.and for the ones who think valor in the age of smart bombs, cluster bombs, Fuel air explosives is a little anachronism...
Valor to the people who understand valor, not to people who dont understand valor..
Interesting, to say the least.
Ved wrote:The hallmark of fine sense is the adherence to one's own values. Do we need to match the bad examples, or wouldnt we rather set a few good ones of our own? This is not 'armchair general' talk, but feelings from the front line.John Snow wrote:It is great to hear that IA is gentlemen first.... officer next...
But what of Shaurab Kalia, and SqLdr Ahuja... who suffered so much in their hands?
CPrakash wrote:I dont know about Kalia, but it appears that Ahuja was killed in a regular shootout - no use blaming the packees on that.
if I may correct you, the rotting head story was very much reported before the story of Kalia broke out. it was written about in India Today - and the tone of the article was actually positive and encouraging.Ashok wrote:CPrakash,
I know you said you could not comment on Lt. Kalia, but why not?
Why stick only to the case of Sqd. Ldr. Ahuja? Such behaviour is the rule, not the exception, for TSP's jihadi/army hordes. The rotting head story that you mention came into circulation after these incidents.
Regarding postmortem reports -- they were posted on BR if I recall correctly, during the Kargil war, and discussed at length as well.
Trying to stir the pot, I see?RayC wrote:
I would surely appreciate comments from those who wish the IA to be barbaric.
!
RayC wrote:If the psyche that is advocated by some on this forum is to be barbaric, it is an interesting viewpoint and of that there is no doubt.
Actually the argument is not about torturing and killing Pakistani POWs, but about giving them gallantry citations and commendations.Anoop wrote:How can one be barbaric towards barbarians and then turn around and be civilized towards civilized people? Let's look at it from a practical standpoint. You are the CO of a unit that has captured Pak PoWs. You allow or actively instigate your men to torture. The soldiers have learnt what is expected of them and they obey orders. Next your unit goes on a COIN assignment and picks up who they think are terrorists. They follow the same modus operandi to extract information. How do you stop them? If you don't, what has happened to the discipline in your unit and to your ability to win the peace? What prevents them from turning on anyone they don't like - like a particularly strict officer, for instance? What keeps the moral fabric intact? Without that moral fabric, why would a unit follow orders to the death? Without that sense of superiority and sense of upholding regimental values, why wouldn't the IA become a band of rag-tag militia, doing drugs and raping women?
I think we should listen to the officers on this board who speak from experience of leading men through fire - they know what keeps the unit functioning.
you are right - we got distracted.rocky wrote:Actually the argument is not about torturing and killing Pakistani POWs, but about giving them gallantry citations and commendations.Anoop wrote:How can one be barbaric towards barbarians and then turn around and be civilized towards civilized people? Let's look at it from a practical standpoint. You are the CO of a unit that has captured Pak PoWs. You allow or actively instigate your men to torture. The soldiers have learnt what is expected of them and they obey orders. Next your unit goes on a COIN assignment and picks up who they think are terrorists. They follow the same modus operandi to extract information. How do you stop them? If you don't, what has happened to the discipline in your unit and to your ability to win the peace? What prevents them from turning on anyone they don't like - like a particularly strict officer, for instance? What keeps the moral fabric intact? Without that moral fabric, why would a unit follow orders to the death? Without that sense of superiority and sense of upholding regimental values, why wouldn't the IA become a band of rag-tag militia, doing drugs and raping women?
I think we should listen to the officers on this board who speak from experience of leading men through fire - they know what keeps the unit functioning.
CPrakash wrote: Wouldnt it be interesting to see if the same members who advocate tit-for-tat are given access to a pak prisoner and asked to do the same - how many of them will have the guts to do so?
Is there a link out there where i can read saurabh kalias post mortem report?cbelwal wrote:Sometimes revenge does serve as an insurance policy against repetition of unsavoury incidents. And based on implementation sometimes it can worsen the situation.
Every state should have a policy of revenge though it implementation should be on a quid pro basis. In this case India should have avenged the death through other means which would have hit harder on the Pakis. They would have taken extra care not to do something like this again in the future. The fact that India did not even raise a stink is a free pass for Pakistan to do further Saurabh Kalia's in the future.
]
This is a truism that cannot be refuted.The ineptitude of the Indian security apparatus to use media to its advantage has resulted in Human Rights violations, justice et al being used as a one edged sword by the Pakis. Their propaganda and marketing machinery works overtime leading to demoralization and calls for change in the Indian Army ethos. These are symptons of them winning this psychological war.
If the enemy knows that the other side is not brutal and inhuman, then there is a good chance that when the odds totally indicate that the case is lost, he will readily surrender.quote="cbelwal"]Sometimes revenge does serve as an insurance policy against repetition of unsavoury incidents. And based on implementation sometimes it can worsen the situation.
Every state should have a policy of revenge though it implementation should be on a quid pro basis. In this case India should have avenged the death through other means which would have hit harder on the Pakis. They would have taken extra care not to do something like this again in the future. The fact that India did not even raise a stink is a free pass for Pakistan to do further Saurabh Kalia's in the future.
CPrakash wrote: Is there a link out there where i can read saurabh kalias post mortem report?
Mud on who? RayC? No disrespect intended, but I do get a feeling that he really didnt mean what he say.ramana wrote:CP, TSP behavior post 1980 jihadization is different from earlier encounters. They got worse in the involvement in Afghanistan. In Kargil what was done to the POWs was despicable. Nothing to placate the members here.
Why are you throwing mud on members by implication? Whats up?
BTW, Gen. Hugh Shelton also expressed some reservations about the reports of torture of POWS by the TSP during Kargil. Look it up.
My eldest sister is neighbour to proud Kalia family> i came to know few Paki kartoots early this year. Pakis, dead or alive deserve no pity and should get none.cbelwal wrote:Detailed Post Mortems are not public info. Here are a few with some info. He was posthumously awarded a Captain's rank. May his soul RIP.
http://www.geocities.com/siafdu/kalia.html
http://www.petitiononline.com/LtKalia/petition.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saurabh_Kalia
...
The postmortem revealed that the Pakistan army had indulged in the most heinous acts; of burning their bodies with cigarettes, piercing ear-drums with hot rods, puncturing eyes before removing them, breaking most of the teeth and bones, chopping off various limbs and private organs of these soldiers besides inflicting all sorts of physical and mental tortures before shooting them dead.
...
http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/nov/03dilip.htm
CPrakash wrote: Is there a link out there where i can read saurabh kalias post mortem report?
This might have something do with being Punjabi Hindu. AFAIK Kalia and Ahuja are Punjabi.CPrakash wrote:surya, Was there a firefight as was the case with nachiketa?Surya wrote:CP:
Ahuja's batchmates believe he was shot in cold blood -
And of course Nachi was also beaten up.
it also beggars the question - why was nachi spared?
Not , if one is trained from childhood to torture ,slaughter animals and slit Kafir throats.. the last being God sent blessing. We are talking about IROTIANS here not normal human beings.Anoop wrote:I have heard that soldiers have nightmares of their time in combat - and that the faces of their enemy dead continue to haunt them long after the war is over. And this is when the choice is between killing or being killed.
Now imagine the nightmares that will visit upon a willful torturer. Imagine what state of mind will give no nightmares. Now imagine a whole army of such minds. One should be careful what one wishes for.
That was a doctor from Florida, who was avery active member of BRF in those daysramana wrote:Right during Kargil I wrote to Dr. Kalia expressing my condolences. He thanked me and also mailed me a copy of the post morterm report. I will see if I can dig it up.
BTW, One of our members had organized a medical camp in Palampur in Lt. Kalia's memory.
You want to try something in ICJ, you need the assent of both govts - no prizes for guessin that the paks wont give their assent.abhischekcc wrote:Is there any way in which we members of BR can file a case against Mushak and other Pak Army officers involved in these murders, in the Intl Court of Justice, for war crimes?
I am talking about the dangers of becoming like them, something more than one member on BRF has been advocating.Prem wrote: Not , if one is trained from childhood to torture ,slaughter animals and slit Kafir throats.. the last being God sent blessing. We are talking about IROTIANS here not normal human beings.
Err, then how was the Pinochet prosecuted? He was sued in Holland, IIRC. Will that work in this case?CPrakash wrote:You want to try something in ICJ, you need the assent of both govts - no prizes for guessin that the paks wont give their assent.abhischekcc wrote:Is there any way in which we members of BR can file a case against Mushak and other Pak Army officers involved in these murders, in the Intl Court of Justice, for war crimes?
First - its against the Geneva conventions.ShibaPJ wrote:Anoop & CP,
The idea is not to become 'barbarians' aka Puki Army. India could have taken unofficial posture of 'Taking no prisoners' from Kargil battlefields or strafing the downhill skiing Pukis. Similar postures have been taken before in internal anti-terrorism campaigns.. Why can't they be extended to external battlefields?