The IAF History Thread

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 21 Dec 2007 22:41

This is a part of a set of combat cine-frames for an Israeli combat victory over an United Arab AF MIG-21F.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 21 Dec 2007 22:50

This is North-vietnamese MIG-21 caught on camera during air combat with the USAF. Nobody knows how this photograph was taken, since it is from directly above!!

It is possible, (personal guess here) that it was caught on the Reconnaissance optics of a USAF aircraft as it attempted to dodge the intercepting NVAF MIG-21s.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 21 Dec 2007 22:55

and this is the best image of them all. it shows a sidewinder missile (left side of photograph) heading towards the exhaust of a MIG-21

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 21 Dec 2007 22:57

Also, posting some of the other indian MIG-21 shots I found.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 21 Dec 2007 23:01

Indian MIG-21s at the flightline...

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 21 Dec 2007 23:04

Of course, not all the photos were Black and white...

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 21 Dec 2007 23:16

On a side note, Jagan, I found some very interesting data as well on the F-86. It had a section where its use in the Pakistani AF was discussed and had a detailed sub-section (around 12 odd pages) on the F-86 in combat with the IAF in both the 65 and 71 wars. At this point I am not sure how to show you those pages or whether you need to see them at all. Do advise.

for the time being, I am posting an image that was in your 65 book as well. This author claims that these are in the correct order. You may want to check whether it is true or not. Looks OK to me though...

If I recall correctly, this was shown in that IAF documentary "Salt of the Earth". At that time, the Sabre was indeed seen to have been hit once where it showed a massive explosion that vanished completely before another explosion gripped the aircraft and it tipped over after that and did not recover. If that is correct, then these images tally. What is your opinion?

Abhi K Rao · Post by **Abhi K Rao** » 25 Dec 2007 01:37

Awesome pics vivek-

There are some good photographs of the cockpit and of IAF Mig-21s in Yefim Gordon's book. I was wondering if you guys could use any of these pics but they are probably copyrighted to other sources. Some of the pics:

1.The first HAL built type 77FL in 1966 (Russian Aviation Research Trust)

2. The first Mig-21M from HAL with four APU-13 rails (Russian Aviation Research Trust)

3. Final Assembly of Type 75 Mig-21bis fighters at the Nasik plant (HAL)

4.Mig-21US cockpits front + Rear (Yefim Gordon archive)

5. Servicing an IAF type 77 (Yefim Gordon archive)

6. Three Type 77 Mig-21FL interceptors and two Type 66-400 trainers of the IAF. SRO-2 IFF is not fitted (Russian Aviation Research Trust)

7. Remarkable combat cine frame taken by an Israeli Mirage IIICJ showing strikes on an Egyptian Mig-21MF despite the 90 degree deflection shot ( Yefim Gordon)

8. The unmistakable profile of a Mig-21 caught in the graticules of a HUD weapons sight. (RU aviation research trust)

Indian MIG-21s at the flightline..

This picture also appears to be the same as the 'Three type 77 Mig-21FL interceptors' The image in the book has a pair of Type-66-400 trainers in the foreground. If you guys want, I can post these pics as well.

-Abhi

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 25 Dec 2007 04:46

vivek_ahuja wrote:On a side note, Jagan, I found some very interesting data as well on the F-86. It had a section where its use in the Pakistani AF was discussed and had a detailed sub-section (around 12 odd pages) on the F-86 in combat with the IAF in both the 65 and 71 wars. At this point I am not sure how to show you those pages or whether you need to see them at all. Do advise.

for the time being, I am posting an image that was in your 65 book as well. This author claims that these are in the correct order. You may want to check whether it is true or not. Looks OK to me though...

If I recall correctly, this was shown in that IAF documentary "Salt of the Earth". At that time, the Sabre was indeed seen to have been hit once where it showed a massive explosion that vanished completely before another explosion gripped the aircraft and it tipped over after that and did not recover. If that is correct, then these images tally. What is your opinion?

Hi Vivek, I am assuming the book is Robert Jackson's Sabre? I have that one - thanks. Jackson based his sabre chapter on John Frickers (Battle for pakistan) and Pushpindar Singhs (various articles). You might find his books on Hunter and Canberra Operational history of some interest as well.

The Gun Camera shot is ofcourse the same one that you see in Salt of the Earth - the sequence is from the top row left to right and so on. So your assumption on it is correct.

The Sabre is Fg Offr Yunus Khan's over Halwara , shot down by Fg Off V K Neb on Sept 6th.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 25 Dec 2007 06:14

Abhi K Rao wrote:Awesome pics vivek-

1.The first HAL built type 77FL in 1966 (Russian Aviation Research Trust)

2. The first Mig-21M from HAL with four APU-13 rails (Russian Aviation Research Trust)

3. Final Assembly of Type 75 Mig-21bis fighters at the Nasik plant (HAL)

6. Three Type 77 Mig-21FL interceptors and two Type 66-400 trainers of the IAF. SRO-2 IFF is not fitted (Russian Aviation Research Trust)

Hi Abhi, just took a look at the book and I am sure even though the above are credited to the Russian Av Research Trust, all of the above are either IAF or HAL originated pics. The pic of the MiG-21F-13 (the only ones we keep seeing everywhere) is also IAF.

Abhi K Rao · Post by **Abhi K Rao** » 25 Dec 2007 06:44

Hi Jagan,

Thanks for clarifying that. I am sure you have already got it covered but let me know if you need any of the above mentioned pictures just in case.

-Abhi

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 26 Dec 2007 02:50

I am sure even though the above are credited to the Russian Av Research Trust, all of the above are either IAF or HAL originated pics. The pic of the MiG-21F-13 (the only ones we keep seeing everywhere) is also IAF.

Jagan,

I found this statement very interesting. Many of the photographs I have posted here and many those still with me are those that were released by the IAF PR office decades ago. In most cases whichever book uses the photographs has this stated below the photograph.

However, does that mean that we can use these photographs on BR, or will they still have to be routed through the author for the book. I say this because I found many rare shots of indian aircrafts in old musty books which are literally decades old. I am not sure on this copyright issue. can you illuminate further?

You might find his books on Hunter and Canberra Operational history of some interest as well.

Ah, I kind of suspected that you had seen that Sabre book before.

Actually, I did in fact find his book on the Hunter. Very interesting stuff. Wasn't able to find the Canberra book though...

Quote:
Indian MIG-21s at the flightline..

This picture also appears to be the same as the 'Three type 77 Mig-21FL interceptors' The image in the book has a pair of Type-66-400 trainers in the foreground. If you guys want, I can post these pics as well.

-Abhi

I guess even if the image cannot be used officially, we can still see it, right?

Jagan, can you suggest the course of action in such situations?

Abhi K Rao · Post by **Abhi K Rao** » 26 Dec 2007 03:40

I guess even if the image cannot be used officially, we can still see it, right?

Of course vivek! No matter if the pics are going to be used or not. We all appreciate the time and effort you have taken to share rare vintage photographs-

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 26 Dec 2007 04:03

Quote:
I guess even if the image cannot be used officially, we can still see it, right?

Of course vivek! No matter if the pics are going to be used or not. We all appreciate the time and effort you have taken to share rare vintage photographs-

Thanks

but, I was talking about your Pics!:)
I was hoping that you would put up the Pics you mentioned you had with you (the ones you said you had seen in a book or something)

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 26 Dec 2007 04:21

Actually guys, I think it is fair game to use photos that have been officially provided by the IAF. The photos that are offlimits would be those that were taken by visiting journalists - but many of the photos - like the MiG-21 Type 74s in Flight are actually the property of the IAF , and in many cases were released by the MoD for publication with magazines and newspapers of that era.

Take the Neb Gun Camera shots photo - who holds the copyright other than the Indian MOD? but you will find it in a dozen or even more books. If not one, I am sure we can source that image from another place. The reason is that many of the war time photos and the ones from 60s and 70s were official MoD or the PRO releases. Those photographs are in many cases fair game. A whole majority of pictures from my book were PRO/MoD released.

But there are cases - like the MiG-21 , or the Marut, or the Gnat articles from Air Enthusiast - I believe many of the photos were taken by Pushpindar singh on official visits and they would actually be HIS copyright, images like those would be offlimits. I also remember a series of articles that appeared in FLIGHT in the mid 60s where the pictures were taken by the author of the article and not provided by the IAF or the MoD - those would be offlimits as well.

The Operational Series books by Robert Jackson consist of a mix of images from the IAF / MOD / PRO as well as several pre-delivery images released by BAe , or the UK MoD. so the former are OK, the latter are not

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 26 Dec 2007 04:36

OK, this confirms what I was thinking. Thanks Jagan.

This also gives us a good opportunity. Many of the Pics that I posted are in fact IAF issued ones. So this means that we could use them for the BR website.

Jagan, would you be interested in those of the above photos that qualify as 'IAF PRO released' for the BR MIG-21 page? If so, I can send them to you within the next couple of days.

also, regarding those Pics that are not IAF released, can we post the images on this thread here but not use them officially on BR? In other words, can I continue posting what I find?

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 26 Dec 2007 04:47

Vivek

IAF/PRO/MOD should be okay for the BR site - email them to me and I will put them in the MiG-21 gallery as well.

Rest, I would not ask for them.

Infact there are a number of images on BR whose provenance i am not sure of. I will be removing them over the course of time.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 26 Dec 2007 05:10

OK Jagan, point taken.

I will send you the official Pics within a day or two (as soon as I can scan them properly). Also, I have those other Pics from my personal collection that I had planned to send you a long time back (Sorry about the delay) which I will send to you.

Also, something that might interest you:

It turns out that in the late 1970s and early 1980s there were a series of weather experiments by NASA over the Arabian sea and over the Indian sub-continent (the Ganges river area). the program was called MONEX (Monsoon weather experiments)

There seems to have been a lot of aircrafts involved. most of them were NASA aircrafts modified for airborne collection of experimental data. at least one of these aircrafts was a Super-Connie. there was Indian participation as well. Others included modified B-707s and so on.

From our side, the National Remote Sensing Agency (NRSA) was involved with a few of their aircrafts as well. at least one of these was a modified IAF HS-748. the NRSA is now absorbed into ISRO. They still maintain a small fleet of aircrafts but the main work is done by satellites now. nevertheless, their website does not include any details of this important and long part of their history.

Now, while searching through some personal stuff, I found a whole brochure from this program that was given to all the Indian participants. there was also a certificate saying that my father was deputed to fly with the American crews on board their Super-connie and that he successfully achieved one of their flight navigation system qualifications.

Anyway, I found out from the NASA Ames Research Centre some details of the program and the Indian involvement in it. It was a civilian project, so there is no secrecy involved. In fact, the actual papers can even be bought from the official websites.

It involves some very interesting stuff, especially the IAF involvement.

What I want to know is whether you would be interested in adding that on the BR website somewhere?

Abhi K Rao · Post by **Abhi K Rao** » 26 Dec 2007 05:22

Thanks

but, I was talking about your Pics!Smile
I was hoping that you would put up the Pics you mentioned you had with you (the ones you said you had seen in a book or something)

NP Vivek. I am about to leave for Fort Knox right now. I shall post the Mig-21 pics 2m. The book is the Mig-21 technical volume by Yefim Gordon. If you ever have a chance I would recommend reading it. You will def enjoy the photos and technical analysis.

-Abhi

Abhi K Rao · Post by **Abhi K Rao** » 26 Dec 2007 23:59

Vivek here are the Mig-21 pics that I said I would post:

First HAL built Type 77 Mig-21FL in 1966:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=NH7SIOHO

First Mig-21M from HAL with 4 APU rails:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=TQTZGAXS

Final Assembly of type 75 Mig-21bis @ Nasik:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=BV0T4183

Servicing an IAF type 77:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=0UIMBFMF

3 Type 77 Mig-21FL interceptors and two type 66-400 trainers of the IAF:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=PFI9FLG0

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 27 Dec 2007 00:08

Sir,

you might want to visit the first page of the Miscellaneous Pics thread.

a) Click on the image-shack link there and it will directly take you to the upload page.

b) Upload the image and then select the link provided for the Pic.

c) Then, when you make a post, copy and paste that link in your writing area for the post and then select the entire link.

d) Click the 'Img' button in the list of buttons above your writing area.

e) Click 'Preview' to see that the image is being shown and then click post.

That is how I have been doing it. I guess the main idea is to get a link for the image and then follow steps 'c' to 'e'. if you have some other account on some other site, it should work there as well, I guess.

Abhi K Rao · Post by **Abhi K Rao** » 27 Dec 2007 00:11

Vivek,

thanks for the reply. I just figured out the problem. The image shack registration link was caught in my spam filter but there should be no problems in the future. Will follow steps a-e in future posts!

-Abhi

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 27 Dec 2007 01:29

Abhi,

Very nice photographs. Some of them are here in BR's gallery, I think.

Anyway, some of the Pics you have given are available in colour in the HAL's heritage centre in Bangalore. If you ever go to Bangalore, do visit the place. it is very close to the main airport. There is also a static display of HAL aircraft there as well as a very nice pictorial display of every decade that HAL was worked in.

-Vivek

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 27 Dec 2007 02:01

Great Pics Abhi.

Seeing that HAL Type 77 pic (C589) reminds me - do you guys notice the early style IAF markings of that time? (the IAF roundel is on the rear fuselage). The style gradually changed to it being painted in the front under the cockpit (for better visibility - so clearly obvious in that photograph).

Also once someone pointed it to me that in the pic of T-77s being serviced, one of the aircraft closest to the camera is actually a Type76 - similar to the FL but with a shorter chord fin. Those were direct imports from the USSR.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 27 Dec 2007 02:27

Also once someone pointed it to me that in the pic of T-77s being serviced, one of the aircraft closest to the camera is actually a Type76 - similar to the FL but with a shorter chord fin. Those were direct imports from the USSR.

Incidentally, it is C529. The picture is incomplete and so you cannot see the inlet lip above which the serial is written. (although it was very small, took me some very high zoom to make out the number!) Also note that the one in the rear whose tail section can be made out is a Type-66 Trainer.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 27 Dec 2007 02:44

This is what i mentioned (note - not my work but someone else) - BC - serialled MiG photos are the holy grail

Abhi K Rao · Post by **Abhi K Rao** » 27 Dec 2007 03:09

Anyway, some of the Pics you have given are available in colour in the HAL's heritage centre in Bangalore. If you ever go to Bangalore, do visit the place. it is very close to the main airport. There is also a static display of HAL aircraft there as well as a very nice pictorial display of every decade that HAL was worked in.

Thanks Vivek. I have not been back to India in almost 3 years and I am dying to go back (hope fully next summer). I will spend the majority of my time in Hyderabad but will also visit relatives in Bangalore. I will def. check out HAL's heritage center. When I go to Hyderabad, my family friend is going to take me to the Artillery training center and the EME. As you can guess all future pictures will be posted on BR

Great Pics Abhi.

Seeing that HAL Type 77 pic (C589) reminds me - do you guys notice the early style IAF markings of that time? (the IAF roundel is on the rear fuselage). The style gradually changed to it being painted in the front under the cockpit (for better visibility - so clearly obvious in that photograph).

Also once someone pointed it to me that in the pic of T-77s being serviced, one of the aircraft closest to the camera is actually a Type76 - similar to the FL but with a shorter chord fin. Those were direct imports from the USSR.

Thx Jagan! Those are some interesting observations and notes. There is something so nostalgic about old IAF pics

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 27 Dec 2007 03:54

serialled MiG photos are the holy grail

Yeah, that's one of the things I learnt from your work. I guess it makes the job of correctly reporting history somewhat easier right?

By the way, Jagan, Please check your mail.

Thanks.

Abhi K Rao · Post by **Abhi K Rao** » 27 Dec 2007 08:07

Jagan,

There is a '?' on the Mig-21 section on G limit. From what I have heard, the airframe was designed for a max of 7Gs.

-Abhi

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 31 Dec 2007 14:59

Jagan Saar,

Here's a bunch of Pics to cheer up 2008 for you.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 31 Dec 2007 15:00

A No. 8 Squadron IAF Vengence being refuelled at a forward airstrip near the Imphal frontline

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 31 Dec 2007 15:07

the loading of 'cookies' for the Japanese.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 31 Dec 2007 15:13

A rain sodden airfield is the home of this IAF machine. (Vivek's note: Unknown whether its a 7 or 8 Sqn Machine.)

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 31 Dec 2007 15:16

Flying Officer Ibrahim and Sergeant Jagad, IAF, during the Battle of the Boxes during CAS sorties

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 31 Dec 2007 15:20

Admittedly not the darn best Pic, yet what makes it interesting is the line-up of IAF Harvards on the left...

Sree · Post by **Sree** » 31 Dec 2007 17:52

Vivek, very nice New Year gifts for Jagan ...

... Where are these last few from, if I may ask, especially the one of the Harvards - your personal collection?

Regards

Sree

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 01 Jan 2008 13:13

X-post

vivek_ahuja wrote:

A jump back to the late 1980s and the coup in the Maldives. The Image shows the Progress Light being straddled. The ship had been taken over by the fleeing rebels after the Islands had been subjected to a surprise and quick airborne assault by a Joint Task Force of the the IAF and the IA. The Indian Navy played its part and recovered control of the civilian ships captured by the rebels as they attempted to escape. The Progress Light was one of these ships.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 03 Jan 2008 04:17

Vivek, I see you are getting the hang of it

Whats the story / caption of the Harvard and Hurricanes picture?

Nice way to start 2008 on this thread.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 03 Jan 2008 05:33

Jagan wrote:Vivek, I see you are getting the hang of it

Thank you, saar.

Whats the story / caption of the Harvard and Hurricanes picture?

Well, I was reading through some stuff on the RAF hurricanes in the far eastern theater and came across the Pic. Apparently the Pic shows the Hurricanes of No. 1 Operational Training Unit, Peshawar, in 1943. But the Harvards were IAF machines.

There was also some stuff on the IAF Tac-R Hurricanes, especially the No. 9 Squadron (IAF) when it began to conduct operations from Silchar and Palel in March to June of 1944. I am trying at this time to see what is already available on BR and what can be added to it...

-Vivek

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 03 Jan 2008 05:40

This was another shot of the same lineup. To be quite honest I don't know what the guy with the camera was trying to catch, since he seems to have got half of both aircraft types and complete Pic of neither! Nevertheless, there are some good Serial Numbers for the IAF machines to be jotted down.