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Radar - Specs & Discussions

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Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 15 Feb 2007 01:53


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Postby SaiK » 15 Feb 2007 03:47

SaiK wrote:
http://media.bharat-rakshak.com/aero/ma ... temId=4216

I counted 904 t/r modules!


Pit commented in his article "Mig - new developments" in the Fulcrum mag that it has 680modules !!!

Pit -- can you comment on that !!!

siva wrote: It has 680 modules only. SaiK check again (28x8 + 24x12 + 20x4 + 16x4 + 12x2).

sorry, you are correct siva: i doubled the center one, thiis i made 28x8 twice, and hence 904. it is 680. my boo boo.

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Postby Igorr » 16 Feb 2007 05:36

The Russian fighter, which has radar with the impulse phased antenna cascade, for the first time was demonstrated at the air show in bangalor (India).

9 February. INTERFAKS-AVN - at the airshow in India Russia for the first time presents abroad fighter MiG-35, equipped with radar with the impulse phased antenna cascade (APAR). "this radar gives to fighter new military characteristics, significantly enlarges its possibilities", said to "interfaks-AVN" the first deputy design project leader – the chief designer of corporation "synchro-cyclotron -NIIR" Yuri gus'kov.

In radar APAR the range rises approximately on 50%. Electronic scanning makes it possible to simultaneously ensure regime "air-to-air" and "air-surface", to work with the group and individual targets, to determine their type and class. APAR, for example, makes it possible to determine is this F -16 or MiG-21,

MiG-29 and so forth according to Yu.Gus'kova, are today made two models of APAR. Monolithic integrated circuits compose their basis. "The merit APAR lies in the fact that in each radiating element stands transmitter. In the passive phased lattice, which also possesses the merit of electronic control of ray, one transmitter, and, therefore, its reliability is considerably below. It is calculated by 60-120 hours. In APAR we have 680 transmitters and failures even of 10 percent of transmitters it does not sharply worsen the characteristic of radar ", - explained Yu.Gus'kov.

He noted that the reliability of the APAR can be estimated by 10 thousand hours. "today we declare 600-900 hours, only because it is necessary to work out this new technology", said the collocutor of agency.

He reported that into APAR is used the high speed computer, capable of performing approximately 50 billion simple operations. This makes it possible to conduct the most complex the processing of radar signal, obtaining in this case a good permission, distinguishing targets , even if they are located in the group at a distance of 35-50 it is meter from each other.

Yu.Gus'kov reported that in the APAR, established on MiG-35, are 680 radiating channels. Subsequently their quantity can compose 1064, and in the APAR that is intended for Su-30 -, up to two thousands. "today the cost of one channel is equal to approximately 400 dollars. With the mass production it will be below ", it said Yu.Gus'kov.

He reported that the element base established on the MiG-35 APAR is completely domestic. "our APAR does not be inferior to foreign analogs, but it is considerably cheaper. Actually APAR on the aircraft had only USA and France, and now also Russia ", - noted A.Gus'kov. "The construction of the APAR was made in such a way that it can be investigated and be gathered as children's designer Lego",- said Yu.Gus'kov.

According to him, the established on MiG-35 APAR is completely combined with the system of the power supply of fighter and with the cooling system. "this - it is very important, since APAR can be derived from the system immediately. In order the element will not burn down, we cant allow cooling to cease, in such case the temperature to not rise 500, 400 or even 300 degrees, or all this is burnt. A radar with APAR that costs millions of dollars can be burnt during the time less than one second ", said Yu.Gus'kov. He reported that next year (2008) the final version of the APAR for of multipurpose fighter MiG-35 is planned to be made. (translated from Russian , source: http://www.roe.ru/roe_ru/news/lenty/lent_07_02_12.html )

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Postby SaiK » 16 Feb 2007 06:30

cool..

any information on the APAR's features in terms of roles - or is it only FCR?

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Postby Dileep » 16 Feb 2007 06:43

I have seen a better xlation of this article somewhere. Will try to locate it.

Added got it http://forum.keypublishing.com/showpost.php?p=1080604&postcount=30

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Postby SaiK » 16 Feb 2007 06:52

wondering why the russians having a sound industrial base, did not venture into GaN, that might have increased the power 10times GaAs, and at much lower temp at a factor of 2.?

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Postby Arun_S » 16 Feb 2007 09:09

Dileep pls check out my radar pics from AI07. There was something new fromRuskies the Zuke-MFE (my pic file name P1020505.JPG).

http://media.bharat-rakshak.com/aero/ma ... temId=6272

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Postby SaiK » 16 Feb 2007 10:08


Igorr, if you can read the russian language in this pic, what does it say?

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Postby SaiK » 16 Feb 2007 10:25

http://media.bharat-rakshak.com/aero/ma ... temId=7322
never mind.. its the Zhuk-MFE phased array antenna

its a phased array.. real beam mapping, SAR, simul x2 gnd targets, a-a x20 target tracking.. peak power 9kw, av 1.5kw, head on 120km, tail 60km, look down 110, tail down 50, sea targ 200km, ... air & liquid cooling, etc..

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Postby SaiK » 16 Feb 2007 10:31

discount the last readings from Arun's pics..

there is a better pic here.
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/9068 ... 29m1mx.jpg
don't need to say any more

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Postby Igorr » 16 Feb 2007 14:25

SaiK wrote:

Igorr, if you can read the russian language in this pic, what does it say?
-That is about the NIIR's radar Zhuk-MFE with the Passive array. The specs for the active array radar Zhuk-AE is here: Image

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Postby rakall » 16 Feb 2007 14:37

A better version of the Zhuk-AE radar (Igorr's photo is a little blurred)

Image

and the Zhuk-ME that goes on Mig29K

Image

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Postby maitya » 16 Feb 2007 18:01

Reg Zhuk-MAE, all these fantastic claim about +/- 60 deg scan angle being achieved etc ... are there any independent verifiable proof of that being achieved. I mean they tried will non-linear distn approach, but gave up on it due to the complexities involved. I'd still wait for scan-range and track-range figures for > 45deg scan-angle.

What say Dileep?

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Postby maitya » 16 Feb 2007 18:12

rakall wrote:... and the Zhuk-ME that goes on Mig29K

Image

What "liquid cooling" for as slotted array? :shock: For the TWT, I guess ...

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Postby SaiK » 16 Feb 2007 20:27

how come the eltans managed to track 64 tracks simultaneosly?.. as compared to zhuk-a. .. and their range must be larger too, since their PA 2032s can do 80 nm., and its a safe bet for 2052 to do 120-150 nm. a 200-230km a-a is fantastic.

plus, what is the number of receivers in zhuk-a only 3? is that enough to the multiple roles it needs to support. may be i don't understand..

+ i don't read SAR mappings and any info on DBS and other beam mapping, that is mentioned in zhuk-mfe (just reading the spec infor.. i understanding the features may be assumed to be present).
--

on an orthogonal thought.. if we have digitized SAR maps read from HDD or disk storage.. how much of the AESA-SAR mappings can be fused with sat maps, so that it helps in map freezing, analysing the type of target, and take appropriate counter measures.. (i guess part of the AWACs features (int gathering) can be done?




:!: :?:

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Postby SaiK » 18 Feb 2007 05:28


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Postby Dileep » 18 Feb 2007 09:33

Thanx guys for the info on the Zhuks.

Is the spiral array on the MFE REALLY correspond to the emitting elements. It doesn't look like it. Is that a dcal?

I am REALLY concerned about the spec of 3 receivers. The range/azimuth resolution figure is also a concern. In general, I have a suspicion that it may not be as great as they claim it is.

I hope they got the 60Deg scan right. We may never know.

It looks like the modules are much bigger than other AESAs. This might point to use of Hybrids instead of MMIC. The result will be more heat, and less coherence in the beam. They did claim COTS in modules. That kind of point to use of discretes.

Whom am I kidding? At least we have this infoboard on the Zhuk. Was the 2052 in the expo? Is there an infoboard?

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Postby Dileep » 18 Feb 2007 09:35

The infoboard on BFSR says it uses Windoze NT!

ARE THEY OUTTA THEIR MIND!!!!!

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Postby Singha » 18 Feb 2007 09:54

windows has the advantage of easy tools like VB or VC++ permiting rapid prototying and development of interactive applications. I have lost track whether a linux box has similar tools (and pls dont suggest x-motif programming!)

the BFSR processing box probably has a embedded kernel like nucleus/vxworks etc. the WinNT/Win2K is a decent choice for the controlling terminal PC :lol:

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Postby Singha » 18 Feb 2007 09:57

how come the eltans managed to track 64 tracks simultaneosly?

thats only their design goal. no reliable word on how their testing on boeing tested is working out, what has been met and timeline for entering service, plus cost. IAF cannot afford a $15 mil radar for a $35 mil plane.

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Postby Austin » 18 Feb 2007 10:32

windows has the advantage of easy tools like VB or VC++ permiting rapid prototying and development of interactive applications. I have lost track whether a linux box has similar tools


Perl , Tcl/Tk , Python,Ruby (on rails ), Ocaml , Java
Many of this are portable and can move across Linux or Windoze :)

I strongly abhor the use of Windoze in our defence services , Knowing all too well its present and past history , Specially when you have an opensource alternative which can be heavily customised to meet the needs of users across all spectrum.

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Postby milindc » 18 Feb 2007 12:21

IAF to acquire air-to-air BVR missiles
IAF to acquire air-to-air BVR missiles
[ 18 Feb, 2007 1201hrs ISTPTI ]

NEW DELHI: To maintain its unchallenged dominance in beyond visual range (BVR) combat in the South Asian region, Indian Air Force has embarked upon a major plan to acquire longer range air-to-air missiles.

India's dominance in offensive air superiority operations is being dented by the supply of similar BVR missiles to Pakistan by the US in government-to-government sales.

This sudden move has spurred IAF officials to make quick efforts to purchase 120-km range air-to-air missiles. The acquisition of such missiles, which sport ramjet propulsion, will make IAF the lone air force in Asia to have such an unparalleled capability, top IAF officials said.

The acquisition of these missiles is being undertaken in tandem with moves to induct combat aircraft with active phased array radars.

The new 40 Sukhoi-30 advanced version MKI, whose purchase in a deal worth 2.6 billion dollars has been cleared by the government, and 126 medium range combat aircraft, tenders for which are expected to be floated by this month-end, will be equipped with the new radars, officials said.

{Are they stating that MRCA might be equipped with the same radar or a different one. I'm assuming it will be AESA for MRCA. From the earlier discussions here, I'm under the assumption that Irbis will be phased array. Just that the cost per plane has increased (2.6B/40 = 65M) and considering that cost factor, what will be radar ? }

These new radars will give IAF, for the first time, the capability to detect targets as far as 300 km away and the means to fire such longer range air-to-air missiles.
Till now, the IAF had an unchallenged dominance in beyond visual range combat with its array of MiG fighters equipped with R-27 REI and R-27 RETs missiles with a target lock on of 35 km for close combat and the longer range R-77 and French R-550 Magic Mantra missiles capable of shooting down targets 60 km away.

But the recent decision of the US administration to clear the supply of AMRAAM and AIM-9M Sidewinder beyond visual range missiles to Pakistan has eroded the IAF's dominance in air combat, officials admitted.

The US government has cleared the sale of AMRAAM and Sidewinder air-to-air missiles worth 240 million dollars to Islamabad to equip its new batch of 50 F-16 fighters.

"There are moves also to start indigenous development of such long range missiles by DRDO with possible foreign collaboration," DRDO sources said.

With the induction of three Phalcon airborne early warning and control aircraft between November this year and 2009, the IAF would get the capability to conduct and control airborne operations upto 400 km inside hostile airspace.

The new Su-30MKI, which India would be acquiring by 2009, would be equipped with Ibris active phased radars {what is this?}which will transform the fighters into a dedicated information weapons platforms.

Thanks to a large number of fighter exercises carried out with foreign air forces, IAF pilots have mastered beyond visual range combat even in an AWACS environment. "The pilots are all agog to train with longer range BVR missiles," an IAF official said.


By 2009, Irbis is going to replace BARS? Gurus any insight..

I'm throughly confused :-? , Is Irbis AESA or PESA?
Considering the following factors from above article, it appears to be AESA
-Explicit statement that the new radar will be active phased array radar
-Increase in cost per plane (2.6B/40=65M)
-Hinting that MRCA might also use the same radar
-Information weapons platform

But again, gurus have affirmed multiple times that irbis is not AESA?

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Postby mandrake » 20 Feb 2007 22:24

Some interesting stuff about akash radar and MMR just some giests i found,

http://www.oits.org/cit2006/fcfp06all.pdf

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Postby Pit » 20 Feb 2007 23:17

We should ban any Sengputa's writes on this forum...I'm not indian, I don't have any right to give my opinion here...but I'm tired of reading so much Bravo Sierra in single articles...it's really annoying.

This is Irbis-E:

Image

Image

Image

Image

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Postby Cybaru » 20 Feb 2007 23:32

Pit wrote:We should ban any Sengputa's writes on this forum...I'm not indian, I don't have any right to give my opinion here...but I'm tired of reading so much Bravo Sierra in single articles...it's really annoying.


Yeah you do... Feel really free to say what you really want..

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Postby Austin » 20 Feb 2007 23:38

So let me ask you this , NIIP has no plans to develop an AESA antenna and what best they are working on is Irbis-E

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Postby JaiS » 20 Feb 2007 23:41

Dileep wrote:Thanx guys for the info on the Zhuks.

Was the 2052 in the expo? Is there an infoboard?


It was there at Defexpo - 2006. Brochure images below.

http://img157.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 5218kz.jpg

http://img157.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 5229va.jpg

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Postby Pit » 20 Feb 2007 23:45

Austin, NIIP is working on AESA technology don't have any doubts about that (focus of work ---> MIRE system for 5th Gen Sukhoi T-50 and demo-eval Epaulet-A), the point is, Irbis-E is not an AESA radar and there is not known projects of Flanker-derived AESA radars from NIIP while it would be only logical from them...AESA is a desire of IAF for a MKI MLU in the future.

I think that since production kits are being received, IAF could do well and do an investing in passing to Irbis-E, that after all share many common components with Bars (derived software, derived hardware, highly improved gizmos, is an evolutionary system after all), and after production run is ready (2012-2013 so or less), start to pass thorugh MLU the first received Flanker Rhamba to an AESA solution.

You commented that Bars is enough flexible for sticking to it some more years, and it's, after all Irbis-E is a (much) evolutioned Bars...I'm sure you can get an upgraded Bars (without sticking to Irbis) using some of the common solutions...

What MKI needs is a new AMRAAM..Izd 180 should be nice for it.

MHO.

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Postby Austin » 21 Feb 2007 00:05

Yes for me the BARS look good enough and can remain competitive for a decade with soft and minor hard upgrades , The key thing is Netcentric stuff , long range weapon system and development of other complimentary assets

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Postby Austin » 21 Feb 2007 00:09

Posting here in the Radar thread from AeroIndia infor thread

rakall has converted the book into a pdf lot of tech info on Zhuk-AE

http://rapidshare.com/files/16699210/Ph ... l.pdf.html

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Postby Dileep » 21 Feb 2007 00:22

Pages 14/15 are missing. It have a lot of info, so can anyone post them please?

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Postby SaiK » 21 Feb 2007 00:22

Singha-ji, r u sure the cost of eltan's aesa is $15M?
:eek:

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Postby mandrake » 21 Feb 2007 00:27

Since i'm using GPRS cannot access Rapidshare as it says a ip downloading.
Jcage can you kindly drop some of these brochurec if you have downloaded em in my email?

regards,

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Postby krishnan » 21 Feb 2007 11:05

Wasn't IAF looking at IRBIS for the MLU of MKI's ?

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Postby rakall » 21 Feb 2007 11:18

joey wrote:Since i'm using GPRS cannot access Rapidshare as it says a ip downloading.
Jcage can you kindly drop some of these brochurec if you have downloaded em in my email?

regards,



Joey,

email them to me.. i will upload them..

band318 at gmail dot com

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Postby rakall » 21 Feb 2007 11:39

Dileep wrote:Pages 14/15 are missing. It have a lot of info, so can anyone post them please?



pages 14 & 15

http://rapidshare.com/files/17500212/Do ... a.pdf.html


the full book re-uploaded with pages 14&15 included

http://rapidshare.com/files/17500771/Ph ... l.pdf.html

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Postby Austin » 21 Feb 2007 12:06

Thanks Rakall for taking all the effort highly appreciated

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Postby SaiK » 21 Feb 2007 12:22

well from the pg 14, the bandwidth issue and other multi role capability point - (countermesure, surveilance, comm, etc).. simply zhuk-a does not want to concentrate on that purely because of processing power.. understandable.. and i guess this is where raptor makes the kill in the processing power that has dedicated super chips to handle multiple role for aesa.

what would be our requirement?

also, dileep, care explaining w.r.t active t/rs noise to increase range? 10 times with 80% effective range, without extra power? is this something against the switching mode of apg79?, that these zhuk-a t/rs would be permanently active?

need laymans terms/thanks

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Postby maitya » 21 Feb 2007 16:57

Moving the discussion from the Aero India Info Thread to here ...
X-posting
maitya wrote:
rakall wrote:Lot of details on the Mig27 upgrade
...
http://rapidshare.com/files/17187861/Mi ... e.pdf.html

See the page numbered 40 or the last page in this pdf reg Active SPJ.. DARE/BEL seemed to have achived significant progress in electronic jamming capabilities with this pod.. as you can read from this write-up it is also capable of active deception jamming..

I guess it wouldnt be too farfetched to start thinking on the lines of active cancellation as the next step(s)..

What - no mention of datalink, though it talks about INCOM. :shock:
Not sure, if they've incorporated the latest single LRU design (for LCA, IIRC).

Also, this is an old picture which implies an internal SPJ - but people have been speculating an external one!! Harry/JC clarify pls ...



maitya wrote:
rakall wrote:
maitya wrote:
rakall wrote:Lot of details on the Mig27 upgrade

What - no mention of datalink, though it talks about INCOM. :shock:
Not sure, if they've incorporated the latest single LRU design (for LCA, IIRC).

Also, this is an old picture which implies an internal SPJ - but people have been speculating an external one!! Harry/JC clarify pls ...


JC clarified this earlier.. they did an internal SPJ for one band only and had to do a lot of re-work for that itself.. not easy job was that.. For another band it had to be external.. not sure if they stuck to one internal & one external solution or settled for complete external..

Per Dr.Natarajan's speech & what BEL guy told me the SPJ that BEL is making is "external" and considerably advanced..


Rakall, the issue is what's being considered for internal SPJ ... for a Bison, say, it's sufficient to have I band (8-12Ghz) fore and aft coverage - because that's the frequency most offensive airborne radars will operate. And then there's this question of, at what range do you want the jamming to be effective - more the range you want more high-powered transmitter would be required with the attended problem of heat dissipation and power requirement. So something like an AN/ALQ-165 type system would be sufficient.

However, for a ground-attack aircraft like the 27s you'd ask for a far larger bandwidth coverage - like low (E/F) to mid (G/H) to high (I/J) bands (i.e. 2 to 20Ghz range) - something that'd cover most of the bandwidths used by the SAM as well the airborne radars. This complicates the whole system and would thus require higher number of LRUs consisting of multiple emitters (for diff band) - something like an AN/ALQ-137 system. Added to this is the requirement to execute stand-off jamming that requires higher power transmitters.

So I'd hazard a guess, that the 27's will have an internal SPJ (Tempest?) to cater to airborne radars while a capability to carry external SPJs to cover the SAM threat.

Of course, with so little information available on SPJs etc, take it FWIW onlee ... :P



Sumeet wrote:
maitya wrote:Rakall, the issue is what's being considered for internal SPJ ... for a Bison, say, it's sufficient to have I band (8-12Ghz) fore and aft coverage - because that's the frequency most offensive airborne radars will operate. And then there's this question of, at what range do you want the jamming to be effective - more the range you want more high-powered transmitter would be required with the attended problem of heat dissipation and power requirement. So something like an AN/ALQ-165 type system would be sufficient.


But soon IAF will have to face S-Band AWACS. So there is need to increase the air to air jammer spectrum to cover from L Band to X Band.

And you will need very high power to counter AWACs radar. Simple SPJ may not have the ERPs adequate to screen the platform they are onbaord especially if the AWACS resort to burn through mode of transmission.

Here is a good article on jamming.
http://www.mputtre.com/id16.html

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Postby maitya » 21 Feb 2007 17:00

Sumeet wrote:
maitya wrote:Rakall, the issue is what's being considered for internal SPJ ... for a Bison, say, it's sufficient to have I band (8-12Ghz) fore and aft coverage - because that's the frequency most offensive airborne radars will operate. And then there's this question of, at what range do you want the jamming to be effective - more the range you want more high-powered transmitter would be required with the attended problem of heat dissipation and power requirement. So something like an AN/ALQ-165 type system would be sufficient.


But soon IAF will have to face S-Band AWACS. So there is need to increase the air to air jammer spectrum to cover from L Band to X Band.

And you will need very high power to counter AWACs radar. Simple SPJ may not have the ERPs adequate to screen the platform they are onbaord especially if the AWACS resort to burn through mode of transmission.

Here is a good article on jamming.
http://www.mputtre.com/id16.html

Sumeet, why'd a point-defense fighter like a Bison need to jam the S or L band - I mean, at none of these bands the range and angular resolution is good enough for weapon employment. Of course, they'd love to do that but that'd be from offensive jamming perspective - a diff requirement - more suitable for dedicated standoff jamming platforms like the prowler. But not for "self protection" purposes, IMO ...


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