Arjun thread

[Sanku]

Agni and prithvi are not comprable to tanks. The missiles are fired once

do you know what happens if a nuclear missile fails mid way??

Do you know what are Arjun's being tested for? What will you compare next -- high altitude food from DRDO and LRTRs because they are from DRDO?

Give me a break and avoid making these one line posts with no content just loudly proclaiming a statement because you don't better.

[kvraghav]

Do you know what are Arjun's being tested for?

As far as i know arjun is tested for reliability and not for capability.and reliability holds for all products no matter what it is

[gopal.suri]

Funny , how the T-90 never had to clear any reliability tests!

OMG, do you really believe T-90 was purchased without reliability tests? There are even a video on YouTube about the tests in Rajasthan.

So the Belarus guys go to the French to get a TI, integrate it and sell it to the Indians via the Russians .. and that SOB fails in hot weather , making the thing entirely useless.

French TI was asked instead of Russian by Indian side after all tests and before purchase. It's the last thing, that was asked, and this moving was made by Indian side demand. So it's true, French TI was not over reliability tests before been purchased.

Also, when the torsion bar suspension broke in the T-90, why did the Army paint it as an "Arjun" failure via DDM ?

How the probability of this fault? We dont know. An isolated cause doesnt mean.

The Rajasthan trials occured because Indian Army was asked to by CAG. The Rajasthan trials were not successful, but, army noted that it will be rectified when it will be induced (it was not). Google for it, you will find it. Its a very documented fact.

[Sanku]

The Rajasthan trials occured because Indian Army was asked to by CAG. The Rajasthan trials were not successful, but, army noted that it will be rectified when it will be induced (it was not).

CAG asked army to do the trials? This is news to me. Can you please point a link to substantiate the claim? Honest question.

[SaiK]

(That is assuming we have a half decent govt)

If lefties and Italians (and chelas) don't make it up [= 1%].

regarding the other tons of arguments that doesn't jell.. only one thing I ask is this?

If Arjun is on equal terms with T90s, for exposing the weakness of these tanks, then so be done without any prejudice by IA. Let the shook-laws be silenced by not giving them the fish-feeds.

What if tomorrow Arjuns are MBTs [which GoI has to substantiate for tax payer's money], and IA don't want to expose its weaknesses., it would be too late for our shooklaws and their biradhers.

[Sanku]

Do you know what are Arjun's being tested for?

As far as i know arjun is tested for reliability and not for capability.and reliability holds for all products no matter what it is

And do you know what is the meaning of reliablity in context of tank and a missile? And how are they tested?

You are right of course -- everything should be reliable -- I assume a fifth grader knows that too -- on that logic we should compare testing pencils and their induction to testing tanks?

Take some time to know more please before jumping in -- silence is often a virtue.

[Sanku]

If Arjun is on equal terms with T90s, for exposing the weakness of these tanks, then so be done without any prejudice by IA. Let the shook-laws be silenced by not giving them the fish-feeds.

What if tomorrow Arjuns are MBTs [which GoI has to substantiate for tax payer's money], and IA don't want to expose its weaknesses., it would be too late for our shooklaws and their biradhers.

That is nearly impossible for Govt to do -- as long as their is funny money in the country paying off the DDM; truth will become lie and vice versa.

Much would change before that happens and Arjun will not even be a footnote in that saga.

[gopal.suri]

The Rajasthan trials occured because Indian Army was asked to by CAG. The Rajasthan trials were not successful, but, army noted that it will be rectified when it will be induced (it was not).

CAG asked army to do the trials? This is news to me. Can you please point a link to substantiate the claim? Honest question.

Search for yourself. You seem to be asking proof from everybody. Are you from police? Besides I did not address you, I was replying to Igorr.

[Sanku]

CAG asked army to do the trials? This is news to me. Can you please point a link to substantiate the claim? Honest question.

Search for yourself. You seem to be asking proof from everybody. Are you from police? Besides I did not address you, I was replying to Igorr.

So basically as usual you thought it right to shoot your mouth off before knowing the exact details. Is this forum a place for meaningful debate or can any tom dick and harry come and post whatever are his pet frustrations without having to justify the same?

[gopal.suri]

Search for yourself. You seem to be asking proof from everybody. Are you from police? Besides I did not address you, I was replying to Igorr.

So basically as usual you thought it right to shoot your mouth off before knowing the exact details. Is this forum a place for meaningful debate or can any tom dick and harry come and post whatever are his pet frustrations without having to justify the same?

If you do not know the basic of the T-90 deal, what are you debating about?

[kvraghav]

I assume a fifth grader knows that too -- on that logic we should compare testing pencils and their induction to testing tanks?

A fifth grader wouldnt buy a pencil if its not reliable and you dont understand that.reliability is defined in terms of wat product should do and under wat constrains.all know a tank is not a pencil.
And by the way i am no new guy here.reading BR since 3 years.couldnt join because i had only a public domain email id.

[Sanku]

If you do not know the basic of the T-90 deal, what are you debating about?

Look boss either put up or shut up. If its basics I am sure you can point me to a link.

Meanwhile

Induction of T-90 tanks okayed

Its a 2000 news report

Defence Minister George Fernandes has said the comparative anaylsis suggests that the Russian T-90 tanks was “superior to all known tanks in Pakistan’s armouryâ€

[Sanku]

I assume a fifth grader knows that too -- on that logic we should compare testing pencils and their induction to testing tanks?

A fifth grader wouldnt buy a pencil if its not reliable and you dont understand that.reliability is defined in terms of wat product should do and under wat constrains.all know a tank is not a pencil.
And by the way i am no new guy here.reading BR since 3 years.couldnt join because i had only a public domain email id.

And you still asked the question about DRDO == Arjun == Agni. That is some deep understanding man. I am an Idiot and cant talk with deep folks like you. I bow out sarry for trouble sar. Sarry that I ever opened my mouth.

[gopal.suri]

If you do not know the basic of the T-90 deal, what are you debating about?

Look boss either put up or shut up. If its basics I am sure you can point me to a link.

Meanwhile

Induction of T-90 tanks okayed

Its a 2000 news report

Defence Minister George Fernandes has said the comparative anaylsis suggests that the Russian T-90 tanks was “superior to all known tanks in Pakistan’s armouryâ€

[SaiK]

The equation per IA is

T90="BANG! for the buck"

I meant the noise onlee. a 1-1 with m1-latest version should be the silencer.

[kvraghav]

And you still asked the question about DRDO == Arjun == Agni. That is some deep understanding man. I am an Idiot and cant talk with deep folks like you. I bow out sarry for trouble sar. Sarry that I ever opened my mouth.

Thank you saar.you saved me the trouble.I forgot you were the person who advocated,
avaidi+t-90 = best
avaidi+Arjun = bad.

[Sanku]

You are very incompetent. You cant even use a search engine properly?

Gopal I know that you have neither manners nor the skill to recognize their absence -- I ask for a single thing can you post proof of you claim?

I am waiting -- meanwhile feel free to display your true character.

[Sanku]

And you still asked the question about DRDO == Arjun == Agni. That is some deep understanding man. I am an Idiot and cant talk with deep folks like you. I bow out sarry for trouble sar. Sarry that I ever opened my mouth.

Thank you saar.you saved me the trouble.I forgot you were the person who advocated,
avaidi+t-90 = best
avaidi+Arjun = bad.

Can you show exactly where? Or is this another of your deep understanding?

On second thought never mind -- I dont expect a honest answer from you.

[gopal.suri]

You are very incompetent. You cant even use a search engine properly?

Gopal I know that you have neither manners nor the skill to recognize their absence -- I ask for a single thing can you post proof of you claim?

I am waiting -- meanwhile feel free to display your true character.

So, you still cannot find it? Admit you are incompetent. Atleast others wil take a cue.

[kvraghav]

This is not my deep understanding.All deep things are left to you onlee.you were the person who told avaidi couldnt manufacture tanks in number.you remember that or i should give a link to your own post?

[gopal.suri]

This is not my deep understanding.All deep things are left to you onlee.you were the person who told avaidi couldnt manufacture tanks in number.you remember that or i should give a link to your own post?

You can understand why I reply to Sanku like I normally reply to him? There is no point giving him an answer. Its absolutely useless.

[JimmyJ]

After all what is said above, I went on a Googling to see what good may be there to tell about Arjun from the IA side. Ahh all I saw was problems.

So does it mean that there is nothing good in this tank.

Does it mean that any reports/opinions that is submitted by the army should be about "What is worse in product Arjun"?
Does it mean that none of the technology incorporated in Arjun was good enough?
Does it mean that all our engineers and scientist who worked had was incapable?

Its when I think about from these point about Arjun project that I doubt the IA intentions w.r.t Arjun project. If they are at least good enough to tell in open that they don't want Arjun and they want to scrap this project, we could use our technical resources currently in the Arjun project for other services atleast. But that the IA will never do. Why? Is'n it a kind of telling "I want it from you, but we are never going to help you, and we will squeeze you to get what we want exactly".

[kvraghav]

You can understand why I reply to Sanku like I normally reply to him? There is no point giving him an answere. Its absolutely useless.

will remember this.Thats why maulana nayakuddin stopped replying.

[Sanku]

This is not my deep understanding.All deep things are left to you onlee.you were the person who told avaidi couldnt manufacture tanks in number.you remember that or i should give a link to your own post?

look dont lie; you claimed I said

avadi+t90 == best.

can you show where I said that?

or even avadi+arjun == worst?

I will not tolerate you putting words in my mouth and generally take cheap pot shots by lying.

[Sanku]

After people have stopped preening themselves could they please post the proofs that was asked of them. If not at least have the decency to not derail it with further with irrelevant issues.

[d_berwal]

After all what is said above, I went on a Googling to see what good may be there to tell about Arjun from the IA side. Ahh all I saw was problems.

So does it mean that there is nothing good in this tank.

Does it mean that any reports/opinions that is submitted by the army should be about "What is worse in product Arjun"?
Does it mean that none of the technology incorporated in Arjun was good enough?
Does it mean that all our engineers and scientist who worked had was incapable?

Its when I think about from these point about Arjun project that I doubt the IA intentions w.r.t Arjun project. If they are at least good enough to tell in open that they don't want Arjun and they want to scrap this project, we could use our technical resources currently in the Arjun project for other services atleast. But that the IA will never do. Why? Is'n it a kind of telling "I want it from you, but we are never going to help you, and we will squeeze you to get what we want exactly".

ur thinking powers are great plus ur understanding of IA &DRDO and their projects run is unparallele to even DRDO

[gopal.suri]

After people have stopped preening themselves could they please post the proofs that was asked of them. If not at least have the decency to not derail it with further with irrelevant issues.

[kvraghav]

ok and wat did you exactly mean by telling avaidi cannot manufacture tanks in large numbers in context of arjun onlee or did you say generally avaidi cannot manufacture any tank in large numbers.i am waiting..
think about the meaning not the text.if the meaning is wrong then please clarify.no ones taking potshots here.

[Sanku]

ok and wat did you exactly mean by telling avaidi cannot manufacture tanks in large numbers in context of arjun onlee or did you say generally avaidi cannot manufacture any tank in large numbers.i am waiting..
think about the meaning not the text.if the meaning is wrong then please clarify.no ones taking potshots here.

I have absolutely no clue what you are talking of -- please do two things
1) Work on your comprehension skills
2) Dont make false posts attributing weird theories to me -- if you want to quote me; use the quote feature.

With respect to Avadi you will find I have already said my POV clearly I have nothing to add; if you cant go back and read and make sense please lets stop talking one on one.

Just dont attribute false statements to me.

[kvraghav]

Wake me up when Avadi actually makes enough tanks which can be used

ok could you tell me what did you mean by this exactly?

[Sanku]

Wake me up when Avadi actually makes enough tanks which can be used

ok could you tell me what did you mean by this exactly?

Excatly that -- the current rate of procduction for Avadi for both Arjun's and T 90 happen to be absymal (exact data quote before)

with T 90 the situation is ok because of
1) We get CBU from Russia
2) Avadi is mostly assembling knocked down units
3) T 90 made as per Russian philosphy is a easy to make rugged tank

now with Arjun those reasons are not true -- it is a complicated tank of "western" philosphy -- all of which has to be completely manufactured here -- you cant import.

Sort of like Ak 47 vs INSAS argument.

So unless Avadi is shaken up -- things look bad for Arjun rate of manufacture -- and not for anything to with IA.

[kvraghav]

Ok man sorry.You cant blame DRDO for quality.Avaidi should do it.Its like blaming DRDO for insas probs.I only said all these because look where we are.We are now importing 5.56mm ammo from singapore technologies.

[Jagan]

Sanku and gopal, Can you guys lay off each other. This is the second time the thread is turning into a private slugfest involving both of you.

My strong advice is that Please ignore the other's post and do not respond the next time.

Even stronger advice - Next guy to break the rule will get a time-off.

[d_berwal]

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=wirz ... #PPA149,M1

pls see page 149 onwards

India's Ad Hoc Arsenal: Direction Or Drift in Defence Policy?
The book is a must read for all fans of ARJUN and IA bashers

[Surya]

If the Army orders 600 Arjuns and needs it faster - other options could be pursued ie. private players, other PSUs.

Right now - no one trusts the Army's ability to nurture an indigenous project through.

[Igorr]

Hi Igorr,
One question please,i think russia has a rule that they cant buy foreign arms isint it???Sorry if this is off the topic.just always wanted to clarify this.

Not exactly. It's more close to India's rules: Army must first ask for home-made production, and if cannot - they are free to buy abroad. There are known many examples for foreign made production&components: Katherine TI for T-90A, Austrian mountain equipement for Mountain Brigades, chips for electronic equipement, displays, sniper rifles etc. All Russian helo engines are made in Ukraine, the part of missiles are from Belorussia, Ukraine. Many examples IMHO.

[kvraghav]

thanks igorr.That was the biggest doubt i had after brahmos issue.sorry to put it here.just was waiting for igorr.

[Sanku]

If the Army orders 600 Arjuns and needs it faster - other options could be pursued ie. private players, other PSUs.

Two things here
1) till the design is tested for reliability (there is a concept of design for reliability) it would not be prudent to order more. What if the AUTC show that there are reliability problems due to design deficiency? Some examples (illustrative) could be that a particular cog in the track has too much load; if it runs too fast too soon without time to cool it; it breaks down? The solution will be redesign of the cog but may have ramifications on the track design too.

2) There are no PSUs which can step in AFAIK and no private players; no one else has the experience -- I would rather pour more money into Avadi and set up a new line.

Right now - no one trusts the Army's ability to nurture an indigenous project through.

While no one claims that it is perfect the above is way to harsh a assessment. Given the huge list of DRDO supplied goods Army is happy to have (Pinaka; WLR; etc ) I dont think the above is true. INSAS alone is huge center piece now.

I think Army too realizes the value of indegnization and comfort with Indian products in much more different now than in the past -- with good reason. There is now a sea change in Indian products by and large.

[gopal.suri]

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=wirz ... #PPA149,M1

pls see page 149 onwards

India's Ad Hoc Arsenal: Direction Or Drift in Defence Policy?
The book is a must read for all fans of ARJUN and IA bashers

If you compare it with the book and this history you will find some difference: read the comments on the book for the year 1993 (i cannot copy and paste it here). Look at the History in cronology:

The confidence of DRDO had built up with these prototypes and many improvements were made.

The first batch of 6 PPS tanks had got manufactured through Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in Avadi, Bharat Heavy Electricals Limited (BHEL) and Bharat Earth Movers Limited (BEML), each two PPS tanks. Indent for manufacture of manufacture of 9 more PPS tanks by HVF was released to HVF in December 1992.

MBT Arjun was formally inducted into Indian Army in 1993 with these 6 tanks. The performance of PPS tanks were demonstrated to the Defence Minister, COAS and the members of the Parliament in February 1993.

The PPS tanks were put through grueling tests by the field formations covering several thousand kilometers of automotive runs on various terrains and firing hundreds of rounds per tank to establish the efficiency of the Arjun tank.

The status of the Arjun Tank was reviewed by the COAS in May 1994 and “bottom line requirementsâ€

[Sanku]

Sanku and gopal, Can you guys lay off each other. This is the second time the thread is turning into a private slugfest involving both of you.

Jagan; many thanks for stepping in and sorry for the trouble; but I would request one thing; please go through the thread and see what begins where; I believe that will be telling in itself.

I wish to put on the record that I have NO wish for any slugfest -- however what should I do when attacked?