India Nuclear News and Discussion - June 26-2007

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Gerard
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Post by Gerard »

Executive Director Planning Nuclear Power Corporation of Indian Ltd, S Thakur told Hindustan Times, "In anticipation of India being able to get international cooperation and access to nuclear technology, we are thinking of setting up large capacity nuclear power plants in coastal locations which would be of the order of 6,000 MW to 8,000 MW."
"The investment required for the 6,000 MW to 8,000 MW nuclear power plants would be to the tune of Rs 6 to Rs 7 crore per MW, but I am sure money will not be a constraint," Thakur said.
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Post by jmaxwell »

Gerard wrote:
jmaxwell wrote: India has 16 reactors but produces only 3557 MW whereas Brazil has only 2 reactors but produces 1901 MW. What gives?
Reactor design.
LWRs have larger power outputs for the same core size than PHWRs and for many years India concentrated on smaller 220 MWe clones of the original CANDU PHWR design it acquired from Canada. (Canada's AECL subsequently developed 700 MWe and 900 MWe units). Only in the last decade have 540 MWe and now 700 MWe units been built by India. The Canadian ACR (Advanced CANDU) design is now up to 1200 MWe.
By comparison, the VVER LWR units being built at Kudankulam (which will be the largest reactors in India) are 1000 MWe units.
Gerard, bala thanks for your reply. It confirms what I gathered from Wikipaedia/DAE website. To summarize, I guess the lower production capacity is a combination of insufficient uranium reserves and that the larger MWe PHWR tech has not been developed. Although since our PHWR program is meant only to produce enough Plutonium for the 2nd and 3rd stages, the power outputs for the 1st stage arent the top priority (although getting 900MWe out if aint bad at all :))
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Post by svinayak »

PM: No change in pact
http://www.deccan.com/Nation/NationalNe ... 0in%20pact

New Delhi, July 11: Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, while coming out in strong support of the civil nuclear cooperation agreement with the United States as a "manifest attempt" to break a form of "nuclear apartheid", maintained that "under no circumstances would we compromise our independence of action, or alter the contours of our foreign and defence policies."

The Prime Minister was responding to a letter written to him earlier by top jurist Justice V.R. Krishna Iyer, expressing grave concern about the nuclear agreement. In his reply, Dr Singh asked Justice Iyer to convey this assurance to others who might share similar concerns.

Justice Iyer, in his letter, had appealed to the Prime Minister to "be relentless in defending our swaraj, which shall never be under the pressure of Yankee raj."
Dr Manmohan Singh has said that it was "unfortunate" that the nuclear deal had become an "object of controversy." He said that the approach "we have taken in these negotiations is fully in keeping with our national interests." Describing the energy deficit as the "Achilles’ heel of India’s future growth potential", the Prime Minister said there was an urgent need to overcome the situation.
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Post by Kakkaji »

Aaj ki Taaja Khabar:

Atomic boss in N-team
New Delhi, July 11: When national security adviser M. K. Narayanan sits down to negotiate with his US counterpart Steve Hadley on July 16-17, the composition of his delegation is a sure signal that the nuclear deal being negotiated between the two sides is in its final stages.

Apart from foreign secretary Shivshankar Menon and India’s ambassador to Singapore S. Jaishanker, the presence of atomic energy chief Anil Kakodkar in the high-powered Indian side indicates not only that the department of atomic energy has come on board, but that the entire Indian establishment is speaking in one voice.
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ITER, burning plasma

Post by Sanjay M »

Latest news on India's participation in the ITER project:

http://www.superconductorweek.com/pr/0707tvl/iter1.htm

Since I was just commenting on the idea of a nuclear launch vehicle in the Space Program discussion thread, this made me think of the following:

It seems like most of the obstacles/liabilities with the nuclear rocket are
a) fear of Chernobyl disaster due to launch failure
b) fear of irradiating the crew

Well, B could be addressed if the rocket is purely intended to lift heavy unmanned payloads, allowing the crew to get to orbit by separate alternate means.

As for A, I'm wondering if the rocket could be designed to eject the core to have it parachute to the ground, in the event of a launch failure.

Or else, what about the idea of a fusion process -- like a burning plasma?
Fine, a burning plasma is just a temporary high-energy state which doesn't last, but likewise so too are the H2-burning space shuttle main engines only producing output for about 8 minutes.

The longest duration burning plasma was made to last 28 seconds by Japan's JT-60 experiment.
http://www.jaea.go.jp/english/news/p060 ... ndex.shtml
http://www.jaea.go.jp/english/news/p06052303/all.jpg

IIRC, that was a hundred-fold improvement over previous trials.
If that could be further improved by a factor of 15, then it could be enough to get a rocket into orbit.

When the ITER experiment is conducted, it is expected/targeted to achieve a burning plasma duration of 500s, at 500megawatts of fusion power:
http://www.eurekalert.org/features/doe/ ... 051203.php

So let's suppose that goal is achieved, or even exceeded. Couldn't it then serve as the basis for a powerplant in an Earth-to-Orbit heavy launch vehicle?

Comments? Analysis? Speculations?
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Post by Vick »

I think the NASA Voyager craft used a small nuke reactor. The FSU might have also launched a few with nuke reactors as well.

For journeys to the outer planets (past Mars and the asteroid belt), the sun doesn't provide enough energy for photovoltaics to work. Another energy source is necessary.
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Post by NRao »

Kakkaji wrote:Aaj ki Taaja Khabar:

Atomic boss in N-team
This offer of a safeguarded storage facility, the sources felt, should also take care of the concerns that the US has over the reprocessed fuel being used for India’s military programme.
Does it mean that it could be used for non-safeguarded FBRs and it assumes or is known that such FBRs will not be under the 'military' umbrella?
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Post by Sanjay M »

Vick wrote:I think the NASA Voyager craft used a small nuke reactor. The FSU might have also launched a few with nuke reactors as well.

For journeys to the outer planets (past Mars and the asteroid belt), the sun doesn't provide enough energy for photovoltaics to work. Another energy source is necessary.
Yes, but the NASA craft have merely used small thermoelectric nuclear powe sources, and not full reactors. The Soviets did indeed launch nuclear satellites and spacecraft, including the infamous Kosmos 954 which crashed into the Canadian arctic, causing some radioactive contamination.
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Post by Mort Walker »

Kakkaji wrote:Aaj ki Taaja Khabar:

Atomic boss in N-team
New Delhi, July 11: When national security adviser M. K. Narayanan sits down to negotiate with his US counterpart Steve Hadley on July 16-17, the composition of his delegation is a sure signal that the nuclear deal being negotiated between the two sides is in its final stages.

Apart from foreign secretary Shivshankar Menon and India’s ambassador to Singapore S. Jaishanker, the presence of atomic energy chief Anil Kakodkar in the high-powered Indian side indicates not only that the department of atomic energy has come on board, but that the entire Indian establishment is speaking in one voice.
Here's the transcript of the meeting:

Menon to Hadly: Hiya Steve, how's it hangin? Ya know them Blue Angels look mighty fine! By the way, didja get that call from Jim in Chicago yet?

Hadley: Yup, just sign here on the dotted line...
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Post by Sanjay M »

bala wrote:Besides capacity of the PHWR there is a problem with Uranium supply in India. Indian reservers of Uranium are not much and that is why we have the US-India Nuke deal in process. Thorium reactors are supposed to alleviate this condition but a certain amount of uranium needs to be fed in first.
I don't see why we don't just expand our domestic exploration and mining.
It's possible we may expand our known reserves sufficiently through this.

After all, how much do we need to get the ball rolling?
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Post by Mort Walker »

Sanjay,

If the deal doesn't go through, then domestic mining will get the uranium India needs, but it may be cheaper to import higher enriched uranium.

I hate to use MV Ramana's article as a reference, but it has some useful numbers in it. It states DAE's current requirement is 510 metric tons of uranium and current mining production is 200 metric tons.
Last edited by Mort Walker on 12 Jul 2007 09:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by negi »

Mort Walker wrote:Sanjay,

If the deal doesn't go through, then domestic mining will get the uranium India needs, but it may be cheaper to import higher enriched uranium.
sigh.......wo sab to theek hai but dont you think the amount spend on the Chai biskoot alone during these negotiations would have exceeded the amount needed to set up a full fledged FBR programme.
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Post by Mort Walker »

negi wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:Sanjay,

If the deal doesn't go through, then domestic mining will get the uranium India needs, but it may be cheaper to import higher enriched uranium.
sigh.......wo sab to theek hai but dont you think the amount spend on the Chai biskoot alone during these negotiations would have exceeded the amount needed to set up a full fledged FBR programme.

Probably so, especially if some of these fellows load up the Air India 747 with family and friends for a shopping visit to DC and London.
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Post by Sanjay M »

Cheaper, shmeaper -- what price can be put on freedom?

The strings seem to be rather tight in this deal. We have to put extra safeguards on the reprocessing storage site, which means we're stuck with just the existing breeder(s?) for military purposes. I hope this will be enough.

Seems to me our latest concession has been motivated by the fear of Russia joining the reprocessing cartel and locking us out. I think that US concessions to Russia to obtain this from them would amount to "capping"(constraining) the US in many ways that it would find intolerable.

Oh well, here's the latest re-hash of the obvious:

http://www.indiaenews.com/technology/20070701/58545.htm

Hey, at least we're technically clever, if nothing else.
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Post by nkumar »

http://www.indiareacts.com/archivedebat ... tg=Defence
To understand, therefore, why the Indo-US nuclear deal will fail on India’s reprocessing demand, and to get a perspective on how wrongheaded Manmohan Singh is to blame nuclear scientists for a bad deal that he signed, the impact of the first Pokhran explosion must be recalled. Pokhran I provoked Congress to amend the US Atomic Energy Act (AEA) using the overall NPT concept of nuclear and non-nuclear weapons’ states. Crucially, sections 123, 128 and 129 of the AEA concerning foreign nuclear cooperation, licensing nuclear exports, and termination of cooperation, were vastly expanded and sought to be made non-proliferation proof.
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Post by Sanjay M »

Tell me something -- just how small can one theoretically make a thorium reactor? Could one put it on spaceprobes for example, as a form of thermoelectric generator, as has been done with plutonium, etc?

Sure, I realize that it'd just be simpler to use plutonium, but the stuff is quite dangerous, and hence there's always concern when launching it into orbit. I was just imagining that thorium could diminish that danger somewhat, by reducing the plutonium fraction.

I'm wondering if thorium could even be used to build an unmanned heavy-lift space launch vehicle?
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Post by Sanjay M »

Oh, I see, some of you BRFites have posted this before:

http://www.barc.ernet.in/publications/n ... 610-22.pdf

[quote]COMPACT HIGH TEMPERATURE REACTOR (CHTR)
I.V. Dulera, A. Basak, P.P. Kelkar and R.K. Sinha Reactor Engineering Division, Bhabha Atomic Research Centre

This paper was judged as the Best Poster Paper under the theme “Emerging Nuclear Energy Systems and Conceptsâ€
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Post by Sanjay M »

Anyway, so how do we know the US isn't pretending to show more N-Deal flexibility for the moment just because their man Musharraf happens to be in a tight spot right now? I wouldn't put it past them.
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Post by Gerard »

Canada keen to cooperate with India in nuclear energy
"India requires long-term predictable supply of natural resources of energy including uranium, oil and gas, and Canada is ready to help India," Finance Minister, Jim Flaherty, said.
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Post by Kakkaji »

Mort Walker wrote:
Kakkaji wrote:Aaj ki Taaja Khabar:

Atomic boss in N-team
Here's the transcript of the meeting:

Menon to Hadly: Hiya Steve, how's it hangin? Ya know them Blue Angels look mighty fine! By the way, didja get that call from Jim in Chicago yet?

Hadley: Yup, just sign here on the dotted line...
Let's hope Kakodkar hangs tough and doesn't allow such shenanigans.
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Post by NRao »

Kakkaji wrote:Aaj ki Taaja Khabar:

Atomic boss in N-team
New Delhi, July 11: When national security adviser M. K. Narayanan sits down to negotiate with his US counterpart Steve Hadley on July 16-17, the composition of his delegation is a sure signal that the nuclear deal being negotiated between the two sides is in its final stages.

Apart from foreign secretary Shivshankar Menon and India’s ambassador to Singapore S. Jaishanker, the presence of atomic energy chief Anil Kakodkar in the high-powered Indian side indicates not only that the department of atomic energy has come on board, but that the entire Indian establishment is speaking in one voice.
Manmohan and Bush in telephonic talk before next week's make or break meeting
It is expected that Department of Atomic Energy (DAE) chief, Anil Kakodkar, will accompany national security advisor, MK Narayanan, and foreign secretary, Shiv Shankar Menon, to Washington. The ambassadors of the two countries, Ronen Sen and David Mulford will also be part of the talks.
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Post by sivab »

Nuclear deal in ‘make or break’ zone

[quote]Siddharth Varadarajan

‘Talks will show if U.S. is taking Indian concerns seriously’

New Delhi: While nobody on the Indian side expects next week’s talks between India and the United States to fully remove the major obstacles standing in the way of the proposed nuclear cooperation (123) agreement, officials here say the interaction will at least provide them with a “clear understanding of the [Bush] administration’s intentions.â€
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Post by sivab »

The last mile in the nuclear negotiations

[quote]M.R. Srinivasan

A timeline that is arbitrary would only put pressure on the Indian negotiators and may lead to an agreement neither acceptable to the Indian people nor in the national interest.

The historic agreement between Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and United States President George W. Bush concluded on July 18, 2005, declared their resolve to “transform the relationship between their countries and establish a global partnership.â€
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Post by NRao »

Good to see Indian Scicom bringing others into the fold.
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Post by Arun_S »

jmaxwell wrote:Gerard, bala thanks for your reply. It confirms what I gathered from Wikipaedia/DAE website. To summarize, I guess the lower production capacity is a combination of insufficient uranium reserves and that the larger MWe PHWR tech has not been developed. ... . .
The low production capacity is only due to India specific NSG(Nuclear Suppliers Group) hostile cartel erected by unkill USA, that forced India to first master the technology and then muster local loan/finances to locally build the 200MWe power plants. It was not because of paucity of Nuclear fuel/mining or reserve. In fact Uranium mining was in excess that resulted in fuel pile up and Finance Minister Man Mohan Singh forced closing of Uranium mines, drawing Uranium from stockpile since then, until last year when they woke up to fast depleting stockpile and fixed mine outputting low volume fresh Uranium.
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Post by Kakkaji »

OK, there is something black in the lentils. Lots of details hence posting in full:

Nuke boss in two minds on trip to US
Washington, July 12: As he packs his bags for next week’s decisive talks here with the Bush administration on the nuclear deal, national security adviser M.K. Narayanan is discovering to his dismay that he has to negotiate not only with the Americans, but also with his own delegation.

With his typical cunning, the hallmark of a life-long intelligence officer, Narayanan proposed to Anil Kakodkar, chairman of the atomic energy commission, on Sunday that Kakodkar should accompany him and foreign secretary Shivshankar Menon next week to Washington for what is viewed here as make-or-break talks with the US on the so-called 123 Agreement to operationalise the nuclear deal.

Kakodkar had last week nominated his protege, Ravi Grover, who has the dual titles of director of the Department of Atomic Energy’s Strategic Planning Group and associate director of the Technical Coordination and International Relations Group at Bhabha Atomic Research Centre, to travel to the US for the negotiations.

It was Grover’s mastery over technical details that prevented the Americans from pulling the wool over the Indians during technical talks in London in May on the 123 Agreement’s text, which is still eluding a consensus.

Kakodkar agreed to Narayanan’s proposal and on Monday it was conveyed to the Americans in New Delhi that the czar of India’s nuclear establishment would be part of next week’s talks.

For the national security adviser, who will be leading the Indian negotiating team for the first time since the announcement of the Indo-US nuclear deal, Kakodkar’s willingness to go to Washington was a big win. If Kakodkar is right there in the negotiations, he cannot carp later on about any sellout by India in the 123 Agreement, Narayanan calculated.

Besides, without Kakodkar’s presence, the Indians would have had to tell the Americans that they needed to get back to the atomic scientists for consultations on any compromise that the Bush administration may propose.

Most of all, Narayanan calculated that the scientific community’s confidence in the negotiating process would be strengthened by Kakodkar’s presence.

However, at the time of writing, Kakodkar has developed doubts about the wisdom of going to Washington at this stage.

Those in his establishment who have reservations about the nuclear deal have told Kakodkar, rightly, that given the format of next week’s round, he could be reduced to a bystander and an observer in the negotiations.
That is because if there is a deadlock in the talks next Tuesday or Wednesday, Narayanan would be talking to his US counterpart, Stephen Hadley, to break the impasse.

Menon, for his part, would be dealing with his opposite number in the Bush administration, Nicholas Burns.

Almost everybody else in the Indian team will have a US counterpart: except Kakodkar.

The Prime Minister’s Office is hoping that Kakodkar will not change his mind. His withdrawal from the negotiating team could be a bad augury for next week’s meetings, which will have all the substance of an Indo-US summit on the nuclear deal.

Most of the men and women who would have advised US President George W. Bush and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on a final decision at any structured summit would be at Tuesday’s talks.

These talks further acquired the trappings of a summit yesterday when Bush and Singh talked on the phone and signalled a political push for the negotiations.

The only other Indian negotiator next week without an American counterpart will be D.B. Venkatesh Varma, an Indian Foreign Service officer now on deputation to the Prime Minister’s Office.

Varma is the only PMO official who can read the minds of both Narayanan and external affairs minister Pranab Mukherjee, having worked with both men.

He will shortly be moving to Geneva to deal with disarmament and his presence in the negotiating team is an indication of India’s strategy to deal with the fallout of the nuclear deal on the Fissile Material Cut-off Treaty and related issues to be negotiated at the UN Conference on Disarmament in Geneva.
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Post by svinayak »

Wy shoud such an article be reported. It has too much detials unless it is a wool
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Post by NRao »

Because it completes the circle:
NRao wrote:
Kakkaji wrote:Aaj ki Taaja Khabar:
Manmohan and Bush in telephonic talk before next week's make or break meeting
It is expected that Department of Atomic Energy (DAE) chief, Anil Kakodkar, will accompany national security advisor, MK Narayanan, and foreign secretary, Shiv Shankar Menon, to Washington. The ambassadors of the two countries, Ronen Sen and David Mulford will also be part of the talks.
Final step would be: "He is not going".
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Post by Satya_anveshi »

It could also be that in US there is a plan to announce the sellout as victory. If Kakodkar goes, he will be marginalized and will be used only to show that he was on board the sellout like he was made to once already (recall AK had to smiling say that he was OK with the deal during Bush's visit and Bush commented that if AK is fine he has no worries. The screw up happened inspite of that). If he is NOT going, the sellout team will say..see we invited him but he did not come or someone who is representing Kakodkar was OK with the deal.

Both ways, the old man's (MKN's) strategy will work. so..it is fair to assume that the screw up is complete.

I humbly suggest AK should NOT be visiting US.
Last edited by Satya_anveshi on 13 Jul 2007 12:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Mort Walker »

We may be reading too much in to it. AK may or may not go, as he's got other things to do or really doesn't like politicos too much. The article could be speculating about Narayanan's intentions.

The person that needs to be involved in this is Walter James "Jim" McNerney, Jr. CEO of The Boeing Company.
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Post by Satya_anveshi »

He will get what he wants without being part of the meeting. They (US Corp's) are well represented and some more.
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Post by Sanjay M »

So really, what accepting this N-Deal boils down to, is how much cost/inconvenience we suffer in order to achieve nuclear freedom.

If we sign the deal, we reduce the cost/inconvenience but curtail/cap our freedom. But if we reject the deal, we increase the cost/inconvenience while being able to achieve full freedom. In my opinion, the cost hike is not that much -- so we should opt for freedom over cost reduction.

Let's just increase our mining, and vastly improve our uranium stockpiles. That's good enough -- and we don't have to grope our way through these negotiating minefields.
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Post by pradeepe »

Kakkaji wrote:OK, there is something black in the lentils. Lots of details hence posting in full:

Nuke boss in two minds on trip to US
Washington, July 12: A M.K. Narayanan is discovering to his dismay that he has to negotiate not only with the Americans, but also with his own delegation.

With his typical cunning, the hallmark of a life-long intelligence officer, Narayanan proposed to Anil Kakodkar, chairman of the atomic energy commission, on Sunday that Kakodkar should accompany him and foreign secretary Shivshankar Menon next week to Washington for what is viewed here as make-or-break talks with the US on the so-called 123 Agreement to operationalise the nuclear deal.


Kakodkar agreed to Narayanan’s proposal and on Monday it was conveyed to the Americans in New Delhi that the czar of India’s nuclear establishment would be part of next week’s talks.

If Kakodkar is right there in the negotiations, he cannot carp later on about any sellout by India in the 123 Agreement, Narayanan calculated.

Most of all, Narayanan calculated that the scientific community’s confidence in the negotiating process would be strengthened by Kakodkar’s presence.

However, at the time of writing, Kakodkar has developed doubts about the wisdom of going to Washington at this stage.

The Prime Minister’s Office is hoping that Kakodkar will not change his mind. His withdrawal from the negotiating team could be a bad augury for next week’s meetings, which will have all the substance of an Indo-US summit on the nuclear deal.


What a dysfunctional approach, IMHO. For a layman, it seems like much effort into outwitting each other on the same team than the other side. Hopefully thats only for a layman like me, and theres a strong and unifying chankianness under all this.
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Post by ramdas »

Now that it is known that elements like MMS have indeed sold out, we must analyse the damage. Is there a hope that a future dispensation can undo this sellout ? Is there a way to bring such elements like MMS and his gang to justice ? Unfortunately, while the system catches a small criminal or two and takes years to bring them to justice, such big fish get away under the cover of " i am doing what i think is best for the nation's interest" while criminally compromising national sovereignity.
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Post by Satya_anveshi »

Both alternatives (UPA and NDA) are heavily influenced by the West's interest at the cost of our national interest. Only and only a govt fall on this issue can save us from ever getting into this kind of mess. Seemingly that chance exists through revocation of their support to UPA by left parties but that is not going to happen. For a forseeable future there won't be any dispensation in New Delhi that will NOT (try to) do exactly the same thing. I would argue that NDA will even more blatant in sellout than UPA as evidenced in their Enron fiasco and other divestments.

This is a very difficult pill to swallow for jingos and other self respecting countrymen.
Last edited by Satya_anveshi on 13 Jul 2007 11:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by UPrabhu »

Whose NSA is Narayanan? ours? doesnt look like ours from the above report.
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Post by UPrabhu »

Dont compare NDA to this MMS .. MMS is indian only by his and our bad luck
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Post by UPrabhu »

Dont compare NDA to this MMS .. MMS is indian only by his and our bad luck
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Post by Sanjay M »

It shouldn't be upto one guy to have the burden of saving India's nuclear (military/energy) sovereignty.

The problem is that our media aren't adequately accountable to the people, nor are our politicians. We don't even have any PAC groups.
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Post by Satya_anveshi »

No. He is representing DAE and I also assume he has PK Iyengar, Sethna and Sreenivasan's (three former chairmen of DAE), entire scientific community and few of India's well wishers support behind him.
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