India test-fires indigenous missile [ DHANUSH ]

member_3097 · Post by **member_3097** » 21 Sep 2001 20:51

I have decided to open up this thread for discussion on the test-firing of ship-based Dhanush Missile. If the Administrator feels that this thread is not worth discussing against the backdrop of WTC bomb-attack and discussion on PAK and its allies-sponsored terrorism globally, then it can be dumped to the trash. But it would be worth discussing about the ship based missile test-firing. With this test-firing India is poised to join a selected band of countries that can build ship based ballistic missiles. Here are the following links : <UL STYLE="list-style-type: square"> <LI><A HREF="http://www.timesofindia.com/articleshow ... 1120181272" TARGET=_blank>India test-fires indigenous missile :</A> <LI><a href="http://www.timesofindia.com/articleshow ... =641465650" target=_blank>'Dhanus' missile flight tested :</a> </UL>

George J · Post by **George J** » 21 Sep 2001 20:57

Where does a Ballistic Anti-Ship (?) or Ship-Based missile for 250 km range fit in with another supersonic cruise missile of 280 km range already in the works?What is the justification of having a 1 ton warhead (conventional) in anti shipping roles? Do you really need a 1 ton non-conventional warhead for a carrier battle group?Or is this some unfinished projects that are just yielding results and good for the national ego?

Umrao · Post by **Umrao** » 21 Sep 2001 21:03

George>> Sometimes you sharpen a knife thats already sharp in public so that its understood by sharp people (in power in TSP).

Rudra · Post by **Rudra** » 21 Sep 2001 21:05

worthy topic. but the links dont work for me (netsc 4). anyone else ? just cut paste the revelant parts if you will...

Nikhil Shah · Post by **Nikhil Shah** » 21 Sep 2001 21:06

Ship-to-ship BM is the first I have heard. BM are good for static or slow moving targets. This should have been names ship-to-shore BM

Anurag · Post by **Anurag** » 21 Sep 2001 21:09

Does anyone know the ship used for test firing the Dhanush.

Tim · Post by **Tim** » 21 Sep 2001 21:15

Very short articles, without a lot of info. It's interesting that the range is listed as 150 km - does that mean that the Dhanush they're testing is a version of the Army Prithvi?I suspect that calling it a "ship-to-ship" missile simply reflects the confusion of what it's actually supposed to do. Ship-launched ballistic missiles aren't very typical weapons, especially realtively short-ranged ones. It's possible that with a considerable amount of work and high-quality space-based recon assets, you could configure it for ship-to-ship strikes, but the missile would have to be much more accurate and reliable. A one-ton warhead on a ballistic missile would pretty much polish off most warships.But I think the technical and integration problems are very daunting.My guess is that it's a test-bed for the Navy to get used to having a missile force, because at some point in the distant future they hope to have a larger role in the nuclear deterrent. This will let them work out at least some of the kinks in the system before better equipment is available.Tim

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Sep 2001 21:18

This thread certainly makes a welcome change from the oppresive news and events of the last 200 odd hours.

durvasa · Post by **durvasa** » 21 Sep 2001 21:36

Guys, can some one please make it clear!! Is this a ship-to-ship or ship-to-shore missile!!My impression is that Dhanush is designed to pound Karachi and Gwadar and not to baptise puki-Leanders in Arabian waters!! but then i may be wrong??

Vick · Post by **Vick** » 21 Sep 2001 21:43

Tim wrote: My guess is that it's a test-bed for the Navy to get used to having a missile force, because at some point in the distant future they hope to have a larger role in the nuclear deterrent. This will let them work out at least some of the kinks in the system before better equipment is available.Tim probably is closer to the truth than he realizes. There was a recent JNI article detailing some of the recent steps made in the ATV direction.The article mentions that L&T has made a missle launch/test "barge" that simulates the conditions that a SLBM experiences when it is launched. This could have been used for this launch.If in fact this test rig was used, then we can be fairly certain that this Dhanush is not going to be an operational missle but rather a test bed for future SLBM (launching) designs.My gut tells me that this L&T made test rig was used. By the way, so as not to cause confusion the test rig (as far as I understand) is not a sub but more a barge like vessel is on the surface and has a(?) missle tube in the center. The tube is also a test bed for the VLS system for the ATV. But more importantly the tube is set up to expose the missle and launching systems to the conditions (pressures, salinity, general rocking motion, etc).By the way, if people have missed it or forgot, L&T has been awarded the contract to construct the hull of the ATV and will be built in modules which will be floted to the assembly yard on the east coast. L&T also got the contract to make the VLS system and I believe has completed the system. But not sure if this VLS is exclusively for the ATV or it can also be used for surface ships.

member_3032 · Post by **member_3032** » 21 Sep 2001 21:44

As usual this is a goof up of the media. I suspect the DRDO release read Dhanush is a SS and was test-fired from ship. The reporters filled in the blank smartly - thinking if the first S stood for ship - the next one did too

Dhanush is a ship fired surface to surface missile. It indeed is the naval version of Prithvi.

Kuttan · Post by **Kuttan** » 21 Sep 2001 21:45

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Is this a ship-to-ship or ship-to-shore missile!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Both. Most of the TSPN is, as u know, inside or under Karachi and Gwadar harbors since 1971. The Dhanush may be aimed, say, at the oil tanks in the harbors. As happened in 1971, the TPSAF then zooms in and uses the ABDUL Mark IV machine-cannon to wipe out the invading ships - in the harbor. Please read the Pak Defense Journal for details of the highly successful TSPAF attack which left over 900 holes in a ship, which of course was a TSPN ship - the only TSPN ship then left afloat after the IN missile-boat strikes. And if you think I am kidding... well, join the Club of many who have found out later to their chagrin otherwise.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 21 Sep 2001 21:46

Trust the DDM's to confuse the world. Guys sit back and enjoy. At least Tim suggestion is original. If this BM is ship to ship, we are first in the world. Then why do we have so many anti ship missile that are far more easier to fire and control and that can do the job as well. Can this BM be loaded on OSA type boats so that the blast in Karachi or Gawadar would be spectacular.rgds, fanne

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 21 Sep 2001 21:55

<A HREF="http://www.timesofindia.com/articleshow ... =641465650" TARGET=_blank>http://www.timesofindia.com/articleshow ... 1465650</A> >>India's first indigenous medium range, ship-to-ship missile, Dhanus, was on Friday flight tested from a naval carrier near the Orissa coast. Well in official parlays Prithvi is classified short range BM with a range of between 150 to 250Km. Agni is classifed as Intermediate range of between 1500Km and 2500Km. Now they report Dhanus as the first indigenous medium range missile. That means this class of missile (medium range) will have a range more then 250 Km and less then 1500Km. So this reported range of 150 km is BS. Once we get the picture of the missiles and weight, it would be easier to estimate it capabilities based on typical rocket parmaters of similar missiles. I am very confident that Dhanush will turn out to be ~500km range missile w/ 1 Ton or more payload.As for its antiship role, obviously it requires space and / or air based targeting assets, and BM with terminal guidence will more then take care of relatively show moving target like a ship.Interesting times ahead on Indian missile front. Removal of arms embargo will further accelarate the schdule.

L Beeson · Post by **L Beeson** » 21 Sep 2001 21:58

IIRC, wasn't there talk of "Sagarika" being test fired in September?I'd suspect that 'Dhanus(h)' is the code name for Sagarika as it evolves from the Prithvi to an SLBM. This a surface to surface ballistic missile. I can't imagine it being used against ships equipped with The Abdul MkIV J (for Jihad) band radar.

Vamsee · Post by **Vamsee** » 21 Sep 2001 22:08

Akash testfired. Dhanush testfired.' Love to see Agni-III testfired soon.

Kuttan · Post by **Kuttan** » 21 Sep 2001 22:14

Actually a good time to test anything. Including the "CEP" of "reaching out and touching" some of those terrorist (Oops! I mean "friendly non-Afghan-based and hence non-existent") camps around Lahore and Muzzafarabad. They'll think its a BIG fuel tank dropped from one of the PAF F-16s, which seem to be dropping parts as they fly around.

durvasa · Post by **durvasa** » 21 Sep 2001 22:15

Also on agenda next week!! LCA-II maiden flight!!

LCA flight should be around the same time pukis get what they always wished!! Lots of Block 60 F-16, that pukis have already paid for, buzzing in their air space.

Rudra · Post by **Rudra** » 21 Sep 2001 22:18

er, I was about to say what Lbeeson said. Sagarika was supposed to be tested in Sept01.congrats to L&T and DRDO if true.

venkat_r · Post by **venkat_r** » 21 Sep 2001 22:31

I am very confident that Dhanush will turn out to be ~500km range missile w/ 1 Ton or more payloadArun, This might not be so, as it seems more likely that it is a naval version of Prithvi. We do not have a medium range surface to surface missile yet, so the naval version of it coming out first is far fetched.

Vick · Post by **Vick** » 21 Sep 2001 22:39

IMO, Dhanush is more of a tech test bed for the future SLBM. It is utterly useless to create a Ship/Sub LBM that is less than 1000km unless of course the IN is happy playing a tactical role. If the IN wants to play a strategic role i.e. nuclear deterence then it must have a strategic missle.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Sep 2001 22:47

The prithvi program had various options- 150, 250 and 350 km range. The early version was 1 t payload. The next version was with .5 t payload and was slated for IAF. They liked it but balked at the puny payload. So next product improvement was to switch the fuel from the SA-2 ungodly mix to that used in the ISRO liquid fuel rocket program. This was to deliver the full paylaod to stated range. So may not be too far off the mark. Also if they can handle ships than stationary targets are not so difficult. Is there any linkage to the Stratmag article about electro-optical seeker heads quest? This does add to the Indian version of MND. The barbarians think that they can threaten with their medeival (medevil)named fire crackers, than the might get hit from the sea. Might not meet superpower stds but good enough for the purpose. Interstingly unlike before, there are no stories of veering off course etc. So lets see what the other papers report.

shyamala · Post by **shyamala** » 21 Sep 2001 23:07

Long term, I guess we need SLCM that can target Other adversaries bordering us. The question is does Dhanush range can be modified and put in operational to reach such targets?Furthermore, none of the media links says anything about the flight test result - success/partial or complete?Another link that says it is 150 miles <A HREF="http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/holnus/01211815.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/holn ... 815.htm</A> Does anybody know how Dhanush looks like? Please don't show the prithvi

durvasa · Post by **durvasa** » 21 Sep 2001 23:10

shyamala,from your provided link only! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The telemetry and tracking network have established that the technology demonstrator (missile) met its entire mission objective ," a Defence Ministry spokesman said. The missile had been tracked right from its take off till the impact point at sea. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I guess this means that launch was successful!

shyamala · Post by **shyamala** » 21 Sep 2001 23:22

sorry for the confusion: Question: SLCM - does it mean "ship" launched or "submarine" launched or "sea"?

Roop · Post by **Roop** » 21 Sep 2001 23:45

SLCM = Submarine-Launched Cruise Missile.

member_3097 · Post by **member_3097** » 22 Sep 2001 00:26

The Hindu in its <A HREF="http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/holnus/01211815.htm" TARGET=_blank>updated news section</A> reports the range of the missile to be 250 Km whereas the Times of India says that it is 150 Km. Are the media confused about Km and Miles conversion ?<quote>Known as the naval version of the surface-to-surface 'Prithvi' missile, the 8.56 metre-long Dhanush has a strike range of 250 km. </quote>150 Mile = (150 * 1.609)Km = 241.35 KmWhich one is right ? Just less then two weeks ago, when Akash was test-fired, one Indian Newspaper reported the range to be 8 Km! Whereas everyone knows that Akash has a range of 25-27 Km [ 15 Mile ].It is good to see the series of missile testings especially against the backdrop of the bogey of terrorism sponsored by the terrorists belonging to the nations in the neighbourhood of India. First it was Nag, then Akash, then Dhanush. Probably Astra [ BVRAAM ] will be test-fired in the very near future as Jashwant Singh recently mentioned soon. Agni-III is coming up next January-Februray, 2001. Wasn't the SAGARIKA supposed to be test-fired in September ?The Fas website has amalgamated the Sagarika and Dhanush to a new one. Here is the Report.<A HREF="http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/india/mis ... garika.htm" TARGET=_blank>Sagarika / Dhanush</A>

shyamala · Post by **shyamala** » 22 Sep 2001 00:39

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mohan Raju: SLCM = Submarine-Launched Cruise Missile.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Interesting, this link says it is "SEA" <A HREF="http://www.amiinter.com/samples/india/4nuclearsub.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.amiinter.com/samples/india/4 ... ub.html</A>

shyamala · Post by **shyamala** » 22 Sep 2001 00:46

According to Jane's - Rahul Bedi claims that Dhanush is 150 km naval variant of Prithvi. However, another report claims that Dhanush is a 350km/1-ton payload prithvi variant for the navy. The second report is the more recent one - December 2000. So, we will have to wait till JDW comenb49.pdf" TARGET=_blank>http://www.ppnn.soton.ac.uk/nb49.pdf</A> it is 250kms/160 miles.

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 24 Sep 2001 13:32

From the above link's db64.pdf, it appears that Agni-III & Agni-IV will require a better heatshield. So this will be new.Also this document states 3700 Kms & 5000 Kms as the ranges for Agni-III & Agni-IV respectively, whereas the TNT link states Agni-III range to be 5000 Kms.I suspect TNT got all mixed up for there is more it it than meets the eye. I suspect that AgniIII will have a range of 3700 Kms & not 5000 Kms. But then again a Agni-III with a lighter payload can achieve the Agni-IV range.Time to put out a call for Arun_S.BTW, this thread now is a Dhanush & Agni thread in no small measure to my contribution. Apologies. Raguvamshi, would you consider my request to re-name this thread to a Missile Discussion thread. I am loathe to start a new thread as the Agni launch, if it happens, is as long way off.But I do recognise that this is your thread & I am happy to shut up if you want.Thanks

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 24 Sep 2001 15:52

I think the Dhanush in itsd present form is a pure TECHNOLOGY DEMONSTRATOR.I do not see any use for a ship-to-ship ballstic missile. At the most it can be used for ship-to-shore role. But we can use any of the existing anti-shipping missiles as we did in 1971 with the SS-N-2 Styx.Ultimately, Dhanush will be submarine launched missile, paving the way for a true SLBM.Regards Kersi

Amitabh · Post by **Amitabh** » 25 Sep 2001 01:44

Does anyone have pictures of the BrahMos PJ-10 on display in Moscow?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 25 Sep 2001 08:29

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Amitabh: Does anyone have pictures of the BrahMos PJ-10 on display in Moscow?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Amitabh I may be wrong, but my source at MAKS told me that there were no photos of Brhamos there..but that Brahmos has promised him photos. If you can get your hands on them before, that would be great.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Sep 2001 08:48

There was a video of the PJ-10 taking off and doing its turn. So a pix was released soon after the test.

venkat_r · Post by **venkat_r** » 25 Sep 2001 09:44

This is a good interview to look at some data. <A HREF="http://www.ada.gov.in/others/news/event ... aatre.html" TARGET=_blank>Interview with Dr. V.A. Aatre, SA to Defence Minister</A> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> What about the Indo-Russian supersonic cruise missile, Brahmastra, which was test fired recently? We will have number of flights and depending on the progress, by 2003-2004 we may have it ready for use. The status of Brahmos cruise missile?Brahmos completed its first trial. Itwill require some more time . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> :p

member_128 · Post by **member_128** » 25 Sep 2001 11:32

Danush makes sense.. Difficult to intercept.. whereas terminal guidance systems (depending on the guidance) could be jammed including the Exocets / Styx etc

Amitabh · Post by **Amitabh** » 26 Sep 2001 03:34

Here are some PJ-10 details gleaned from Jane's website: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>A collaborative project by India's Defense Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and the Russian design and production company NPO Mashinostroyenia (formerly OKB-52) from Reutov, the BrahMos Joint-Venture was set up in February 1998 and is registered in India. The name BrahMos is derived from the name of the Indian god Brahma and the Russian capital Moscow...The PJ-10 is a supersonic cruise missile suitable for launch from land, sea or air platforms. At sea, the PJ-10 can be launched from submarines and ships, while air-launch would be from multirole combat aircraft such as the Su-30MKI. The ground launcher uses a self-propelled wheeled vehicle based in a lengthened Tatra T816 chassis similar to the new 9A52-2T launcher for the Smerch MLRS (see 'Smerch MLRS offered on lengthened Tatra chassis' on page 7 of this issue). A stationary silo-based coastal defence version is also being studied. The missile will fly supersonically throughout its mission, descending to low level for the final attack. Several types of flight trajectory can be used. In all cases, the relatively short flight time will minimise both the time to target destruction, and the amount by which the target will have moved since missile launch. The PJ-10 has an identical configuration for land, sea and sub-sea launching platforms. It will be vertically launched from a TPK (Transportno-Puskovoy Konteyner) transport-launching container. The system uses cold-launch and offers full 360º coverage...India will use its new Kamov Ka-31 helicopters to acquire targets for the PJ-10. These helicopters are fitted with the Yastreb decimeter-wavelength search radar. (Yastreb is the export designation of the Oko radar.) The first test launch of the PJ-10 was a trial designated BrahMos D 01 and was carried out on 12 July at the Chandipur Interim Test Range in Orissa, India. Serial production will be split 50:50 between the Russian and Indian industries, and the first production round is due to be built in India during 2003. In Russia, production will be at NPO Strela in Orenburg, with the half-completed missiles being delivered to NPO Mashinostroyenia for final assembly. Total production capacity will be up to 200 missiles per year.Missile specifications Length: 8.1m Length of transport/launch container: 9.0m Diameter: 67cm Launch weight: 3,000kg Range: 50-300km Propulsion: ramjet with integral rocket booster Maximum speed: Mach 2.5-2.8 Maximum cruise height: 14,000-15,000m Height above the sea during final attack: 10-15m Guidance: inertial + passive or active radar homing Warhead: 200kg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This image probably won't show for non-subscribers, but let me try anyway: <A HREF="http://online.janes.com/janesdata/mags/ ... 118015.jpg" TARGET=_blank>PJ-10 image</A>

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Sep 2001 10:17

Dhanush is mainly meant for a land attack role.While it is theoretically possible for the missile to be configured for an attack against warships,it's hevay payload indicates that it is meant to strike at land targets from a considerable distance offshore.It is an operational missile that can be launched from a variety of ships .All that these ships need is a helo deck and hangarand the neccessary electronic sytems associated with command,communications,etc.It can obviously carry a nuclear payload if needed.In this sense it is not a technology demonstrator,but future variants will definitely be configured,designed for underwater launch.Dhanush is the first step in the IN getting it's land attack weaponry in order.

Amitabh · Post by **Amitabh** » 26 Sep 2001 21:22

In the December 2000 Jane's Intelligence Review, Steven Zaloga says that the Club-S, like the Club-N, is the supersonic version of the missile. The subsonic version remains under development.Can anyone confirm (?) this, since I was under the impression that the Club-S carried by the Kilo subs is the subsonic version.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Sep 2001 21:45

testing(not a missile, though)