Religion Thread - 9

Locked
Pulikeshi
BRFite
Posts: 1513
Joined: 31 Oct 2002 12:31
Location: Badami

Post by Pulikeshi »

RajeshG wrote: EJ : Listen heathen, you are worshipping a false-god and are deeply lost in false-religion and you will go to hell. Become an EJ.

Heathen : While Christism is good and it is true that i might go to hell as you say and perhaps i am deeply lost in false-religion and all my gods are false. But you are not a true EJ.
Heathen: EJ, you follow a book which claims to know everything. Further, you claim your true-god wrote this book. It is very easy for me to show that your book does not contain all knowledge, only a subset. If your god were true, he/she/it would not have written an incomplete book and tried to claim it had all the answers.

So, therefore go sell your snake-oil somewhere else. We are not afraid of your hell, or want the benevolence of your not-so-all-knowing god. Thank you!
Last edited by Pulikeshi on 05 Apr 2007 12:16, edited 1 time in total.
Satya_anveshi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3532
Joined: 08 Jan 2007 02:37

Post by Satya_anveshi »

IMHO, the unorganized nature of Hinduism is its greatest strength (with its associated minor weeknesses) which makes it dynamic and yet stable enough to resist transient changes.

People are finding it hard to define Hindusim as a religion because it is not a religion. Religion is a shallow concept and is based on dogma. It is essentially created to give direction to hoards. Religion is not about empowering but to give the hoards direction..."Thou shalt not finger your neighbour", "thou shalt not steal" , "Thou shall worship only this way", "thou shall not do that" etc etc.

If you all see there are limiting certain actions of the hoards. Where as Hinduism does not do so. It does not restrict but it empowers. The moment you define Hinduism it will become dogma. There is no dogma and any path to empowerment is alright. With this type of design, you cannot describe Hinduism as this or that. All one can do is, very much like vedanta..neti neti ...Not this ... not that

Any attempt to define and organize Hinduism will fail and I personally think it is dangerous too. I can't for one moment think the three letter organizations in India represent Hindus or have capacity take the mantel of Hinduism and speak for all Hindus.

Exposing the evil designs of Evangelical Jihadi's and educating people about the real reasons behind the conversions will make it unattractive and is a short term and viable solution.
SRoy
BRFite
Posts: 1938
Joined: 15 Jul 2005 06:45
Location: Kolkata
Contact:

Post by SRoy »

samuel wrote:
abhischekcc wrote: You are so wrong sir. India has suffered the greatest genocides ever in the hands of muslim hordes. Between 10th and 14th centuries, the number of Hindus killed is estimated at arouind 400 million. And you say nothing shook us? Cmon, learn a little history.
Hi abishekcc,
Of course you are absolutely right. Of course, we've been subject to onslaughts. But we weathered them too, did we not. Here we are about 800 million strong. Someone (a lot of people) stood up (and fell down) as Hindus, but they remained that. So here we are, a 1000 years later, not shaken (in that sense alone). Perhaps perish would be a better choice, but I was interpreting the previous writer.

The point being that would we not reduce ourselves to nought, if we turn the prosletyzing kind
? Does not our strength come from seeking truth within, and does it not provide strength to stand up and be counted?

I don't know the answers, but I think I do know a fair bit of our history. I am sorry to not have communicated more clearly.
Samuel,

It will be incorrect to state that we have not lost anything and we have endured to live this day.
The fact that 800 million Hindus are living today somehow creates a diversionary smoke screen to obfuscate the damages done.
Do you count the numbers convert at sword point, libraries with rare artifacts burnt, territories lost, temples looted and razed to the ground as loses? Do ponder over these.
A lot of practices that Hindus take for granted today arose out of defensive mechanism developed in those days. Some of the practices are downright demeaning and humiliating. Are they a gain for Sanatana Dharma?

It will not be nice if future generations were to bear even a fraction of the above. The means and environment available to fight back today are even more constrained then whatever was available 1000 years ago. We need to be careful. We cannot reclaim the past, but we must identify the things that needs to be protected and fought for. First step is realization of the fact that we did lose in the past.

I wholeheartedly agree with you on the proselytizing part. Doing so will mean compromising the very spirit of Sanatana Dharma. But we do need to disseminate the core concepts loud and clear to every member possible of Sanatana Dharma community. That alone will help in countering the EJ onslaught. Besides, we need to manage casteist black sheeps in Sanatana Dharma community as well. They make the task of EJ's easier.
Last edited by SRoy on 05 Apr 2007 12:24, edited 1 time in total.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Post by SaiK »

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/ ... age15.html
Let us just quote two verses in this analysis: (Chapter II: 42, 43):

na vedAnAM veditA kaScid-asti vedena vedaM na vidur na vedyaM / yo veda vedaM sa ca veda vedyaM yo veda vedyaM na sa veda satyaM //

None of the vedas know Him (who is of the nature of the Knower). For the vedas do not help us to know Him nor the known (The World). One who knows the Knower knows also the known. But one who knows only the known knows not the Truth. //

yo veda vedAn sa ca veda vedyaM na taM viduH veda-vido na vedAH / tathApi vedena vidanti vedaM ye brAhmaNA veda-vido bhavanti //

One who knows the vedas, knows the knowable. But neither the knower of the vedas nor the vedas themselves know That. Yet those seekers of brahman who become the knowers of the vedas know brahman with the help of the vedas.
needs Valkan-ization.
Pulikeshi
BRFite
Posts: 1513
Joined: 31 Oct 2002 12:31
Location: Badami

Post by Pulikeshi »

I wholeheartedly agree with you on the proselytizing part. Doing so will mean compromising the very spirit of Sanatana Dharma.
Proselytizing = Viral Marketing.

Banning Proselytizing = Trade barriers bad for interal freedom in religion.

That SD would loose if we Proselytize it true only to the extant that SD culture does not jive with Viral Marketing. However, nothing prevents SD from retaining culture and showing customers Total Cost of Ownership if they choose other ways of life, esp. one that imposes hierarchy and single unit at the top from which everything is derived.

SD can be marketed, and should have a low barrier to entry.
KRINVANTO VISHVAM ARYAM
abhischekcc
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4277
Joined: 12 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: If I can’t move the gods, I’ll stir up hell
Contact:

Post by abhischekcc »

Samuel, I agree that if Hinduism turns to Proselytizing, a large part of Hinduness will become corrupt. Because we will be seeking success in external symbolism/form. And Hinduism is nothing if not pro-content, over pro-form/symbolism.

Still, I do believe that since most of Indian muslims and Xtians are former Hindus, we need to 'save' their souls. :) IMHO, everyone of them (except Pakistani Punjabi Muslims) need to be re-converted.
disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 8264
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Post by disha »

RajeshG wrote: EJ : Listen heathen, you are worshipping a false-god and are deeply lost in false-religion and you will go to hell. Become an EJ.
FWIW. True conversations between me and a EJ:

EJ : Do you want to live forever?
Me: Why do I want to live forever?

EJ: <silence>

Me: Will I age?
EJ: No. You will live forever as you are. You will not age.
Me: They why are you aging?

EJ: <changes subject> You will be in lord's heaven!
Me: What will I do in heaven?

EJ: You will be singing lord's praises!
Me: All day, entire day?

EJ: Maybe.
Me: That is hell to me!!!
:D
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Post by shiv »

RajeshG wrote:Shivji

This time your thrust is different. This time you are saying that a rot has set in hindus and that we need to resell to hindus (as opposed to others).
< snip >
#b : Not sure what you mean here. Are you saying its not OK to criticize Christism but its ok to criticize christist followers ? If this is indeed the case, then sure, this is as good a strategy as any - basically jaise-the.
Salesmanship is never good if you don't aim to maximise sales.

But I think Hinduism needs to be sold first to Hindus. If others buy it I see no harm. Hindus do not have any "traditional gyan" to explain to anyone what Hinduism is all about. That was OK for about 1000 years because nobody was asking - they were only kicking Hindus while the latter just kept what they could.

60 years after 1947 I do not believe that Hindus are equipped to explain to their own children, who may be getting an education in all sorts of places as to what Hindusim is all about.

Ritual has become mumbo jumbo. The performers of ritual find it easier to do that work as a part time job - being "software engineers" or something at other times.

Ask a teenager what Hinduism is all about - he doesn't know and doesn't care. Ask the teenager's father. He cares, but he doesn't know.

Sell to Hindus first and that will also bypass any self doubts (such as you have expressed) about proselytization or not. I am, in any case not advocating "selling" but merely in defining Hinduism in simple, easy to remember terms in words that can be passed on. If non Hindus pick that up where's the harm?

As for point b - you can take whatever meaning suits your viewpoint. I never even expected that my suggestion that an evangelist/Islam-seller should be opposed on the basis of knowledge of the superiority of one's own belief system would lead to this complex split interpretation on your part.
Raju

Post by Raju »

According to Allahabad HC, muslims in UP have ceased to be a religious minority. This is based on Census 2001, 1951 and other data.

Muslims in UP are to be treated henceforth as any other non-minority religious communities.

And muslims in UP are to be treated without discrimination.
Gerard
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8012
Joined: 15 Nov 1999 12:31

Post by Gerard »

Crucifixion ‘repulsive,’ says British clergyman[quote]Traditional thinking about the Christian crucifixion is “repulsiveâ€
Alok_N
BRFite
Posts: 608
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 19:32
Location: Hidden Gauge Sector

Post by Alok_N »

Greg wrote:@Manny

I guess he chose the Christian God in the same way that 99% of the religious people in this world chose theirs - be that Allah or Krishna. They simply pick what they are culturally most attached to - the faith of their parents and immediate family. Religion is by and large coded into a child's brain. Most people who "find" God at a later age are simply "re-finding" the same God and religion that they observed and absorbed as kids.
so Greg, going by that, would you consider EJ activity a "sin" against what is natural to an individual?
Pulikeshi
BRFite
Posts: 1513
Joined: 31 Oct 2002 12:31
Location: Badami

Post by Pulikeshi »

shiv wrote: Ritual has become mumbo jumbo. The performers of ritual find it easier to do that work as a part time job - being "software engineers" or something at other times.
So is decorating a tree with candies and trinkets. (Christmas for the dense!)
Rituals are a part of every religion. Hinduism is old, and has faced many invasions, some rituals are beyond religion and just memes that remain past the trauma of invasion and dimmification. Rituals give purpose and repeatability - a quality well enjoyed by children young and old.

Resurrection of rituals, with explanations, may help the middle-aged father/mother with children and their inquisitive questions, but Hinduism's challenges are deeper. It is not those that live today, neither those that question us, but it is those that are unborn who may never have a chance at freedom, we all enjoy, that should force us to think.

Market to one and all, not just Hindus. Everyone deserves to be free of the hierarchical bureaucratic clutches of codified religions.

Dharma is the only way! Choose freedom!
Alok_N
BRFite
Posts: 608
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 19:32
Location: Hidden Gauge Sector

Post by Alok_N »

Bade wrote:Dont be surprised there is a significant number of even high energy physics experimentalists who believe in faith based evidence of God. :wink:
you took away my option to bash Collins as a mere biologist and hence inconsequential ... :lol:

just kidding, Johann ...

however, the fact remains that only two sets of theories claim to have been operational 10 billion years ago: physics and religion ...

actually, some religions don't wanna go back that far ... :)
Last edited by Alok_N on 05 Apr 2007 19:52, edited 1 time in total.
SBajwa
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5779
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 21:35
Location: Attari

Post by SBajwa »

I was watching Cricket Star last night.

So!! A team had to vote out two weakest players (Robin Singh, Kapil Dev, Manjrekar and Jadeja picked two weakest players one Sikh and One Muslim) based on one 20/20 cricket match they played. These cricket legends thought that the muslim guy was the weakest due to his performance in this 20/20 cricket match.

The team had 4 players who were from north (punjab, haryana, chandigarh), 4 from rest of india., and a Muslim captain from UP.

Here is how voting went.

3 Sikhs and 1 Hindu from North voted the muslim guy to be kicked out.
4 from rest of India voted the Sikh Guy to be kicked out.

So! the decision came down to the muslim captain and he picked Sikh Guy to be voted out. They asked him why he replied that this guy (his muslim buddy from UP) showed him greater potential, they reminded him of his performance in 20/20 match still they muslim captain ignore the performance. SO! what does that teach us?

WE NEED TO BE TOUGH AND SHOW SOME SKIN AT ALL LEVELS.
S.Valkan
BRFite
Posts: 198
Joined: 15 Mar 2006 01:29

Post by S.Valkan »

shiv wrote:Hindus do not have any "traditional gyan" to explain to anyone what Hinduism is all about.
Let me get a bit personal here, Shiv.

Pray tell me WHAT incentive is there for the average Hindu to get 'traditional gyan' in a land where Hindus are in a majority ?

You chose to be a doctor, and earn a fair amount of pocket change.

Did you EVER make an active attempt to get 'traditional gyan' ?

Why not ?

You keep blaming Hindus for the decreasing ratio of "understanders" to "acceptors" among Hindus.

Who the *bleep* among the Hindu gentry cares about reading a book or two, contemplating, and understanding the 'mumbo-jumbo', when it makes more sense to spend those extra hours watching Rakhi Sawant or Mallika Sherawat wiggle their thorax and grind their pelvis with the flimsiest sheer-tassle holding their adipose mounds together, on the myriad of TV channels ?

A fellow forumite here goes the other extreme, and pulls a few attractive academic terminologies from his MBA coursework in Finance, Marketing and Organizational Development, and describes Hinduism and Hindu society in mass-market paperback terms for the elite.

And a bunch of elites here marvel at the originality of such conceptions and 'one word catchphrases'.

IS that what "understanding" Hinduism of the last 5000 years is ?

Would a Telengana Maoist , a Kerala Marxist, a Konkani Tulu, a Marathi Chettiar, a Punjabi Khatri, a Gujarati Baniya, a Rajasthani Jat, a Kanauji Kayastha, a Saryupari Brahmin, a Bengali Vaidya, a Manipuri Vaishnava, and a Tamil Harijan all agree, and be sold on it ?
Raju

Post by Raju »

the trick is to adopt a *slow-float approach*.

teach vedas in schools as part of curriculum. And let one and all learn the glories of India through it. Approach the subject with Scientific methodology and should be non-controversial and acceptable/palatable to all.

If some Hindus wants to dvelve deeper into the subject, they can do so. And those dwelling deeper shall by themselves find out correlations and connections between various rituals as practiced today. They can also trace out the errors if any.

the entire population of India will thus be enlightened.

thus NO HARDSELLING is required. And those who want to learn about hinduism further will be attracted towards it like a human towards exotic incense.

the 'subtle' approach is the best way of propagating hinduism.
shaardula
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2591
Joined: 17 Apr 2006 20:02

Post by shaardula »

Alokji,

I wrote a post earlier in the morning. And just when I was typing the words ‘twilight zo’ the processor crashed. restart only shutdown my enthu.

Anywho, here is a summarized retry…
While (verily ;)) there might be some similarities to science, and while (verily ;)) it might even be science, what we are talking about is essentially unaxiomatic, I am told. The experiment itself is not universal neither is the setup. Experiment setup is perennial but experiment itself is not.

So what I think it means is that reporting on the experiment is not the experiment, and analysis of the experiment is further away from it. As the psychedelic ashwin pawar would say analysis is the playing field of cunning linguists and master debaters, bebi.
(in more ways than one). A lot of things might not lead to experiment setup. But experiment itself does not lead to experiment setup. Thus notes on experiment setup are useless. Previous work and literature survey are useless sections/chapters. University is different from science. In guru speak “there is science in the university but no university in the science.â€
shaardula
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2591
Joined: 17 Apr 2006 20:02

Post by shaardula »

valkan. i think my analogy is better. i think i am the greatest. i will now issue fatwaas and write smritis. (kidding)

but you should also ask. what is the point of this thread? are we trying here to spawn the bruhadraskshakaa, sorry, rakshakasmruti? are we trying to spawn rakshakaananda? keyboard vishwamitra or a notepad parashurama even?

raju...
what does teaching vedas mean? the text? at that age it will only amount to kanThapaaTha - a lesson in phonetics. aka rote learning. it means mostly that to people of all ages. bhashya? which one?

what about bauddha jaina seekh and other books?

the trick is not to replace one hegemony with the other, but to try to keep this diversity alive.


but there are some cool aspects of veda learning that could be popularized. like say how they get 'encryption' to work.

i would be happy if leelavathi type formulations get some visibility in school. who ever does ogaTu (those word puzzles) now? i cant think if i dont write it down on paper. (agantuk character talks about this)
these are nonreligious aspects but they could lead to appreciation of previous achievements and thus hopefully to revival.
Last edited by shaardula on 05 Apr 2007 21:31, edited 1 time in total.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Post by shiv »

Valkan - I believe you have misunderstood the intent of my post - specifically the use of the expression "traditional gyan". But my reply is going to be a long one.

You have confirmed what I believe to be true by saying the following - but you have misinterpreted the context.
Pray tell me WHAT incentive is there for the average Hindu to get 'traditional gyan' in a land where Hindus are in a majority ?
The specific answer to this is near the bottom of this post, but before that..

The lament on this forum was that Hinduism is under threat.

Under ordinary circumstances I would ask for "proof" of this. But I accept that overall - in about 1000 years, there has been a shrinkage of the area which Hindus are free to roam, so Hindus are under threat. So I assume that Hindus and Hinduism is under threat.

Why are Hindus under threat?

I am told that this is because of Evanjihadis and Islam.

That may be so, but I fear that there are deeper forces at work. The deeper forces are the replacement of Hindu society by a majority of Hindus brainwashed over the years (centuries) to forget, sideline an ignore a whole lot of knowledge related to Hinduism.

What proof do I have of this?

Apart from allegations made to this effect by members such as Acharya, it appears that there are other dribs and drabs of evidence suggesting that much knowledge has been lost from the general population. I ask elders for answers to simple questions and such answers are not readily available. I read of much Ayurvedic knowledge having been lost.

DISCLAIMER: I am not suggesting that the knowledge is gone forever. There are people and sources of information, but their concentration per unit Hindu is low.

I believe in a theory of evolution that suggests that when the population of a given characteristic (or species of animal) falls below some critical threshold, its numbers are destined to dwindle and disappear completely. (This is a dumbing down of a more complex theory - but it will do)

I do not know if this is happening to critical bodies of Hindu knowledge, but it *might* be happening. I believe that the risk of waiting to find out is costlier than implementing measures to stem it.

What can be done about this?

I see the "what can be done?" as involving many steps.

The first, easiest and most expedient step is to "revitalize" the Hindus who are at the greatest risk being lost altogether. These are the secular anglophones, the DIE , the elite. These are the "modern","short attention span" types who are most likely to respond to salesmanship and catchphrases. The cost of doing this is so ridiculously low and the benefits if any are so attractive that I believe this is something that needs implementation right away.

Step 2: How to explain Hinduism to anyone in a few easy words? This explanation is to be fed to the people who are looking for quickfire catchphrases and Hinduism for dummies books.

It was in my quest for an answer to this question that I made the following hypothesis:

"Because Hindus have never been asked to explain themselves or their belief system to anyone "in a nutshell" they (Hindus) have never figured out an answer to this question.

If this hypothesis of mine is wrong, I would appreciate proof of my being wrong by pointers to an ancient, already existing "traditional gyan" of "Hinduism for dummies" devised in the past. This was the context in which I used the term "traditional gyan"

Like I said, I believe that traditional gyan DOES NOT EXIST to explain what Hinduism is in 60 words (or some such limit)

We have to create it and disseminate it to make it generally known gyan.

I have more to say about why it may be a good idea - but I will leave that for some other post later. All this is completely unnecessary if Hinduism is not under threat.
Last edited by shiv on 05 Apr 2007 21:58, edited 2 times in total.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Post by shiv »

S.Valkan wrote: Would a Telengana Maoist , a Kerala Marxist, a Konkani Tulu, a Marathi Chettiar, a Punjabi Khatri, a Gujarati Baniya, a Rajasthani Jat, a Kanauji Kayastha, a Saryupari Brahmin, a Bengali Vaidya, a Manipuri Vaishnava, and a Tamil Harijan all agree, and be sold on it ?
I believe you think too deeply and do not have the mind of a petty businessman selling fake Ray-Ban sunglasses at traffic intersections.

It matters llittle if everyone does not buy into "Hinduism for dummies"

As long as it catches one segment of the population -it is a step forward. Every bit counts if we are assuming that Hinduism is under threat and is disappearing.

I would still appreciate more data on exactly what is going from Hinduism and how it is going, but apart from vague allegations I have seen no more proof than that of the overal shrinkage of Hindu geography and the arrival of Islam and Evengelists.

From the viewpoint of a science bhakta the lack of serious data to bite into leads to general solutions aimed at hypothetical problems rather than targeted attack on specifics.
Raju

Post by Raju »

shaardula wrote:but there are some cool aspects of veda learning that could be popularized. like say how they get 'encryption' to work.

i would be happy if leelavathi type formulations get some visibility in school. who ever does ogaTu (those word puzzles) now? i cant think if i dont write it down on paper. (agantuk character talks about this)
these are nonreligious aspects but they could lead to appreciation of previous achievements and thus hopefully to revival.
YYYexactly !

More of this is needed. A lot of 'hard work needs to be put in'. Commonalities with science/arts, as many as possible, have to be researched by the experts and dug out and taught to everyone without any discrimination.

however the core philosophy must be retained and passed on as unmolested as possible. But a condensed format would be appreciable.

the trick lies in condensation/simplification/soft-selling
shaardula
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2591
Joined: 17 Apr 2006 20:02

Post by shaardula »

shiv,
are you pinning the wrong solution to the right question?

hinduism is not at loss because we are not able to state our belief systems in less than 100 words. at somelevel, that we are unable or even refuse to state our belief systems in less than 100 words itself makes us hindu.

but 'hinduism' itself is in danger due to other reasons that need a different set of answers -- a slight rationalization in interpretation or more importantly purging certain corruptions. what makes us hindu is that this rationalization itself is relatively easily digested and propogated. it might not happen in another 30 years. but it will.

from saving 'hinduism' perspective i could not careless, if samskruta itself died tommorrow, if all liturgy were in local languages in its aid. in this scheme of things, sacriligeously, MuKa might have made great contributions to 'hindu' revival.

but what will be lost is finer aspects of samskruta liturgy. that even now, atleast some priests can wonderfully explain and rationalize - this represents a world view. and what is more gravely lost is traditional indic world view. a non symbolic algebra is one aspect of it. and revival of that is a different game. a thread on that is moderated by one ramana.

(and i a wholly sold 'elite' is writing this)
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Post by svinayak »

shiv wrote:
S.Valkan wrote: Would a Telengana Maoist , a Kerala Marxist, a Konkani Tulu, a Marathi Chettiar, a Punjabi Khatri, a Gujarati Baniya, a Rajasthani Jat, a Kanauji Kayastha, a Saryupari Brahmin, a Bengali Vaidya, a Manipuri Vaishnava, and a Tamil Harijan all agree, and be sold on it ?
I believe you think too deeply and do not have the mind of a petty businessman selling fake Ray-Ban sunglasses at traffic intersections.

It matters llittle if everyone does not buy into "Hinduism for dummies"

As long as it catches one segment of the population -it is a step forward. Every bit counts if we are assuming that Hinduism is under threat and is disappearing.
One of my relative told me that there is lot new groups which have come up like the pyramid groups for religion in many areas. It brings people together.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Post by shiv »

Fine Fine Shardula

But what does your post actually mean?
shaardula
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2591
Joined: 17 Apr 2006 20:02

Post by shaardula »

one really upsetting dat point i can contribute is the rapid rise in number of evangelistic churches in the country side. the gall to even think of taking tirupathi. the attempts at 'counselling' and moralizng BPO workers by a bangalore father so on. what happens in orrissa god only knows.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Post by shiv »

shaardula wrote: hinduism is not at loss because we are not able to state our belief systems in less than 100 words. at somelevel, that we are unable or even refuse to state our belief systems in less than 100 words itself makes us hindu.

but 'hinduism' itself is in danger due to other reasons that need a different set of answers -- a slight rationalization in interpretation or more importantly purging certain corruptions. what makes us hindu is that this rationalization itself is relatively easily digested and propogated. it might not happen in another 30 years. but it will.
OK - I am beginning to make sense of this and will accept it for now - until I can figure it out good and proper.

Let me get back to a basic question:

Why do so many people feel that Hinduism is under threat?

From what?

What data is there to suggest that there is a threat?

Agreement or disagreement about solutions revolve around what is perceived as a threat.

What do you think are the threats that put Hindusism in danger? Would it not be possible to point out that all available evidence from the last 50 years suggests that Hindus are on an upswing?
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18426
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Post by Rakesh »

Shiv, good post. If you ask every religion in India...that is their standard answer. Regardless of whether that is the truth or not. Christians in India feel the same and so do the Muslims. Each group is basically trying to protect their own turf, and at the same time wanting it to grow.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Post by SaiK »

Prem,.. so be it!. but not enough in the sense, it should include not limiting to these:-

1. Merged concept for ALL. [all varnas merged theory]
2. Science and SD merged or super-imposed.
3. Look future, keeping the best of past as heritage, and the bad of past as strategic points.
4. Maker stronger presence in terms uplift-ment, empowering, and restructuring in the fundamental principles especially for those who are in the vulnerable zones (including those brahmins who are EJized.. since they know not what they do].
5. All wrongs are corrected for augmentations. This our extreme friends don't do (the parivars).
6. Govt support or based on Voting [issue based politics].
7. Declassify Hinduism as a religion. Make it "way of living" in the implementation.
8. Incorruption standards are set by schools. Thus, there exists no chance for people to commit crimes from the way they live.
9. Incorporation of marketing slogans from other 'Religions' - like peace, love, love thy neighbor, blah..) into SDized slogans that replaces the thoughts and corrects minds.
10. Move and modify for progress. Progression is important part of any setup. No hesitation to change based on the fundamental principles.
shaardula
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2591
Joined: 17 Apr 2006 20:02

Post by shaardula »

it does not mean anything.

but what i understand is that there are atleast 2 different threats.
#1. Hindu count.
#2. Indic worldview.

Why 1 matters is because without 1 there is no hope for 2.

1 is relatively easily fixed/addressed. 2 is difficult. but if count were stabilized then mebbe we can begin to take a stab at 2.
vsudhir
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2173
Joined: 19 Jan 2006 03:44
Location: Dark side of the moon

Post by vsudhir »

Deleted. OT.
Last edited by vsudhir on 05 Apr 2007 22:54, edited 2 times in total.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Post by svinayak »

shiv wrote:

Let me get back to a basic question:

Why do so many people feel that Hinduism is under threat?

From what?

What data is there to suggest that there is a threat?
I think the discussion and question are not being done properly. It is back to square one with the same quesitons.

One simple reality is the education system and media. Compare what was in education system and media in 1967 and 2007.
It has been a slow pre-planned change and social engineering to create the biggest confusion in Indian mind in history. It has created a sense of loss and insecurity among Hindus.

We have false debate in the public media and the terms of the debate are controlled by the marxists, leftists and sociologists.And people are wondering what has happened.
Are the Hindus in the control of their history and education and media potrayal? This is the type of quesitons to be asked.
Sadler
BRFite
Posts: 256
Joined: 30 Oct 2005 10:26
Location: USA-ISRAEL

Post by Sadler »

Rakesh wrote:Shiv, good post. If you ask every religion in India...that is their standard answer. Regardless of whether that is the truth or not. Christians in India feel the same and so do the Muslims. Each group is basically trying to protect their own turf, and at the same time wanting it to grow.
(by each, i am assuming that you are trying to lump the status quo seeking indian faiths with islam and christianism)

If by grow, you mean through proselytization/evangelization, then your statement above is clearly incorrect.

I dont think Hindus in India want to "grow" in the sense of the word that you are trying to convey.

If BRF is any example, i'd say that Hindus are trying to protect their turf onlee.

It is islam and christianism that is trying to "grow" at the nihilistic expense of hindus and other indian faiths.

It is possible that i misconstrued what you meant by "grow." In that case, i am willing to be corrected. Thanks.
Pulikeshi
BRFite
Posts: 1513
Joined: 31 Oct 2002 12:31
Location: Badami

Post by Pulikeshi »

S.Valkan wrote: A fellow forumite here goes the other extreme, and pulls a few attractive academic terminologies from his MBA coursework in Finance, Marketing and Organizational Development, and describes Hinduism and Hindu society in mass-market paperback terms for the elite.
I suggest "The Complete MBA for Dummies" - great book :mrgreen:

Perhaps it is silly mass-marketing paperback terms. It does not have anything to do with Adam Smith, Hayek, Mises and their thinking. C.K. Prahalad's was an idiot to work on Knowledge Management for example and show how organization come into existence. Memes and Memeplexes are silly contructs that do not exist. Neither do Genes and Protiens. (Major sarcasm alert!)

My ideas, I honestly believe are extentions to the Vedic ideas. You are welcome to criticise them. Prepare to be challenged ofcouse :-)
Living Systems as defined and explored by James Grier Miller is the foundation.

Dharma is a social control system. You have a real good understanding of the philosophy of Hinduism. I have no disagreements with you for the most part. However, what you have written above if it was meant for me, I find offensive. In not considering Hinduism's organizational (nay organism's) brilliance you are seeking avidya.

So pray tell me Valkan, if organizational forces have nothing to do with it, how did Hinduism survive such onslaught? What forces keep us dhimmified Hindus from not rejecting traditiona and follow even ones that we do not understand - confounding Shiv and me for example? :-)

We not only survived, but we may be in resurgence.
Dharma has the ability to give Adam Smith a heart - ponder that!
Last edited by Pulikeshi on 05 Apr 2007 22:52, edited 4 times in total.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Post by SaiK »

another question, from argumentative minds, how is it possible to bring about a change or agreement that this is what we all would agree on. the "freedom" is way too freedom that is always flaunted, and hence you see the side-effects - corruption, regionalism, communalism, communism, EJism, jihadics, naxals, disrespect law, etc.

we have gone way too much in providing individual freedom, but on the lines, ignored fundamental realities that is bothering us for collective freedom. we have ignored the concept of collective living, but just took MG's advice on just the paper, and did not worry about it (secularism from practical angle).

this means, we are in for a big change.. and this can happen only in an evolutionary way.. that is put the building blocks of foundation,.. School system.
Raju

Post by Raju »

A fellow forumite here goes the other extreme, and pulls a few attractive academic terminologies from his MBA coursework in Finance, Marketing and Organizational Development, and describes Hinduism and Hindu society in mass-market paperback terms for the elite.
this needs to be encouraged, it could be helpful in selling tricky concepts to time-constrained managers.

Slowly such terminologies will become part of corporate lingo.

And then someone will do an indepth study on this and be enlightened. He might then release a book and many more people will come to know about his experience.

this is how ideas are seeded and faith reaffirmed.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Post by shiv »

Acharya wrote:
One of my relative told me that there is lot new groups which have come up like the pyramid groups for religion in many areas. It brings people together.
A random data point - maybe OT. In the next two months, two young GeneXt relatives of mine are marrying Kashmiri Pandits (one a boy and the other a girl). I have in my own "extended family" people who have married a Muslim girl and Christian girl. Neither are girls any more- they are mature ladies. You meet them and you will never know. There have also been marriages from the younger generation of my family with Gujjus, Bengalis and Punjus. Marriages with Maharashtrians and Tamilians is commonplace. India is becoming a hotch-potch mixture that is unprecedented.

In the meantime a close relative of mine runs a school for little kids. The school has a population of locals in the proportion in which they occur in the population. The locals inlcude a pecentage of Muslims. The children from Muslim families are often brought dressed up as "Krishna" or a Brahmin for fancy dress competitions for kids and the kids have no problem singing the Sanskrit shlokas that are taught along with other prayers and rhymes. The parents raise no objection to this.

Urban India is seeing changes that were unimaginable when I was a young man. Nobody really knows which way this is heading, but none of the pointers are suggesting a violent clash of religions or cultures. The overall thrust - at least in the areas that I have the opportunity to observe is a dedication to integrate. Oh yes there are new mosques and churches. But ther are new temples as well, and Hinduism is alive and healthy.

I do not know exactly what to make of it. I have already advised caution against accusing me of being brainwashed so that I do not see the threat to Hindus. The argument can be struck down with eas in the absence of solid data.

It is with this background that I felt that what might be needed is the bringing down of Hinduism from its complex unreachability and undefineability to what can be understood by all in the new hotch-potch "mixture" that is the new India.

Someone accused forum members of "US worship" in some other thread.

Do I see, in the religion threads an element of "Paranoia of the Church" imported from the US as an extension of worship of the US's omnipotence? Calling me brainwashed or a dhimmi cannot be substitute for solid data that the church is up to tricks in India. Is everything a conspiracy?

Why do people not notice the evangelists?

They are brainwashed

Why do the press not report it?

they are brainwashed and they are owned and funded by christians.

Why does the government do nothing?

Sonia represents the Church. In the absence of better explanations - we could well be chasing windmills.

Is Hinduism under threat, or are sanity and rationality under threat? What are the real threats to Hinduism?
Last edited by shiv on 05 Apr 2007 22:50, edited 2 times in total.
JwalaMukhi
BRFite
Posts: 1635
Joined: 28 Mar 2007 18:27

Post by JwalaMukhi »

I think the discussion and question are not being done properly. It is back to square one with the same quesitons.

One simple reality is the education system and media. Compare what was in education system and media in 1967 and 2007.
It has been a slow pre-planned change and social engineering to create the biggest confusion in Indian mind in history. It has created a sense of loss and insecurity among Hindus.

We have false debate in the public media and the terms of the debate are controlled by the marxists, leftists and sociologists.And people are wondering what has happened.
Are the Hindus in the control of their history and education and media potrayal? This is the type of quesitons to be asked.
Acharayaji, Right on target.

The intent is to firstly dumb down the Hindu mental space and convert the status of a village idiot who will take the abuse dished out from any and every corner. Then install a new operating software on this dumbed mind, so they are pliable and become poor second rate imitations. The questions never ever asked is how come what should any of the alien faiths do to acomodate and adjust such that the native faith is not threatened? It is always how the native faith should be tolerant and be more understanding to the tantrums of the alien faiths?
vsudhir
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2173
Joined: 19 Jan 2006 03:44
Location: Dark side of the moon

Post by vsudhir »

Shiv,

I see your point.

Never intended to call you a dhimmi. Brainwashed? Maybe.

Anyways, shall go back and remove all my posts that by design or by accident reflect either 'church paranoia' or 'US worship'. And shall endeavor to ensure that no such posts happen hence.

Shall continue to lurk on the forum off and on, though. And haunt the T&EC forum.

Goodbye and goodluck, all.
Johann
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2075
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Post by Johann »

Alok_N wrote:
Bade wrote:Dont be surprised there is a significant number of even high energy physics experimentalists who believe in faith based evidence of God. :wink:
you took away my option to bash Collins as a mere biologist and hence inconsequential ... :lol:

just kidding, Johann ...
Not to worry I am in Neat-Chai's splendid solitude at this time :)
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Post by shiv »

JwalaMukhi wrote:
The intent is to firstly dumb down the Hindu mental space and convert the status of a village idiot who will take the abuse dished out from any and every corner. Then install a new operating software on this dumbed mind, so they are pliable and become poor second rate imitations. The questions never ever asked is how come what should any of the alien faiths do to acomodate and adjust such that the native faith is not threatened? It is always how the native faith should be tolerant and be more understanding to the tantrums of the alien faiths?
With respect - this reference to the proverbial "village idiot" and the suggestion that there exists some pure Hindu mind that is yet to be dumbed down to the level of village idiot (who may or may not be Hindu) is unconvincing.

I do agree that the thread is going in cycles and I have been able to play games with forum members.

As long as I make a strong pitch that says Hindus are under threat, no resistance is offered, but no data is offered to say exactly how and why Hindus are under threat.

When I do a 180 degree turn and start alleging that Hindus are not under threat, we get the same old arguments that are unconvincing and nothing new is said other than the same old rants about "socialists, marxists" etc Disbelief is countered by the "You are brainwashed" clause. I don't see this as getting much mileage.

Lets have some data please.

How many children were in schools in 1967. How many in 2007

How many schools have been started?

How many follow a state curriculum? How many follow the CBSE syllabus? How many follow the ICSE sylabus.

Which of these syllabi are following the twisted version of history? Specific examples from current history book please, with examples of what is being taught that should not be taught and what is not being taught that should be taught.

What is it that you want children to learn? Why has nobody posted this alongwith all the complaints about education?
Locked