Religion Thread - 9

[Bade]

It cannot be != faith, bliss etc other than freedom.

Other cults have same concepts of faith, bliss. So one sees no difference.

But the moment you say Hinduism = freedom of (choice, thought, etc) it makes it very unique which other cults do not have in their menu.

This 'freedom' thing is a very inclusive concept. It can take agnostics, atheists, believers all under its umbrella without cramping anyones neurological dysfunctions.

[vsudhir]

Might I humbly propose....

Hinduism=sentience

or perhaps

Hinduism=consciousness?

To be Hindu is to simply be every minute of every day.

Of course some might logically argue that Brahman is beyond consciousness etc and that may be a valid objection.

My 2 cents.

[SaiK]

Sanatana means eternal, perpetual and everlasting per Cologne!

[Pulikeshi]

[quote="Rony"]
Managers should pay particular attention to what the Kakars have to say about the ‘Hierarchical Indian’. They suggest that that Indians prefer authoritative leaders. But there is a catch — the leader has to be “strict, demanding, but also caring and nurturing.â€

[S.Valkan]

To be Hindu is to simply be every minute of every day.

Well, that makes the Evanjihadis your fellow Hindus.

[SaiK]

golden rules to remove poverty [EJ vulnerable]

• 1. eradicate corruption
• 2. educate all (mandatory 10th grade)
• 3. focus on growth on all spheres.

[ShauryaT]

Do we really need to reinvent the wheel with a new slogan to sell Hinduism?

Hinduism = Sanatan Dharma = Eternal Truth.

What we really need is an Advaita for dummies, so that when the subsequent questions are asked, what does it mean - there is a clear and unambiguous answer, which every 8th grader can learn.

Valkan --- A clear purpose for your book.

[Bade]

So far all opinions expressed are defensive in nature with respect to the initial question raised on whether Hinduism needs protection.

From all discussions so far there is hint that Hindus want to be left alone. Is this the right tactic. I do not see anything in Hinduism which says it was so in the past. Or else why did Shankara travel the breadth of India and establish the four maths. Something similar needs to be done beyond the borders of India since many more Hindus are now global citizens. So we need a Hindu EJ movememt to counter the other EJs.

Time to demand explcit freedoms of thought from other closed nations where Hindus live or want to spread the message of Sanatana Dharma and liberate souls by giving them a choice.

[SaiK]

first thing i want is to replicate school models as in unkil maasa land..

have hindu temple schools opened for every community/layout/sizable population zone, that the school running helps the temple running as well as educate school children, from free up to a donated fees for educating based on parent's income level.

this way we SD-ize the real India for the future. this should be sponsored either by govt, or under a non-profit org.

[pradeepe]

Alok ji for you...

Collins: Why this scientist believes in God

[Bade]

Dont be surprised there is a significant number of even high energy physics experimentalists who believe in faith based evidence of God.

[SaiK]

Now EJs use their money power to lure a physician-geneticist.

[shyam]

Read the responses in the above report.

[Prem]

first thing i want is to replicate school models as in unkil maasa land..
.

this way we SD-ize the real India for the future. this should be sponsored either by govt, or under a non-profit org.

SaiK,
Read the article below.

Groundwork is being done to Control or eliminate Civilizational memories.

Textbooks in Uttar Pradesh: Brahminical bias and anti-Muslim prejudice

url

Hindu rulers are depicted as valiant patriots, sacricicing their lives for ‘Mother India’. The notion of ‘India’ itself is greatly expanded to include vast territories outside present-day India, the supposed ‘Akhand Bharat’ of mythical times. ‘Mother India’ is presented as a goddess who demands every possible sacrifice from her ‘children’. One chapter, titled ‘Bharat Mata Ka Rup’ (‘The Form of Mother India’), asks students to describe different parts of India as different parts of ‘Mother India’s’ clothes or body. It speaks of India as ‘Hindu Sthan' or the ‘land of the Hindus’, implying that non-Hindus have no room in it. In presents India as one, indivisible nation since time immemorial, and demands that it be literally worshipped as a deity.
While there is some talk today of pressuring the state to revise government-prescribed textbooks in order to promote pluralism and communal harmony, as Verma’s survey of the books used in non-government schools in Uttar Pradesh shows, there is also a need for a similar exercise with regard to private sector schools. The scope for this critique, as Verma indicates, also needs to be expanded. It should go beyond critiquing textbooks for their anti-Muslim bias to also interrogating their obsession with and glorification of Brahminical Hinduism, their total silence on Dalits and Adivasis and their historical oppression, their defence of social, including gender and economic, hierarchy and their uncritical defence of superstition and authority.

[Greg]

Alok ji for you...

Collins: Why this scientist believes in God

Francis Collins has been and is politically expedient. When the human genome project was being considered for funding, Bill Clinton realized that it would never pass muster if the resurgent Republican right perceived it as an attack on Biblical cannons. Collins was one of the few geneticists out there who was explicit in theistic beliefs. It was a perfect marriage and in the long run, it served the sciences quite well. Collins' views on God however are very diffuse and radically divergent from a literal translation of Bible. It is not bad to have people like him as buffers between hardcore theists who control the purse strings and hardcore atheists who need the money for controversial but vital research such as stem cell biology. Collins isnt under EJ control.

[shiv]

Shiv:
Why do we have to confine Hinduism to mean just one thing? Just because Islam = Peace and Christianity = Love, do we have to tweak Hinduism to fit into a mold?

Charioteer - your name will be changed to look like a human name.

"Rathi" sounds good

But first the reply. You have not read the original post in which I stated why we may be better off having one catchphrase.

Please go back to page two of this thread and read my post that was made just a few posts above yours.

The premise is that Hinduism is under threat.

I point out yet again that the very people who say that Hinduism is under threat, and who point fingers at Evagelism and Islam are unable to give a brief explanation of what Hinduism is about.

If Hinduism has to regain any positive attention it needs to be "sold" with icons, symbols and catch phrases. Just like "Islam = peace" is used to polish up the image of something that is far more complex and far less peaceful.

The saleability of Christianity and Islam are based at least in part by the dumbed down nature of both faiths in relation to the complex concepts that Hindus talk about. This makes Hinduism completely opaque, dense, impenetrable except to those whose attention span lasts longer than 1 minute before they reach any judgements, positive of negative. Or else you have to be born into Hinduism to like it.

To me these characteristics are the same as that of a product that will not sell and will have to go off the shelves in due course. It is being kept alive only by sales to factory employees (Hindus being born into the faith) and the market share is being eaten up by products that are being sold under slogans that mislead.

That needs changing.

[vsudhir]

The saleability of Christianity and Islam are based at least in part by the dumbed down nature of both faiths in relation to the complex concepts that Hindus talk about. This makes Hinduism completely opaque, dense, impenetrable except to those whose attention span lasts longer than 1 minute before they reach any judgements, positive of negative. Or else you have to be born into Hinduism to like it.

Well put.

From what I gather so far, the Hinduism=Freedom catchphrase seems best.

Freedom from what, one may ask?

And right above everything stands - 'Freedom from fear'.

Fear that one is consigned to eternal torment by the all-merciful for the sin of being born. A place so dark and hideous ('Abandon hope all who enter here', remember?). Chrislam calls it Hell and it certainly helps keep those who need dumbed down faith pills in line. Izlam mandates death for apostates, even more useful to keep the muzlim faithful in check.

Next comes 'Freedom from compulsion'. No compulsion to wage Holy war with arms and violence, or to bleed animals to death slowly or to condemn other belief systems as wrong.... etc etc. Freedom from irrationality. No tearing need for ritual, for do's and don'ts that one doesn't inherently understand.

Third comes freedom of inquiry. No questions are out of bounds. The call to explore, experience and explain.

JMTs.

[Manny]

Alok ji for you...

Collins: Why this scientist believes in God

Francis Collins has been and is politically expedient. When the human genome project was being considered for funding, Bill Clinton realized that it would never pass muster if the resurgent Republican right perceived it as an attack on Biblical cannons. Collins was one of the few geneticists out there who was explicit in theistic beliefs. It was a perfect marriage and in the long run, it served the sciences quite well. Collins' views on God however are very diffuse and radically divergent from a literal translation of Bible. It is not bad to have people like him as buffers between hardcore theists who control the purse strings and hardcore atheists who need the money for controversial but vital research such as stem cell biology. Collins isnt under EJ control.

The thing with Collins is not that he believes in a God... the Question is.. how did he jump from a logicial deduction/belief of a higher power to a Christian god. A Christian God requires lot more than reasonable deduction of a higher power. I would have understood him to be honest if had said he became a theist..

It requires non reasonable deduction of a higher power..a belief of a CREATOR into things like "original sin" and resurection and what not....





Manny

[shiv]

Alok ji for you...

Collins: Why this scientist believes in God

This is a good article.

This man had the freedom to decide on what he wanted to believe and he used that freedom to reconcile two seemingly irreconcilable systems that lesser people would be unable to reconcile. He is comfortable and at peace with his decision.

The man doesn't know it. But he is a Hindu. He is an example of how you can be a Hindu despite seeming to be Christian.

[Greg]

@Manny

I guess he chose the Christian God in the same way that 99% of the religious people in this world chose theirs - be that Allah or Krishna. They simply pick what they are culturally most attached to - the faith of their parents and immediate family. Religion is by and large coded into a child's brain. Most people who "find" God at a later age are simply "re-finding" the same God and religion that they observed and absorbed as kids. My understanding is that most people including Hindus basically tune into their religion at a very early age via family customs. Rationalization and philosophical varnish may or may not come at a later age. A haphazard oscillation between deep religiosity and agnosticism is common but the core beliefs are rarely shed - especially the power one bestows in prayer and ritual. The choice is also greatly reinforced at a later age when, as adults, people face the mortality of their near and dear ones. Lastly, religion and culture are so heavily intertwined that giving up one religion is often tantamount to giving up their culture - nostalgia is a powerful emotion. Vast majority of religious people never abandon the faith of their fathers (or mothers). I suppose, Francis Collins is no different.

[Karan Dixit]

Hindu = Free Thinker

As a Hindu I have unhindered access to the enterprise of freethinking. I am not shackled by restrictive mandates that choke minds of christians and muslims. This tradition of freethinking allows us Hindus to construct conjectures about the universe without having to worry about a backlash from within.

[RajeshG]

Shivji

The thrust (or assumption) behind your statement is that hinduism needs to be sold to new customers. My boss talks about a 30 second elevator pitch and when he is drunk he calls it showing-some-skin. If convincing hindus that they are under threat is x units tough then convincing hindus that they have to "convert" somebody and prepare an elevator pitch for that is 10x units (if not more) tough.

But then perhaps you are right. Perhaps we were wrong all along when we claimed ekam-sat.... Perhaps we do need to show-some-skin and tell them ours is the way onlee..

I dont know, its a tough call, I cant make up my mind - have been chewing on this for a long time (and doing nothing) and i have not been able to make up my mind.

JMT.

[Pulikeshi]

Shivji

The thrust (or assumption) behind your statement is that hinduism needs to be sold to new customers. My boss talks about a 30 second elevator pitch and when he is drunk he calls it showing-some-skin.

If you got it, you better flount it
No point in hiding "skin" behind the pallu or the sari!

If Hindus were required to teach "freedom" to others, they may themselves have to question that freedom in the first place.

Can't be a good teacher, unless you understand what needs to be taught

[shiv]

Shivji

The thrust (or assumption) behind your statement is that hinduism needs to be sold to new customers. My boss talks about a 30 second elevator pitch and when he is drunk he calls it showing-some-skin. If convincing hindus that they are under threat is x units tough then convincing hindus that they have to "convert" somebody and prepare an elevator pitch for that is 10x units (if not more) tough.

But then perhaps you are right. Perhaps we were wrong all along when we claimed ekam-sat.... Perhaps we do need to show-some-skin and tell them ours is the way onlee..

I dont know, its a tough call, I cant make up my mind - have been chewing on this for a long time (and doing nothing) and i have not been able to make up my mind.

JMT.

This is an insightful post from a Hindu mind.

I think that Hindus in 2007 are behaving mentally exactly like I believe they did when faced with the first organized religious zealots 1000 or more years ago.

They were happy with what they had within themselves but did not have clue about what to say if they were asked to do describe what they "believed" by people who came pre-primed to "believe" in one of the monotheistic religions.

For 1000 or more years the Hindu has never spent time developing a description of his own system that can be easily understood by someone outside the system. The Hindu gets tied up in knots the minute someone asks him what his belief system or his philosophy is all about.

Hindus never have to describe themselves to each other. There is an automatic assumption of knowledge and automatic understanding of what the other Hindu is talking about.

The Hindu worldview has never developed a thought process or strategy for a force that says "I am XYZ and nothing else. What the hell are you?"

Even on this thread there is a paucity of people who are able to describe what Hinduism is all about. I was saddened to see that a one paragraph description made by me in an earlier thread was the subject of some praise. Does it take a faulty half-wit Hindu like me to describe Hinduism to people who I thought had great knowledge and understanding. Even more sadly, I have been asked, in this series of threads "What are the strengths of Hinduism that you keep talking about?" Do I have to tell people that???

I have been characterized as a pant-shirt wearing dhimmi whose mind has been brainwashed by a conspiracy to defeat Hinduism. If a person such as I has to be considered some kind of repository of knowledge of the strengths of Hinduism and if some people are hanging on to my words - Hinduism is under more serious threat from within than anyone dares to admit.

The Hindu self image assumes that others understand the complexity of Hindu belief. In fact most Hindus accept it but do not understand it. And the ratio of understanders to accepters is decreasing. When Hindus don't understand what their system is about, blaming EJ and Islamists is a fatal diversion.

There is a deep degree of degeneration in the system that has not been addressed. Rot in the system is being praised and upheld as Hinduism. Hindu minds with cobwebs inside need to wake up.

You need to sell Hinduism to *Hindus* first, so they are able to grasp by a slogan or paragraph what is great and what is their own and help propagate it without criticizing the next Hindu as being faulty, dhimmi or brainwashed.

If we can get 75% of educated Hindus to do that, the tide would have been stemmed and the rot replaced by new life.

[RajeshG]

Pulikeshiji

Not only that, hindus will have to learn to criticize somebody. You have seen the reaction on this very board to such attempts. It involves compromises, do we have it in us to make those compromises ? Can you call JC a false-god ? There I have used a lower-case "g" - how many hindus here will wince at that , you think ?

Can a tradition that flounts nasadasin-no-sadasit get itself to do these things ? I dont know..

[shiv]

Pulikeshiji

Not only that, hindus will have to learn to criticize somebody.

Two steps here

a) Stop criticizing each other and teach with affection rather than disdain
b) Criticise those who crticise Hinduism for the faults they do not see

[ramana]

I have read this book and its pretty good!

Idiot's guide to hinduism

Amazon.com
Hinduism is such a vast, complex, and exotic topic that to boil it down to a few hundred pages--and make it fun--must be the work of a true avatar, in this case Linda Johnsen. In The Complete Idiot's Guide to Hinduism, Johnsen covers the history, philosophy, devotions, gods, and traditions of this timeless religion. She takes pains to not only make the material easy to read and understand but to get inside the minds of Hindus, themselves, to make sense of what they believe and why. This sympathetic view is balanced by objective and concrete reporting. For example, she presents discussions of the Aryan Invasion theory, whether Jesus visited India, and a well-documented case of modern-day reincarnation. In addition to introducing each of the different strains of Hinduism and their beliefs, she also gives an overview of the classic Hindu myths. Exotic, yes, but Johnsen succeeds in bringing Hinduism closer to home. --Brian Bruya

About the Author

Linda Johnsen holds a Master's degree in Eastern studies. She is author of Daughters of the Goddess: The Women Saints of India (winner of the Midwest Book Association Award for Best New Age Book of the Year), The Living Goddess: Reclaiming the Tradition of the Mother of the Universe, and Meditation Is Boring? Putting Life in Your Spiritual Practice. She has published nearly 100 articles in magazines such as Hinduism Today, Yoga Journal, and Yoga International, and has lectured throughout the United States on Hindu spirituality.

and

Once again the Idiots Guide format comes to our rescue. There is a good forward by Dr. David Frawley. In the introduction the way and why of the book layout is explained. To better cover the subject the book is divided into six parts:
Part 1. "The Eternal Religion" explains how Hindus look at time and space.
Part 2. "What Hindus Believe" introduces you to the Hindus ideas about god and the value of other faiths.
Part 3. "Who Hindus Worship" about Westerners mistaken ideas about Hindu and polytheism.
Part 4. "How Hindus Live" the cast system and so fourth.
Part 5. "God's House has many Doors"" examines the paths to God in Hinduism
Part 6. "A timeless Tradition" a look at Hinduisms many saints and sages.

There are many helpful hints in the margins.

On a personal note I get tired of the many stereotypes mentions in the East VS West explanations. I understand it is necessary yet never the less there are many grades how people view the world. In fact I could have sworn that Sanatana Dharma pilfered my ideas. If it is the other way around I have no idea where I got them, however the truths would exist with or with out Hinduism.

Any way you look at it this book by Linda Johnsen is a very good starting place.

and

t's not easy to introduce a completely alien topic in a way that's fun, easy to follow, and instructive. Linda Johnsen's Complete Idiot's Guide to Hinduism has managed to do all of it. This is not to say that Hinduism is a lark, easily absorbed or easily understood and remembered. It isn't. But the book makes it seem that much closer to being so.

Some things I liked about the writing: Johnsen is earnest but doesn't take herself too seriously. She presents Hinduism in I imagine quite the same manner of awe and intrigue that she herself once learned it. Hinduism becomes cool. She also organizes the writing well so the reader does not quite feel so lost. The religion itself, I can speculate, can be fun to read about. It has some of the dramatic and whimsical polytheism we find in various mythologies but wraps everything in some very serious speculation and inquiry about the nature of the universe. While I would not recommend converting, I can certainly envision the possibility of wanting to learn more.

Some tidbits I wasn't so fond of: Johnsen is a bit, shall we say, credulous in matters of science and faith. I have not observed that Western science is quite so helpless to explain Hindu mysteries (such as the incredible body manipulations that Yoga masters are capable of or the Ganesha Milk Miracle), something confirmed by a friend of mine from a Hindu background. I've also observed that what Johnsen calls "agreement" between Hindu belief and scientific theory is more superficial than she allows for (an example would be her description of the death of stars). Thus, when she vigorously criticises Western historiography on Hinduism, one must wonder how large a grain of salt to add to the reading.

Overall, however, the presentation is sharp, well-paced, informative and, again, fun. Johnsen seems to have an inexhaustible supply of little stories and anecdotes, both from theology and from personal experience, to put flavor in the topic. For a topic that most Americans know zilch about, this book is a terrific way to learn some cool stuff.

[ramana]

Also sulekha groups had this

But just for the record,
here is hinduism for dummies:
There are two definitions for 'hindu' that ( according to me at least)
are mutually exclusive ;( i am just copy-pasting the definitions, for the reasons, please refer to the starting thread.):
Either one of these:
1)
As told by by most saints of the religion:
"A man who has eschewed ego, finds himself to be one with the universe, works with highest intellect and discipline, he who is of the highest gunas( my guess-sattwic)" .

heres my definition [the definition (2)]:
"A hindu is one who believes in re-incarnation, law of Karma, and a final state of Samadhi,or everlasting bliss, which is stated differently by different schools of philosophy.

A hindu is incidentally, found to be one who believes in the sanctity of his 5000 yr old culture, and mostly if not always, found practising caste rituals, and some restrictions, like in marriage, etc".

That was about 4-5 sentences in all.

[Pulikeshi]

Even on this thread there is a paucity of people who are able to describe what Hinduism is all about. I was saddened to see that a one paragraph description made by me in an earlier thread was the subject of some praise. Does it take a faulty half-wit Hindu like me to describe Hinduism to people who I thought had great knowledge and understanding. Even more sadly, I have been asked, in this series of threads "What are the strengths of Hinduism that you keep talking about?" Do I have to tell people that???

Shiv,

Can the Universe be defined and explained to everyone?
We can talk about the Sun, the solar system, the crab nebula, red dwarfs, black holes, etc. So it is with this concept of Hindusim.
I prefer to talk about the social reasons why Hinduism is a better religion for the future. Science and spirituality is not the only reason why customers choose a religion - it has no mass appeal when one is in pain and suffering.


These discussions are what I think are required:

1. What is required is the undestanding of Hinduism as a social control system.

2. What is Dharma (in a social context, not religious)?

3. Why Hinduism survived (I think there are answers)? Whereas all other ancient civilizations and religions failed to stand up to the Christian-Islamic hierarchical bureaucratic control system. Are customers looking for simple answers? Are the folks in the west, now enlightened walking away from such systems as they long for more knowledge?

A sustainable, social control system, that can evolve and adapt - that is Hinduism. Understanding Hinduism in the context of Living Systems and Memeplexes is what will allow us to formulate new meaning to the system.

JMT

[Pulikeshi]

Pulikeshiji

Can a tradition that flounts nasadasin-no-sadasit get itself to do these things ? I dont know..

Great question.

Not a compromise at all. This moral relativism that has crept into Hindusim is a modern phenomena.

Dharma, is closely connected to what maintains order in society. This means, no central agency (GOD, Chairman Mao, Lenin, Marx, Mullah, Priest, Pundit) has the a priori knowledge to plan and chart the course of a organism (not organization). Thus, to believe in any book as one source of knowledge is alien, anathema and indeed confounding to anyone who chooses to be in the Hindu fold. "Na Vedam Veda" - They asked us to not even consider the Vedas to be sacred knowledge. Knowledge evoles in Living Systems! This discussion included

The very idea that one (human, god, devil, book) etc. has infinite knowledge should be challenged.

It is the Dharma of every Hindu - after all we are Arya (Noble) by birth and we follow no book or leader! We are free, yet bound by Dharma!

[RajeshG]

Shivji

This time your thrust is different. This time you are saying that a rot has set in hindus and that we need to resell to hindus (as opposed to others).

If indeed hinduism is not providing what it is supposed to provide or when there are doubts whether it can provide a certain feature then perhaps a user can be provided better training and shown how that same feature (or better stuff) is available.

However this isnt the case. What hinduism cannot provide at this point is an AC, refrigerator etc. What hinduism cannot provide is electricity. Christism cannot provide this either but Christism followers can. To provide gyaan to someone who seeks a color-tv doesnt make sense..

----------

Re criticism.

#a : I guess you are talking about degrees when you distinguish between criticizing-with-disdain and criticizing-with-affection ? Do you agree though that there is need for criticism ?
#b : Not sure what you mean here. Are you saying its not OK to criticize Christism but its ok to criticize christist followers ? If this is indeed the case, then sure, this is as good a strategy as any - basically jaise-the.

[Murugan]

Pulikeshi
Great !

Aum Pulikeshiya Namah:

outta reverence onlee (you are no leader!!!/Pundit etc)

[samuel]

Shivji

The thrust (or assumption) behind your statement is that hinduism needs to be sold to new customers....I dont know, its a tough call, I cant make up my mind - have been chewing on this for a long time (and doing nothing) and i have not been able to make up my mind.

JMT.

This is an insightful post from a Hindu mind.

I think that Hindus in 2007 are behaving mentally exactly like I believe they did when faced with the first organized religious zealots 1000 or more years ago......

With many apologies up front, I do not mean to be glib.

But we are here you know. How remarkable that nothing's shaken us in a 1000 years... Here I am in perfect harmony with my hinduness. But then I ask myself if I am one of those frogs who don't see the approaching storm? Yet, I feel we, Hindus, will be around, if we just focus on the truth we carry within us.

I was with someone at our faculty club one day. Somewhere along a sundry discussion he tells me that papers should be written in a manner palatable to as broad an audience as possible. A part of me became enticed by this noble mission, but the other part responded faster: My objective is to communicate the truth and that is all there is. I walk away from my papers thinking anyone who gets it will be liberated, like me. But it is Alan who gives the crowd the refreshing feel, often leaving me wondering, dang, where'd he get them marketing skills come from. I dont know why I do not want to work the crowd, sell my papers better. But here I am, holding my own, and every so often someone tells me they undertood my paper and really liked it. So the truth lives.

How to sell without losing sight of truth, and how to stay connected to truth without perishing. And that is the central conflict that prevents me from turning into a prosletyzing Hindu, and maybe others too.

My wife is jewish, so I don't know what card my son will carry when he grows. A Hindu however, he already is, from values I give him with all sincerity. Our household has no conflict on the lines of religion. A large part of it rests on we are not the prosletyzing kind. So I dont see the need to market hinduism. I do have my arms open to anyone who wants to join the journey and I need no other mode of salvation. Isn't this enough?

[abhischekcc]

Compassion is the foundation stone of all righteousness .

The first sign of Dharma is in Compassion .

Snatan Daram should be synonymous with Compassion, compassion toward all the living beings .

Compassion has already been copyrighted by the followers of Siddhartha Gautam. You are twenty six centuries late

[RajeshG]

#b : Not sure what you mean here. Are you saying its not OK to criticize Christism but its ok to criticize christist followers ? If this is indeed the case, then sure, this is as good a strategy as any - basically jaise-the.

This statement needs to be elaborated perhaps. We have umpteen individuals (Mahatma Gandhi for eg) who have led this charge. I am probably over-simplifying this but here is a hypothetical conversation.

EJ : Listen heathen, you are worshipping a false-god and are deeply lost in false-religion and you will go to hell. Become an EJ.
Heathen : While Christism is good and it is true that i might go to hell as you say and perhaps i am deeply lost in false-religion and all my gods are false. But you are not a true EJ.

Does this conversation even make sense ? Can the heathen actually say that EJism is false ? And this is what I dont know and would appreciate some light on.

[RajeshG]

Pulikeshiji

What you say makes some sense but then we come back to square one. We have to be willing and able to criticize others. Can we ? I dont know.

[abhischekcc]

With many apologies up front, I do not mean to be glib.

But we are here you know. How remarkable that nothing's shaken us in a 1000 years...

You are so wrong sir. India has suffered the greatest genocides ever in the hands of muslim hordes. Between 10th and 14th centuries, the number of Hindus killed is estimated at arouind 400 million. And you say nothing shook us? Cmon, learn a little history.

My wife is jewish, so I don't know what card my son will carry when he grows. A Hindu however, he already is, from values I give him with all sincerity. Our household has no conflict on the lines of religion.

I think the answer lies in this. Hinduism and Judaism don't have any conflicts. IMO, this is because both are non-proliferating religions (pun intended ), and tend not to step on each others toes.

Its only when you add missionary-ism that the problem starts.

-----------------

I would like members to give their views about this question - Do you think the problem of EJs will be curbed if we ban proselytization?

My answer - on ground, yes, it will curb the problem. Especially if it is punishable by imprisonment or hefty fines of, say, Rs one crore per conversion.

[Pulikeshi]

Pulikeshiji

What you say makes some sense but then we come back to square one. We have to be willing and able to criticize others. Can we ? I dont know.

I just did!

[samuel]

You are so wrong sir. India has suffered the greatest genocides ever in the hands of muslim hordes. Between 10th and 14th centuries, the number of Hindus killed is estimated at arouind 400 million. And you say nothing shook us? Cmon, learn a little history.

Hi abishekcc,
Of course you are absolutely right. Of course, we've been subject to onslaughts. But we weathered them too, did we not. Here we are about 800 million strong. Someone (a lot of people) stood up (and fell down) as Hindus, but they remained that. So here we are, a 1000 years later, not shaken (in that sense alone). Perhaps perish would be a better choice, but I was interpreting the previous writer.

The point being that would we not reduce ourselves to nought, if we turn the prosletyzing kind? Does not our strength come from seeking truth within, and does it not provide strength to stand up and be counted?

I don't know the answers, but I think I do know a fair bit of our history. I am sorry to not have communicated more clearly.

[JwalaMukhi]

Foks JMT,
A hindu is a person who believes that answers to deepest queiries are obtainable by Atma Vichara (Self Enquiry) which leads to sat chida anada (samadhi - everlasting bliss) and indulges in acharaas (rituals in a dharmic way) to cater to the adhyathmika (spiritual) and laukikka (materialistic) aspects of existence, to aid in conducting Atma Vichara.

Multiple san margas are available to pursue that.

Hinduism is a scalable model as it is like a library, catering to increase the knowledge and wisdom (removal ignorance) of the earnest individual. It caters to kindergartners as well as to super specialist researchers. So inherently in Hinduism knowledge and wisdom is never bounded by artifice. This unbounded nature of Hinduism poses a problem to arrive at an acceptable definition to all. Although it is difficult to define, a hindu could be identified as an individual who indulges in one of various san margas viz., bhakthi, jnana, etc., and conducts acharaas (rituals) to aid in removal of ignorance.

Hindus have had misfortune of material poverty in the recent centuries only (due to subjugation), but slowly mental poverty is also being set in. Shivji is right that this mental poverty needs to be addressed in right earnest on an urgent basis.