Ground Based Radars of the IAF

bhart · Post by **bhart** » 09 Apr 2003 12:15

I don't think we have ever discussed this. Let me list a few of the radars-
1) THD 1955 -> Range- 1000km
2) TRS 2215D -> Range 510km
3) Green Pine -> Range ?
4) PSM 33 Mk2 -> An Indian version of TRS 2215D, so capabilities should be similar.
5) Rajendra -> Range 120km, can track upto 100 targets simultaneously. In service?
6) ST 68U -> Range 320km
7) P 15 -> Range - 128 km

P18/19
9) Reporter
10) Indra II (name corrected later)

The SBM article on strategic air defences is very informative. But, it was written a long time ago. Since then, our sensor networks seem to have undergone several upgrades. One example would be that of the radars etc associated with the S 125 system. An article in 2001, in The Hindu had stated that a contract had been awarded to a company from Poland, to replace the processing eqpt. Question is, what happened to the upgrades to the ECCM capabilities of these systems, and also have there been some additions to the list ( new eqpt.).
BTW, didn't we sign a deal with the Americans, for an aerostat system?

Please post information from public domain sources only - Admin

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 09 Apr 2003 12:50

Given time, we have some pictures of the IAF Radar systems of different types which I will scan and post over the next weekend (if this thread survives tillthen).

If I remember we have the TRS, STS68 , Pechora's MAR and the P19 pics as well as the OSA-AK System's pics.

Sorry I am clueless about the technicalities of the systems.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 09 Apr 2003 12:50

number 2 is 2215D .
4 bought and 5 produced under license..

Then there is
THD-1955
IRS-2015
P 30
P 35
P 40

Maybe an article on radar's ?

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 09 Apr 2003 13:00

more info about it can be found at

http://www.military.great-ride.com/TRS.htm

The pakis are supposed to have them too.

The information provided in the page above is from Jane's unless jane's copied them, which seems unlikely.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 09 Apr 2003 13:04

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2001/20010607/world.htm

India’s own missile defence systems, Akash and Trishul, would not be ready for the country’s military in another four years, the report said.

As part of its plans for upgradation and modernisation, the Indian Air Force was looking for additional mobile air defence systems for the protection of air fields, ammunition depots and other strategic installations, it said.

Its six THD-1955 and six IRS-2015 control reporting systems would be upgraded. The service would also install 50 Indira II medium range detection radar systems built by Bharat Electronics, Bangalore, and would digitise 50 units of the Pechora air defence systems, the report said.

The Air Force, it says, uses about 200 P 30, P 35 and P 40 low level detection radars, which it intends to replace with Indira II in the next five to 10 years. PTI

ehsmang · Post by **ehsmang** » 09 Apr 2003 15:09

I think this is a very important topic , not discussed often due to its technical nature.

I dont know how advanced the Iraqi air defence radars / missiles are. But, the fact that they have managed to shoot ( with missiles not Ack Ack)down 2 USAF planes which surely must have been packed with good ECCM suites does speak about the potency of ground based AD systems.

How does the Indian AD stack up against potential adversary and vice versa is of considerable interest.

advitya · Post by **advitya** » 09 Apr 2003 16:39

There is NO radar called Indira. It is the INDRA!

bhart · Post by **bhart** » 09 Apr 2003 18:56

About the P 35,

If you guys remember, Star News had shown a little news item on the Air Defence network of the IAF 2 or 3 years ago . They showed a pair of Mirage 2000s taking of for an intercept, and most importantly, showed a command site, in a bunker, with a SOPHISTICATED control system and display, with target designation and some other parameters, shown along with the position of the target, on a grid in the display.
Does anybody have any idea about what kind(s) of radar system(s) would be used for such work,i.e. controlling aircraft.
Also, it seems, that we have a few V-75 systems that are operational. Is there any record of them being upgraded, in terms of processing eqpt. and other things, and what is their specific use?
It was reported after the Kosovo war, that Yugoslav V-75 units had detected the path followed by the F 117 that they had shot down.

Please post only open source information - Admin

Rudra · Post by **Rudra** » 09 Apr 2003 19:17

I need details on the vintage of these radars too. a 1960s radar isnt equal to a 1990s set in terms of processing power & ECCM, even though raw range can be same.

Invetory numbers would be good also.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 09 Apr 2003 19:47

Gentlemen,
Most radars are now of 1970s-1980s vintage.

Some Thales radars were procured last year to supplement the THD-1955.

Upgrades have been periodically done including digitizing and upgrading ECCM features.

Much work needs to be done still.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 10 Apr 2003 01:40

The IAF is pretty happy with the Indra 2's so is moving to get them in reasonable numbers.
But for mountainous terrain,the Indra 2 wont suffice.So we are looking into specific Israeli/Euro(Thales-thomson/csf) radars for that purpose.
All Indian radars now have access to state of the art color LCD displays for user interface.No worries on that score.
Per developers,even Indra 2 is past benchmark and they have moved on.CAR for example utilises better tech and processing power.S/W driven.
What should be done is to get BEL up and cracking and upgrade older systems with/without Eqpt supplier(if recalcitarnt,without).We have the ability.Whats needed is a bit of will.For example like Mohanty's boot to Smiths when they acted smart on Jags.
Of course,our main grouse is/are funds.
Improved Reporter is also pretty capable-had a look see during AI.
Combines a TV Camera with the basic radar.Nice LCD display to boot.A bit cramped but what'dya expect given the size.

Rudra · Post by **Rudra** » 10 Apr 2003 02:23

at what level does REPORTER fit into this menagerie ? is
it planned to be produced outside of Akash as a
compact surveillance radar ?

note: US supplied raytheon long-range radars to
Pak are all of early 1980s vintage and will surely
be upgraded now to latest mark. in addition latest mark aerostat radars supplied.

to achieve info dominance ways must be found to
neutralize these.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 10 Apr 2003 02:36

Look in the I/2003 issue of Vayu Aerospace Review and an upcoming issue of the Indian Defence Review for articles on this.

Reporter is operated by CADA to facilitate low level detection and is generally linked to L-40/70 batteries alongside low-altitude SAMs.

Nitin, BEL is not sitting idly by. Who do you think upgraded the THD-1955 and is working on the ST-68U ?

Rudra, you don't give the Indian armed forces any credit. They know about those Raytheon radars and exactly how to take them off-line. The Pak Aerostats are currently deployed on the Afghan border and can be dealt with if they are moved.

Again, don't think the IAF hasn't considered how to take the Pak. AD grid offline. In fact, it would take perhaps 10 days and then the Pak radar grid would cease to exist as anything coherent - if it existed at all.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 10 Apr 2003 03:01

cy_baru, I do. I just wrote to them and they sent the subscription forms.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 10 Apr 2003 03:19

Originally posted by Sanjay:
Look in the I/2003 issue of Vayu Aerospace Review and an upcoming issue of the Indian Defence Review for articles on this.

Reporter is operated by CADA to facilitate low level detection and is generally linked to L-40/70 batteries alongside low-altitude SAMs.

Nitin, BEL is not sitting idly by. Who do you think upgraded the THD-1955 and is working on the ST-68U ?

Rudra, you don't give the Indian armed forces any credit. They know about those Raytheon radars and exactly how to take them off-line. The Pak Aerostats are currently deployed on the Afghan border and can be dealt with if they are moved.

Again, don't think the IAF hasn't considered how to take the Pak. AD grid offline. In fact, it would take perhaps 10 days and then the Pak radar grid would cease to exist as anything coherent - if it existed at all.

Good on you Sanjay.To be fair to BEL,they do have some pretty good Indian made systems in their kitty now-in which they have done their bit.
What improvements were made on the THD 1955 and the ST-68U?
I would surmise they also went in for changing the user interface from the older clunky Analogue displays to modern color LCD ones.
On the core performance issue-better ECM/ECCM and processing power?Is it being on astand alone basis or are the OEM involved?
One thing-they suck at PR.Darn website itself isnt updated.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 10 Apr 2003 03:46

Originally posted by Sanjay:
cy_baru, I do. I just wrote to them and they sent the subscription forms.

Website ? Or snail mail ?
Could you tell me more about it at [email protected]

chaitanya · Post by **chaitanya** » 10 Apr 2003 04:18

whats the range of CAR?

Rudra · Post by **Rudra** » 10 Apr 2003 07:06

>Rudra, you don't give the Indian armed forces
>any credit.

Dont misunderstand me - I am always in favour of
landing 30 slaps if 1 is needed. I am on the same
team as you are , just more virulent.

chaitanya · Post by **chaitanya** » 10 Apr 2003 07:18

and if anyone has the data, what is the range of the indigenous WLR?

ehsmang · Post by **ehsmang** » 10 Apr 2003 09:48

Kindly refrain from posting or asking for such details- Admin

rajivg · Post by **rajivg** » 10 Apr 2003 09:55

PLEASE DO NOT POST POWER, FREQUENCIES AND RANGE OF DIFFERENT RADAR SYSTEMS!

This is a very touchy subject. It could cost the lives of men and material.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 10 Apr 2003 10:06

Originally posted by rajivg:
PLEASE DO NOT POST POWER, FREQUENCIES AND RANGE OF DIFFERENT RADAR SYSTEMS!

This is a very touchy subject. It could cost the lives of men and material.

You are joking right?

Nothing that India has is de novo apart from the Indra ,Rajendra et al.And even those have had their details released by the powwers that be..Just open a Janes radar systems guide and you'll have all the data on power ,Range and frequencies.
Provided by the manufacturers themselves,to whit.

This secrecy shindig is taken to ridiculous extremes at times,i'm afraid.

If someone has the above data culled from an outrageously priced collation of marketting data-which is what Janes is-let him put it on this thread for the benefit of all.

Regards,
Nitin

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 10 Apr 2003 10:30

Guys,

Technical specifications like power, range etc are in most cases open source. They can be posted and discussed. There is nothing of 'National IMportance' here.

Its only with details like field deployments and network structure - reporting structure etc which can probably be left untouched.

Jagan

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 10 Apr 2003 10:49

Sanjay..

1. If PSM 33 Mk II is a 2215 Derivative, how come they look so different. The 2215 seems like a phased array radar, whereas the PSM has parabolic reflector type arrangement.

2. Do we have ST 68UM or just the ST 68U ? There doesn't seem to be much difference between either of those and 36D6 adr. they all seem to have same ranges and functionality.

Deducing from the janes book and Aero-india site, Indra is GRL 600 and Indra II is GRL 610 ADR. The range given is 50kms and 90 Kms respectively.

bhart · Post by **bhart** » 10 Apr 2003 12:34

To the admin- everything that I had posted was information available to the public. Whatever I have posted is available on sites like globalsecurity.org and fas.org and several books. I had checked before posting.

Rudra · Post by **Rudra** » 10 Apr 2003 16:56

yes lets see the Janes data if anyone has access.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 10 Apr 2003 18:23

Every bit of data here is openly available.

PSM combined features of TRS 2215 with a cheaper antenna. There were other reasons for that choice too but right now I can't put my hands on them.

ST-68 seems the same as that 36D6 radar in appearance.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 10 Apr 2003 23:22

>>Dont misunderstand me - I am always in favour of landing 30 slaps if 1 is needed.

rajivg · Post by **rajivg** » 11 Apr 2003 00:03

Yes. I understand Jane's has data available, but collating the information makes it too easy for the enemy. I would suspect that BEL has probably modidified transmission characteristics of the different radar systems, just in case to make systems more effective against counter measures.

Its not a matter of secrecy, but reconfirming transmission characteristics makes me very nervous. Its one thing to say certain radars exist, and altogether a different thing to specify transmission. Janes could be wrong or right about some systems, but if its reconfirmed here, then it could point to a particular modification of an existing radar. I would just as soon drop off the power, freq and range data.

Rajiv...

Rudra · Post by **Rudra** » 11 Apr 2003 00:56

I doubt anyone here was planning to post BEL internal docs. they would just read from Janes and other books to enlighten the needy.

surely with Uncles grants & loans the PA subscribes to Janes no ?

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 11 Apr 2003 01:02

Hello-Janes has data on ALL the systems mentioned here.

All that any PAF officer has to do is open one.

Any defence institute worth its salt has editions of Janes.

BEL SUPPLIES data on its systems.At Aeroindia they were doing so.
Mores the pity it went to the wrong hands,namely people who used brochures for peanut carraige.

Heres some stuff-on the Indra .

FEATURES
Fully coherent system
Frequency agility
Pulse compression
Advanced signal processing using MTD and CFAR Techniques
Track while scan for 2-D tracking
Full tracking capabilities for manoeuvering targets
Multicolour PPI Raster Scan Display, presenting both MTI and Synthetic Video
Integral IFF
Ease of transportation and fast deployment.

SYSTEM CHARACTERISTICS
Range upto 90 km (for fighter aircraft)
Height coverage 35m to 3000m subject to Radar horizon.
Probability of detection 90% (Single scan).
Probability of false alarm 10-6
Track While Scan (TWS) for 2D tracking. Capability to handle 200 tracks.
Association of primary and secondary targets.
Automatic target data transmission to a digital modem/networking of radars.
Deployment time of about 60 minutes.

Where did i get it from?
http://www.bel-india.com/radar11.htm

If anyone posts Janes data and its wrong and pakis take it to be true.Even better.

All this makes it too easy for the enemy business would be true only if it werent already too easy.

And to reiterate since you didnt quite get what i said-Janes publishes data mostly sourced from the manufacturers who look upon Janes,Brasseys etc as free publicity.

This INCLUDES Thomson CSF,Assorted russian manufacturers and even BEL(to a degree-they dont even bother updating their website).

There is nothing to be nervous about.Period.

Sunil · Post by **Sunil** » 11 Apr 2003 01:45

I am extremely sorry to intrude onto this discussion of people who clearly know a lot about the subject, however I have the following request.

Sourcing the information helps

1) keep the discussion at a verifiable level so that no allegations can later be levelled about improper conduct and

2) makes the thread archivable and useful for people who may want to write an article on the issue at a later date.

The culture of secrecy in Government in India is not something any of us on BR can be reasonably expected to do something about. It is a reality that we must all accept and live with. So I suggest the following.

a) Please do not ask or release information about deployments of radar squadrons.

b) Whenever posting any details about a system, please post a source.

c) If you have an opinion about something, say a system then kindly keep the opinion well segregated from open source facts.

Some posters here have considerable experience in distinguishing between what is or isn't of national importance but not everybody is capable of making choice with the same maturity. So please be careful.

I really like this thread so far and Inshaallah the day will come when we will turn the THD-1955 to full power and roast some chickens in Islamabad and Lhassa, but until then, caution never hurt anyone.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 11 Apr 2003 01:51

Cy,my mails acting up -do t'morrow?Its 1:00 am here.

To repeat what SUnil said:

Name,source.And name and source should be "open"-ie no my friend said,my brother saw etc.
Everything published should be ok as long as its avaialble to all and not some "secret" document.

If someone comes across some path breaking advance/acquisition while going through unrelated stuff-keep it to yourself.

I think these would be sufficient "rules of engagement?"

Regards,
N

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 11 Apr 2003 02:49

Gentlemen, those of you who have a copy of my book, check the footnotes of the relevant section.

Those who don't, wait a while and an IDR article will appear shortly with footnotes.

Rudra · Post by **Rudra** » 11 Apr 2003 06:36

where is bhavanis original post that sparked the
debate ? anyway comrades time to get off the vodka and do some real "spy" work.

I distinctly remember during defexpo2001(?) the
Reporter prototype was being displayed and some
BR members were invited by a gentleman inside
who showed the consoles. it was using Win xx on
display consoles.

Indra-II then is a 2D radar which indicates
lotsa hostile tracks but not 3D, so not useful
for guidance to interceptors ?

Sunil · Post by **Sunil** » 12 Apr 2003 02:42

What is the difference between an ATC radar and an AD radar in India?

Rudra · Post by **Rudra** » 12 Apr 2003 02:49

AD radars will incorporate IFF. ATC radars have
this transponder thing that commerical planes voluntarily turn on to identify who they are ?

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 12 Apr 2003 05:31

From what the CO of a Radar Unit told me and that can be shared here:

AD Radar's are much more capable in tracking and acquisition. A TRS Radar on a clear day can pick up vehicles moving on a road in the desert at a distance of 150km. Certainly beyond the scope of ATC radars. Some of the AD Radars like those belonging to SAM Units can just "lock" onto a single target. i.e instead of rotating 360 degrees, the radar would just point at the target and paint it while a missile is zooming onto the target. In the case of the SAM Unit, it will have two radars. i.e. one normal STS or P-19 rotating type and an MGR (Missile Guidance Radar) which will lock the launcher onto the target. SEAD aircraft are designed to take out the MGRs first and later move onto the other AD radars like the STS or the TRS.

Sunil · Post by **Sunil** » 12 Apr 2003 09:30

Jagan,

That reminds me of an interesting story I heard recently of someone sitting by the window of a commercial jetliner as it came in to land at an airport in India. The passenger watched with some discomfort as a haan-haan-nah-nah nodded away at the airplane as it landed.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 12 Apr 2003 09:35

Originally posted by sunil s:
Jagan,

So is the MGR or the P-19 the han-han-na-na?

Sunil, Neither. I saw the HHNN only at the Pune ATC.

The MGR was the contraption we saw in one of those pictures that turned up on Yahoo during the deployment. It was in a series ofpictures that showed a Pechora battery.

The P-19 was an older one. It looks like a set of horizontal radio aerials that is rotated over a Zil Truck. There was no customary "Dish" antenna as we see in the TRS, STS or the Indra. Its an old radar which will be phased out soon.