Religion thread - 7

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 02 Apr 2007 07:56

shiv wrote: What resurgence Acharya?

It was always there. It never went away. Just because more people are seeing it now does not make it a "resurgence".

Semantics maybe. But I have a point to make.

Independence is resurgence. It is only the first step. With more than a millennium history 60 years is just a small speck in the time line.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Apr 2007 07:56

Calvin wrote:I think Cow Slaughter is banned in all states except Kerala and either Bengal or Arunachal.

Maybe, but the beef I ate ("13th floor", MG road Bangalore) last week and at the Vietnamese restaurant in Pondicherry last month must have been synthesized using Alok's science then.

If not - the minority are breaking the law of the land.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Apr 2007 08:00

Acharya wrote:
shiv wrote: What resurgence Acharya?

It was always there. It never went away. Just because more people are seeing it now does not make it a "resurgence".

Semantics maybe. But I have a point to make.
Independence is resurgence. It is only the first step. With more than a millennium history 60 years is just a small speck in the time line.

So you are quite happy with the description "The resurgent Hindu"? The Hindu who emerged from his hole?

Calvin · Post by **Calvin** » 02 Apr 2007 08:02

...or it is the proof of the mortal cow. The bill the BJP introduced to Parliament would have banned the *sale* of beef, but that was never passed. I am not familiar with the specifics of the laws in the various states in this regard.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Apr 2007 08:04

If one agrees on Evolution, only the mammals were less non-vegetarian than the earlier kinds.. hence, Science, Evolution imho, is driving towards more vegetarianism... even non-veggies, are non veggies because there exists veggies. Just imagine those claw foot eaters and cloven-hoofed feet eaters (bad luck if you are hoofed, bible will make you goto hell at the sight of eaters). Thus cows and goats are devils for Christians. But, heck now-a-days, they are more Chinese than Christian themselves. Dogs and Cats are spared by many.. cause of this cultural disdain towards Science.

IMHO, vegetarianism and non-vegetarianism comes under Evolutionary aspects. period. check those raw meat eating neandrethals and the story of fire taming homo sapiens who got his belly structure changed due to cooking of the meat, and hence less intestine space for digestion. that is just to show the lineage for Evolution of vegetarianism.

In India we have Holy Cows.. can't hit them in traffic and escape. In america its Holy Cats and Holy Dogs!.. you can get sewed for killing them. For cats and Dog's sake the discussion here has rewarded merits for such animals rather intellectual humans. nice going!.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 02 Apr 2007 08:05

Can one tell the difference between buffalo meat and cow meat ? I have had none except the American mid west variety at a dingy lab cafeteria where it tasted like rubber, not counting the McDonald variety of burgers a long time ago before edible veg stuff started hitting the markets here. The old joke of American cows/buffalos being not holy anyway helps.

Mlechha cows can be slaughtered and eaten in my books. They just dont have that pious look on their face that Indian domesticated cows have.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Apr 2007 08:09

Calvin wrote:...or it is the proof of the mortal cow. The bill the BJP introduced to Parliament would have banned the *sale* of beef, but that was never passed. I am not familiar with the specifics of the laws in the various states in this regard.

In fact there is more that you are not familiar with.

Cow slaughter is indeed banned in many places, but it goes on nevertheless and beef is freely available.

This has several interesting consequences:

1) It puts the cow slaughterers on the wrong side of the law.

2) The law is not enforced strictly and is held up as an example of "Hindu tolerance". But it bloody well IS Hindu tolerance isn't it.

You have an idea (murdering cows) that is alien to the sensibilities of the majority but that is being tolerated because of the general need for communal harmony and recognition that cow eaters too have a place in society despite the horror and disgust that the majority community feel at this senseless murder of an animal when there is plenty to eat.

Sajan · Post by **Sajan** » 02 Apr 2007 08:12

Calvin wrote:I think Cow Slaughter is banned in all states except Kerala and either Bengal or Arunachal.

I know Kerala and Bengal perimit cow slaughter. I thought it was permitted in some of the NE states like Meghlaya and Mizoram.

Interestingly one of the largest abattoir, Al-Kabeer in AP, is owned by a hindu.

http://www.countercurrents.org/comm-bidwai040903.htm

Hindus believe
the cow is sacred in some sense. But that's not reflected in the way
it's treated. A look at the emaciated, half-starved, cows that roam
India's streets foraging for food and obstructing traffic should
convince the sceptic. Even more brutal is the treatment of bullocks,
who are mercilessly beaten to make them work beyond their capacity.

For instance, in Kerala, beef accounts for 40 percent of all meat,
and is consumed by four-fifths of the people. They include 72 Hindu
communities. In India, beef is at least twice cheaper than lamb or
chicken. It is the poor's preferred source of first-class protein.
...
Surveys of butchers in different states show that three-fourths of
all beef is consumed by non-Muslims
...
Besides, India's two most
mechanised slaughter-houses, including Al-Kabeer, are located in
Andhra. Al-Kabeer, a big beef exporter, is owned by a Hindu!

Vishy_mulay · Post by **Vishy_mulay** » 02 Apr 2007 08:14

http://www.petaindia.com/alertcowban.html

Cow slaughter is already banned in all but a few states, yet it continues rampant and unabated in illegal, unlicensed abattoirs all throughout the country, including in the states where it is banned. In fact, according to one estimate, there are approximately 32,000 unlicensed abattoirs in operation in India today. Moreover, countless cows are reportedly transported in gruesome conditions and smuggled across the West Bengal border into Bangladesh to be killed. A total ban on cow slaughter will not have any real effect unless unlicensed abattoirs are also closed and transport is monitored. As it stands now, most police and government officials turn a blind eye to the thriving illegal slaughter trade.

CPrakash · Post by **CPrakash** » 02 Apr 2007 08:14

Calvin wrote:I think Cow Slaughter is banned in all states except Kerala and either Bengal or Arunachal.

Certainly not in Andhra. Cow Slaughter / Beef Making /Beef eating is very much allowed .

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Apr 2007 08:16

btw, cloven-hoofed meat eaters are vampires!.. [candidate axiom] its a fact (in the minds of believers).

Vishy_mulay · Post by **Vishy_mulay** » 02 Apr 2007 08:17

just look at what Sajan posted. praFOOLs article from 2003 published in land of PURE.

Sajan · Post by **Sajan** » 02 Apr 2007 08:20

Vishy_mulay wrote: just look at what Sajan posted. praFOOLs article from 2003 published in land of PURE.

SO WHAT ? Do you have anything to talk about the points raised in the article or are you here to shoot the messenger ?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Apr 2007 08:20

Sajan wrote: http://www.countercurrents.org/comm-bidwai040903.htm
Hindus believe
the cow is sacred in some sense. But that's not reflected in the way
it's treated. A look at the emaciated, half-starved, cows that roam
India's streets foraging for food and obstructing traffic should
convince the sceptic. Even more brutal is the treatment of bullocks,
who are mercilessly beaten to make them work beyond their capacity.

No it does not convince this skeptic.

Cows in a dry arid climate such as India are normally skinny. It is only when cow murderers overfeed them with the intent of murdering them and then "carving" them that they become fat. Slim Indian cows are healthy cows.

Bullocks are mercilessly beaten, with a thin straw like reed that would not hurt a child.

Animals that are worked "beyond their capacity" will die - so it does not make sense unless you want to gift that dead bull to a cow eater to carve.

Let us put things in perspective, "Gyan" is always available for the unenlightened.

Howevere I sense a troll whose intent is to disrupt. And I will watch that.

Vishy_mulay · Post by **Vishy_mulay** » 02 Apr 2007 08:26

Thanks Shiv you already posted my reply. praFOOL is called praFOOL for a reason, HE IS TRUE PROPHET OF SELECTIVE INTERPRETATION WHICH SUITS HIS AGENDA. Poor sod is bitter heart broken person who could not brought REVOLUTION to poor ignorant masses of INDIA. He is antithesis to SCHOLARLY WRITTING.

Alok_N · Post by **Alok_N** » 02 Apr 2007 08:30

Bade wrote:Can one tell the difference between buffalo meat and cow meat ? I have had none except the American mid west variety at a dingy lab cafeteria where it tasted like rubber ...

Boss, in that dingy lab, you had the opportunity to taste the real "American Buffalo" ... that is sacred meat that even the likes of TSJ have never tasted ... Chief Sitting BUll would be proud of you ...

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Apr 2007 08:30

Sajan wrote: SO WHAT ? Do you have anything to talk about the points raised in the article or are you here to shoot the messenger ?

In fact some messengers get shot - depending on whether the message is an intention to debate (for or against) or disrupt.

People who have a message are unable to get their message across after they get shot, because they are then dead meat.

Vishy_mulay · Post by **Vishy_mulay** » 02 Apr 2007 08:33

Bade I had Bufello (ranch cultivated) meat and it does taste different than beef. It is more dry (flaky) and has more earthy taste. Wild buffalo meat is not available (i might be wrong) in US.

Alok_N · Post by **Alok_N** » 02 Apr 2007 08:38

Vishy_mulay wrote:Wild buffalo meat is not available (i might be wrong) in US.

hehehe ... not to simple folks like you ... but Bade had the advantage of working in Blessed Real American Wild Buffalo Land ... as far as Beef goes, Bade had access to Beef of Beefs ...

however, I agree ... real Wild American Buffalo Beef tastes like rubber ...

Rampy · Post by **Rampy** » 02 Apr 2007 08:38

Hi

Never knew where to post this so posting it here, if in wrong place admins pls advice

Was watching the RAVAN serial in Zee and it shows Arian and dravidian stories ( aryan invasiion and taking the north west part of inida and darvidians pushed to take shelter in Lanka)pre ram raj.
Has anybody seens it. I thought there was no archiological proof for aryan invasion and no scriptures supporting it.

Can anybody tell me an what basis this serial has been directed. What is th source of the story?

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 02 Apr 2007 08:40

Kumar wrote: My point about "faith" is not to claim it is useless. IMO vedanta is based on "experiences" of the upanishadic Rishis. To have a "faith" in those experiences as axioms, and to derive a philosophical system from those experiences taken as axioms is just fine. My objections were to the "scientific-logical" claims.

My comment was specific to Valkan's original post and what were the axioms you saw (that he didn't). As for faith, my comments were more in the context of this thread i.e. religion. There are aspects of world religions which have huge components to be taken on faith, for example, the need to believe in an all-powerful God who can grant you peace in the after-life. To me, that belief is a matter of faith. Valkan's post did not require anything of that kind of faith.

I am in general agreement that 'I' and 'am' etc. etc. is some sort of an assumption, a 'starting point ' as I call it. Maybe it is a question of semantics, and I have no quibble calling them axioms or anything else. But we need something or somewhere to start. My position is that Valkan's original post does not stand negated or attenuated simply because one assumes the existence of 'I' and 'am'. This starting point is good enough for me (for now). If 'I' and 'am' cannot be taken for granted and have to be proven, I am not sure if that discussion would have any real meaning or conclusion.

I am quoting that post below, which Valkan claims contains no axioms, in case you wish to do some "axiom hunting".

My question to you was to point out to Valkan about the axioms- which he had repeatedly asked for. Your first response clarified that ('I' and 'am').

SriKumar wrote

But the concept of 'A' denying the subject in himself is definitely intriguing (begs the question: if there is nothing to start from, where do you go from there

Kumar wrote:

Where would you want to go from where? All is shunya in shunyavAda, including here, there wherever...!

You had brought up shunyaVada as a philioshpy where nothing is assumed (B can deny what is in 'A'). My question then was, if 'I' and 'am' cannot be assumed, then what can be assumed for a starting point? What is the starting point in the shunyavAda philosophy? Is there a more fundamental way to approach issues of Truth/God etc. by not assuming even 'I' and 'am'?

Vishy_mulay · Post by **Vishy_mulay** » 02 Apr 2007 08:41

Alok Gurudev are we still in BEEF mode? I thought we passed that stage or is it just me whose eyes are covered by illusion of MAYA?

Tilak · Post by **Tilak** » 02 Apr 2007 08:50

Sajan wrote:
Vishy_mulay wrote: just look at what Sajan posted. praFOOLs article from 2003 published in land of PURE.
SO WHAT ? Do you have anything to talk about the points raised in the article or are you here to shoot the messenger ?

How convenient, to leave out a few portions which dont suit your ..

The proposed law is open to objection on two other grounds. It originates in the mistaken belief that cow-slaughter was "brought" to India by "invading" Muslims. But eminent Indian and European historians have shown, citing contemporary accounts, that beef-eating was integral to the dietary customs of ancient India. Animal sacrifice, including the killing of cows, is prescribed in many Indian texts, including the Vedas, the Upanishads, the dharmashastras and other scriptures.

In no major scripture, says Professor D N Jha, of Delhi University and author of "The Myth of the Holy Cow", "is killing a cow described as a major or grave sin, unlike drinking liquor or killing a Brahmin... It is only in the 19th century that the demand for banning cow-slaughter emerged as a tool of mass political mobilisation by right-wing Hindu communalists". Jha's book, released by a small Indian publisher, was banned in 2001. When the ban was lifted, no Indian publisher would print it. He had to get it published in Britain.

The Bill is utterly hypocritical in that it bans cow-slaughter on animal rights grounds. If the real objective is to prevent cruelty to animals, then why single out the cow when hundreds of other animals are maltreated? Indian society is not particularly caring of animals. Most cows consume rotten vegetables, meat, and above all, an enormous amount of plastic bags from garbage-bins. Autopsies turn up literally hundreds of plastic bags in each animal's stomach.

Many states have angrily protested against the Bill, which puts a state-subject into a common ("Concurrent") federal-state list. For instance, Meghalaya's chief minister says: "A particular diet may be poison to one community, but food for another, as in the case of the Northeast's hill people whose main diet is beef." Mizoram's chief minister argues: "If the [Bill] is passed, it could set the ball rolling for efforts to ban the slaughter of pigs. But both beef and pork are part of our food habits".

However, I find it quite interesting, that you always seem to overlook the muslim portions, even in your earlier posts on this thread. To top it, the above is from the Paki Paper ... by the fool

Sajan · Post by **Sajan** » 02 Apr 2007 08:50

I think the assertion from Shiv doesn't make that a fact. I don't think "cow-murderers" overfeed them. After all, days preceding the "cow murder", usually these animals are walking a lot, so any amound of feeding is not going to make them fatter.

If you don't believe me, go to Waalayar (a small town in Kerala-TN border) and you can see hundreds of cows/bullocks walking hundreds of miles every day before slaughtered.

From what I have seen, the so-called "straw" (often with a steel-wire at the tip) that is used to beat bullocks can really hurt.

Alok_N · Post by **Alok_N** » 02 Apr 2007 08:53

Vishy_mulay wrote:Alok Gurudev are we still in BEEF mode? I thought we passed that stage or is it just me whose eyes are covered by illusion of MAYA?

vishy dear, one can never underestimate the power of Beef ... entire religious edicts have been built upon the powers granted to those that eat this sacred meat ...

I was being quite the scholar, exploring the Holiest of the Holy Beef ....

even a nobody like yours truly got to taste the Wild American Buffalo Beef ... it was presented to the faithful in the form of a Holy Sloppy Joe ...

now brother, I am only an apprentice in the Ways of The Beef, but I had some unholy thoughts about this technique of presenting The Beef Truth ...

This holy sloppy joe business, IMO, is not well thought out ... I had distinct feelings of Loss of Faith as I tasted the Holy Sloppy Joe ...

my fond wish is that the Beef Powers that Be find ways to express Holy Beef in ways other than the Holy Sloppy Joe ...

Yours, in the Glory of Beefness,

Alok_N.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Apr 2007 08:55

Sajan wrote:I think the assertion from Shiv doesn't make that a fact. I don't think "cow-murderers" overfeed them. After all, days preceding the "cow murder", usually these animals are walking a lot, so any amound of feeding is not going to make them fatter.

If you don't believe me, go to Waalayar (a small town in Kerala-TN border) and you can see hundreds of cows/bullocks walking hundreds of miles every day before slaughtered.

From what I have seen, the so-called "straw" (often with a steel-wire at the tip) that is used to beat bullocks can really hurt.

This only means that you and I have differing viewpoints and experiences. You are not as right as you thought you were when you bolded some selected words in your post, and I might not be as right as I thought I was when I selectively bolded some words in my post.

The "truth" lies somewhere between what you say and what I say. That is all.

But nevertheless - cows have to be dead before they get eaten, and some cows are undoubtedly murdered for that and you are saying murder is better than suffering.

Let us debate whether murder of cows is better than making cows suffer.

Vishy_mulay · Post by **Vishy_mulay** » 02 Apr 2007 08:55

Gurudev the blinds of MAYA are off. We have Sajanji to discuss important BEEF recipes with.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 02 Apr 2007 08:55

Alok_N wrote: Boss, in that dingy lab, you had the opportunity to taste the real "American Buffalo" ... that is sacred meat that even the likes of TSJ have never tasted ... Chief Sitting BUll would be proud of you ...

It means some varieties of beef are prohibited to the general populace and they would not even know of its existence with the passage of time. So someone born in the USA cannot claim inherited dietary rights to such beef even if ones dominion is with co-cultural and co-religionists.

Question: Is Buffalo slaughter allowed where cow slaughter is banned ? If yes, will beef eaters be ok with having that option and doing an imaginary transformation in one's mind, of Indian buffalo meat being same as Indian cow meat and be happy and keep rest of the majority happy. A good compromise and show of tolerance for the common Hindu veneration for domesticated cows.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Apr 2007 09:02

which is natural?

-2 - murdered cow
-1 - suffering cow
0 - cow
1 - holy cow
2 - unholy cow

The truth lies somewhere in between. "0"

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Apr 2007 09:03

SaiK wrote:which is natural?
-2 - murdered cow
-1 - suffering cow
0 - cow
1 - holy cow
2 - unholy cow

The truth lies somewhere in between. "0"

Where is Valkan when you need him most?

Alok_N · Post by **Alok_N** » 02 Apr 2007 09:03

Bade wrote: It means some varieties of beef are prohibited to the general populace and they would not even know of its existence with the passage of time.

brother Bade, welcome to the world of Caste Sytem of Beef Heirarchy ... did you actually believe that All Men are Born Equal in their Beefiness ?

So someone born in the USA cannot claim inherited dietary rights to such beef even if ones dominion is with co-cultural and co-religionists.

suffice it to say that there are BeefEaters and then there are Real BeefEaters ...

Sajan · Post by **Sajan** » 02 Apr 2007 09:03

However, I find it quite interesting, that you always seem to overlook the muslim portions, even in your earlier posts on this thread

I don't understand which "muslim portion" is overlooked here. For argument's sake, if an article gets published in Pakistani newspaper, does it become less of a fact ?

Anyway, the article appeared in "News International" which is a subsidiary of News Corporation in UK which publishes "The Times", "Sun" etc.

http://www.newsint.co.uk/

It is beyond me how you concluded that was a Pakistani newspaper. Your prejudices are clouding your judgement

Alok_N · Post by **Alok_N** » 02 Apr 2007 09:07

Sajan wrote:It is beyond me how you concluded that was a Pakistani newspaper. Your prejudices are clouding your judgement

Forgive them for they know not The Beef ...

Vishy_mulay · Post by **Vishy_mulay** » 02 Apr 2007 09:08

Sajanji it is not me who said that praFOOL published in newspaper of land of PURE. It is your link and how can I argue with what you posted?
http://www.countercurrents.org/comm-bidwai040903.htm

Milking The Cow Politically

By Praful Bidwai

The News International, Pakistan
04 September, 2003

Tilak · Post by **Tilak** » 02 Apr 2007 09:08

Sajan wrote:
However, I find it quite interesting, that you always seem to overlook the muslim portions, even in your earlier posts on this thread
I don't understand which "muslim portion" is overlooked here. For argument's sake, if an article gets published in Pakistani newspaper, does it become less of a fact ?

Anyway, the article appeared in "News International" which is a subsidiary of News Corporation in UK which publishes "The Times", "Sun" etc.

http://www.newsint.co.uk/

It is beyond me how you concluded that was a Pakistani newspaper. Your prejudices are clouding your judgement

http://thenews.jang.com.pk/default.asp

And by the way, thank you ... For now I know a lil secret..

Vishy_mulay · Post by **Vishy_mulay** » 02 Apr 2007 09:10

Sajan chale sasural. Shiv really isn't it time to clean this thread?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Apr 2007 09:14

Sajan wrote:Your prejudices are clouding your judgement

That holds true for you too, although you have not yet got down to admitting it.

The topic is about slaughtering cows for eating, and you have been trying to prove that Hindus are cruel to cows.

That is defined on BRF as a "torn shirt vs open fly tactic"

The Hindu tells the cow murderer: "You murder cows"

So the cow murderer tells the Hindu "Oh but you make cows suffer"

These are two different topics that need to be discussed separately

1) Is cow murdering necessary
2) Do Hindus make cows suffer.

If I ask a person if he has change for a 100 rupee note and he says "A dollar is worth 45 Rupees" he is not telling a lie, but he is changing the subject and is saying something that is irrelevant to the issue at hand

The issue at hand is the slaughtering of cows by cow eaters.

You are alleging the ill-treatment of cows by Hindus.

We need to discuss these things separately, but your prejudice prevents you from seeing the distinct difference in the two subjects.

Sajan · Post by **Sajan** » 02 Apr 2007 09:14

Why not a simpler explanation like people from Madurai hounding out Kannagi after she burnt Madurai and was hiding in Kodungallor ?

If I recall exactly there are two groups yelling 'theri' (obscenities) that converge on the temple, one from the south and the other from the north. Are they not commemorating the arrival of the grieving TN folks from Madurai from yesteryears ?

That seems a bit far-fetched to me, considering the fact that Kannaki is not part of the folk-lore surrounding the festival. You can not see any references to Kannaki in that celeberation.

However, there is plenty of evidence of budhist influence among chera kings that ruled kerala with Vanchi (Kodungalloor) as their capital. Also worth remembering is the unopened chambers underneath the temple.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Apr 2007 09:18

Vishy_mulay wrote:Sajan chale sasural. Shiv really isn't it time to clean this thread?

No let it be for a while.

On this thread, the minute I take action against any person who opposes a Hindu worldview I will be accused of eliminating those whose views are inconvenient. But Sajan is definitely trolling.

I will allow Sajan to dig his own grave and wait for it to be deep enough. He may well jump into it himself.

Tilak · Post by **Tilak** » 02 Apr 2007 09:22

Sajan wrote: That seems a bit far-fetched to me ....

Just like it did earlier claming the above article, as being published in UK.

Where are your Sources ? or is it hearsay ..

shiv wrote: I will allow Sajan to dig his own grave and wait for it to be deep enough. He may well jump into it himself.

Thank you, Shiv