Indian Missile Technology Discussion

[Austin]

will they stop and then launch?

AFAIK the train has to stop for launch. The various Russian rail mobile ICBMs did this. I would think firing would be from pre-surveyed spur line positions.

The train may have to stop briefly for the launch , but I dont think it will be some pre-surveyed sites , atleast not from A-3 onwards.

Once you have your target list co-ordinate , getting ones own updated co-ordinate from GLONASS, IRNS while the train is on the move should be possible.

Since A-3 is not dependent on any external means to correct/update it self during its flight , its just keep moving , and when required fire and forget.

[SaiK]

which is better? (bang for the buck.)

1. MIRVs with Decoy?
2. MIRVs fully loaded, but each has stealth skins, dodge ABMs, and is > ABMs mach speed?

why waste on decoys for ICBMs?

[Gerard]

Decoys can be inflated. One of the MX nosecone photos shows what appears to be a dispenser for multiple decoys and chaff taking the place of one of the MIRVs.

The decoys (alternate targets), the chaff (radar reflecting) and released aerosols (for masking the decoys and warheads from IR sensors) turn a few warheads into a large threat cloud moving in a ballistic trajectory.

[Austin]

[quote="SaiK"]which is better? (bang for the buck.)

1. MIRVs with Decoy?
2. MIRVs fully loaded, but each has stealth skins, dodge ABMs, and is > ABMs mâ—

[ramana]

There is a psy-ops op-ed in Deccan Chronicle. No need to post in this thread. Thanks, ramana

[Rahul M]

this topic probably has been discussed previously on BR.

but even so I would like to know the situation in the light of news about newer guidance stuff that keeps appearing in the press.

what is the current accuracy level of India's SRBMs i.e prithvi ?
AAD was also supposed to lead to a solid fueled tactical missile. Is that project being followed up at all or is it just a nice idea ? how accurate will it be if the project bears fruit ?
is the guidance system able to incorporate mid-course updates from user ?

how credible is the claim that prithvis(or even Agni-I s) can be used in a tactical role i.e with conventional warheads ?
does this require surveying of target geography ? are our current assets adequate for the job ?

in fact will the pinakas be good enough to take out specific targets at long ranges, say an airfield in skardu ?

I guess that's enough questions for now !

[Arun_S]

this topic probably has been discussed previously on BR.

but even so I would like to know the situation in the light of news about newer guidance stuff that keeps appearing in the press.

what is the current accuracy level of India's SRBMs i.e prithvi?

IMHO the recent test were qualification tests for new INS. So new block of Prithvi can be expected to used the new super duper INS and INS+GPS/GLONOSS combo. I would expect accuracy for few meters suitabel for reliable runway denial and SEAD role. (I.e. < half the width of military ranway)

AAD was also supposed to lead to a solid fueled tactical missile. Is that project being followed up at all or is it just a nice idea ? how accurate will it be if the project bears fruit ?

Dont know the status, no DDM news yet right .
The idea seems very compelling from many POVs, so I think it will see day of light.

Is the guidance system able to incorporate mid-course updates from user ?

I will ask the question the other way around. What aspect of warfare will need that capabelity? Has out OODA loop become that fast that after launch, the battlefield commander can see movement of target, analyse, and would like to close in in the flight? We are talking of <10 minute time from launch to boom.

how credible is the claim that prithvis(or even Agni-I s) can be used in a tactical role i.e with conventional warheads ?
does this require surveying of target geography ? are our current assets adequate for the job ?

Prithvies absolutely. Agni-1 absolutely for targets that are beyond P-II/PIII. Knocking enemies POL, Ammo dumps, Airbases, ports, logistics nodes and HQ are valuable enough for use of Agni-I.

In fact will the pinakas be good enough to take out specific targets at long ranges, say an airfield in skardu ?

Well look at the map and see where will you need to position the pinaka for that. And will pinaka really blow up the airfield?

[Singha]

Smerch can attack place like Skardu if deployed in kargil which is very
difficult because of the tight road. for bofors they had to wiggy wiggy around
the corners.

But Pinaka can deploy into Kargil and Ladakh and takedown targets like
GULTARI which is the paf base for that region. its probably around 20km
from the LOC.

Pinaka can also take care of any artillery positions id'ed by WLR.

to deal with the Panda, it probably worthwhile to fly the Smerch in pieces
to Leh if there are depth targets on the tibet plateau in the > Pinaka range.
and strong holding of tubed artillery, Prithvi and WLR is a must.

[Raj Malhotra]

It is important to have single tube helo portable Pinaka for mountains but I wonder whether IA will be interested in one till a foreign company publishes an ad for one in Janes or something similar happens

[Arun_S]

It is important to have single tube helo portable Pinaka for mountains but I wonder whether IA will be interested in one till a foreign company publishes an ad for one in Janes or something similar happens

Dont be surprised if the next innovative product to be launched will be a Pinak type rocket that will unfurl small winglet to make it a lifting body with glide trajectory. (much liek what Prithvi did for Tacticial BM). The difference between rocket and missile will now blur and slant fired Pinaka with autopilot and flight correction will tremendously increase effectiveness and range.

Of course the product has to first sold as vapourware on Janes and then the modern Indian colony need to buy a CKD kit based license production line in to ward of evil nazar of Islamic Pakistan and Na-khuda Chinkistan.

Indian treasury is open for grabs for foreigners in collusion w/netas, but of course when it cones to DRDO and ISRO they will ensure pay commision pays peanuts fro those jobs to ensure only mentally challenged people work there for "kahiraat"/alms.

[Singha]

I wonder if its possible to make a really long range 105mm using a 52cal
barrel, extra heavy charge and rocket assist ? being 105mm the gun system
would be lighter, permitting carriage on a 4x4 tatra with the barrel folded
down into a cleavage middle of the cabin but the extra range is useful
for smashing panda targets in the absense of too many 155m.

on the exposed and dry tibet plateau terrain, if you catch a convoy or
enemy advance with a well directed barrage that ends the story.

3 "mountain strike corps" with everyone having trucks and IFVs to ride on,
good holding of tube and rocket artillery, a few helicopter borne para batallions each, LCH , SF units, everyone HAWS trained , dedicated AN32-G "desi dragon" gunships is needed to fight a war of movement and terror
in Tibet.

the next war must not be fought defending Indian soil, it must be decisively fought on the Tibet plateau and result in the
destruction/surrender of a few PLA divison units and capture of large
amts of prisoners and war booty to be presented to international media.

so no more of wasting resources laying more barbed wire, more minefields and deeper bunkers....infact remove the barbed wire. lay
the path open to conquest and pillage and build up our OFFENSIVE power.

afaik the pakis crapped out bigtime when IA pre-cleared minefield paths, cut the border fence and constructed POW camps during Parakram.
Panda must be grabbed by its tail and viciously mauled to bring them
into line

[Rahul M]

range can also be increased by using shells that deploy glide fins at the terminal stage.

[Singha]

155mm gun needs to have a dual conveyor system on truck bed
similar to whats found on SP gun turrets. this is a must to maintain heavy
fire rates with small crews. the Tata prototype did not have this.

[Chandi Prasaad]

FYI, Pinaka or artillery when fired from 15,000 ft altitude will deliver approx 44% more range.

[sanjaychoudhry]

India searches for a missile to guard installations

India has decided to go global to procure the quick reaction Surface to Air Missile System as the Trishul Missile project, being developed as an interceptor to protect the country's vital installations, is yet to be completed.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/jun/08sam.htm

[SaiK]

Defence analysts argue that Trishul missile system is not a failure but technically its performance objectives as per original Qualitative Requirements (QRs) are delayed. The main reasons for this delay are technical problems in achieving perfect 3-beam guidance and obtaining millimetric wave components from abroad.

I thought we did over come the mmw components being made in desh. Apparently not!.. or not yet.

Trishul is down by imported parts..
Barrak is down by CBI investigations..
Lets see if MBDA sails thru.

[Paul]

range can also be increased by using shells that deploy glide fins at the terminal stage.

Maulana Azhar of IC814 fame taught the Somalis how to prune the fins of the RPG grandes to achieve optimal range to hit US Helos in mid air.

[Rahul M]

ok, somebody tell me, what is the difference between

this nag and

this one.

Also, what is this thingy ?

http://foto.vg.no/show_image.php?bid=98387801

brahmos infoboard with a highly idiotic typo.

http://foto.vg.no/show_image.php?bid=98387856

[sombhat]

http://foto.vg.no/show_image.php?bid=98387861

What's this one??

[Willy]

What's with the "trishul yet to be completed" thing. Thought that it had been deemed a technological demonstrator and the project closed down.

[disha]

http://foto.vg.no/show_image.php?bid=98387861

What's this one??

That is Nag as the name suggests. In English it is also known as Cobra. But I think the buffons at DRDO should have called it Nagina and put a photo of Sridevi on it. Till then, check out the BR Missile page.

[Rahul M]

disha what's the point of this completely irrelevant post ??

I'm not sure, but it could be mmr HELIcopter NAg i.e HELINA. the other one (check my post) is the old IR version.

[saumitra_j]

ok, somebody tell me, what is the difference

Rahul: I think one of them (the transparent one) is the one with IIR seeker while the other one (the more solid one) IMHO is the MMW seeker. I haven't read/heard about the DRDO being able to complete the development of MMW seeker for a long time so is there some good news in the offing ?

[Rahul M]

^^^
that's what I thought ! check the post above yours !

[disha]

disha what's the point of this completely irrelevant post ??

I'm not sure, but it could be mmr HELIcopter NAg i.e HELINA. the other one (check my post) is the old IR version.

It appears to be MMR one but not sure if it is HELI one. Anyway, why U upset with my post? It was not directed at you ... And once in a while had a jest and added to my post count, particularly now I see that my counts have been reduced down by some 100 after the upgrade.

[Abhisham]

Well IMO both the Nag are the same as they used to show the same model earlier for display and quite recently they have got a full mockup of the exact missile.

[Kakarat]

Has anybody heard of Air-Delivered Munition [ADM]?
The latest Force magazine says it is a multi-role air-launch super-sonic missile for the IAF with a range of 700km for conventional and 1200km for nuclear. it says that it is being developed by DRDO.

[bart]

I guess this could be air-launched version of the CM being prepared for naval platforms.

[Kakarat]

Has anybody heard of Air-Delivered Munition [ADM]?
The latest Force magazine says it is a multi-role air-launch super-sonic missile for the IAF with a range of 700km for conventional and 1200km for nuclear. it says that it is being developed by DRDO.

Link to the online version
http://forceindia.net/feature4.asp

[Raj Malhotra]

Prasun Fraud Gupta alias chor singh, has been peddling this theory of tie up with DRDO and Israel for the copy of HS-3 missile for a long time. Specifications in the link are a copy of French ASMPA. No way there can be "only 900kg" supersonic missile with 1200km range for the nuke role.

[ramana]

I thought that it looked like an desi ASMP too! And note his payload yield!

[ramana]

X-Posted...

FWIW from Defence News

New Indian Cell to Coordinate Military Space

New Indian Cell to Coordinate Military Space
By vivek raghuvanshi
Published: 10 Jun 11:39 EDT (07:39 GMT) Print | Email

NEW DELHI - In an effort to speed up military space projects, India has launched an organization to coordinate all such efforts by the Armed Forces, the Department of Space and the Indian Space Research Organisation.

Called the Integrated Space Cell, the new organization will "counter the growing threat to our space assets" by completing work on India's home-grown anti-satellite system being developed at defense research agency laboratories, a ministry release said.

It will also complete work on the Aerospace Command, proposed in 2005 by the headquarters of space technologies that will link radar and communications networks and be used for ballistic missile defense and intelligence-gathering.

The cell, which will function under the aegis of the Integrated Defence Services Headquarters, was announced June 10 by Defence Minister A.K. Antony at the Unified Commanders' Conference here.

A lot of info in a short para. See the ref to the anti-sat weapon in works at ASL.

[ramana]

WoW. Seems quite lot of decisions taken. 11 June 2008, Pioneer

India wakes up to plan for busting Chinese satellites

Pioneer News Service | New Delhi

Realising the need to protect its satellites and space assets in the wake of China acquiring the capability to shoot down satellites through missiles, the Government on Tuesday announced the formation of an Integrated Space Cell.

Unveiling India's steps to meet the new challenge and project the country as a power to reckon with in the arena of space-based defensive and offensive capabilities, Defence Minister AK Antony said the cell would work under the aegis of the Integrated Defence Services Headquarters to counter "the growing threat to our space assets".

Refraining from naming China or any other country to blast out satellites in space, Antony told the two-day unified commanders' conference of the Integrated Defence Staff (IDS), "Though we want to utilise space for peaceful purposes and remain committed to our policy of non-weaponisation of space, offensive counter space systems like anti-satellite weaponry, new classes of heavy-lift and small boosters and an improved array of military space systems have emerged in our neighbourhood."

He said the cell would act as a single window for integration among armed forces, the Department of Space and the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO). Incidentally, the ISRO recently launched an array of satellites, including military-specific units, and was scheduled to launch some more sophisticated satellites in the near future.

The Integrated Space Cell, sources said, would act as a precursor to the proposed Aerospace Command comprising the three services. On the anvil for the last four or five years, the Government recently asked the three armed forces to jointly come up with a detailed plan.

The Aerospace Command would protect the assets in space through network-centric weapon systems, advanced sensors capable of tracking down missiles and take evasive action and in some cases adopt offensive posture, they said. The Integrated Space Cell would do the groundwork by conceptualising the defensive systems for space assets, resources needed for extensive array of weapons and other devices and platforms to deliver the systems, they said.

Meanwhile, Antony gave the go-ahead for setting up of a defence informatics centre on the lines of the National Informatics Centre. It will cater to the e-governance needs of the Armed Forces, the Defence Ministry and other associated organisations.

He also announced the establishment of a Defence Information Technology Consultative Committee (DITCC), comprising eminent personalities from the Defence Ministry, the three Services, the Ministry of Communications and IT, academia and the industry. "DITCC has evolved a roadmap and a common approach for the integration of information technology in our Armed Forces," he added.

The two-day conference is focusing on various issues pertaining to ongoing process of jointness among the three Services, higher defence management and a conceptual way forward. Chairman Chiefs of Staff Committee and Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Sureesh Mehta, Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal FH Major, Chief of Army Staff General Deepak Kapoor, Defence Secretary Vijay Singh, Chief of Integrated Service Command Lt Gen HS Lidder, commanders and senior officers from the Service Headquarters and the Defence Ministry attended the meeting.

[srai]

Has anybody heard of Air-Delivered Munition [ADM]?
The latest Force magazine says it is a multi-role air-launch super-sonic missile for the IAF with a range of 700km for conventional and 1200km for nuclear. it says that it is being developed by DRDO.

Link to the online version
http://forceindia.net/feature4.asp

...
Based on the IAF’s Air Staff Qualitative Requirements, the conventionally armed ADM (carrying a 300kg warhead) is required to have a range of 700km and be flight-qualified on both the Su-30MKI and the Dassault Mirage 2000TH. The tactical nuclear warhead-armed ADM will be required to have a range of 1,200km. Both variants will each be powered by a liquid-fuelled ramjet incorporating integrated accelerators. The ADM will have a maximum weight of no more than 900kg, length of 5.4 metres, diameter of 300mm, width of 0.98 metres, and cruise speed of Mach 2.2 at an altitude of 200 metres, which will increase to Mach 3 in its terminal cruise phase at an altitude of 50 metres.
...

It seems bit unrealistic given the parameters.

Let's look at other similar programs:
Have Nap "Popeye"
Weight - 1,360 kg (3,000 lb)
Length - 4.82 m (15 ft 10 in)
Diameter - 533 mm (21 in)
Engine - Single stage Solid-fuel rocket
Warhead - 340 kg (750 lb) blast fragmentation or 360 kg (800 lb) I-800 penetrating
Operational range - 78 km (48 miles)

Storm Shadow
Weight - 1230 kg
Length - 5.1 m
Diameter - 1 m
Flight altitude - 30–40 m
Speed - 1000 km/h
Engine - Turbomeca Microturbo TRI 60-30 turbojet, producing 5.4 kN thrust
Warhead - 450 kg BROACH
Operational range - over 250 km

Taurus
Weight - 1400 kg
Length - 5100 mm
Diameter - 1080 mm
Flight altitude - 30–40 m
Speed - Mach 0.80~0.95
Engine - Williams P8300-15 Turbofan
Warhead - 499 kg
Operational range - over 500 km

JASSM
Length : 4.27 m (14 ft)
Weight : 1,020 kg (2,250 lb)
Speed : Subsonic
Propulsion : Teledyne CAE J402-CA-100 turbojet; thrust 3.0 kN (680 lbf)
Warhead : 450 kg (1000 lb) WDU-42/B penetrator
Range : 370 km+ (230 mi+)

ASMP
Weight - 860 kg
Length - 5.38 m
Diameter - 300 mm
Engine - liquid-fuel ramjet
Speed - Mach 2 to Mach 3
Warhead - TN 81 nuclear warhead, 150 kt or 300 kt of TNT (selective mode)
Operational range - between 80 km and 300 km

So based on these, I don't know how the ADM, as portrayed by FORCE, will have a much superior range with very similar dimensions but lower weight than the above?

[ramana]

So looks like they are ASMP specs with desired performance.

So whats it powered with unobtanium?

[ramana]

Pioneer 12 June, 2008, Op-Ed on the Space Cell

Shooting satellites

The Pioneer Edit Desk

If China can, so can India

The Government's decision to set up an Integrated Space Cell is a long over-due step in the right direction. India has been consistent in insisting on the use of space only for peaceful purposes. It has remained committed to its policy of non-weaponisation of space. Yet it cannot remain indifferent to the offensive counter-space systems that have emerged in close proximity to our country, namely in China. Space-based offensive and defensive capabilities have now become important, with many countries, particularly China, developing new capacities as far as such weapons are concerned. In January last year China shot down a weather satellite using a ballistic missile; through this act, it demonstrated its ability to shoot down satellites that it may consider inimical to Chinese interests. Quite obviously, India cannot remain indifferent to this development. The Integrated Space Cell is a precursor to the proposed Aerospace Command. It will do the groundwork by conceptualising the required defensive systems for space assets. This command will, therefore, do the groundwork necessary for the formation of the aerospace command. If increasingly space is getting militarised, it is entirely on account of the fascination with star wars that is driving space policy in capitals as disparate as Washington, DC and Beijing. This marks a departure from past policy, agreed upon by all nations, that space should not be used for military purposes but for the benefit of all humankind. The UN Outer Space Treaty of 1967 provides the framework for international space law, and it insists that space should be reserved for peaceful uses.

There are also various UN General Assembly resolutions to the effect that the exploration and use of space would be for peaceful purposes and for the benefit and use of all countries. With the end of the Cold War there was hope that research in space, as well as technologies developed for space, would be devoted to helping the people. For some time it did appear that various countries would refrain from militarising outer space. Unfortunately, this trend has been reversed in recent years. While space technology does add to national defence, what is worrying is that it also enhances offensive capabilities of states that wish to dominate over others. China fits into this category. Those who have been predicting an arms race in the space are not necessarily motivated by the desire to spread alarm. If the US and China step up their star wars spending, it is bound to impact others, more so India. After all, New Delhi has to not only factor in hostile neighbours in the east but also with Beijing whose ambitions are limitless. More important, there is no reason why India should not have the capacity to shoot down a satellite, if only to add teeth to its strategic deterrence.

It is possible that PRC is reacting to the dominance in space and militarization from others.

[merlin]

It is possible that PRC is reacting to the dominance in space and militarization from others.

Not specifically mentioning you ramana, but why do we always think that some areas are sacrosanct and will not be militarized. The big boys will try to get every advantage then can be exploiting space based means for dominance. Every agreement, written or unwritten will be broken when it suits the big boys. Even if there was no dominance in space by other big boys do you think that China would have left space well enough alone?

[Raj Malhotra]

Chor is doing fraud giri. IIRC chor touted Barak-2 missile as a two stage aster equivalent in series of articles then a ramjet and turned out that he was completely wrong. My guess is that Nirbhay would be subsonic 700km & 1200km missile while if at all India is working on lighter ramjet then it could be :-

Ramjet derivative of astra - weight of 250-350kg and range 150km

Ramjet K-31 type missle for various applications - weight 600-1200kg- range 200-400km

Note Brahmos which is liquid ramjet weights 3500kg for 300km range with 200kg warhead, now look at ADM which is 5 times lighter-not possible

[Nayak]

'Sudarsana chakra' for Army

Saturday June 14 2008 14:37 IST

Tiki Rajwi

T'PURAM: Sudarsana Chakra,’ the powerful weapon of Hindu mythology, which does a U-turn homewards after each destructive mission, may not be far from becoming a very real member of India’s futuristic military arsenal.

Buoyed by the success of the Indo- Russian venture BrahMos universal supersonic cruise missiles, Indian scientists are contemplating a re-usable projectile which will revolutionise the war theatre.

‘‘It’s basically a delivery system, which will return after delivering the warhead,’’ A Sivathanu Pillai, DRDO chief controller (Research and Development) and CEO and MD of Brah-Mos Aerospace, told Express on the sidelines of a function here. Today, missiles - supersonic or subsonic - are ‘use-and-throw’ devices which destruct along with the target.

The re-usable version can be very roughly compared to an unmanned aerial vehicle used normally for reconnaissance, but of the lethal weapon type. The plus point of a reusable projectile is that the delivery system, which transports the payload - in this case it could be a nuclear warhead - can be used multiple times for delivering warheads.

The advantages, Sivathanu Pillai said, are many; the obvious one being reduced cost of missile production. Though the delivery system will have to carry enough fuel for a round trip, even that would not be an expensive proposition, as the fuel is kerosene-based, he said.

Though India is planning a hypersonic version of the BrahMos missile, the re-usable version will not be a variant of it, Sivathanu Pillai said. The hypersonic versions will be able to fly above Mach 4, or four times the speed of sound. The supersonic BrahMos missile developed jointly by India and Russia and inducted by the Indian Army and the Indian Navy flies at Mach 2.8 speeds.

[Gerard]

Long-range missile set for launch test in Tel Aviv

The long-range surface to air missile (LRSAM), which is jointly developed by Defence Research and Development Laboratory, Hyderabad with second biggest weapons supplier Israel, is ready to go for launch test to Tel Aviv.