Vayusena & Nausena Rafale: News & Discussion

[Rakesh]

Odds are actually quite high that a follow on deal for Rafale M for the Navy will happen.

The 22 Rafale Ms are for INS Vikrant. The navy wants another batch for IAC-2, which is a follow on Vikrant Class vessel.

The original plan was for 57 MRCBF (Multi Role Carrier Borne Fighter). It was cut down to 26, due to budgetary issues. Now that a Rafale line is being established in India, the navy is pushing for another 31 airframes.

https://x.com/IamRajat_Pandit/status/20 ... 62641?s=20 ---> Well, factual position is that Navy is keen on 31 more Rafale M jets (26 ordered earlier for Rs 63,887 crore to come in 2028-2030). Discussions are underway. Indigenous Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF) not junked. By the time it is ready in 10 years, MiG-29Ks will be retiring.

[bala]

Wow the speed of decision making prior to France's El President visit is something to behold in MoD's corridors.

[Rakesh]

Wow the speed of decision making prior to France's El President visit is something to behold in MoD's corridors.

What we are seeing as speed, has been in the works for *YEARS*

It is just that it is playing out like dominos falling...

[Cain Marko]

Thank you Admiral sir for bringing about a balance in the force. Truly you must be the chosen one.

...

it's all a faarce saar. Yoda mithai leke doda. Sunk the mithai sub in the Arabian sea he did.

[Cain Marko]

Wow the speed of decision making prior to France's El President visit is something to behold in MoD's corridors.

What we are seeing as speed, has been in the works for *YEARS*

It is just that it is playing out like dominos falling...

Yes it's been long in the coming. I just hope it's not too late.

[drnayar]

I know the Rafale is good but with India spending close to 50 billion USD over lifecycle costs , one wonders how much is actually left for indigenous systems ?!

[drnayar]

Odds are actually quite high that a follow on deal for Rafale M for the Navy will happen.

The 22 Rafale Ms are for INS Vikrant. The navy wants another batch for IAC-2, which is a follow on Vikrant Class vessel.

The original plan was for 57 MRCBF (Multi Role Carrier Borne Fighter). It was cut down to 26, due to budgetary issues. Now that a Rafale line is being established in India, the navy is pushing for another 31 airframes.

https://x.com/IamRajat_Pandit/status/20 ... 62641?s=20 ---> Well, factual position is that Navy is keen on 31 more Rafale M jets (26 ordered earlier for Rs 63,887 crore to come in 2028-2030). Discussions are underway. Indigenous Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF) not junked. By the time it is ready in 10 years, MiG-29Ks will be retiring.

Is there really money for Tejas 2 , AMCA ,now tedbf etc ..I was just checking out from Rafale counter and it sort of boggles the mind.

[LakshmanPST]

TEDBF was always considered as replacement of MIG 29Ks and for 3rd Aircraft Carrier...
For INS Vikrant, 57 MCRBF was always the plan... They ordered only 26, but now wants to order remaining 31...
-
Two things to worry--->
1) Money
2) Whether it will kill TEDBF program...
----
Hope they won't go ahead with the 31 plan...

[Cybaru]

IMO, I don’t think TEDBF or ORCA have much chance right now. All major design teams are occupied with Mk1A, Mk2, and AMCA, and that’s the correct priority.

Inducting 12–18 LCA Navy aircraft would at least generate valuable operational data for whatever the next iteration turns out to be. Once Mk2 matures and goes through its development cycle, the focus will shift to AMCA. The core design teams likely won’t be available for a new clean-sheet program for another 3–4 years.

Historically, any new combat aircraft program takes at least 12–15 years from kickoff to first handover. Even if AI/LLMs speed up parts of the workflow, there’s still a significant amount of testing, certification, and systems integration that can’t be rushed. Given that, 2040 seems like a realistic timeline for any indigenous naval fighter that isn’t simply a navalized single-engine LCA.

If TEDBF gets funded, that would be great, but I’m not holding my breath, especially given the relatively small numbers required by the Indian Navy. With limited resources, the IAF should remain the priority.

On the rotary-wing side, however, naval helicopters should ideally be fully indigenous going forward. I hope the additional 12–24 MH-60R Romeos for ASW are the last major imported helicopter purchase for the Navy.

[Rakesh]

TEDBF was always considered as replacement of MIG 29Ks and for 3rd Aircraft Carrier...
For INS Vikrant, 57 MCRBF was always the plan... They ordered only 26, but now wants to order remaining 31...
-
Two things to worry--->
1) Money
2) Whether it will kill TEDBF program...
----
Hope they won't go ahead with the 31 plan...

57 was for 3 aircraft carriers. 18 per aircraft carrier + 3 in reserve.

This force strength was formulated at the time of the 65K super carrier with EMALS and nuclear power. That never materialized (budgetary issues) and the Navy dropped the idea, but never abandoned it. Now that a line for Rafale assembly is being planned in India, the Navy has resurrected the idea of 57 MRCBF by wanting another 31 additional air frames.

Now the plan is to have IAC-2 (follow-on Vikrant Class and with larger lifts) also with Rafale. That is what this follow-on purchase of 31 is partly for. Then move on to the super carrier program. There are rumours of a PANG type vessel (the upcoming French super carrier) for the navy's super carrier program. The navy makes grandoise plans, but many plans sink to the bottom of the ocean when they go in for funding.

TEDBF does not make sense anymore with the arrival of the Rafale M. The numbers of TEDBF being built will be paltry with 57 Rafale Ms in service. The better option is to move to a VLO platform i.e. naval AMCA. The moment the navy ordered the Rafale M, the TEDBF was done. 26 Rafale Ms killed the TEDBF and another 31 will dig a hole to bury the TEDBF.

[Rakesh]

If IAF is ordering so many with government clearing all hurdles so fast, I think it’s clear that Rafale is the reason why India had complete air dominance over Pakistani skies.

If there is anything that Op Sindoor illustrated, it was that the Rafale performed well. Despite all the social media spin you read on X, the Rafale completed all her missions effectively. Pak fan boys can beat their chest all they want and claim that their TFTA pilots shot down 4 Rafales, but that is not what happened. Any IAF losses incurred on May 07th was a result of conducting non-escalatory actions that was not necessary to begin with. Balakot proved that the PAF has no qualms of upping the ante and in Op Sindoor, this should have been factored in. This is not a reflection on the IAF strike package (Su-30MKIs, Mirage 2000s and Rafales), but rather the shortsightedness of the Govt and Air HQ who live under a premise that Pakistan will not escalate.

And X-Guard on Rafale was very much present at Op Sindoor and what the PAF is claiming four Rafales shot down, is some well executed electronic spoofing done by IAF pilots. If Op Sindoor did not happen, the MRFA contest would be still remain as a wishlist for Air HQ.

[Rakesh]

Rajnath Singh!=Maonhar Parikkar. I will choose Ashwini Vaishnav any day over RS if Former Air Chief R K Singh Bhadauria is not given that post. The semiconductor efforts are going very well under him and need Rajeev Chandrasekhar to replace him. The all knowing people of Thiruvananathapuram choose English Literature specialist over RC making him struck in TVM leading the party for the upcoming Assembly elections. BJP will gain in Kerala, while our defense will keep suffering. Everyone is responsible sirji. Collective effort is needed. And IAF also need to change for good.

Among the many tasks a Defence Minister has to juggle in the job, is shoot down unobtanium wishlists that the services ask for. Pointing fingers at Air HQ alone is not going to solve the problem of imports. At the end of the day it is the Govt that makes the call. They are equally to blame for this mess. The Tejas Mk1A and HTT-40 would not exist today, if it was not for Parrikar.

[Rakesh]

it's all a faarce saar. Yoda mithai leke doda. Sunk the mithai sub in the Arabian sea he did.

Yes it's been long in the coming. I just hope it's not too late.

With India, everything comes very late.

[A_Gupta]

Please read this twitter thread....

https://x.com/UTobyM/status/2022170317498855639?s=20 ---> There are two different philosophies of modern air dominance and survivability: being difficult to see or being harder to target. The US (Lockheed Martin) and China have chosen the first. Europe has mastered the second.

Twitter Thread on one page ---> https://twitter-thread.com/t/2022170317498855639

I can imagine, even in one battle, domination depending on having both types of aircraft. Having both stealth but less heavily armed, as well as heavily armed aircraft with active EM spectrum offense/defence gives an imaginative tactician a lot of scope to innovate.

[A_Gupta]

Nothing I have seen, in my limited seeing, shows that the Kaveri program for engines with afterburners was terminated without good reason. The Kaveri without afterburners lives on.

[A_Gupta]

I know the Rafale is good but with India spending close to 50 billion USD over lifecycle costs , one wonders how much is actually left for indigenous systems ?!

The budget does not break out into line items, unfortunately, so, e.g., out of a large pot of money for DRDO, how much is going to GTRE this fiscal year, I have not been able to ascertain.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/LancerFlying/status/20229 ... 02599?s=20 ---> GE Aerospace had placed the specific production line for India's F404-IN20 into "maintenance mode" (effectively a dormancy period) for about five years. As of early 2026, the situation has shifted from a total halt to a complex and expensive restart. Basically, India is financing the GE assembly line for an engine that GE stopped producing due to lack of orders. When govt placed a massive follow-on order for 83 (and later 97) more Mk1As, GE had to essentially "restart" a dead supply chain. I don't need to exphasise on the future threat that this poses in the long term availability of spares and support, that too the most critical part of our domestic front line combat aircraft. Without engines the aircraft is just a lump of very expensive metallic shit!

https://x.com/LancerFlying/status/20230 ... 08158?s=20 ---> Dassault had offered to transfer the whole assembly line of Mirage 2000-5 to India with global rights. Vajpayee and his Defence Minister Fernandes REJECTED the Dassault offer quoting single vender clause, even though IAF was happy with the Mirage 2000 and wanted more. Today our whole indigenous combat aircraft program from LCA Mk1 to the AMCA and TEDBF are stuck with a SINGLE VENDOR for its SINGLE MOST CRITICAL component, the engine and hostage to the fickle US sanctions regime. Kamaal Hai.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/shiv_cybersurg/status/202 ... 96370?s=20 ---> I had dinner with an influencer last night. I asked him why he was against the Rafale. He said, "China has 1,000 x Gen 5 aircraft. 200 Rafales will not win in a war. It will cost less and make much more sense to lose a war to China with 200 indigenous aircraft than 200 Rafales."

[uddu]

Rajnath Singh!=Maonhar Parikkar. I will choose Ashwini Vaishnav any day over RS if Former Air Chief R K Singh Bhadauria is not given that post. The semiconductor efforts are going very well under him and need Rajeev Chandrasekhar to replace him. The all knowing people of Thiruvananathapuram choose English Literature specialist over RC making him struck in TVM leading the party for the upcoming Assembly elections. BJP will gain in Kerala, while our defense will keep suffering. Everyone is responsible sirji. Collective effort is needed. And IAF also need to change for good.

Among the many tasks a Defence Minister has to juggle in the job, is shoot down unobtanium wishlists that the services ask for. Pointing fingers at Air HQ alone is not going to solve the problem of imports. At the end of the day it is the Govt that makes the call. They are equally to blame for this mess. The Tejas Mk1A and HTT-40 would not exist today, if it was not for Parrikar.

Rakesh ji, the DM need to be very deeply knowledgeable about tech to be an excellent DM like Manohar Parikkar. He could guide the forces with his knowledge and leadership qualities to suggest and find alternatives within India. He was also not averse to risk taking. Many in the Fauj is not knowing about the ecosystem that exist within the country in terms of tech capabilities. One such joke is Indian Army coming to know about Tonbo when they went to exercise with a foreign power. There is a mindset within IAF that is predominantly about importing weapons. Many reasons could be behind that. Their own exposure is to foreign weapons. Their utilization of Indian weaponry are mostly from times that was a decade or so and in very limited numbers, and the quality associated with that initial times and hard held believes coming from that. The IAF leadership alone will not solve the problem. We have very excellent Air Chief's but they are also not alone in decision making and many inputs, suggestion, requirements all come from various branches of the force.

When we look at the Navy, they have sourced their platforms in the form of warships while still using engines and weaponry from abroad when they never had a choice. Today when they have a choice, many of the weaponry is also going indigenous. The Navy has messed up in two areas, one being their own Fighter wing and Conventional Submarines, The Conventional Submarine space also will get bridged in the coming decade. They are also investing in engines when it's possible to do so with such an option. Their helicopter fleet is also moving with Dhruv, ULH, IMRH etc. This approach is expected from IAF as well. Bottom up approach from every branch of the force, every member of the force.

[A_Gupta]

https://x.com/shiv_cybersurg/status/202 ... 96370?s=20 ---> I had dinner with an influencer last night. I asked him why he was against the Rafale. He said, "China has 1,000 x Gen 5 aircraft. 200 Rafales will not win in a war. It will cost less and make much more sense to lose a war to China with 200 indigenous aircraft than 200 Rafales."

IMO, the goal is not to win a war, rather, not to fight one (with China, that is).

[bala]

India can engage in creating lower power engines that currently power the HTT-40 and Dornier 228. These are not beyond the capability of DRDO. But we continue to buy from Honeywell or Garrett. The Yashas engine is another. HAL is slated to manufacture the AL-55E engine of Russia.

[Rakesh]

Rakesh ji, U.S got Canada and Mexico as their neighbours, none of who are grabbing U.S land nor sending terrorists to kill their citizens. U.S choose British Legacy and went expeditionary. Unfortunately for us, we have hostile neighbors China and Pakistan. We don't have to be expeditonary or even the need to be superpower to induct MK1A in numbers, especially with a PLAAF+PAF+BAF (New Jihadi recruitment to the U.S camp) as our neighbours.

GE and Pratt & Whitney of the US have got full political backing and funding for new generation low bypass turbofans. We have no such luxury in India. Thus we are importing fighters, while America builds her own. Big Difference.

Doing rona-dhona about Rafales, while we ignore our own development of low bypass turbofans is not a Atmanirbharta strategy. Now if the goal is to build street cred in Atmanirbharta and increase your followers on X, then by all means do rona-dhona on Rafale.

One major issue that need change, I will list is the very long time in upgrade/update taken up on the aircraft. There were times in the past when this was very much okay since both the Chinese and we were relying on Soviet equipment and both were importers of soviet or foreign equipment and the need for frequent upgdates/upgrades never existed, since both flew tech which were similar and it went on for decades before both choose to induct better equipment with better systems or upgrades with then available tech. In today's context this ia a very flawed process taking into consideration today's China is not an importer but Atmanirbhar Chinese AF. We need to keep updating our fighters at much more short timeframes to have the edge over adversary. This is very much possible with Tejas Mk1/A/2 and so on. It seems IAF is waiting for the legacy radar on MK1 to be utilized fully till its lifetime, while we have better UTTAM radars available. Hope IAF takes up upgrades of MK1 with Uttam radars right away. The Chinese will also be doing such upgrades much more frequently. Even the requirements need to be made with the kind of upgrades and updates that need to be done in the next 5 years rather than what can be imported after so and so years.

How many "Atmanirbhar Chinese AF" have non-Chinese turbofans? Please find out

Uttam radar will only work if there is an engine to power the radar, no?

Can the Mig-21 Bison be fitted with Uttam AESA and Astra MK1/2? and provide the same performance as the MK1A? If yes, I will take it. It's unnecessary to compare and go back in history when we have our own fighter in the MK1A.

But the Bison cannot. That is the point. You are again solely focusing on radar and missiles, without factoring into account if the Bison has the endurance to conduct the missions that the Tejas Mk2 will be required to undertake. Please learn to stop thinking in silos and kindly broaden your horizon. The Tejas Mk2 is more capable than Tejas Mk1A and Tejas Mk1A is more capable than MiG-21 Bison. It is the entire package that makes the difference and not just a radar or a missile. If that was the case, one could put AIM-120D AMRAAMs on B-52 bombers. But will they be effective?

I am not pointing fingers at anyone other than pointing out the money meant for Rafale purchase can be best utilized in many areas from increasing production of MK1A which inturn will continue with MK2. upgrade the existing MK1 to MK1A standard. Super Sukhoi upgrade with Virupaksha radars, place order for more Astra MK1/MK2. Testing facilities for engines. Getting Kaveri put on the Current Tejas MK1A and make it flying and so on.

Getting Kaveri to work is at minimum a five to ten year undertaking. You cannot tell the PAF and the PLAAF to hold on and let me build up my Tejas squadron strength first and then we can go to war. The IAF needs aircraft like yesterday and with each passing year, the situation gets only more dire.

The IAF will not increase the number of Mk1As, above the 180 that has been ordered for. As much as you would like to see that in the IAF versus more Rafales, it will not happen. Even if you put Kaveri into Mk1A and make it fly, still the IAF will not accept additional Mk1As above and beyond the 180. Think not just about radar & missile. Factor also endurance, payload capacity, mission requirements, etc. The Tejas Mk2 will do everything better than what the Mk1A does. No air force will continue to induct a platform, when there is another platform available to them that outclasses it in every measure. And especially if that platform is a local one.

Unkil or Macron are all for our money. Till now we were paying for engines and now a condition is created to pay for Engines+ airframe+ missiles+ radars+ Jammers to even flares, Eventually our scientists have to dedicate their life in inventing and making component replacements for the French purchased aircraft which must have gone into creating solutions for our own or creating a Sixth Generation jet. Eventually when there is no money to do all that we again go and launch the Stealth Medium Aircraft contact competition. The nation has to come out of this cycle.

But the nation can only come out of the cycle, when we fund our own engine. Find out when the 120kN turbofan for the AMCA will actually be ready. The soon-to-retire DRDO chief just recently gave that timeline. Please google and find out.

Today we have to import an entire aircraft (Rafale), because we developed one of our own (Tejas) and with an engine (Kaveri). But the moment the going got tough with the Kaveri, we gave up and decided to import a foreign one. Because that was the easier thing to do. Now we are eating the fruits of that foolish decision. However rather than addressing that issue head on, we are complaining about importing another fighter. We shut down Kaveri and are discussing assembly of a foreign engine. And then have the gall to flex that Tejas is a Atmanirbharta product!

Now we have the ignominy of the HAL Chief flying to the US to request them to speed up deliveries of the engine. But there is no outrage about that whatsoever. But 114 Rafales are a detriment to Atmanirbharta. The double standard in the outrage is hilarious.

Obviously MK2 will be able to carry more load, go further over MK1A. Even when you have tech for MK1A surely it or its variants can go into MK2 as well or many things developed for MK2 can also go into MK1A as well. Advantage of having our own platforms.

And the advantage of having our own low bypass turbofan will allow India to design a host of platforms.

I will take a mix of MK1A and MK2 over Rafale
2 and a half Tejas MK1A over 1 Rafale
1 and a half Tejas MK2 over 1 Rafale

What you and I wish for is irrelevant. The only deciding factor that matters is what will be the missions of tomorrow and what platforms will be required to execute those missions. That is why Tejas Mk2 exists.

Neither the U.S nor the French can be trusted. The French don't have hostile intent but they are also for our money. Regarding GE F404, Here the political class has to get it done. Armtwist or offer bigger carrot is upto them. There is a statement from Piyush Goyal about engine supply and the lucrative offer. So if the U.S want to grab the engine part of the so called 500B trade offer, they must be delivering else lose to the French and end up with lesser $. They are also seting up MRO facility in India.

MRO facilities are no substitute for your own engine. The hot section of the F404 and F414 will remain with GE and will not be shared with India. You can only MRO an engine, as long as the OEM provides you with the support to do so.

When MK1 and MK2 prototypes are tested with M88 on PV and one more prototype for new french engine for MK2, there will be pressure on GE losing current and future engine contracts.

That is a 10 year venture to see a certified and viable turbofan. The IAF does not have 10 years.

From our side First step with engines is in getting the Kaveri certified for use on Tejas. Money can best be put in test infrastucture and make this happen. In Parallel let French engines be tested and certified on MK1A iteself. This will be useful in export offering with the engine of choice for customers. Whoever want to colloborate and get their engine tested and certified on Tejas should be welcomed.

Same reply as above

Engines, is lucrative for the U.S as much as it is for the French. Even U.K is coming forward and bettering their engine offer for MK2. Meanwhile we must be doing risk mitigation with multiple engines tested and certified on Tejas platforms. It will be lurcrative for the foreign engine manufacturers as they get to sell their engines for every Tejas exported.

Rolls Royce is in competition with Safran and GE for the AMCA turbofan. I have not heard anything about RR offering an engine for the Tejas Mk2. The EJ200 was one of the contestants (the other being the F414) to power the Tejas Mk2. The F414 won.

About the deal, even if it collapses. better put that money in Kaveri infrastructure+upgrading MK1 to MK1A standard. Super Sukhoi upgrade orders for Astra MK2 and much more frequent upgrade+updates of our desi fighters and keep them top notch and ready.

A only worse outcome will come out, if the deal with Dassault collapses. And the only worse outcome is an even more expensive import than the Rafale.

[ashthor]

Earlier russian had it hands on our jugular now we are hell bent on transferring parts of it to europe and us.

[drnayar]

https://x.com/shiv_cybersurg/status/202 ... 96370?s=20 ---> I had dinner with an influencer last night. I asked him why he was against the Rafale. He said, "China has 1,000 x Gen 5 aircraft. 200 Rafales will not win in a war. It will cost less and make much more sense to lose a war to China with 200 indigenous aircraft than 200 Rafales."

IMO, the goal is not to win a war, rather, not to fight one (with China, that is).

Wars are fought long before an actual war if you need to win. Consider all the procurement and development and costs involved as wars happening across economic , military, industrial and political sectors. India has been in a state of war since independence. Those who do speak a lot ( politicians) and don't understand this are failures.

We can't stop, but do best at what's possible but have that vision for a truly independent future" atmanirbhar"

[A_Gupta]

Shreyash Sharma in FirstPost: “ The goal isn’t necessarily for India to win a limited war—but to make sure it can withstand one. The longer India can sustain a coherent and resilient defence posture under pressure, the less attractive coercive war becomes for China.”

[Manish_Sharma]

https://x.com/Indrani1_Roy/status/20213 ... 56129?s=20

Indranil Roy wrote:

This comes up often. So, let me show you how unjust we are to the development and acceptance of our products.

I will base all my comments the Union govts. own audit reports. It is accused that this report tries to justify the 36 Rafale purchase. So let's have a comparison!

------------------------------------------------
https://x.com/Indrani1_Roy/status/20213 ... 18692?s=20

1. Did Rafale meet the MMRCA ASQR?

No, in 14 parameters.

Solution: We changed the ASQR!

The remaining became the the basis for "India Specific Enhancements". We paid $1.8 billion dollars for them!

What do we do to ours?!

https://x.com/Indrani1_Roy/status/20213 ... 41373?s=20
2. And what are these ASQRs which are India Specific? Things like Helmet Mounted Display and integration of Meteor missile?

We funded these. under INDIA SPECIFIC Enhancements?

https://x.com/Indrani1_Roy/status/20213 ... 06179?s=20
3. By the way, where these enhancements tested in the field?

No. Presentations were accepted!

https://x.com/Indrani1_Roy/status/20213 ... 05532?s=20
4. Did Rafales come with the ISE when they were inducted in 2020.

NO!

The first batch arrived in 2020. The French send a team to India. IAF deputed 2 Rafales back to validate the changes. Once validated the retrofit started at 2022 at 2 aircrafts per month.

--------------------------------------
https://x.com/JA_Maolankar/status/20220 ... 72060?s=20

Jaideep Maolankar
@JA_Maolankar wrote:
Are you sure this is genuine @Indrani1_Roy
!?!! Who the @#&% wrote this “requirement” which was “not required in the first place”?

https://x.com/Indrani1_Roy/status/20220 ... 50819?s=20

Indranil Roy:
From the outside, I scratch my head in disbelief. You have a been at the receiving end.

I really wish you wrote a book. Accountability should not be a one way street.

--------------------------------------
https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/2021966 ... 27597?s=20

DefSec: ..For Tejas Mk1A HAL is seeking further exemptions which IAF is balking at..
Imo:
Exemptions sought for Mk1A should never be permanent. HAL signed up for this & should deliver. However, depending on the exact nature of the exemptions, IAF can also consider accepting available aircraft with new rigid timelines for fixing all outstanding issues. That Rafale seemingly got some exemptions earlier shouldn't automatically mean Mk1A is also eligible for that, HAL - ADA has to up it's game here.

https://x.com/HaridasKukkur/status/2023 ... 46075?s=20

No such issue with Rafael.
IAF gave timed relaxation of many years.

But LCA can't be given such equal treatment that is given to imported weapons.

Indians are par excellent in self flaggeration (self whipping).

[ritesh]

The supposed additional Rafale M order on top of 114 for IAF is like ...

of aatmanirbharta

[drnayar]

And the case for a true blue 5th generation fighter

https://nationalsecurityjournal.org/fra ... after-all/

The F5-class Rafale is, in narrow technical terms, the finest Rafale ever built. A new suite of advanced sensors, improved networking, enhanced electronic warfare, and a sharper weapons loadout make it everything Dassault promises: sleeker, more lethal, and more digitally integrated than any prior variant.

Still, it is a design built around aerodynamic visibility, signature compromises, and the performance envelope of a pre-stealth era. The F5 can dodge, deceive, and dance—but it cannot disappear. Beyond-visual-range fights are now won not by pilot virtuosity but by who sees first, decides fastest, and delivers the cleanest firing solution from a position of near-invisibility. That is not the world this airframe was built for, no matter how aggressively its avionics are modernized.

[bkswarti]

The supposed additional Rafale M order on top of 114 for IAF is like ...
of aatmanirbharta

Just wait until we buy two squadrons of Su-57. All of this is a result of decades of inaction. I don’t think the government has any choice now. China has been aggressively inducting J-20, a true 5th gen fighter. They’ve already flown multiple 6th gen fighter protoypes. We have yet to fly the Mk 2, AMCA, TEDBF, ORCA, etc. Even Pakistan has been inducting fighters faster than us. Our squadron numbers are similar to Pakistanis now. Forget China. Pakistan is about to get J-35 soon too. We will be left behind.

IAF needs to be ready to fight a war tomorrow. Aatmanirbharta is great, but we can’t choose to ignore our squadron numbers. We can’t even deliver a single Mk 1A, the same plane that took its maiden flight in 2001 with updated avionics. We have 0 choice. Tejas Mk 2 and AMCA are decades away and still a figment of imagination. I have no doubt in my mind that Pakistan will attack us any opportunity they get. And the truth is we may be vulnerable in the next decade without these purchases. If we don’t make these decisions now (which I think is already a decade late) there will be no Bharat left for atmanirbhar Bharat.

[bkswarti]

https://x.com/shiv_cybersurg/status/202 ... 96370?s=20 ---> I had dinner with an influencer last night. I asked him why he was against the Rafale. He said, "China has 1,000 x Gen 5 aircraft. 200 Rafales will not win in a war. It will cost less and make much more sense to lose a war to China with 200 indigenous aircraft than 200 Rafales."

May be the dumbest take ever. If the result is to lose a war than why spend any money into defence? We could have used all this money handing out free food instead of spending any money that may go outside of the country in any way. Let’s return our foreign S-400’s. AK-47 rifles, foreign clothes…

[LakshmanPST]

TEDBF was always considered as replacement of MIG 29Ks and for 3rd Aircraft Carrier...
For INS Vikrant, 57 MCRBF was always the plan... They ordered only 26, but now wants to order remaining 31...

57 was for 3 aircraft carriers. 18 per aircraft carrier + 3 in reserve.

This force strength was formulated at the time of the 65K super carrier with EMALS and nuclear power. That never materialized (budgetary issues) and the Navy dropped the idea, but never abandoned it. Now that a line for Rafale assembly is being planned in India, the Navy has resurrected the idea of 57 MRCBF by wanting another 31 additional air frames.

Now the plan is to have IAC-2 (follow-on Vikrant Class and with larger lifts) also with Rafale. That is what this follow-on purchase of 31 is partly for. Then move on to the super carrier program. There are rumours of a PANG type vessel (the upcoming French super carrier) for the navy's super carrier program. The navy makes grandoise plans, but many plans sink to the bottom of the ocean when they go in for funding.

TEDBF does not make sense anymore with the arrival of the Rafale M. The numbers of TEDBF being built will be paltry with 57 Rafale Ms in service. The better option is to move to a VLO platform i.e. naval AMCA. The moment the navy ordered the Rafale M, the TEDBF was done. 26 Rafale Ms killed the TEDBF and another 31 will dig a hole to bury the TEDBF.

I vaguely remember MRCBF was specifically conceived for INS Vikrant...
Initial plan was to have LCA-Navy in Vikrant, but Indian Navy opted out of the program... They asked for a new Twin Engine Fighter, but since it will take time, 57 MRCBF was proposed as an "interim" measure as a new air arm is needed for INS Vikrant which is ready...

The proposed TEDBF will replace MIG29Ks on Vikramaditya and later will also form Air Arm for 3rd carrier...
----
It also makes sense, coz. if it was only 57 jets for all 3 carriers, it makes zero sense to even develop a new Fighter...
The total fighters required for all 3 carriers was always more than 100...

[Cain Marko]

Please read this twitter thread....

https://x.com/UTobyM/status/2022170317498855639?s=20 ---> There are two different philosophies of modern air dominance and survivability: being difficult to see or being harder to target. The US (Lockheed Martin) and China have chosen the first. Europe has mastered the second.

Twitter Thread on one page ---> https://twitter-thread.com/t/2022170317498855639

I can imagine, even in one battle, domination depending on having both types of aircraft. Having both stealth but less heavily armed, as well as heavily armed aircraft with active EM spectrum offense/defence gives an imaginative tactician a lot of scope to innovate.

That's just euro cope IMHO. In the final analysis only one type can be configured for both roles.

[uddu]

Rakesh ji, How will Rafale purchase help us build indigenous engine? All your suggestions are leading to one thing. Engines. For sure. But what has engines do with the Rafale imports? You seems to suggest, we need engines, but is totally against utilizing and continuing with our own aircrafts with imported engines for the time being (That's because we have no choice). Whatever engines are aviable, use that and fly our fighters for half a decade or so until Kaveri gets ready and we could fly it on our fighters. This is what I am suggesting. Rafale import will not help us with anything.
Or you are suggesting is that, forget about our fighters. Let's keep importing rafale till 2040, when the joint venture engines are ready. Is that so Sirji?

[uddu]

And for the Chinese and their engines, this is what I found out. They also used Russian engines and even today do so, while they are transitioned to using their engines in their fighters. About 300+ engines made within 2015 is what Wiki saying. And today improved variant in the form of WS-15 being developed. This is the same strategy we can follow. Either American F-404+F414 or French M88 till Kaveri Derivative variant is ready. Start replacing F-404/M88 and it's variants in Tejas MK1. Once it's completed Develop uprated valiant of the Kaveri to power Tejas MK2 and its variants. When Joint venture engine comes use it for AMCA and AMCA MK2+Sixth Gen AMCA MK2 variants
Variants
WS-10 – base variant
WS-10A – improved variant with FADEC;[3] advertised to have 120–140 kilonewtons (27,000–31,000 lbf) thrust.[1]
WS-10B – improved variant with greater reliability and thrust; based on the WS-10A,[31] with thrust reported as 135 kilonewtons (30,000 lbf) by Janes in 2020[22] and 144 kilonewtons (32,000 lbf) by Chinese media.[32][33][better source needed]
WS-10H – Naval variant equipped on two Shenyang J-15 prototypes. Limited to testing.[22]
WS-10B-3 – TVC variant[29]
WS-10C – "Updated"[19] variant with stealthier serrated exhaust feathers and improved thrust of 142 kilonewtons (32,000 lbf).[34]
WS-10G – thrust vectoring variant[35] generating 152–155 kilonewtons (34,000–35,000 lbf) of thrust during testing;[3] intended for the Chengdu J-20[35]
WS-20 – high-bypass derivative for the Y-20 transport; 138 kilonewtons (31,000 lbf) of thrust[27]
QD70 – 7MW class gas turbine engine developed from WS-10 for industrial & naval applications[36]
Applications

WS-10
Shenyang J-8II (test)[1]
WS-10A
Chengdu J-10B (test)[13]
Shenyang J-11B[37]
Shenyang J-15[38][1]
Shenyang J-16[1]
WS-10B
Chengdu J-10C[15][39][40]
Shenyang J-16[41]
Chengdu J-20 (low rate initial production aircraft)[16]
WS-10B-3
Chengdu J-10B (demonstrator)[29]
Chengdu J-20B (prototype)[29]
WS-10C
Chengdu J-20 (2019–present)[29][17][42][43][44]

[Manish_P]

...

it's all a faarce saar. Yoda mithai leke doda. Sunk the mithai sub in the Arabian sea he did.

Just a minor nitpick - Yoda was not the chosen one who would 'bring balance to the force'... not that i am calling the good admiral a deceptive sith lord

[Manish_P]

...
TEDBF does not make sense anymore with the arrival of the Rafale M. The numbers of TEDBF being built will be paltry with 57 Rafale Ms in service. The better option is to move to a VLO platform i.e. naval AMCA. The moment the navy ordered the Rafale M, the TEDBF was done. 26 Rafale Ms killed the TEDBF and another 31 will dig a hole to bury the TEDBF.

Admiral saab i fear that the additional Rafale Ms will do more than dig a hole to bury the TEDBF. They, like the mirage 2000 before it, are a step-ladder over the path to the next french filly - the NGF - FCAS/SCAF - which will be yet another hedge to the AMCA.

[pravula]

TEDBF was always a long shot without ORFA. Who would design a brand new fighter airframe with no experience on dual engines, for less than 60 examples? If we had a twin engine bird in production, it would be reasonable…Deck based AMCA it is.