Tackling Islamic Extremism in India

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Pulikeshi
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Post by Pulikeshi »

ramana wrote:surinder wrote:
A heavily divided society (caste, or varna or whatever) is ennervated. It wastes its energy on defining, maintaining and enforcing burdensome useless & stupid caste rules........
IOW it fosters group divisions and lack of common interests as group members see themselves as part of the group and not the organic whole.

For example the first historical empire Mauryan was not Kshatriya and its successor Sungas were Brahmins. M.N. Srinivas calls this Sanskritization. All this stopped with the two colonizations-Islamic and European for they provided an outlet or siphon to the group aspirations by process of conversions.

Here is something I am working on:

In an ever changing world does Mintzberg’s Machine Bureaucracy have an advantage over the chaotic, organic Functional Anarchy ?

The answer –like most legal advice – It depends :mrgreen:

The Judeo-Christian-Islamic triad is representatives of the Machine Bureaucracy style of functioning. Sanathana Dharma (Hinduism for short) is an example of the Functional Anarchy . The former has many advantages, in that there is unity in thought, purpose and action, whereas the latter seems to suffer from inaction and constant churn. However, the latter is more resilient to change and the external shock, as it is naturally hardened by internal systemic shocks with some regularity. In contrast, the former system is unable to handle external shocks and internal churn effectively and progressively degenerates in the latter, but for the efforts of the few to search for the representation of purity in the bureaucracies’ original form.

This phenomena of searching for purity, is explained by the existence of fundamentalists at best, and at worse the extreme actors who want to enforce such purity on all others tend to employ politics to achieve their goals. The Islamists are excellent specimen of such a group.

Caste did not fail the Hindus! Hindus failed the caste system
Of all the civilizations ravaged by Islam guess which one survived?
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Post by Prem »

Sanku wrote:
shiv wrote:We are welcome to continue to be an islamic state in word and deed - but we have to boot out Islam where it impinges on our laws, our constitution and our ways.
O I cry every night trust me; and every time I walk through my country; I cry trust me.

However it is possible that the people saying "not my fault" are people who are actually not at fault in the sense that they did are not guilty of acts of commission; acts of Omission? Sure we are all except perhaps folks like Nathuram Godse etc; what will you have us do; go out and fight on the street when a Mob attacks Talisma Nasreen? Or god forbid you actually want us to go out and vote!?! :eek: :shock:

PS> Goverence thread issue; Man the trouble I have in getting a voters card for my new place. Sigh.... :cry:
Godse act symbolize the Hindu response and reaction which was supposed to be dead phenomenon in secular doves' mind. These coward dhimmis are still trying to rob the the vitality and refuse to accept the truth .
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Post by Murugan »

my two paisa in tackling isalimc extremism specific to india:

AT THE EARLIEST, please throw out this so called kshatriya varna HRD Minister.

Look at your kids' history and other books and you will find that they are indeed imbibing PSEC values

Days are not far, continuing to learn this Pinko values, our third generation will be offering Namaz 5 times a day.

First Thing First.

Ukhad Phenko
JwalaMukhi
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Post by JwalaMukhi »

Pulikeshi wrote: Here is something I am working on:

In an ever changing world does Mintzberg’s Machine Bureaucracy have an advantage over the chaotic, organic Functional Anarchy ?

The answer –like most legal advice – It depends :mrgreen:

The Judeo-Christian-Islamic triad is representatives of the Machine Bureaucracy style of functioning. Sanathana Dharma (Hinduism for short) is an example of the Functional Anarchy . The former has many advantages, in that there is unity in thought, purpose and action, whereas the latter seems to suffer from inaction and constant churn. However, the latter is more resilient to change and the external shock, as it is naturally hardened by internal systemic shocks with some regularity. In contrast, the former system is unable to handle external shocks and internal churn effectively and progressively degenerates in the latter, but for the efforts of the few to search for the representation of purity in the bureaucracies’ original form.

This phenomena of searching for purity, is explained by the existence of fundamentalists at best, and at worse the extreme actors who want to enforce such purity on all others tend to employ politics to achieve their goals. The Islamists are excellent specimen of such a group.

Caste did not fail the Hindus! Hindus failed the caste system
Of all the civilizations ravaged by Islam guess which one survived?
Absolutely, functional anarchy has its strength and as pointed out which civilization survived is true . The major flaw with functional anarchy is it will produce a society of capable adapters, but rarely achievers. Basically, the society will adapt to anything that it is dished out with.
It is important to know when a zero sum game(Islamism is definitely one) is being pursued by the opponent there is little or no meaning in adapting win-win proposition, because that is what survivability points to. When the game is zero sum it should be essential that the system be capable of producing not just adapters but also achievers, so winner takes all. It is essential that in zero sum game second place is going to be temporal at best. If one is hailing second place, it will be irresponsible because the focus needed to compete and complete to the finish line will be lost. Either the game should be forced to be non-zero sum or winning should be absolute, barring this anything else will be pyrrhic at best.
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Muslim extremism in India

Post by MuthuswamyM »

Jihad in India: An Interview with Moorthy Muthuswamy

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Re ... 6C4F6C8D7B

FP: What inspired you to write this book?

Muthuswamy: India has been a longstanding victim of Islam-inspired terror. There has been a need to address this terror issue comprehensively. This is also a humanitarian problem. Already an impoverished nation, millions of Indian children are going hungry and getting malnourished due to economic bleeding imposed in the name of Islam.

Toward the second half of 1990s I began to publish on this issue mostly in the South Asian context. Since the 9/11 attacks, my focus has shifted to include America.

Even after six years into the anniversary of 9/11 attacks, we are still struggling to identify the enemy, let alone figure out how to defeat him. However, in my view, we may be closer to realizing, at last, the parameters of waging a successful war on terror. I wanted to bring it to the audience by writing this book.
Pulikeshi
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Post by Pulikeshi »

JwalaMukhi wrote: It is important to know when a zero sum game(Islamism is definitely one) is being pursued by the opponent there is little or no meaning in adapting win-win proposition, because that is what survivability points to. When the game is zero sum it should be essential that the system be capable of producing not just adapters but also achievers, so winner takes all. It is essential that in zero sum game second place is going to be temporal at best. If one is hailing second place, it will be irresponsible because the focus needed to compete and complete to the finish line will be lost. Either the game should be forced to be non-zero sum or winning should be absolute, barring this anything else will be pyrrhic at best.
What is winning? What is the time frame? Why play their zero sum game?
If we play their game, we end up becoming "them"

A better strategy is for us to adapt ourselves to pose them no choice but to play the game of our liking.
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Re: Muslim extremism in India

Post by shiv »

MuthuswamyM wrote:Jihad in India: An Interview with Moorthy Muthuswamy

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Re ... 6C4F6C8D7B
Good interview. Tells it like it is. Some concepts go beyond BRF - esp use of elite which is an interesting thought.

Congrats and welcome back. You were possibly too early for your time in your earlier avatar.
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Post by shaardula »

i know the thread is india specific islamism, but the happenings in malaysia show our attitude to tackling islamism.

Children of a lesser God

DASU KRISHNAMOORTY on the Indian media's blind eye to the protests of ethnic Indians in Malaysia.

Everyone in India knows Indra Nooyi or Mira Nair. But how many know Basudeo Pande or Jagennath Lachmon? Hardly any. These are all children of indentured labor who were cheated to travel to distant and unknown horizons in South and East Africa, the West Indies, Mauritius, Fiji, Ceylon and a score of exotic islands in the Pacific Ocean to toil and die on plantations of the colonizers. Our governments ritually remember them on Bharatiya Pravasi Diwas. Their apathy to the state of these people is shared by our media too, fresh evidence coming from the blind eye they turned to recent events in Malaysia.

How long ago did you see a news item in the Indian media about these people? We however read about Mike Tyson going to jail for a day or the latest peccadilloes of Paris Hilton or Lindsay Lohan. For our media Indians reside only in the US, UK, Canada and Australia. Neither our media have space nor has our Foreign Office time to see what is happening to ethnic Indians who are the poorest segment of the Malaysian population. Worse, they are disenfranchised. They are stereotyped in Malaysian media as alcoholics and gangsters. Our newspapers are as loathe to posting correspondents in these countries as our journalists are loathe going there except in the company of the prime minister.

In Malaysia, temples are razed to the ground and we learn about it first from the International Herald Tribune. It is not a sudden development that has taken the Indian media by surprise. The plight and persecution of Indians in Malaysia has been there since the country became independent in 1957 and became a religious state. The IHT reported on 23 November arrests of Indian leaders who were planning a mass rally on 25 November before the British High Commission demanding reparations for bringing them to Malaysia as indentured labour. The rally plans were also a response to the demolition by the government of a 100-year old temple, the Malaimel Shri Selva Kaliamman temple. Of this, The Times of India alone carried a Reuters report about rally plans.

Our media hands were too full of how the UPA and West Bengal governments are struggling to ward off charges of minority appeasement following the Taslima episode to pay attention to a community of plantation labour. The only person who was moved to write in the Business Standard about the plight of these indigent people is Sunanda Datta Ray, the country's most respected journalist. Malaysia's Islamization drive included a ban on secular courts from overruling verdicts by Islamic courts in cases where non-Muslims are involved. Datta Ray wrote how Islamization began with the disgraced Anwar Ibrahim mobilized Muslim youth to enforce Islamic values. Hindus and to a lesser extent (since they are richer) the Chinese have since been victims of competitive Islam, said Ray.

Sunday's unprecedented but peaceful demonstration by tens of thousands of ethnic Indians came in defiance of warnings by the government that it would be suppressed ruthlessly. Suppress they did, with the help of teargas, water cannon and pepper spray. Leaders have been charged with sedition, though freed later. Nearly all Indian newspapers reported the rally, courtesy Reuters. Many carried a picture. The only newspaper to make a comment, Hindustan Times, wrote a very effete edit, affectionately describing the Malaysian police action as alleged. But I haven't seen the Indian TV covering it or borrowing clips from the BBC. They perhaps have more important events like the visit of Bachan family to the Dwarakadheesh temple or when and how Tendulkar will overtake Brian Lara.

The UPA government did not seem to know the happenings in Malaysia until Tamil Nadu Chief Minister Karunanidhi wrote a letter to Prime Minister Manomhan Singh on Wednesday, expressing deep concern at the treatment meted out to Malaysian ethnic Indian community. Karunanidhi himself was ignorant of the events till activists of Hindu Munnani, a Tamil Nadu based religious and cultural organization, staged a protest demonstration in Chennai.

The police in Kaula Lumpur detained over 240 ethnic Indians. Malaysia's Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi warned he may invoke a security law sanctioning indefinite detention without trial to curb street demonstrations. Datta Ray said, 'Though the (Malaysian) constitution's Article 3(1) says "other religions may be practiced in peace and harmony," Article 121(1A) subordinates the judicial system to Islamic courts. The implementation of Article 121(1A) is the last straw. Every so often a Hindu family is plunged into despair with the mullahs claiming that the father or mother converted to Islam, possibly when dying. There is no redress against their ex parte verdict as was highlighted with the forced burial of a 36-year-old Tamil Hindu soldier and mountaineer, M Moorthy, as a Muslim, over the protests of his Hindu wife.'

Malaysian news agency Bernama quoted Badawi as saying that the Internal Security Act, which permits detention without trial, is a preventive measure to preserve peace and order. 'Many Malaysians, both Hindus and non-Hindus, are in protest mode with increasing signs of lack of proper respect for all religions in the country and especially after the insensitive and sacrilegious demolition of the temple,' said opposition leader Lim Kit Siang.

Neither the Government of India nor any political party raised its voice. A 40-member Malaysian delegation is now in Delhi. Nobody from the media cared to ask them about what's happening to Indians in their country. Datta Ray pointed out how Singapore's Lee Kuan Yew speaks for the Chinese minority in Malaysia and lamented, 'No one does for Indians.' Is it because they are children of indentured labour? Compare this to Hillary Clinton's appeal to her government to ask the Saudi administration to be fair to a 19-year-old rape victim sentenced by a shariat court to 200 lashes and six months in jail. The US government spoke to the Saudi prince who was in the States to attend a Middle Peace summit.

Our media and foreign office make us believe that there are minorities only in India and not elsewhere. Our secularism is so pristine that Indian minorities in Muslim countries are not its concern. Are they children of a lesser God? Our embassies and consulates come to life only when a minister from India is visiting. People of Indian origin are not their concern. Indian media in the US are full of stories about the arrogance, indifference and inertia of our embassy and consulate officials.

Has our government protested to Kaula Lumpur? Can any newspaper send its reporter? Or, do they send reporters only to Cannes to cover film festivals or Frankfurt to cover a book fair? Hindustan Times edit does not even ask the government to protest and demand that the Malaysian delegation now in the capital be asked to convey our displeasure to their government. I hope our secular policies do not come in the way of doing so. But what is the Hindu doing when the majority of Malaysian Indians are Tamils?

Parliament is as silent as everyone else.
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Post by Murugan »

Actually it is ONLY the Macaulay in India that held Islamism at bay. Remove that and we have a fully Islamic nation because Hindus minus Macaulay are nothing.
This is a piskological insult to Shivaji Maharaj, Tarabai, Bajirao etc who tried their level best to get rid of islamists. macaulite hindus most favourite pastime is to minimize themselves

Let it be clear that Hindavi Swarajya was not just a dream of shivaji. Bajirao took that lakshya to next level.


while macaulite are given credit, it should be remembered that islamists' back was broken and completely weakened by many Hindus who started sheeding their piskological delights and began converging for something concrete action to drive out the islamists.

the other question arises, why macaulay's descendents are cowed down to islamists in their own land of londonistan? Where has macaulite brilliance has gone? why they are still fumbling to find out a solution to tackle european jihad in their own backyard?

This extremist terrorist type of islamism is a disease for which a perfect vaccination is yet to be found. the ram ban dawai is yet to be made.

***

IMVHO, most of the macaulite hindus are like donkey sh8ts who will never remain together.

Despite the terrorist breathing on our neck, islamist and evangelics trying hard to change the demography, mcaulite hindus will still not support any hindu organizations, will never get exhaust of their piskological resources to prolong and decide on some concrete action, will keep on critisizing themselves and other fellow hindus and conveneintly forget the mantra of moden times:

Sanghe Shakti Kali-Yuge!

Thunk Udao!
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Post by Murugan »

how the heck can one give credits to macaulites:

The Persian Invasion of 1740 by Nadir Shah

Some 80 years after Shivaji when the Mughal Empire had been weakened by repeated Maratha attacks, the Afghan raider Ahmed Shah Durrani (Abdali) invaded North India. As the Mughals were past their prime and were now living at the mercy of the Marathas, they did not dare oppose Ahmed Shah. The task of challenging him was left to the Marathas. The Marathas who then were on their ascendancy in North India had since the first Persian-Afghan invasion by Nadir Shah, the king of Persia in 1740, established themselves as a dominant power in Northern India. The 20 years from 1740 to 1760 saw a see-saw battle between the Afghans and the Marathas for the domination of North India.

With the defeat of Mohammed Shah, the Moghul Emperor in 1740 by Nadir Shah (in whose army Ahmed Shah Abdali was a general), the Mughal power steadily declined and its place was usurped by the Rohillas who were led by an ambitious and ruthless chieftain named Najib Khan. Najib's ambition was to supplant the Moghal Emperor and crown himself as the ruler of India by capturing Delhi.

The Marathas Liberate Punjab

But the growing power of the Marathas in their northward expansion, stood between Najib and his ambition. To overcome the Marathas, in 1755, Najib invited Ahmed Shah Abdali from Afghanistan to help him in defeating the Marathas and crown himself the ruler of India. In this, he was thwarted by the Marathas who decisively defeated the Rohillas and Afghans near Delhi in 1756. The defeat was so decisive that Najib Khan surrendered to the Marathas and became their prisoner. The Maratha forces were led by Shrimant Raghunath Rao and Malhar Rao Holkar.

After defeating the Afghan-Rohilla forces, the Marathas pursued the Afghans into the Punjab and beyond up to the Khyber pass. The last frontier of the Marathas was at Attock in today's NWFP (or Paktoonistan) on the Afghan border. (This campaign of the Marathas led by Shrimant Raghunath Rao is called as Raghu's Bharari - i.e. whirlwind campaign.

Thus after nearly 800 after the last Punjabi King Tirlochan Pal Shahi had been defeated by Mahmud of Ghazni in 1020 C.E. did that part of India come under Indian rule in 1756 due to the liberation of Punjab by the Marathas.

***

Before panipat happened:
"All Mohammedans of India will remain with Abdali. Courtiers of Mughals are involved in conspiracy. You must not trust them, yet you must listen to them."

- Jat Maharaja Suraj Mal's visionary advice to the Marathas before the fateful battle of Panipat.
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Post by Murugan »

can we take lesson from this:
The Council appealed to Sujan Singh (Maharaja Suraj Mal) to express his views. He stated:

"Honourable Chairman! The principality of our country is in the hands of Peshwa in these days. The Mughals are nominal emperors. Their court has become as arena of clowns and jokers. This time you come here as a leader of Maharastra Mandal sent by Peshwa. You have passeda distance of thousands of miles to save the country and religion.

All our wealth and lives are dedicated to you. Do not fear Abdali. We stand for the prestige of Peshwa. These days Peshwa is like a sheet (Chadar) to cover the Hindu faith. You are his brother and you have a keen desire to strengthen India. You are our representative. We, on behalf of all the Hindus of India, offer you respect equal to the Peshwa. In the first instance you are a Brahmin and besides you are a crown of Hindus. We shall sacrifice our everything on you. My 25,000 soldiers, 60 cannons and all the army of Sarv-Khap panchayat of Haryana will be in your service. Think a little over my views, and the rest is up to you to accept it or not. You are elder and elders may only be beseeched.
This stand-off continued for one whole year from the 14th of January 1760 up to the 14th of January 1761. This led to the fall in the morale of the stranded Marathas and ultimatley led to their defeat at Panipat. The Marathi term "Sankrant Kosalali" meaing "Sankranth has befallen us" comes from this event. During this stand-off the Afghans cut-off all supplies to the huge Maratha army. The Afghans with Najib Khan meanwhile also recaptured Delhi and Kunjpura. On the decisive day of 14th January 1761 (Makar Sankranti), the Marathas decided to break-through the Afghan blockade and re-enter Deccan. The disastrous battle saw about one hundred thousand Maratha troops being slaughtered in a matter of eight hours. But the Afghans too suffered heavy losses and decided enough was enough and went back to Afghanistan never to return to India.


But in spite of the rupture in the Jat-Maratha alliance, 25,000 Jats from the Sarv Khap, did support and fight against the Muslims alongside the Marathas at Panipat. Many of them had to pay the ultimate price and attained Veergati along with many of their Maratha clansmen.

And after the disastrous Battle of Panipat many retreating Maratha soldiers, some badly wounded, were given refuge in Bharatpur and were also given a couple seers of atta and 1 rupee each to allow them to continue their journey to Gwalior. The Peshwa noble's women folk were given hospitality in the Bharatpur fort. As befitting their rank, Surjmal provided provisions and armed escorts for them to make their onwards journey in safety - this account according to a Franciscan monk journeyed through that area immediately after the Battle of Panipat.


The defeat of the Marathas and the withdrawal of the Afghans created a power vacuum in North India in the period 1761-1790. It was this vacuum that was filled up by the rising British power.

The Sikhs meanwhile united under the leadership of Maharaja Ranjit Singh and carried on the unfinished task of the Marathas. The Sikh general Jussa Singh Ahluwalia invaded Abdali's kingdom, defeated Abdali ignominiously and captured his capital city of Kabul. The saffron flag (Nishan Saheb) then fluttered over Kabul after a gap of 800 years after Raja Jaya Pal Shahi lost the city to Sabuktagin in 980 C.E.

***

Mahadji Shinde was the most successful Maratha General of the post-Panipat phase. He not only overcame the Rohillas under Najib Khan and the Nawab of Oudh, but even the Mughal Emperor became a pensioner of Mahadji and received an annual pension from him. Mahadji collected Chauth from all over North India in the period 1761 to 1790. He even checkmated the British who had to concede dominion over north India to him under the Treaty of Salbai.

Meanwhile in India proper, in the period between 1761 and 1790, the Maratha power was consolidated by Mahadji Shinde, Nana Phadnavis and Shrimant Madhav Rao Peshwa. Mahadji Shinde took initiative in military matters and he successfully checked the British in the first Anglo-Maratha war. Later of course, the Marathas were to succcumb to the British in after the third Anglo-Maratha war of 1817.
Macaulay entered india in 1834.

So britishers actually fought and subdued Maratha HINDUS - repeat the HINDUS and not the Islamist mughals - who till 1817 were getting pension from Hindu Marathas!

Macaulites did nothing but to surrender their everything to white skins

***

Now if you ask why maratha/hindus have to succumb, and why they could not reach beyond certain level, the fund and backup was a plenty for Mughals from large Middle east islamic countries, and the ever increasing looted wealth in queens' treasury.

MARATHAS HAD TO RELY ON SCANT RESOURCES AVAILABLE IN ALREADY POOR INDIA. IN SPITE OF ALL ODD MARATHAS AND SIKHS DID THEIR BEST. THE BEST.


Hari Aum!
Last edited by Murugan on 30 Nov 2007 15:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Murugan »

Actually it is ONLY the Macaulay in India that held Islamism at bay. Remove that and we have a fully Islamic nation because Hindus minus Macaulay are nothing.
The above statment is entirely false and misleading, insulting to non-macaulites hindus in light of the historical facts, few of them are stated above.
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Post by Murugan »

Nobody needs to believe this. But it reflects the truth nevertheless. India successfully removed the Macaulayite layer of British rule and created slightly Islamic nation, with rabidly Islamist neighbors who are trying to worm their way back in.

And not a chirp from the vast majority of Indians. certainly not from the priests and holy Hindu men of India. Surprise surprise? Is it the old Hindu "lack of rebellion" again. An eternal race. A race of eternal subjugation with no aim other than release of bodily self into eternity.

As an after thought:

Even today the most patriotic Hindus attack the Macaulay in India as if that were shameful.
such thoughts expressed here only reveals self-hating macaulite-hindu(sic) mindset.

Entirely misleading, unnecessary and devoid of facts. Need a lesson on Maratha Empire and Aftermath.

Hundred and odd years of gap between pension receiving (that too from hindus) weak islamist mughal kings were destroyed and entry of white bufoons in Indian politics was a powerful Hindu Rebellion that too in a very unfavourable socio-economic condition.
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Post by Murugan »

Before Macaulay converts the population, in the later half of 19th century two great Hindus

1) Swamy Vivekananda
2) Bal Ganga Dhar Tilak

started a new revolution.

Who the heck says Hindus dont rebel.

They can create a revolution.

Both brought in new direction and understanding amongst Hindus.


***

Macaulay left in 1837, stayed in India for 4 years only.
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Post by shiv »

With respect Muruganji, if Hindus were so great how come India now behaves like an Islamic state?

3 or 4 heros in 1000 years is hardly enough when we now have 850 million dhimmis.

The problem is that all we do is tom tom the greatness of those 3 or 4 heros and we ignore the fact that India is now an Islamic state.

This is exactly like my post in the last Islamism thread of Indians learning to ignore an area where people crap and piss as if it does not exist. You too are sadly ignoring reality while singing paeans and going into denial that all those temporary victories have not failed to keep us dhimmified.

See what I wrote about denial. Write something sufficiently egregious and naturally people go into denial. But tell me - are you denying that your India behaves pretty much like an Islamic state?
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Re: Muslim extremism in India

Post by Sanku »

shiv wrote:
Good interview. Tells it like it is. Some concepts go beyond BRF - esp use of elite which is an interesting thought.
Use of elite? I did not understand; what in the interview do you refer to?
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Re: Muslim extremism in India

Post by MuthuswamyM »

shiv wrote:Congrats and welcome back. You were possibly too early for your time in your earlier avatar.
I hope I am not getting too ahead again!

My book gives a never before seen view of jihad India. It does so in the overall context of the war on terror.

I suppose, I am saying something most here probably agree with: Indian democracy has become too dysfunctional in many ways.

Unless an able and strong leader such as Modi comes to power in Delhi, India will continue to lose ground to Islamists.

Most non-Muslim Indians are justifiably afraid of political Islam and its followers, but are too disorganized to mount a credible challenge. This creates an opportunity for an outside force, such as the United States, to help moblize them to take on this existential threat for a win-win situation.

This is a possible new avenue for future Indo-US strategic "cooperation".
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Re: Muslim extremism in India

Post by shiv »

Sanku wrote:
shiv wrote:
Good interview. Tells it like it is. Some concepts go beyond BRF - esp use of elite which is an interesting thought.
Use of elite? I did not understand; what in the interview do you refer to?
It turns out that the word used was not "elite" but "educated"
We must use a fundamentally different approach: using science-based arguments to help liberate educated Muslims so that they are empowered to neutralize political Islamic movement from within
Apart from that there are a few gems in the piece:
Statement:Grievances drive Muslim populations into anger and towards terror.

Rebuttal: No, most grievances are manufactured to channel Muslim energies towards jihad.
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Re: Muslim extremism in India

Post by shiv »

MuthuswamyM wrote: I hope I am not getting too ahead again!
Yes it could happen. You were pretty radical - so please watch what you say with an eye on "digestability in ideas" which is as important as ability in ideas.
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Post by shiv »

I love rhetoric and believe myself to be fairly capable of using it myself.

Statements like "You are insulting Shivaji" etc are plain balderdash.

The biggest insult to Shivaji today is that we allow people (mostly Hindus) to be killed time and time and time again by people who kill in the name of Islam and the people of India are not willing to admit it and say it like it is and say that Islam is the problem. When some other joker from some other nation dares to insult Islam we prissy proper Indians get all upset and make a huge hue and cry. We were the first to ban Rushdie's Satanic Verses. We are always right up there in front defending Islam and Muslims while more and more and more Indians get killed in terrorist action by islamic warriors. Which misguided moron wants to call me an insulter of Shivaji for saying that out loud?

Of course it is an insult to Shivaji that what he fought for has been frittered away by a nation of slave-memes who use his name on one side while they pretend that this nation is not subservient and scared of radical Islam.

Talk about denial. Bah! Someone wake me up when the caliphate comes up so I can convert and reap whatever I gain from that.
Last edited by shiv on 30 Nov 2007 18:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Muslim extremism in India

Post by abhischekcc »

MuthuswamyM wrote:This is a possible new avenue for future Indo-US strategic "cooperation".
What makes you think that this is not already part of the reason why the US is so desparate to get the nuke deal? :wink:

Remember when Henry 'The Terrible' Kissinger came to India, he made an off the cuff remark that 'India is part of the Islamic world'. Perhaps it was not so off the cuff after all.

Perhaps what the Americans are trying to do is wean India away from the economic (read energy) dependancy on Islamic world, and give us the weapons to fight such wars. Make Islam fight on two fronts - so to speak.
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Post by Rye »

From the article by Moorthy Muthuswamy:
If America could help deliver a fatal blow to the former Soviet Union by backing Muslim nations against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, why not back cornered Indians to fight political Islam and its sponsoring nations? Unlike a resurgent political Islamic movement, which has turned its guns on its former benefactor America, a resurgent India already sharing secular and democratic mode of governing is no threat to the Western civilization.
America is not going to abandon its geopolitical imperatives in the region to "back the cornered Indians"....the cornered Indians will have to uncorner themselves on their own using democratic means.
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Post by abhischekcc »

Rye wrote:America is not going to abandon its geopolitical imperatives in the region to "back the cornered Indians"....the cornered Indians will have to uncorner themselves on their own using democratic means.
Sorry to nitpick - but democracy works when all parties agree to abide by certain rules - of mutual respect, and not crossing certain ethical boundaries.

The fight against Islam is patently NOT fought by using rules of mutual respect, and therefore, by extension - the fight against Islam must be undemocratic.
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Post by SSridhar »

abhischekcc wrote:The fight against Islam is patently NOT fought by using rules of mutual respect, and therefore, by extension - the fight against Islam must be undemocratic.
Absolutely true. No respect for any rule or decency here. In order to launch such an offensive, we Indians have to get ourselves out of spots where we have locked ourselves in through the democratic process. Everything should be democratic, you see.
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Re: Muslim extremism in India

Post by MuthuswamyM »

abhischekcc wrote: What makes you think that this is not already part of the reason why the US is so desparate to get the nuke deal? :wink:

Remember when Henry 'The Terrible' Kissinger came to India, he made an off the cuff remark that 'India is part of the Islamic world'. Perhaps it was not so off the cuff after all.

Perhaps what the Americans are trying to do is wean India away from the economic (read energy) dependancy on Islamic world, and give us the weapons to fight such wars. Make Islam fight on two fronts - so to speak.
I don't think many American strategists have thought deeply about how they could "use" India. If you read the piece by Secretary Burns in Foreign Affairs, it is usual, conventional thinking.
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Post by abhischekcc »

MuthuswamyM,

Burns is a very junior player compared to HK. I doubt he will be privy to 'high level' strategy, or would reveal it in an interview if he knew.
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Post by MuthuswamyM »

Rye wrote:
America is not going to abandon its geopolitical imperatives in the region to "back the cornered Indians"....the cornered Indians will have to uncorner themselves on their own using democratic means.
America needs India as much as India needs America. The extent of jihadi infiltration into Indian polity and the terror infrastructure inside has become such that, given the faultlines and with a dysfunctional democracy, India is likely doomed without a helping hand from outside.

Not all is lost, however.

Political Islam is, by far, America's greatest geopolitical, financial and civilizational threat.

America has little or no leverage over Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. But without neutralizing the powerful political Islamic movements there, America will bleed down from a great power status. India can give that leverage and more.
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Post by Rye »

MuthuswamyM wrote:
America needs India as much India needs it. The extent of jihadi infiltration into Indian polity and the terror infrastructure inside has become such that, given the faultlines and with a dysfunctional democracy, India is likely doomed without a helping hand from outside.
I am don't believe this is true. i.e., a doom-doom-doom scenario for India.

The faultlines are being created and magnified by the political class, not by the islamists -- it is the political class that constantly raises caste quotas and religious quotas, especially the "Secular" Indian parties like CPI(M) and Congress. India does not need an outside hand to fix this.

Political Islam is, by far, America's greatest geopolitical, financial and civilizational threat.
That is an exagerration. CAIR and various American Islamic orgs are already on a watch and the Saudis have been forced to change their hateful madrassa syllabus in the US. The US does not care as long as the jihadis are busy killing people from India or some other place far away from its borders.
America has little or no leverage over Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. But without neutralizing the powerful political Islamic movements there, America will bleed down from a great power status.
All actions of the US SD indicate that the US is drawing itself closer to the KSA, not further -- this is the truth. Saudi royals have a lot of willing lackeys in the USA govt. who owe their retirement plan to the Saudis.

If the USA has no leverage over Pakistan today, perhaps you explain how Kiyani was chosen purely because he has american friends and was trained in America. The Pakistani Army still control 1/2 of pakistan, and has the complete support of the US govt., including in the paki army agenda of bringing Jihad to Kashmir.
India can give that leverage and more.
India does not have give diddley to the US unless India has something significant to gain out of that collaboration. If islamists are going to kill more americans, Indians will just have to consider that karma payback for directing jihad in India since 1988. No need to spill any tears for the yanks who directed pakistani jihad towards India for decades.
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Post by shiv »

SSridhar wrote:
abhischekcc wrote:The fight against Islam is patently NOT fought by using rules of mutual respect, and therefore, by extension - the fight against Islam must be undemocratic.
Absolutely true. No respect for any rule or decency here. In order to launch such an offensive, we Indians have to get ourselves out of spots where we have locked ourselves in through the democratic process. Everything should be democratic, you see.
I have personally resolved that I will not oppose democratic means, but I will support and argue in favor of people who have already used the same undemocratic means as Islam espouses and are being blamed while Islamist's undemocratic means go unquestioned.

If it is fair for one side to be undemocratic, do not blame the other side for being undemocratic. Let every side simultaneously come under democracy.

Let me say where I will start.

If, as suggested by this Islamic political poster , bomb blasts by islamic terrorists are to be expected after anti-Muslim riots, surely is is just and fair to expect anti-Muslim riots after bomb blasts.

Using the same argument, it is easy to say that it was perfectly fair and just under the Islamic principle of retribution that several hundred or thousand Muslims were killed in Gujarat after some Hindu pilgrims were killed by Islamists in Godhra.

Since india is a partly Islamic state where Islamic laws apply, why should Hindus excude themselves from using Quranic sanction for tit for tat retribution?
Last edited by shiv on 30 Nov 2007 18:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by indygill »

With respect Muruganji, if Hindus were so great how come India now behaves like an Islamic state?
Lets see some more conversation between Bhao and Suraj Mal and maybe we can understand why

“You profess to be a Hindu; but how is that you have kept this mosque standing so long?â€
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Post by abhischekcc »

MuthuswamyM,

One thing that I want to ask is why do you distiguish between political Islam and Islam as a religion?

Any muslim would say that in Islam, the spiritual and the temporal are insepearable. So, by saying that only political Islam is a problem, is that not limiting the definition of the enemy? Why not declare openly that Islam itself is the enemy?
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Post by shiv »

abhischekcc wrote:MuthuswamyM,

One thing that I want to ask is why do you distiguish between political Islam and Islam as a religion?

Any muslim would say that in Islam, the spiritual and the temporal are insepearable. So, by saying that only political Islam is a problem, is that not limiting the definition of the enemy? Why not declare openly that Islam itself is the enemy?
Well he does say this:
Islamic trilogy, consisting of the Koran, Hadith and Sira, is the basis of political Islam. In the past few years sophisticated scientific analysis of the trilogy has been carried out. The Center for Study of Political Islam has published a series along these lines. Their analysis points to a very dominant political nature of the trilogy – i.e. domination of political deeds of Islam’s founder Mohammed – as opposed to spirituality. Hence it is very reasonable to conclude that political Islam is almost Islam.

In the context of the trilogy, inner political Islam prevents Muslims from acquiring new knowledge to create a better future for themselves; external political Islam commands them to wage a religious war (called jihad) with unbelievers until the whole humanity is converted to Islam.

Trilogy-based evidence and early Islamic history suggest that political Islam’s intent on absolute control of Muslim masses and channeling of their energies toward conquest gives an impression of an ideology that is primarily designed for extending the powerbase of Mohammed during his times and that of extended tribes of Saudis, non-Saudi Arab Muslims and non-Arab Muslims (in that order) subsequent to his death.
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Post by abhischekcc »

MuthuswamyM,

If you live in Delhi, then perhaps you could come to the BR meet on Saturday. Would love to meet you. :)


------------
Since india is a partly Islamic state where Islamic laws apply, why should Hindus excude themselves from using Quranic sanction for tit for tat retribution?
The expereicne of Hindu soceity shows that Islam responds with kindness only when treated with unkindness. The opposite is also true.
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Post by MuthuswamyM »

Rye wrote: The faultlines are being created and magnified by the political class, not by the islamists -- it is the political class that constantly raises caste quotas and religious quotas, especially the "Secular" Indian parties like CPI(M) and Congress. India does not need an outside hand to fix this.
I think you need to ask yourself why the political class is giving quotas unfairly to minorities at the expense of majority. The point is, the Indian islamists are extremely well-positioned to take advantage of the faultlines.

I suggest you read the portion in my book titled "Siege of India". It details some interesting perspectives on Sachar Committee and its report. This report and its implementations are among the most important steps on advancing jihadist agenda in India.

Bottom line is, instead of gearing upto confront the escalating jihadist threat, India is increasing allowing itself to be subjugated by Islamic forces. This is the reality!

But you are claiming that somehow (?) India can fix this problm by itself!
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Post by surinder »

Pulikeshi wrote:Of all the civilizations ravaged by Islam guess which one survived?
Pulikeshi,
You intend your question as a rhetorical question. Your implied answer is Hinduism/India. But I am sorry to burst your bubble, and also that of many others on this forum, many other faiths and many other societies and many other countries survived. Not just survived, but truimphed. Spain was a 200% Muslim country for 500 years. Spanish recovered that land and denuded it of Islam. Much better than us. Budhists of SE Asea, Tibet withstood islam and its allure. Turks were at the gates of Vienna, they lost there. Europe is much nearer to Arabia than India is, most of it never converted. Islam lost its war with China, never to make a foothold there. The Jews survived Islam and have truimphed. They have taken away the 2nd holiest site of Islam (Jerusalem). If we bore so much brunt of Islam, can you imagine being Jewish in Arabia at the time of the Prophet (PBUH)? Their settlements in Middle east places like Iran, Iraq, Africa, Egypt & Palestine survive & flourish still. Compare that to Hindus/India---we lost Lahore, the pre-historic city of Hindus established by Lord Rama's son Luv (and also Kasur, which was established by Kush). Very recently that is, in our living memory.

Shiv is right. There is a huge element of denial in our thinking. We are too easy to congragulate ourselves. I myself thought Shiv is crazy when said India is Islamic. I was offended. When I read his list, I had to admit he right. He is more right than he realizes. I added more points and presto we have a full-fledged Islamic Republic of India. Just the way it was for 800 years.
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Re: Muslim extremism in India

Post by surinder »

MuthuswamyM wrote:Jihad in India: An Interview with Moorthy Muthuswamy

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Re ... 6C4F6C8D7B
I did not realize that the poster himself was the author. First and foremost, my deepest thanks for writing this book. I note that you are a Nuclear Physicts, so that is doubly creditable. You are saying truths that are difficult for anyone to say in public. My congragulations. How did you find the time/energy to write a book on a topic that is so far away from your area of expertise?

Surinder
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Post by Murugan »

I love rhetoric and believe myself to be fairly capable of using it myself.

Statements like "You are insulting Shivaji" etc are plain balderdash.

The biggest insult to Shivaji today is that we allow people (mostly Hindus) to be killed time and time and time again by people who kill in the name of Islam and the people of India are not willing to admit it and say it like it is and say that Islam is the problem. When some other joker from some other nation dares to insult Islam we prissy proper Indians get all upset and make a huge hue and cry. We were the first to ban Rushdie's Satanic Verses. We are always right up there in front defending Islam and Muslims while more and more and more Indians get killed in terrorist action by islamic warriors. Which misguided moron wants to call me an insulter of Shivaji for saying that out loud?

Of course it is an insult to Shivaji that what he fought for has been frittered away by a nation of slave-memes who use his name on one side while they pretend that this nation is not subservient and scared of radical Islam.

Talk about denial. Bah! Someone wake me up when the caliphate comes up so I can convert and reap whatever I gain from that.
Good Piskological Retort After Giving False Credit to Macaulites for Rooting Out Islamist From India.

Instead of giving the credits to the rightful Marathas and other Hindus.

Waah waah!
Last edited by Murugan on 30 Nov 2007 19:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by MuthuswamyM »

abhischekcc wrote:MuthuswamyM,

One thing that I want to ask is why do you distiguish between political Islam and Islam as a religion?

Any muslim would say that in Islam, the spiritual and the temporal are insepearable. So, by saying that only political Islam is a problem, is that not limiting the definition of the enemy? Why not declare openly that Islam itself is the enemy?
I did say that political Islam is almost Islam 8)

I wanted to highlight the fact that we ae dealing with a conquest (political) oriented ideology that pays lip-service to spirituality. Once you start identifying it in this manner, its power centers are open to ideological, political and military assault.

By the way, I live in America (actually, lived more time in America than in India).
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Post by surinder »

MuthuswamyM wrote:Not all is lost, however.

Political Islam is, by far, America's greatest geopolitical, financial and civilizational threat.

America has little or no leverage over Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. But without neutralizing the powerful political Islamic movements there, America will bleed down from a great power status. India can give that leverage and more.
How do you rationalize with USA giving arms of abot $11 Billion dollars that have neutralized (or nearly so) the Indian edge over Pakistan? Surely this is not that action of a nation that feels its civilization is in danger from Pakistan and it needs India.

Let me say it out loud: Americans have not learnt the ABC of Islamic threat. They think it is still part of the regular real-politik that goes on. They think a taking down A'stan and I'raq will take away direct threat to the American mainland ... and that is all they want in the global war on terror. They want to go back to the pre-9/11 state where terrorism existed, but never touched the mainland. I am sorry, I don't see that mindset changing.
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Post by Murugan »

Not just survived, but truimphed. Spain was a 200% Muslim country for 500 years. Spanish recovered that land and denuded it of Islam.
And Chickend out when 200 were sent to Heaven!

Israel and other europeon countries are having backing of uncle. Here everyone is against us! One fine day unkil sent its seventh fleet to save H&D of the great islamic country... we were corenered.

***
Americans have not learnt the ABC of Islamic threat.
Absolutely right. Nor they are gonna learn, ever!
Last edited by Murugan on 30 Nov 2007 19:32, edited 1 time in total.
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