AMCA race

https://m.economictimes.com/news/defenc ... 893595.cms

AMCA fighter jet programme: Tata, L&T, Bharat Forge in fighter jet race; HAL out

Other than the fact that the three shortlisted companies are in the manufacturing domain, none of the three companies shortlisted for AMCA have any experience in fighter aircraft manufacturing.

Is aircraft manufacturing that easy?

I request aero gurus to throw some light on this and the challenges they can expect.

Not a guru but each company has expertise in niche domains, the end manufacturer will likely be a consortium with one player taking lead integration role. I think AMCA will take Indian aircraft manufacturing capability to the next level

[Kanoji]

Not a guru but each company has expertise in niche domains, the end manufacturer will likely be a consortium with one player taking lead integration role. I think AMCA will take Indian aircraft manufacturing capability to the next level

Thank you sir. I hope this approach takes what you have predicted to fruition.

[YashG]

I'm chuckling with disbelief.

I dont know much abt aircraft manufacturing except that I have followed BF for 20 years now. The news to me feels like some kind of joke...

None of these companies are putting in serious money in aircrafts mfg. (All three are serious manufacturers definitely, serious at defence unlike Adani) but aircraft manufacturing is evolution - institutional memory, talent, supplier linkages etc.

How are these three mfg supposed to just jump to a advanced 5th gen mfg ? Unless they will just do screwdrivergiri!
Will they bulk poach HAL engineers ? (possible ..HAL doesnt pay that well) and setup systems from scratch ....

I dont see any way in which they can do AMCA 6-8 years from now...if they dont start setting up manufacturing lines from now.

Is it again the circus show that MoD is so good at doing ? Because the only thing MoD should be doing - procurement planning, MIC evolution - thats one things MoD is not good at.

[Prem Kumar]

The smart move would have been to keep it as 1 pvt player + HAL

I have no love lost for the latter, but this would de-risk the project if things go sideways with the private player

To de-risk further, the pvt player must be given Tejas-Mk2 orders too + MRO work on Tejas-Mk1, so that they cut their teeth

I applaud the spirit behind this move but strip-the-bandaid may not be the right approach for something as complex as AMCA. It can work for light-tanks

[csaurabh]

I'm chuckling with disbelief.

I dont know much abt aircraft manufacturing except that I have followed BF for 20 years now. The news to me feels like some kind of joke...

None of these companies are putting in serious money in aircrafts mfg. (All three are serious manufacturers definitely, serious at defence unlike Adani) but aircraft manufacturing is evolution - institutional memory, talent, supplier linkages etc.

How are these three mfg supposed to just jump to a advanced 5th gen mfg ? Unless they will just do screwdrivergiri!
Will they bulk poach HAL engineers ? (possible ..HAL doesnt pay that well) and setup systems from scratch ....

I dont see any way in which they can do AMCA 6-8 years from now...if they dont start setting up manufacturing lines from now.

Is it again the circus show that MoD is so good at doing ? Because the only thing MoD should be doing - procurement planning, MIC evolution - thats one things MoD is not good at.

I don't see what the concern is ?
These companies are just manufacturing agencies. They are not like Airbus or Dassault. The design of AMCA is done solely by ADA and no one else.
As long as standards and quality are maintained and the parts are manufactured according to the specification, what is the problem exactly. Actually all these companies (like Tata, Dynamatics etc.) are already involved in Tejas and other projects.
For the record, we are in discussions with ADA to make a specific part which will be going on board the AMCA. Do we have 5th gen aircraft manufacturing experience? No. Do we have the capability to make that specific part? Yes.

[YashG]

I'm chuckling with disbelief.

I dont know much abt aircraft manufacturing except that I have followed BF for 20 years now. The news to me feels like some kind of joke...

None of these companies are putting in serious money in aircrafts mfg. (All three are serious manufacturers definitely, serious at defence unlike Adani) but aircraft manufacturing is evolution - institutional memory, talent, supplier linkages etc.

How are these three mfg supposed to just jump to a advanced 5th gen mfg ? Unless they will just do screwdrivergiri!
Will they bulk poach HAL engineers ? (possible ..HAL doesnt pay that well) and setup systems from scratch ....

I dont see any way in which they can do AMCA 6-8 years from now...if they dont start setting up manufacturing lines from now.

Is it again the circus show that MoD is so good at doing ? Because the only thing MoD should be doing - procurement planning, MIC evolution - thats one things MoD is not good at.

I don't see what the concern is ?
These companies are just manufacturing agencies. They are not like Airbus or Dassault. The design of AMCA is done solely by ADA and no one else.
As long as standards and quality are maintained and the parts are manufactured according to the specification, what is the problem exactly. Actually all these companies (like Tata, Dynamatics etc.) are already involved in Tejas and other projects.
For the record, we are in discussions with ADA to make a specific part which will be going on board the AMCA. Do we have 5th gen aircraft manufacturing experience? No. Do we have the capability to make that specific part? Yes.

Concern is these players have not produced fighter aircraft till now...(not counting scredrivergiri)
In order for them to start producing 5th gen aircraft, there needs to be a ramp up - our MoD / System doesnt understand the concept of rampup...like so many ppl say that LCA Mk2 is intermediate stage for AMCA or HCA but MoD/system doesnt get it...(mostly because they dont want to get it)

So without rampup orders, investment...this plan looks not just risky but some kind of smokescreen ...to may be eventually open up way for these players to import kits from somewhere and call it indigenous like for PULS against Pinaka....

It looks very shady...

[bkswarti]

Breaking news : HAL out of AMCA race

https://m.economictimes.com/news/defenc ... 893595.cms

AMCA fighter jet programme: Tata, L&T, Bharat Forge in fighter jet race; HAL out

Best news I have read so far. HAL will never change. They slack off all year and then work use needless overtime hours in Q4 for bonuses. Their chalta hai attitude towards defence is a national threat.

I stand with the government on this

[Khalsa]

Best news ever.
If Necessity was the mother of invention then
competition was the father of improvement and acceleration.

HAL has plenty of cook and bite on.
Tejas Mk1a
Tejas Mk2
Su-30 MKI (attrition replacements)
Su-30 MKI Mark 2 Upgrade
Possibly Su-57 Integration if Not manufacture.

[YashG]

For products readily available in country, tested, in production - like Kalyani artillery or Pinaka or Tata Whap - Govt doesnt want to order...but for non-existent products with non existent aircraft manufacturers , govt wants to plan orders...

It doesnt feel genuine..it looks like playing to a gallery without any real intentions to create production lines in country.

this is like running in wrong direction full speed and then taking a small step in right direction. Its like MoD trying to create atmanirbharta news , all the while they try to kill all atmanirbhar products by same three companies - Artillery, Whap & Light Tank...

[bharathp]

This is like the entry level job fallacy.
Entry level guy can't get a job because he has no experience.

We need to start at some point and allow for faults and mistakes while also trying to pick the most promising candidate to succeed in learning and improving on the job

[uddu]

These are all good reputed companies with decades of experience in defense manufacturing. This will be different from the Reliance winning the bid to build Patrol crafts with no experience. Hopefully they will pull this through. A backup or parallel manufacturing at HAL could also be looked at or some kind of collaboration or support from HAL in any specific area if things go wrong. That door must be open, kind of handholding or sharing best practices etc.
https://x.com/i/status/2018893872609525953
@AdithyaKM_
AMCA program:
- Three firms shortlisted:
TASL
L&T (Partners: BEL & Dynamatic Technologies)
Bharat Forge Ltd (Partners: BEML Ltd & Data Patterns)
- Selection of final winner in 3 months
- 120 jets are expected to be ordered in the first batch, with deliveries expected to start by 2035.
- The number is expected to go up significantly in the coming years as more advanced variants are developed.
https://m.economictimes.com/news/defenc ... 893595.cms
- Can always pour in more money & let consortiums compete rather than select just 1
- HAL seems to have lost out due to large order book?

[YashG]

This is like the entry level job fallacy.
Entry level guy can't get a job because he has no experience.

We need to start at some point and allow for faults and mistakes while also trying to pick the most promising candidate to succeed in learning and improving on the job

Grooming entry level candidates is a good idea, standalone...but not by a company that routinely keeps experienced employees out just to outsource the work to another company from where they maybe able to get some goodies....

Intention is nice standalone but seen in backdrop of keeping the same players waiting for sure-shot requirements makes it shady or disingenuos at best...

[VinodTK]

If the news is true we can say that "There is god in heaven"

• Money will not be an issue for private Co's; and they will not risk shareholder money if they cannot do it

• As for SME's they will hire them from HAL to all over the world, with world class pay to meet their needs

• No bureaucracy of PSU's

• Challenges to overcome will be testing facilities and other unknowns

[Rakesh]

AMCA without HAL: A calculated gamble on private industry

In big development, HAL is out of the AMCA prototype development plan. ThePrint's Editor - Defence and Diplomacy Snehesh Alex Philip explains the significance of this in @DefenceScope.

[Rakesh]

HAL Sidelined, Private Giants Shortlisted for India’s AMCA Stealth Jet
https://www.livefistdefence.com/hal-sid ... ealth-jet/
04 Feb 2026

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/Aryan_warlord/status/2018 ... 49504?s=20 ---> Salient Points:

1) Govt owned @HALHQBLR out of AMCA development plan.
2) @tataadvanced, @BharatForgeLtd and @larsentoubro to compete for ₹15,000 crore order to work with ADA & develop five AMCA prototypes.
3) First batch of AMCA to have 120 aircraft, with delivery planned from 2035.

My Take:

1) @tataadvanced clearly has the advantage here given it's existing aerostructure & aviation electronics expertise. That said @larsentoubro has been making TEJAS wings & other subassemblies for some time now & has significant aviation experience. Indicates the AMCA project will likely follow a similar trajectory as PINAKA & ATAGS before it with two different vendors manufacturing the final approved jet.

2) This clearly points towards an upcoming SU-57E manufacturing facility at @HALHQBLR, the Su-30MKI facilities will need to be repurposed & staff reassigned. That said likely to be more limited than existing Su-30MKI facilities with staff & equipment partially moved towards the Super Sukhoi program.

https://x.com/Aryan_warlord/status/2018 ... 21361?s=20 ---> Both @tataadvanced & @larsentoubro already have large aviation teams.

^Isnt the design for AMCA mostly done?

https://x.com/Aryan_warlord/status/2018 ... 29518?s=20 ---> Development control remains with ADA, the L1 is merely the development & production partner. Essentially unlike ATAGS, there is only one design.

[drnayar]

If the news is true we can say that "There is god in heaven"

• Money will not be an issue for private Co's; and they will not risk shareholder money if they cannot do it

• As for SME's they will hire them from HAL to all over the world, with world class pay to meet their needs

• No bureaucracy of PSU's

• Challenges to overcome will be testing facilities and other unknowns

GOI could step in with a public private sharing partnership for use of facilities and even seed capital at zero interest rates for tooling/ machinery/factories .The private sector will do a better job at attracting the right talent from India and overseas aviation companies.

[drnayar]

These are all good reputed companies with decades of experience in defense manufacturing. This will be different from the Reliance winning the bid to build Patrol crafts with no experience. Hopefully they will pull this through. A backup or parallel manufacturing at HAL could also be looked at or some kind of collaboration or support from HAL in any specific area if things go wrong. That door must be open, kind of handholding or sharing best practices etc.
https://x.com/i/status/2018893872609525953
@AdithyaKM_
AMCA program:
- Three firms shortlisted:
TASL
L&T (Partners: BEL & Dynamatic Technologies)
Bharat Forge Ltd (Partners: BEML Ltd & Data Patterns)
- Selection of final winner in 3 months
- 120 jets are expected to be ordered in the first batch, with deliveries expected to start by 2035.
- The number is expected to go up significantly in the coming years as more advanced variants are developed.
https://m.economictimes.com/news/defenc ... 893595.cms
- Can always pour in more money & let consortiums compete rather than select just 1
- HAL seems to have lost out due to large order book?

Sort of feel L&T or Bharat Forge would be best placed., BF is known to upgrade its skills and manufacturing abilities within a short period and also shown able to recruit the right talent . L&T has deep technological capabilities within its vast conglomerate of tech and mechanical industries.

TASL can do best to focus on transports and it seems mostly screw driver tech

[Khalsa]

This is like the entry level job fallacy.
Entry level guy can't get a job because he has no experience.

We need to start at some point and allow for faults and mistakes while also trying to pick the most promising candidate to succeed in learning and improving on the job

Yes agreed. I remember encountering the same on my first job trying year.
They literally wanted a graduate Engineer with 8 years experience. EFF OFF !!
You can't have a guy in early 20s with nearly a decade of experience and with a salary of a rickshaw wallah.

We need to get started and at this moment, HAL is not teeming with great results story.


Re the point of having never ever seen aircraft much less manufacture.

India in the 50s and 60s observed USA and USSR model and chose the USSR model.
USA - Companies design and build up to 2 X prototypes and compete against SQRs.
USSR - Design Agency Builds the core design as per the SQRs and then offloads to manufacturer - Su ir MiG

ADA and HAL are the USSR equivalents of Design Bureau and MiG.
In the Case of AMCA.... one of the privates replaces the Manufacturing bit since the govt has obviously surveyed and seen the slow moving bits within HAL.

[bala]

This interview with HAL CMD D K Sunil has snippets on AMCA 5 prototype bid but actual production is yet to come by since there is a lot of trials/tests to be done with the prototypes which can take 10 years.

[Cyrano]

Which engine will be used for AMCA? Irrespective of who builds it, engine remains our Achilles heel as long as we get it from outside

[Rakesh]

HAL will do screwdrivergiri on Su-57 and then HAL will be happy.

AMCA manufacturing = Su-57 assembly will become HAL's mantra. Su-57 will come with 100% ToT

https://x.com/AjayshreeSamby3/status/20 ... 94715?s=20 --->

[bala]

These 1 exam wonder people have no vision about Defence for India. Such blah statements with no vision involved, merely regurgitating procedures and dotting the 'i' and crossing the 't' nonsense. More with Vishnu Som and defence secretary:

New S-500s To Tejas Aircrafts: How India Plans The Next Defence Push

[Rakesh]

...

Please click on the edit button in your post above and follow the process on how to post YT videos on BRF. Thank You.

[Rakesh]

What HAL’s exit from AMCA means for the project

In a major shift in India’s defence aviation programme, HAL has been excluded from the AMCA project, opening the door for a private-sector-led approach to developing India’s 5th-generation fighter jet. What prompted this unprecedented move by the Indian Air Force? Is it a question of persistent delays, eroding trust, or HAL being stretched thin with existing commitments? Former IAF fighter pilot Group Captain Ajay Ahlawat offers sharp insights into the thinking within the Air Force in a candid conversation with Consulting Editor Swasti Rao on Worldview with Swasti, unpacking the implications for India’s aerospace future.

[Rakesh]

VIDEO: https://x.com/livefist/status/2020119995867406822?s=20 ---> “Let the process be complete, (then) you’ll know whether HAL is in or out,” says Defence Secretary RK Singh on race to develop & build India’s AMCA stealth fighter.

[S_Madhukar]

HAL will do screwdrivergiri on Su-57 and then HAL will be happy.

AMCA manufacturing = Su-57 assembly will become HAL's mantra. Su-57 will come with 100% ToT

https://x.com/AjayshreeSamby3/status/20 ... 94715?s=20 --->

Some Baki commentators are very happy thinking Su57 should bog down our finances while they wishfully think they get J35

[Khalsa]

I actually think there is merit in giving HAL another order of Su-30 MKI to raise another extra squadron or so and product attrition reserves.
Su-57 must be purchased off the shelf or given to HAL to do some minor integration screw drivergiri.
That will keep them busy along with Tejas Mk2 and Mk1a.

AMCA goes another way. We have gotta stop repeating ourselves in a loop, if not to teach HAL a lesson, then to create more depth of manufacturing in the military industrial complex.

[VinodTK]

I actually think there is merit in giving HAL another order of Su-30 MKI to raise another extra squadron or so and product attrition reserves.
Su-57 must be purchased off the shelf or given to HAL to do some minor integration screw drivergiri.
That will keep them busy along with Tejas Mk2 and Mk1a.

AMCA goes another way. We have gotta stop repeating ourselves in a loop, if not to teach HAL a lesson, then to create more depth of manufacturing in the military industrial complex.

Sir Jee, don't give HAL anything until they deliver 50% of whats on their order books.
Giving work is not charity it is national security

[uddu]

AMCA Fighter Jets Latest News | HAL Under Fire: Perform Or Perish?

In Episode 34 of #CtrlAltDefence, hosts Vishnu Som and Shiv Aroor tackle HAL's high-stakes moment: Private sector giants shortlisted to build AMCA prototypes, sidelining HAL for India's 5th-gen stealth fighter. Can HAL deliver capable Tejas Mk-1As on schedule amid delays and scrutiny? Perform or perish—deep dive now!



https://x.com/Indrani1_Roy/status/2020219693391573280

@Indrani1_Roy
Wonderful episode @ShivAroor and @VishnuNDTV
. You need a Brahma to complete the trinity.

By the way, the sidestick won't be a first on AMCA. It will debut on Tejas Mk2.

In fact, it is already flying on a modified Mk1 trainer loaned back to HAL.

[KSingh]

https://x.com/ksingh_1469/status/202069 ... 90159?s=46 ---> Dassualt I assume has already signalled their Indian partner of choice for this project. And my guess would be TASL (already planned to make Rafale fuselages). So does this mean L&T is the default winner of AMCA prototype contract? Plenty behind the scenes moves.

[Avinandan]

https://x.com/Indrani1_Roy/status/2020219693391573280
By the way, the sidestick won't be a first on AMCA. It will debut on Tejas Mk2.
In fact, it is already flying on a modified Mk1 trainer loaned back to HAL.

Isn't it a bad idea, none of the indian fighters have side-stick.
At least the pilots from Tejas family could interchangeably operate the aircrafts, if all Tejas fighters had center-stick.

Though side-stick has its own advantages especially high-G flight regimes and contributes to better ergonomics, South Korea still opted for Center Stick (similar to F/A-18/ F-15 lineage) by prioritizing pilot familiarity for KF-21 Boramae.

[Khalsa]

I actually think there is merit in giving HAL another order of Su-30 MKI to raise another extra squadron or so and product attrition reserves.
Su-57 must be purchased off the shelf or given to HAL to do some minor integration screw drivergiri.
That will keep them busy along with Tejas Mk2 and Mk1a.

AMCA goes another way. We have gotta stop repeating ourselves in a loop, if not to teach HAL a lesson, then to create more depth of manufacturing in the military industrial complex.

Sir Jee, don't give HAL anything until they deliver 50% of whats on their order books.
Giving work is not charity it is national security

Aligned Vinod Sir.Aligned.
The MIC must have depth in private and public facing sides.

AMCA must be private produced.

[Kartik]

What HAL’s exit from AMCA means for the project

In a major shift in India’s defence aviation programme, HAL has been excluded from the AMCA project, opening the door for a private-sector-led approach to developing India’s 5th-generation fighter jet. What prompted this unprecedented move by the Indian Air Force? Is it a question of persistent delays, eroding trust, or HAL being stretched thin with existing commitments? Former IAF fighter pilot Group Captain Ajay Ahlawat offers sharp insights into the thinking within the Air Force in a candid conversation with Consulting Editor Swasti Rao on Worldview with Swasti, unpacking the implications for India’s aerospace future.

Grp Cpt Ajay Ahlawat makes a very important point that illustrates why the IAF is so suspicious of HAL. The 2 Tejas Mk1 trainers from the first 40 that were ordered have not yet been handed over due to some issues not yet having been resolved, that's what he said in this video. He makes the claim that HAL told the IAF to accept the Mk1 and that all issues would be resolved but these 2 are still not fixed and for that reason haven't been handed over to the IAF.

And that is why the IAF doesn't believe HAL when they say that take the Mk1A and whatever is pending we will fix in the next few months. They've been bitten multiple times by HAL (lethargy, ineptitude, poor planning, whatever) and are playing it safe with the Tejas Mk1A to ensure that HAL fixes all issues and then only delivers.

[Kartik]

https://x.com/ksingh_1469/status/202069 ... 90159?s=46 ---> Dassualt I assume has already signalled their Indian partner of choice for this project. And my guess would be TASL (already planned to make Rafale fuselages). So does this mean L&T is the default winner of AMCA prototype contract? Plenty behind the scenes moves.

On the contrary, it should mean that the deal should go to TASL. The experience building the Rafale fuselage will be invaluable for them, given the very tight tolerances the Rafale is built to. If TASL can supply those fuselages to Dassault itself, they can damn well do the same for the AMCA, which will also have a requirement for very very tight tolerances on its fuselage and wing structures.

[drnayar]

https://x.com/Indrani1_Roy/status/2020219693391573280
By the way, the sidestick won't be a first on AMCA. It will debut on Tejas Mk2.
In fact, it is already flying on a modified Mk1 trainer loaned back to HAL.

Isn't it a bad idea, none of the indian fighters have side-stick.
At least the pilots from Tejas family could interchangeably operate the aircrafts, if all Tejas fighters had center-stick.

Though side-stick has its own advantages especially high-G flight regimes and contributes to better ergonomics, South Korea still opted for Center Stick (similar to F/A-18/ F-15 lineage) by prioritizing pilot familiarity for KF-21 Boramae.

side stick or centre stick.. a couple of ex fighter pilots discuss Su 57 centre stick with F22 side stick @0500.

Fighter Pilots React to SU-57 Felon Engines and Cockpit

Real fighter pilots react to SU-57 Felon Engines and cockpit.

[bala]

Fighter Pilots React to SU-57 Felon Engines and Cockpit

Real fighter pilots react to SU-57 Felon Engines and cockpit.

Notwithstanding the cocky attitude of two US pilots, just going on past history of the fighter plane contest between the Soviets/Russia and US, the match has been quite even, with things like Mig29 and Su-30 planes. Now the F22 is a different thing altogether in terms of stealth and advanced features. Su-57 is getting there, it has all the basic ingredients which require more fine tuning. I am sure both sides have a good clue on the other craft and what it can do. The Ukraine war must have pitted them against each other to probe their limits.

[drnayar]

Fighter Pilots React to SU-57 Felon Engines and Cockpit

Real fighter pilots react to SU-57 Felon Engines and cockpit.

Notwithstanding the cocky attitude of two US pilots, just going on past history of the fighter plane contest between the Soviets/Russia and US, the match has been quite even, with things like Mig29 and Su-30 planes. Now the F22 is a different thing altogether in terms of stealth and advanced features. Su-57 is getting there, it has all the basic ingredients which require more fine tuning. I am sure both sides have a good clue on the other craft and what it can do. The Ukraine war must have pitted them against each other to probe their limits.

It would be a good idea to parse the details of the "evolved" Su 57 .. admittedly this seems to have evolved into a different beast than the one IAF initially encountered .. i presume the Russians may not release the details unless for an export variant