Religion Thread 4

[Johann]

Ramana,

Actually the Orthodox churches are closer to Constantine's *highly* state oriented church than the Catholics.

The difference is that in Western Europe the state collapsed, leaving the Church more powerful than the various kingdoms that emerged for centuries. This left the RCC with a feeling that its authority transcends the state.

Elsewhere the Orthodox Churches continued to serve as a pillar of the state as Constantine envisioned - even when Byzantine rule was replaced with Muslim Ottoman rule.

The Orthodox churches were historically capable of everything the Catholic church was capable of - encouraging Russian Tsars to launch crusades, punishing theological dissenters, supressing potential religious competition, etc. It is just that they confine their vision to within a single state.

In fact it was harder to separate Church and State in Orthodox countries because the Church was such a useful and loyal servant to the state, rather than a competitor like the RCC.

Sadler: First, you have come out with a statement like "Pope did not save a single Jew" and telling us Vatican credibility is worse TASS etc..what's more you said something to the effect that in "all your readings" there is not a single credible source says otherwise ..

Never mind, as Johann pointed out, Einstein, Rabbi of Rome, Rabbi of Israel, and many others contradict you.. and credit that Pope for saving thousands of lives

Wonder what kind of reading you do, and how you make such claims?

Amber,

I also said that much of that praise was driven by Jewish leadership and Israel's desperate need for diplomatic support from the Vatican in the precarious years of the 1940s and 1950s.

It was overstated praise. Pius XII's calculated passivity can only take some, not all of the credit for Italian resistance to deporting Jews in to German hands.

If the Italians and Spanish had been as keen as say, the French or the Poles to deliver the Jews to the Nazis, would PXII have done more than he did in those other countries? The record suggests probably not.

Most Popes bring their personal and professional background with them when they take the robes.

John Paul II first an athlete and an actor with Jewish friends and then as a priest who was part of a non-violent resistance against first the Nazis and then the Communists.

Benedict XVI was an academic who was forced to confront the question of where Germany went wrong, as well as facing the counter-culture revolution.

Pius XII came from a diplomatic background with all of what that entails. He was one of many popes whose professional lives were dominated politics/diplomacy/finances etc than questions of morality and spirituality.

p.s. Amber, why not remove the personal dig at Sadler? This thread can go downhill very fast if we arent all very careful. Sadler, please do not respond with an eye for an eye if he doesnt.

[Kumar]

A grand-grand-nephew of Mother (Mirra Alfassa) of Aurobindo Ashram writes about her. And regrets losing such a remarkable spiritual leader who was born a Sephardic-Jew to Hinduism.

From Sephardic Jew to Hindu Guru" (How a Proselytized Secular Jew Became a Hindu Spiritual Leader)
http://www.alfassa.com/mirra.pdf

[S.Valkan]

A grand-grand-nephew of Mother (Mirra Alfassa) of Aurobindo Ashram writes about her. And regrets losing such a remarkable spiritual leader who was born a Sephardic-Jew to Hinduism.

The anguish and the suppressed contempt for Hinduism comes through in the statements "lost her heritage" and "because of a lack of knowledge of her own religion, became an idol worshipper".

Wonder if the author himself does not suffer from a lack of knowledge!

[Gerard]

Holy row over troop colours telegram

Dated January 26, 1944, it reported the substance of a conversation with Pope Pius XII just days after the landings at Anzio and Nettuno, south of the capital.

"The pope hopes that there will not be Allied coloured troops among the units deployed in Rome," wrote the ambassador. Sir D'Arcy seems to have been rather bemused by the request, for - with a hint of sarcasm - he went on to say that the pontiff "had hastened to add that the Holy See has not fixed a limit to the range of colours".

Gentiloni Silveri told La Repubblica that the pope's "embarrassing" appeal reflected the view of the Holy See throughout the conflict: that Rome was a "symbol of Western culture ... a patrimony to be entrusted to the care of the white race".

[svinayak]

Living in a Missionary world

Living in a Missionary world

Several years ago, my wife and I visited the Universal Studios theme park in Orlando, Florida. As we were walking into the main gates, we were greeted by an unusual sight:

It struck me odd to see a religious icon (albeit small) mounted over the entrance of a secular theme park. It turned out that both Disneyworld and Universal Studios hold weekend Christian rock concerts annually at their parks during the month of September. (Yes, that's right: two consecutive evenings of Christian entertainment held annually during the same weekend in the month of September at two of America's most popular secular theme parks.) Universal holds "Rock the Universe" (when we were there, the "Rock the Universe" ads mentioned connections to the evangelical Liberty University), while Disney has their "Night of Joy". The concerts include both Christian bands and Christian evangelical speakers, so these are more than just musical events. To this day, the Christian cross is still part of the "Rock the Universe" logo.

[svinayak]

Police enquiry into religious conversion. Foreigners vacate hotel and run away
PDF | Print | E-mail
Thursday, 22 March 2007
source: Dinamalar, 14 March 2007

(A reader translated the article from Tamil)

Thanjavur. Following an inquiry by police into foreigners who came to Thanjavur indulging in religious conversions, the foreigners vacated their star hotel and went away.

From USA, a group composed of 30 came to Thanjavur. They stayed in over 25 rooms rented from a hotel close to Thanjavur railway station. They registered to stay until March 18 in the hotle rooms.


Foreigners vacate

[ldev]

Shouldn't well-meaning Christians in India and abroad actively work to prevent evanjihadism, which sullies the reputation of Christianity as a whole ?

I had written what is in italics below on page 8 of the last version of this thread:

As far as support for overseas EJs by mainstream Christian and Christian institutions in India, as long ago as the late 1970s (long before mass media and even the Hindutva politicians became aware of this issue), the mainstream non Catholic Indian churches such as the Church of North India, the Church of South India or the Methodist Church did not participate in EJ activities.

e.g. in practical terms, in the 1970s if an EJ organization approached a local church for use of its property to conduct their meetings, the local church may refuse the use of its main building but allow the EJs the use of the church grounds. However in later decades, even the use of church grounds has been refused by most mainstream churches for EJ use because these churches were uncomfortable with the modus operandi of the EJ. All of this by the way, long before the Hindutva types had even become aware as to what EJs were all about.

Having said that, I maintain that the primary reason for EJs being able to get a toehold is because the target market i.e. downtrodden Hindus do not feel themselves to be accepted as an equal part of the mainstream of Hindu society. Inspite of the affirmative action programs of GOI, from a practical standpoint whether it be for jobs, marriage, housing etc. they feel that they are treated as less than equal. That is what gives anybody including EJs an opening. And to be absolutely blunt, right here on BR on this very thread and its prior incarnations, can anybody who is attacking the EJ position identify himself as an SC/ST? I doubt it. Which leads one to only one conclusion i.e. that the defenders of the status quo are hard-core Hindutva types. Now the cynic in me may ask the question as to why all of a sudden is there this burning interest by the Hindutva types for the welfare of the SC/STs when for centuries they have at best been ignored and at worst actively pushed down. I would have to say that from the SC/ST viewpoint, the advent of the EJs is good. There is suddenly some competition for wooing them.

However, spreading falsehoods such as stories of false miracles and/or other fraudlent actions is deplorable and should be at least condemned if not prosecuted under law.

[svinayak]

Having said that, I maintain that the primary reason for EJs being able to get a toehold is because the target market i.e. downtrodden Hindus do not feel themselves to be accepted as an equal part of the mainstream of Hindu society.

This is a more of a psy ops of the leftist, sociologist trained by the west. After independence the universal franchise and affirmative policy has changed the society from what it was under colonial rule for 500 years. It was done by the upper caste themselves. Were not the upper caste also took the brunt of the foreign invasion and colonial rule for the last 800 years. Is this not a drastic change which any society has done dissolving the prince and monarchy system in India after independence. In 60 year it has changed what the country was for 500 years.

It is the low per capita income due to socialism run by the elite for 50 years which has created economic inequity. What we are seeing is a mostly a propaganda and indoctrination.

[Vick]

re=posting in respose to Vick ....

awww ... offline is no fun ...

I assume your response to mean that you are agreeing to a public debate ...

very well, the first topic of discussion is one that you raised ... it has to do with a linear model for human after-death condition versus a cyclic one ... christianity believes in a linear model in which some mythical entity labelled as "soul" is fed into a binary output of "heaven" and "hell" ...

...

however, the problem starts with the post-rapture situation ... what happens to physical reality? ... does it just evaporate as so much "puff"? ... or, some remanants of physical reality remain? ...

your considered response to this didactic problem would be apreciated ...

You have an interesting way of putting things in words. It's somewhat admirable and appealing to the technical lobe of my brain.

As far as your question is concerned, honestly, I'm not sure. Or more precisely, I don't know. I haven't really sat down and determined to study this particular aspect. Off the top of my head, the book of Revelations would be the obvious starting position along with Isaiah in the OT. If you're further interested, you can check out some books on the topic of escatology, the study of the end times. I, personally, haven't spent much time on this topic but a word of caution though: This is one area where the bible is open to interpretation and escatology tends to attract a VERY wide range of interpretation, from the humorous to the profane. So, if anyone does decide to delve into the world of escatology, use multiple sources, at the least and each source will probably have their own interpretation. This area is not as concrete as the other doctrinal pillars of the faith and open to much interpretation.

[Prem]

Having said that, I maintain that the primary reason for EJs being able to get a toehold is because the target market i.e. downtrodden Hindus do not feel themselves to be accepted as an equal part of the mainstream of Hindu society.

This is a more of a psy ops of the leftist, sociologist trained by the west. After independence the universal franchise and affirmative policy has changed the society from what it was under colonial rule for 500 years. It was done by the upper caste themselves. Were not the upper caste also took the brunt of the foreign invasion and colonial rule for the last 800 years. Is this not a drastic change which any society has done dissolving the prince and monarchy system in India after independence. In 60 year it has changed what the country was for 500 years.

It is the low per capita income due to socialism run by the elite for 50 years which has created economic inequity. What we are seeing is a mostly a propaganda and indoctrination.

There is another angle, Ejs/ Jihadis etc are at the forefront of demanding reservation for old and recent converts . They want "dono Unglia Ghee me".

[Alok_N]

t a word of caution though: This is one area where the bible is open to interpretation and escatology tends to attract a VERY wide range of interpretation, from the humorous to the profane.

uh oh ... "inerrancy" of the bible bites the dust like a tendulkar? ... two icons lost in one day ...

[Vick]

uh oh ... "inerrancy" of the bible bites the dust like a tendulkar? ... two icons lost in one day ...

It's not an issue of inerrancy, it's an issue of not much being revealed on this particular topic and what is revealed, is open to interpretation.

[TSJones]

I think what christians do not understand is that in the Hindu view, evangelism is an irreligious act.

Not necessarily.

Buddhism began as an evangelical religion.

But its modus operandi was scholarly debating on the logical and ethical dimensions, not denigration of existing religions.

Christian and Muslim evangelists deliberately denigrate other religions as a rule of thumb.

And, the Christian evanjihadis then take recourse to their usual bag of deceptive tricks ( aka "miracles" ) to lure the poor and the gullible into their pyramid scheme.

Mind you, the "opening of the heart" is not a matter of change of conscience, but one of deception and lure.

Sharing your personal belief in a positive manner in the open market of ideas is never a problem.

Deceiving people, and denigrating their ( and their ancestors') intelligence and beliefs is.

That is what is deeply problematic.

And that is what TSJ , Vick etc don't get.

I don't see where I have ever said that I support people being deceived.
What is deeply "problematic" is you ascribing someone elses viewpoint to something that is completely erroneous and wrong and then stating it as "don't get".

I don't think one can effectively proselytize by attacking someone's belief system. There is nothing wrong with proselytizing as long as there are no lies and no force.

Most proselytizing is accomplished by good works and fellowship. Not by attacking belief systems and lying.

To make matters worse, you and others on this board don't really care about the tribals and dalits. What you really worry about is the loss of some perceived political power. As if becoming Christian automatically makes somebody a seperatist.

My last message on this thread. Have fun.

[Alok_N]

isn't "inerrant but open to interpretation" a long-winded oxymoron? ...

almost like "great batting line-up that can't score runs" ...

added later: I'm hurt ... TSJ, the "champion of dalits", has departed in a huff ... today is not a good day ... everything is falling apart ...

[SaiK]

please read
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/ ... i_78889718
When Faith Fails Children

http://www.naturalism.org/faithsci.htm

It is as a successful and satisfying culture of beliefs - not as an argument from secure and universally agreed upon premises - that naturalism will take hold, competing against traditional, faith-based ideologies as a response to the human condition. This response can involve our most sophisticated social and intellectual resources but need not ignore the personal existential predicament. Showing the power of such a view would still not establish it as the only choice, since there is no a priori standard which rules out faith and its expanded ontologies as illegitimate. Although faith, tradition, authority, and revelation will continue to meet certain needs, for many these needs can be met equally well by hewing to the evidential requirement for central beliefs. There are considerable emotional satisfactions to be had within naturalism, and I would call them spiritual satisfactions were not that characterization too freighted with dualism. No matter - they are no less real for want of a name.

© Thomas W. Clark

[pradeepe]

History of religion. This was posted on BR a while ago.
Gives a nice overview (oh, dont get too picky about facts ). Play it.

http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/history-of-religion.html

[Pulikeshi]

Agree with some of your assertions. Hopefully, this discussion will lead to a more productive thread. However,....

Now the cynic in me may ask the question as to why all of a sudden is there this burning interest by the Hindutva types for the welfare of the SC/STs when for centuries they have at best been ignored and at worst actively pushed down. I would have to say that from the SC/ST viewpoint, the advent of the EJs is good. There is suddenly some competition for wooing them.

It would be very hard for any sane, educated, rational Hindu of present day India to condone the atrocities committed on our fellow human beings – incidentally belonging to a different caste. It would be even harder for anyone to defend or support Hindutva of the street ruffian variety.

However, we ought to realize the virulent forces of Hindutva exist because; they are a visceral reaction to the EJs. They also exist because the "western-edumacated" Indian neither knows his culture, nor that of the west. The failing of these brown-sahibs in formulating a mini-revolution within Hindu society, is the cause for those on the streets picking up sticks and stones. Thus, we can also bet, that the Hindutva, of the street ruffian variety, will remain, as long as the external threat remains.

Finally, without pitching a defense of the intellectual Hindutva forces, let me say that as far as the “sanghâ€

[SaiK]

[quote="Meera Nanda"]One could say that this is simply the Indian way of embracing the new by first turning it into an aspect of its own tradition - “traditionalizing the innovation,â€

[Pulikeshi]

SaiK,

Thanks for that interesting article. It would be interesting to know your opinion regarding that article.

First, the author seems to be hell bent on viewing Hindu renaissance through the prism of what Christianity went through. Natural Science stands opposed to Christian belief. Science had to fight for survival (still does) under the oppressive paw of belief in the west. In some sense it is my thought that Natural Science in the West had to be even more rigorous and thorough than in the East as it had competition, albeit a lesser substitute.

Second, Hinduism has never expressed explicit opinions on science. For the most part the religion, in my opinion, is a Social Control Mechanism (SCM) (Organizational Behavior terminology (OD)). Thus unlike the Machine Bureaucracy ( MB ) (OD terminology) of Christianity and Islam, it enforces congruence indirectly via coercion. That does not mean Christianity, under various denominations, are not moving towards SCM. Just that their primary tendency is MB. The longer the history and the more complex the environment, organizations need to pick up SCM.
(Notice, the spirituality or theology is of little interest to me. I am more interested in the organization of religions and the constituent Memes.)

Finally, these terms modern, post-modern, etc. are alien to me. I do not understand them that way someone in the Arts field would. I guess, I have more to learn:

It is only the imperial, colonial power of the West that has made Western science look like it is the only and universally true knowledge. Hindutva ideologues see their role as creating alternative sciences, grounded in the Vedic assumptions, which is able to convince all people, in all cultures, universally, of the correctness of its findings.

I can only answer to Hinduism (Sanathana Dharma) and not Hindutva. To that extent, what are the Vedic assumptions? There can be no such thing as Vedic science, Hindu science, Krishna science, or ISKON science, etc. Natural Science is congruous with Hindu thought. Further, such thought has never needed to protect any “Vedic assumptionsâ€

[Pulikeshi]

Another thought:

Vedic or modern Hindu ideas have never been Aristotelian Analysis. However, I am not sure if Hinduism and Aristotelian Analysis are incongruent.

[disha]

Most proselytizing is accomplished by good works and fellowship. Not by attacking belief systems and lying.

My personal experience so far is otherwise and hence your views above is nothing but a simpler and a feel good point of view.

In fact, the other day I had this "peddler of religion" who genuinely believed that WWII was a very good thing and the best thing to have happened was the holocaust! Yes, when I heard that, I was shaking in the boots ready to kick him out. But with all civility I let him go.

May be the EJs are encountering more civil types and less of uncivil types.

To make matters worse, you and others on this board don't really care about the tribals and dalits.

You really have a very simplistic world view!:shock: I thought you were different from the typical american who sees the world in simple black and white tones. You are with me or against me tones. You are either good or bad tones:!:

BTW, are you not indulging in the same thing you accused Valkan of?

What you really worry about is the loss of some perceived political power. As if becoming Christian automatically makes somebody a seperatist.

A similar reaction by christians when they see Hindu lifestyles. Where do you categorize the reaction of some methodists to start the "christian yoga" or COGA for short.

My last message on this thread. Have fun.

Why? Cannot handle the deep discussion? Too much to fit in a simplified world view?

[Ananth]

One of Meera nanda's articles in Frontline generated a rejoinder, may be that will help us understand what she is talking. Note this is NOT a rejoinder to the article posted by Sai.

[url=http://www.swaveda.com/articles.php?action=show&id=58]A Rejoinder to Meera Nanda’s Article “Postmodernism, Hindu nationalism and Vedic scienceâ€

[Alok_N]

My last message on this thread. Have fun.

Why? Cannot handle the deep discussion? Too much to fit in a simplified world view?

cognitive overload can not be ruled out ...

my gauntlets are collecting dust while we entertain huff and puff ...

[svinayak]

I have to find the speech of Vivekananda done in 1893 and post it here.

If anybody can find it please do so.

[Vishy_mulay]

Meera Nanda, well let you be the judge
http://logosonline.home.igc.org/issue_1.3.pdf

Looked at in isolation, this is
just a funny little story, a side show. After all, what does this minor project
matter when India continues to spend millions of rupees (close to 18 percent
of the national budget each year) for developing or acquiring modern
methods of mass destruction?
But this is no sideshow. This project is not about defense. It is about Hindu
supremacy. This project is not aimed at an external enemy, but at extending
the reach of Hindu nationalism in India’s schools and other institutions in
the public sphere. This project is about the rising tide of reactionary
modernism in India. To place this incidence in a larger context, let us go
back to May 1998 when India test fired nuclear devices in the desert of
Pokharan.

There is plenty of evidence for a distinctively Hindu packaging of the bomb.
Even though the Hindu nationalist BJP government responsible for the blasts
eschewed religious rhetoric in its official pronouncements, it gave its parent
organization, the RSS (Rashtirya Svyamsevak Sangh) and its cultural arm, the
VHP (Vishva Hindu Parishad) a free rein to claim the bomb for the glory of
Hindu civilization and Vedic sciences. Shortly after the explosion, VHP
ideologues inside and outside the government vowed to build a temple
dedicated to Shakti (the goddess of energy) and Vigyan (science) at the site
of the explosion. The temple was to celebrate the Vigyan of the Vedas which,
supposedly, contain all the science of nuclear fission and all the know-how
for making bombs and much much more. (It is this ancient science that the
defense ministry wants to tap into, as the BBC story reveals). Plans were
made to take the “consecrated soilâ€

[Vishy_mulay]

At least she is honest about who she is.

I am a fanatic rationalist

Rana Nayar speaks to Meera Nanda on her life, interests, passion for science and her book Prophets Facing Backward


Meera Nanda — Photo by Pradeep Tiwari


The US-based Meera Nanda did her M.Sc. in microbiology from Panjab University in 1979, before moving on to I.I.T Delhi for a Ph.D. During her stay at this premier institution, she woke up to glaring contradictions between scientific teaching/research and scientific temper. She was aghast to see how science was only taught by, but not practised among the scientific elite. This was one of the reasons why she chose not to enter the academia; but work as a science reporter for The Indian Express. During her three-year-long stint from 1980 to 1983 as a reporter/columnist, she did what she loved doing the most, popularising science. But as her heart always lay with science and not journalism, she migrated to the US to pursue further research in the philosophy of science. After a year at Indiana University, she opted out and in 1993 enrolled for another PhD, this time in the department of scientific and technology studies at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute in upstate New York. Her second Ph.D thesis has now been published in form of a much talked about book, Prophets Facing Backward: Postmodernism, Science and Hindu Nationalism.

Tell us about your Chandigarh connection?

I was born here, into a very conservative family, and had a traditional upbringing, too. When I was growing up in the 1960s and 70s, Chandigarh was a very conservative city, which, in many ways, it still is. It’s modern only in infrastructure, not in spirit. Though I have been away from it for over 25 years, I keep coming back to it. It hasn’t really changed much, at least, in terms of mind-set.

Your subject was microbiology. How and at what point did you develop interest in the philosophy/history of science?

I was trained to be a microbiologist. My first Ph.D was in this very subject. But during my research I’d begun to move away from microbiology. In the early 1980s, we had a debate in India, in which I also participated in my own small way. Though it largely had to do with the project of modernity, it specifically led to the questioning of the role of science and scientific worldview in our lives. Around this time, I began to think seriously about the discrepancies between the scientific training and scientific temper, which, though endemic, was totally unacceptable to me. I found that even an institution like the IIT was quite feudal, hierarchical and patriarchal. It was intriguing how even the best of professors only expatiated on science in their public role, refusing to integrate it into their private lives, which continued to be dominated by conservatism, even reactionary orthodoxy. This was a disturbing trend. Besides, this is where the natural sciences wouldn’t have been of much help. So I took a plunge into the philosophy of science.

You’ve come up with an interesting thesis in this book. Can you sum it up for our readers?

This book is a culmination of my long-term conviction that the truths of science are universal and so should not be interrogated, arbitrarily. With the appearance of post-modernist philosophers, Enlightenment notions of scientific progress came in for serious re-consideration, even hasty rejection in certain cases. Once room had been created for indigenous, alternative and ethno sciences, a new kind of trend began to emerge. A good number of retrogressive and traditional sciences, rooted in superstitious beliefs and occultism, especially in the developing world, began to don the mantle of sciences. This is what led us away from modernity and toward what I describe as ‘re-radicalisation’ of local traditions. In turn, this created cultural space for the revivalism of Hindutva, which is nothing but a deviant, political expression of monistic, Vedantic, Neo-Hinduism we often associate with the 19th century Indian Renaissance.

Hindutva, as a political force, is a phenomenon of the late 1980s or early 1990s. If we go along with your thesis, wherein you trace its history back to Indian Renaissance then why did it emerge only when it did?

Of course, Hindutva as an aggressive, fascist force emerged only in the early 1990s, for which there are political and empirical reasons. But my book is about ideas and their history. Its primary interest is not empirical and political, but philosophical. My effort is to engage with the metaphysics of Hinduism and show how it has appropriated the space of modern science and is now claiming the status of science, as also modernity for Vedantic thought. This trend is particularly dangerous. This wholesale rejection or denial of modernity has to be guarded against.

On reading your book I had this feeling that you are quite passionate about your defence of scientific universalism. So much so that you go ahead and tar post-modernism, post-colonialism and eco-feminism with the same brush, critiquing them all for promoting what you call ‘anti-science’ attitude. Your wholesale, somewhat radical denunciation of all alternative modes of thought/discourses arouses suspicion about how your brand of scientific universalism could potentially turn totalitarian. Any comments?

Yes, I’m a ‘fanatic rationalist’ or a ‘fundamentalist scientist,’ if you prefer. I find it hard to accept the way science is being re-traditionalised, balkanised and indigenised. In India, we are into what I call ‘reactionary modernism’. For a variety of reasons, we aborted our belief in scientific universalism, and therefore, liberalism and secularism much before we could complete the project of modernity. We haven’t really had excess of liberalism or secularism, as some people claim. On the contrary, we have had too little of it. The seductive logic of post-modernism is not for us. We must give modernity another, much longer lease. Perhaps, that’s our only chance with secular India.

[Vishy_mulay]

http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com/art ... php?num=60

A principled insistence on drawing clear distinctions between science and religion is crucial in India because Hinduism maintains a grip on this-worldly affairs by claiming to be "just another name" for science and reason. Hindu gurus and godmen stake a claim to extraordinary and extra-constitutional powers not by invoking God's commandments or by a literal reading of a sacred book — such stratagems are easy to laugh off in this day and age. Hindu apologists instead stake a right to intervene in secular matters by claiming for Hinduism a rational and empirical "holistic" knowledge of the "higher" and "subtle" levels of the material world.

Indeed, even a cursory reading of the voluminous writings of Murli Manohar Joshi, K.S. Sudarshan (or any number of RSS ideologues), David Frawley, Subhash Kak, N.S. Rajaram and the host of other apologists associated with the Ramakrishna Mission and Aurobindo Ashram can show that Hinduism's unique "scientificity" constitutes the central dogma of Hindutva.

Hindutva ideologues stake their claims to make "Hindu India" into a "guru of nations" on the notion that only Hinduism is compatible with modern science, while all the "Semitic" faiths have been proven to be false by modern science. Hindutva's self-serving and entirely fallacious equation of Hinduism with modern science — Hindutva's central dogma — can be summarised as follows:

Hindu dharma is rooted in the eternal, holistic or non-mechanistic laws of nature discovered "in a flash" of insight by the "Vedic Aryans." These laws have been affirmed by modern science and therefore, Hinduism is uniquely scientific. Because the Hindus live in accord with a scientifically proven order of nature which unifies matter with higher levels of spirit, they are more rational and ecological as compared to those of Abrahamic faiths who derive their moral laws from an imaginary supernatural being, and who treat nature as mere matter, devoid of spiritual meaning. Because Hinduism is so scientific, there is no need for an Enlightenment style confrontation between faith and reason in India. To become truly and deeply scientific, Indians — indeed, the entire world — must embrace the teachings of the Vedas and Vedanta.

It was this central dogma that gave Dr. Joshi and his fellow travellers the chutzpah to install departments of Vedic astrology in public universities, to pour taxpayers' money into every superstition under the sun, and to try to take over public institutions like IITs and IIMs.

It should now become the first order of business of Indian intellectuals to demolish this central dogma. We must demolish this dogma not because we do not want India to shine and prosper and take its rightful place in the community of nations. We must demolish this dogma because it is based upon false parallels and correspondences between modern science and Vedic metaphysics. We must demolish this dogma because it denies the existence of deeply oppressive superstitions, including the occult notion of the presence of consciousness in matter. And we must demolish this dogma because of its deeply Hindu and Aryan supremacist overtones.

[Vishy_mulay]

Acharya is this what you had in mind?

Swami Vivekananda’s message
on September 11, 1893:

"Sisters and Brothers of America. [At this moment came the three minute standing ovation from the audience of 7,000] It fills my heart with joy unspeakable to rise in response to the warm and cordial welcome which you have given us. I thank you in name of the most ancient order of monks in the world; I thank you in the name of the mother of religions; and I thank you in the name of millions and millions of Hindu people of all classes and sects.

"My thanks also to some of the speakers on this platform who, referring to the delegates from the Orient, have told you that these men from far-off nations may well claim the honor of bearing to different lands the idea of toleration.

"I am proud to belong to a religion which has taught the world both tolerance and universal acceptance. We believe not only in universal toleration but we accept all religions as true. I am proud to belong to a nation which has sheltered the persecuted and the refugees of all religions and all nations of the earth. I am proud to tell you that we have gathered in our bosom the purest remnant of the Israelites who came to Southern India and took refuge with us in very year in which their holy temple was shattered to pieces by Roman tyranny. I am proud to belong to the religion which has sheltered and is still fostering the remnant of the grand Zoroastrian nation.

"I will quote to you brethren a few lines from a hymn which I remember to have repeated from my earliest childhood, which is every day repeated by millions of human beings: 'As the different streams having their sources in different places all mingle their water in the sea, so, O Lord, the different paths which men take through different tendencies, various though they appear, crooked or straight, all lead to Thee.'

"The present convention, which is one of the most august assemblies ever held, is in itself a vindication, a declaration to the world of the wonderful doctrine preached in the Gita: 'Whosoever comes to me, though whatsoever form, I reach him; all men are struggling through paths which in the end lead to me.'

"Sectarianism, bigotry, and it's horrible descendant, fanaticism, have long possessed this beautiful Earth. They have filled the earth with violence, drenched it often and often with human blood, destroyed civilization, and sent whole nations to despair. Had it not been for these horrible demons, human society would be far more advanced than it is now.

"But their time is come; and I fervently hope that the bell that tolled this morning in honor of this convention may be the death-knell of all fanaticism, of all persecutions with the sword or with the pen, and of all uncharitable feelings between persons wending their way to the same goal."

I have an audio file of whole speech. If anyone interested i can post it.
Added later: Found mp3 of speech online.
http://www.archive.org/details/SwamiViv ... 1893Speech

[ldev]

However, we ought to realize the virulent forces of Hindutva exist because; they are a visceral reaction to the EJs.................Thus, we can also bet, that the Hindutva, of the street ruffian variety, will remain, as long as the external threat remains.

And - the EJs are a reaction to the opening that they see in the divided nature of Hindu society. If Hindu society was united, if downtrodden Hindus whether SC/STs felt that they were an equal part of mainstream Hindu society, if GOI sponsored affirmative programs including job reservations at the employment and education levels were deemed superflous because society at large really did not discriminate against certain castes, then how would the EJs get an opening? Remember, the EJ phenomenon is a post independence occurence. The discrimination in Indian society has been an ongoing affair for centuries.

Hindu society is fairly impervious to change e.g. look at Indian Hindus taken to the Caribbean 150 years ago to work as indentured labor in sugarcane plantations. Their traditions have survived more intact than the traditions of Hindus in India inspite of them being a relatively small community thrown into the middle of a new and hostile environment. Against this backdrop, the reaction of the Hindutva types in India to what is a relatively toothless feint by the EJs against Hindu society in India, millions of times larger than the small community in the Caribbean, is an overeach. Either the Hindutva types are not savvy and educated or they are savvy and educated and knowing fully well that the EJs are unlikely to cause any real change in Indian society are only using the pretext of the EJs activities to pander to their hard core constituency via fear mongering.

A truly democratic society such as India has to have freedom of religion including the right of all religions to proseytize, provided such right does not result in curbing the rights of anyone to choose a religious affiliation of their own choice. Curbing either of these rights is the first step towards a slide towards fascism. IMO, existing laws in India are quite adequate to safeguard not only fraudulent claims made by EJs in trying to dupe their target market, but as well, Hindutva hard core types curbing the rights of Christians in preaching their religion via good and charitable deeds. Ofcourse, these laws already on the books, should be implemented - unfortunately, they are largely not implemented.

[Sadler]

Sadler:

....... Wonder what kind of reading you do, and how you make such claims?

............... Care to explain the data from where you arrive at that "fact".

I will ignore the gratuitous rantings.

Two answers:

One: Readings

The three most scholarly and indeed seminal pieces on the annihilation of european jewry before during and after WWII are

The Popes vs. the Jews by David Kertzer
The Destruction of European Jews by Raul Hillberg*
Hitler's Shadow War by Donald McKale.

*This is a three volume set that is the most "scholarly" of the three, which is saying something because Dave Kertzer is not exactly a slouch.

Two: Rank and file catholics.

Indeed, rank and file catholics in both poland and romania joined in enthusiastically wiping out their fellow jewish citizens. This is documented in a number of books including the "Jews of Jedwabne." I cannot recall the author off hand (traveling at the moment).

Anti-semitism, originated with the catholic church, infected even martin luther, and found fertile ground for two millenia in christian countries. One favorite tactic of the "rank and file" was to kidnap jewish children and sprinkle "holy water" on them thus allegedly baptizing them in the christian faith. Once, thus baptized, either the family had to convert to retain custody of their own child or lose him/her. These ersatz baptisms were very much performed by rank-and-file catholics.

Even today, if you ever run into catholics from eastern european countries, you may well hear statements such as "I have this jewish friend, BUT he is a nice guy." And you'll hear this in such a matter-of-fact and nonchalant way that it makes my blood chill. In that short sentence, i can envision the elements leading to the ghettoization of jews in virtually most european capitals. When Hitler invaded Austria (the Anschluss or Union"), Austrians enthusiastically came forward to devastate jews in their midst and helped in the "Aryanization" of jewish property. This aspect of the christian (not just nazi) war on jews is best described in McKale's book.

Even within american catholics, i see that the strain of anti-semitism is buried but skin deep. Talk to one long enough and he/she will inevitably let something slip. This i have seen time and again and i need no further convincing.

So, if you are really interested in verifying my earlier "rank-and-file" statement, please read these books if you have the time or inclination to do so. Once you do, you may just have sufficient information to debate with me on this issue.

Please note that my exposure to catholics is of those in the US and european countries.

You may perhaps have inadvertently exposed the one flaw in my statement. In my rank-and-file characterization, i have also included Latin American catholics about whom i have little information. So, my statement remains unproven in its extension to LA catholics.

[Vishy_mulay]

Even today, if you ever run into catholics from eastern european countries, you may well hear statements such as "I have this jewish friend, BUT he is a nice guy." And you'll hear this in such a matter-of-fact and nonchalant way that it makes my blood chill. In that short sentence, i can envision the elements leading to the ghettoization of jews in virtually most european capitals.

Having mingled with few Eastern Europeans, I have heard quite a few derogatory things said about Jews (most of the time it was done in jolly way). Was under impression that I am interacting with anti-Semites rather than it being a common norm.
Sadler the story of Pope's Jews was told to me by EJ who believe in Rapture. It was in the context of how Jews are lost people because they do not accept Christ. Apparently at the time rapture Christ will come back and convert Jews to the true faith. This is what prophecy says and hence Pope had to keep Jews alive till such time comes. Had no idea about it.

[Pulikeshi]

Hindu society is fairly impervious to change e.g. look at Indian Hindus taken to the Caribbean 150 years ago to work as indentured labor in sugarcane plantations. Their traditions have survived more intact than the traditions of Hindus in India inspite of them being a relatively small community thrown into the middle of a new and hostile environment.

There is a question on the hypothesis scaling? Small, isolated populations of Indian Diaspora are a lot more fanatical lot about their culture, than Hindus that are the residents of India. The former are closed-systems and the latter is an open-system. This is true of plantation or “Desi Oracle Operatorâ€

[Anand K]

The persecution of the Jews in Eastern Europe dates back to the Early Medieval Ages. Themes like the Golem, the "Cossack" motif down to Tim Burton's "The Corpse Bride" point to this fact.

The simple reason for all this was the Jews were the only "heathen aliens" living among the good old home grown proper Christians..... every other faith of Europe were obliterated (the last being the Pagans of the Baltic States). The Jews were not eliminated 'coz even the lay sweeper had an idea that the Old Testament was the bedrock of Jewish Faith. Moreover, they were pretty good businessmen too with their the 'old boy' networks running across continents. Still, the non-acceptance of Church Dogma of 'Christ as the only road to Salvation' made them game for murderous hatred..... Passion Plays, Jewish people preferring to Ghettoize themselves and the greedy rulers eye for Jewish Gold whipped up bouts of hatred which killed thousands of Jews.

[JE Menon]

>>The persecution of the Jews in Eastern Europe dates back to the Early Medieval Ages.

If not before. It is clear that life for Jews was precarious since pretty much the beginning... One only needs to read Walter Scott (Ivanhoe), Shakespeare (Merchant of Venice) and numerous other, but lesser known, books to see that even then the notion that Jews were somehow a suspicious group, or a lesser bunch to be wary of, was well established - a process which must have taken centuries. IMHO, apart from the religious aspect, it also had to do with the fact that the Jewish people had the capacity to not just survive, but to thrive, despite adverse - sometimes most adverse - social circumstances. Very often they were the ones lending the monies. Can't have been nice for the non-Jews, having to supplicate with someone whom you despise as a lesser being. At the root of it, there is a hatred and jealousy that the Jews are so successful despite their travails. This continues today, and is reflected in the Arab situation as well...

As for the Europeans, the anti-Jewish sentiment is latent but very present. I have observed it to some degree almost everywhere I have travelled on the continent (and I've travelled quite a bit), it is often nothing but a small remark, a question, a joke - but what lies underneath is clear. And this is true of even the more sophisticated types. It is easy for this to come out because as a Hindu, I am not expected to have a viewpoint on this. And if I'm with Arabs in a European context, the floodgates open much more easily. The Israelis understand Europe well. Make no mistake. Right now it is not malicious or even threatening, but it is not something to be underestimated or disregarded. Historically speaking, these things can turn on a dime. A decade can change things dramatically.

[prahaar]

I have read about many religion-based explanations for anti-semitism in europe. But even today, in otherwise quite secular/anti-religious societies (for ex. finland ), i have observed making a sly remark about jews. Have not been able to understand the reasons ( there is certainly something more than religion in there, because otherwise non-religios ppl make such remarks ).

[rongsheng]

Apparently at the time rapture Christ will come back and convert Jews to the true faith. This is what prophecy says and hence Pope had to keep Jews alive till such time comes. Had no idea about it.

What a load of BS. This is what happens when some one prophesizes something but it never happens. They have to twist the words beyond recognition and cook up some cr*p like this.

The story goes something like this. Jesus says in Matthew 31:24
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... &version=9;
"All these things" in the verse is the end of the world. Guess what, that generation passed away a long time back. Now church has a problem.
Is Jesus a liar? They cannot accept that, so they twist the meaning of "generation" to mean until all Jewish People are alive.

[JE Menon]

>>Have not been able to understand the reasons

I have to agree with prahaar on this, and I've said this before. Despite all the stuff written about it, nothing that I've read really catches it. The WHY? Dunno, maybe because of the yindoo civilisational background, we just can't GET it. I mean, at least I dont. Why, for example, would an otherwise ordinary secular Frenchman or Greek or German today drop his voice a tone when referring to something about "the Jews"? Why is it so easy when referring to some conflict or other to say "well the Jews control the media, what do you expect?" In today's Europe...[/b]

[Alok_N]

I saw a lot of bandwidth on Ms Nanda, so I went back to read her article ...

[quote="Meera Nanda"] Because Vedic Hinduism has perpetuated itself for centuries by claiming its teachings are in accord with “laws of nature,â€

[Vishy_mulay]

Alokji a lot more. She was speaker in Marxist gala gathering few years back (will try to locate the link). She is leftist in pretended palatable color of Naturalist (dont think being leftist is fashionable now a days hence call her self "Fundamental Rationalist").
rongsheng, welcome to BR. Dont know whether your name is in accordance with BR guidelines.

[Alok_N]

Vishy,

I guessed as much ... her khujli is clear ... it is impossible to discuss with folks who have no use for evidence unless it is used to either further their own agenda or to discredit someone else ...

if she is a rationalist, she would have read up on the evidence rather than launching attacks ...