Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc
China has realy upped the ANte by providing Pakis with a Land Air launched cruise missile and the M-18 (Shaheen-II) to Pakistan in the last 2 years. The M-18 was expected to be ready for Pakistan in 1999 at about 2007- no suprise here. But I think the Indian PAD and AAD caught the CHinese and Pakis by suprise thus the proliferation of cruise missiles.
it is NOT the denel Mupsow because that has dual air intakes on side and
stubby main fins
http://www.geocities.com/sa_bushwar8/f1mupsow1.jpg
looks like a new version of babar glcm using the same type of air intake
and main fins but different tail fins for stability in flight.
stubby main fins
http://www.geocities.com/sa_bushwar8/f1mupsow1.jpg
looks like a new version of babar glcm using the same type of air intake
and main fins but different tail fins for stability in flight.
How difficult is it really to make a cruise missile from off the shelf components. All you really need is a turbojet, wings, and gps or other guidance systems. There are no great material science issues in CM tech.
All these are easily available to Pakistan from its allies.
I wonder if we are making a mistake of overestimating the difficulty of making cruise missiles. The most difficult challenge appears to be the air-launched part. But even that is trivial if one can model bomb and drop tank separation.
Even so it is evident that we only seeing China's reaction from its cat's paw to India's A3 tests.
All these are easily available to Pakistan from its allies.
I wonder if we are making a mistake of overestimating the difficulty of making cruise missiles. The most difficult challenge appears to be the air-launched part. But even that is trivial if one can model bomb and drop tank separation.
Even so it is evident that we only seeing China's reaction from its cat's paw to India's A3 tests.
CShankar, while I am no rocket scientist, my time here at BR has educated me in the complexity of making a missile system work...cshankar wrote:How difficult is it really to make a cruise missile from off the shelf components. All you really need is a turbojet, wings, and gps or other guidance systems. There are no great material science issues in CM tech.
All these are easily available to Pakistan from its allies.
I wonder if we are making a mistake of overestimating the difficulty of making cruise missiles. The most difficult challenge appears to be the air-launched part. But even that is trivial if one can model bomb and drop tank separation.
Even so it is evident that we only seeing China's reaction from its cat's paw to India's A3 tests.
If making a cruise missile was as simple as putting together the components listed and lighting a fire under it like diwali pataka, many many more countries would have had these missiles. It is like saying that what's a ballistic missile, just put a motor with fuel on bottom, stick a few fins, put the payload on top, put a gps device and fire it...
Coming to Pakistan, phyrring a missile itself consumes many many PHD level people. Well somebody has to press the button !! I am afraid you are underestimating the cruise missile technology and way way way overestimating what pakis did.... I do concede that Pakistan has made great strides in pindigenous missile, the paint on the model of the missile shows a high degree of control of the painting process and hence we should not underestimate their painting capabilities...
But if you seriously believe that pakistan came anywhere close to even developing the fin for the missile, I am afraid you might be way off the mark....
JM2P
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Because to our Govt, Artillery means Bofors Guns and it means corruption, it does'nt matter wether it is Bofors or SWS Bofors or BAE Bofors. Tried to change that with Denel, but with that too burned it's finger with kickback and corruption allegation.sum wrote:Dont see why the "head start" shouldnt extend further given that our govt seems to go into a coma when ever the word artillery is mentioned??
So our poor army has to cope up with Govt fear whenever it goes shopping for artillery. I think the biggest culprit is our media which constantly gives fire to such issues not thinking about National Security but their TRPs.
Yup. So has the Pakistani Babur Cruise Missle. That has a range of 500+kms. The Klub comes in many varients one of them is an Airlaunched Varient that the Navy/AF has been thinking of inducting for a long time.Sir pardon my ignorance but BrahMos has been cleared for induction for army, and Klub is SLCM not ALCM
Also an Air Launched Cruise missle gives great flexibility in operations. The range of 350Kms is determined from point of release. An Aircraft can thus extend the range of a system depending on how far it can fly unhindered.
The Greatest threat of the Ra'ad will be felt by our Navy. Till now apart from Harpoons the only other long ranged system the pakistanis will field will be the chinese C-802s.
Couple the Ra'ad with the new Upgrade Orions with the Hawkeye Suits onboard they have an excellent maritime strike Capability. Our Surface Ships will still be launched our Brahmos from ships. Crystal Maze and Sea Eagle as of now are our only Airlaunched ASMs.
Do we have adequate SAM Cover for ourships? Will the BARAKs be able to keep up with this system?
Raad is not fast enough to be a ASM. those fixed tailfins dont look like any
ASM to me. it looks like air intake is fixed and so are the wings so a MirageIII
can carry one under the centerline.
in short, its not a replacement for harpoon. it will fly low and slow compared
to harpoon, using ground clutter to avoid detection.
ASM to me. it looks like air intake is fixed and so are the wings so a MirageIII
can carry one under the centerline.
in short, its not a replacement for harpoon. it will fly low and slow compared
to harpoon, using ground clutter to avoid detection.
Raad is not fast enough to be a ASM. those fixed tailfins dont look like any
ASM to me. it looks like air intake is fixed and so are the wings so a MirageIII
can carry one under the centerline.
in short, its not a replacement for harpoon. it will fly low and slow compared
to harpoon, using ground clutter to avoid detectionfiiiriiisoiiiwoaowoaow2lakrlllf;;;gl;lgzlflsllglhlkzkmhlknsnbncjkskkkfkkkgk\kiiiityyyyyyiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii9iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
ASM to me. it looks like air intake is fixed and so are the wings so a MirageIII
can carry one under the centerline.
in short, its not a replacement for harpoon. it will fly low and slow compared
to harpoon, using ground clutter to avoid detectionfiiiriiisoiiiwoaowoaow2lakrlllf;;;gl;lgzlflsllglhlkzkmhlknsnbncjkskkkfkkkgk\kiiiityyyyyyiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii9iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
I disagree... I know from personal experience that amateur model ac enthusiasts can easily make gps controlled aerial vehicles with OTS (off the shelf) components that can follow a preset randomized paths in flight. What they are unable to do is to mount more powerful engines without raising official eyebrows here in the US. Even amateur rocket enthusiasts are not allowed to put guidance systems into their rockets since that is deemed a security threat.bhavin wrote: buncho stuff sniped...
Coming to Pakistan, phyrring a missile itself consumes many many PHD level people. Well somebody has to press the button !! I am afraid you are underestimating the cruise missile technology and way way way overestimating what pakis did.... I do concede that Pakistan has made great strides in pindigenous missile, the paint on the model of the missile shows a high degree of control of the painting process and hence we should not underestimate their painting capabilities...
But if you seriously believe that pakistan came anywhere close to even developing the fin for the missile, I am afraid you might be way off the mark....
JM2P
Infact one such project in NZ here was shutdown.
http://www.interestingprojects.com/cruisemissile/
Judging from open source information gps cruise missiles are a real possibility and cheap enough that most nation states with some technical skills can make them. The question that arises is whether these missiles are effective. OTS cruise missiles due to their simplicity are unable to fly extremely close to the ground are vulnerable to being shot down. GPS signals can be jammed and inertial guidance with terrain lookup is needed to ensure survivability. This is where a network of radar guns will be needed to shoot down these low level threats or perhaps a flying cap of trainer like jets with guns to bring down the CM in midflight.
Pakistan has a indigeniuosly painted UAV called nishan mk2 or whatever.Singha wrote:Raad is not fast enough to be a ASM. those fixed tailfins dont look like any
ASM to me. it looks like air intake is fixed and so are the wings so a MirageIII
can carry one under the centerline.
in short, its not a replacement for harpoon. it will fly low and slow compared
to harpoon, using ground clutter to avoid detection.
Raad structurally looks more like a UAV with tail wings and a low thrust turbojet with intakes at the bottom. The "missile" is aptly named Raad because here we have a UAV being prostituted for a cruise missile just to show the world that while India is way behind in air launched cruise missile , Pakistan has already operationalised it.
Going nuclear came at a cost for Pakistan
Check this news some
http://in.news.yahoo.com/indiaabroad/20 ... 288_1.html
Going nuclear came at a cost for Pakistan
Sun, May 11 09:18 AM
Karachi, May 11 (IANS) Weighing the implications of the nuclear tests carried out by India and Pakistan 10 years ago, many experts believe that while they may have contributed to stabilising bilateral relations somewhat, Islamabad still continues to pay a price for it.
Pointing out that the two South Asian countries witnessed a new balance of power in 1998, Lahore-based defence analyst Hassan Askari-Rizvi says: 'Nuclear weapons have given greater confidence to the Pakistani security establishment and, to a great extent, neutralised India's superiority in conventional defence.'
But he adds that it has also 'contributed to increasing internal insecurities for Pakistan' and lower spending on human development.
Physicist Pervez Hoodbhoy told IANS: 'Our nukes have given us the ability to destroy India, but that's about it.
'While we slowly regress, India forges ahead in science, space and computer technology, industry, education, governance, social mobilisation, nation-building, and international outreach.'
Back in May 1998, India carried out the first three tests May 11 and then two more May 13, leaving the world stunned. Not to be cowed down, and to show its own nuclear prowess, then Pakistani prime minister Nawaz Sharif told the nation he had 'settled the score' with India by carrying out an equal number of explosions.
Sharif blamed India for pushing Pakistan 'into this position' and said it had to carry out the exercise to protect itself.
Ten years on, the nuclear programme no longer remains an irritant in Pakistan-US relations, says Askari-Rizvi, because 'counter-terrorism has become the most salient issue'.
The US, however, seems more worried about the security of Pakistan's nuclear weapons.
Hoodbhoy says: 'The US has accepted India's nukes, not ours! The world is terrified of Pakistan's nukes going loose and rightly so too. It is quite possible that some day the jehadists will seize the nuclear weapons or nuclear materials.'
A.H. Nayyar, a peace activist and a physicist, agrees: 'In the year 2008, Pakistan stands miffed because the world seems ready to recognize India as a nuclear weapon state, not Pakistan. The lead in this case is being taken by the US, a staunch ally of Pakistan. It is ready to grant India the coveted status, albeit in a veiled way, but not to Pakistan.'
So what has Pakistan gained by going nuclear?
'For a while Pakistan's reputation shot up internationally. More accurately, many thought it did. The assumption was that a big stick commands respect. This is false, and the gain was strictly temporary,' says Hoodbhoy, giving an example of famine-stricken North Korea.
To Nayyar, the hope that nuclear weapons would lead to reduced expenditure on conventional defence also proved 'illusory' as the figure has increased manifold.
'An extremely euphoric Pakistan undertook the Kargil adventure (in Kashmir in 1999), only to learn the bitter lesson that in spite of nuclear weapons, the enemy can react resiliently in a conventional conflict and that nuclear weapons cannot possibly provide any guarantee against humiliation before the world,' Nayyar told IANS.
Going nuclear may have cost Pakistan's exchequer but, if you ask Hoodbhoy, the real damage was psychological.
'Our society became still more militarised and Pakistan's foreign policy became aggressive,' he says citing the Kargil and the Afghan wars.
'Our generals fantasized that covert jihad under the nuclear shield would cause the Indians to scamper out of Kashmir, but nothing of that sort happened. Instead, those jehadists turned against their masters. So today we are stuck with the war in FATA (Federally Administered Tribal Areas) and Swat, a direct consequence of delusional nuclear fantasies,' he says.
And that's not all. After trading nuclear secrets, Pakistan earned a bad name for itself. 'We are almost a nuclear pariah', says Nayyar.
The man behind the 1998 nuclear tests was Abdul Qadeer Khan. But his confession that he clandestinely transferred nuclear technology to Iran and Libya shocked the nation that had until then revered him as a national hero.
Nayyar says Khan made use of the network of international suppliers in sensitive material, and had no difficulty in using it to export sensitive technology from here to other countries. 'I am still open on the question of whether he did it for personal greed or as ordered. But he certainly had the means to export illicit technology.'
Says Hoodbhoy: 'The real paradox is that Khan is a nice man who worries about ordinary people, feeds hungry animals and is upset about the horrible state of education in Pakistan. Yet, whether for profit or good, he sold knowledge and weapon materials that may kill millions some day. This is a crime against humanity.'
http://in.news.yahoo.com/indiaabroad/20 ... 288_1.html
Going nuclear came at a cost for Pakistan
Sun, May 11 09:18 AM
Karachi, May 11 (IANS) Weighing the implications of the nuclear tests carried out by India and Pakistan 10 years ago, many experts believe that while they may have contributed to stabilising bilateral relations somewhat, Islamabad still continues to pay a price for it.
Pointing out that the two South Asian countries witnessed a new balance of power in 1998, Lahore-based defence analyst Hassan Askari-Rizvi says: 'Nuclear weapons have given greater confidence to the Pakistani security establishment and, to a great extent, neutralised India's superiority in conventional defence.'
But he adds that it has also 'contributed to increasing internal insecurities for Pakistan' and lower spending on human development.
Physicist Pervez Hoodbhoy told IANS: 'Our nukes have given us the ability to destroy India, but that's about it.
'While we slowly regress, India forges ahead in science, space and computer technology, industry, education, governance, social mobilisation, nation-building, and international outreach.'
Back in May 1998, India carried out the first three tests May 11 and then two more May 13, leaving the world stunned. Not to be cowed down, and to show its own nuclear prowess, then Pakistani prime minister Nawaz Sharif told the nation he had 'settled the score' with India by carrying out an equal number of explosions.
Sharif blamed India for pushing Pakistan 'into this position' and said it had to carry out the exercise to protect itself.
Ten years on, the nuclear programme no longer remains an irritant in Pakistan-US relations, says Askari-Rizvi, because 'counter-terrorism has become the most salient issue'.
The US, however, seems more worried about the security of Pakistan's nuclear weapons.
Hoodbhoy says: 'The US has accepted India's nukes, not ours! The world is terrified of Pakistan's nukes going loose and rightly so too. It is quite possible that some day the jehadists will seize the nuclear weapons or nuclear materials.'
A.H. Nayyar, a peace activist and a physicist, agrees: 'In the year 2008, Pakistan stands miffed because the world seems ready to recognize India as a nuclear weapon state, not Pakistan. The lead in this case is being taken by the US, a staunch ally of Pakistan. It is ready to grant India the coveted status, albeit in a veiled way, but not to Pakistan.'
So what has Pakistan gained by going nuclear?
'For a while Pakistan's reputation shot up internationally. More accurately, many thought it did. The assumption was that a big stick commands respect. This is false, and the gain was strictly temporary,' says Hoodbhoy, giving an example of famine-stricken North Korea.
To Nayyar, the hope that nuclear weapons would lead to reduced expenditure on conventional defence also proved 'illusory' as the figure has increased manifold.
'An extremely euphoric Pakistan undertook the Kargil adventure (in Kashmir in 1999), only to learn the bitter lesson that in spite of nuclear weapons, the enemy can react resiliently in a conventional conflict and that nuclear weapons cannot possibly provide any guarantee against humiliation before the world,' Nayyar told IANS.
Going nuclear may have cost Pakistan's exchequer but, if you ask Hoodbhoy, the real damage was psychological.
'Our society became still more militarised and Pakistan's foreign policy became aggressive,' he says citing the Kargil and the Afghan wars.
'Our generals fantasized that covert jihad under the nuclear shield would cause the Indians to scamper out of Kashmir, but nothing of that sort happened. Instead, those jehadists turned against their masters. So today we are stuck with the war in FATA (Federally Administered Tribal Areas) and Swat, a direct consequence of delusional nuclear fantasies,' he says.
And that's not all. After trading nuclear secrets, Pakistan earned a bad name for itself. 'We are almost a nuclear pariah', says Nayyar.
The man behind the 1998 nuclear tests was Abdul Qadeer Khan. But his confession that he clandestinely transferred nuclear technology to Iran and Libya shocked the nation that had until then revered him as a national hero.
Nayyar says Khan made use of the network of international suppliers in sensitive material, and had no difficulty in using it to export sensitive technology from here to other countries. 'I am still open on the question of whether he did it for personal greed or as ordered. But he certainly had the means to export illicit technology.'
Says Hoodbhoy: 'The real paradox is that Khan is a nice man who worries about ordinary people, feeds hungry animals and is upset about the horrible state of education in Pakistan. Yet, whether for profit or good, he sold knowledge and weapon materials that may kill millions some day. This is a crime against humanity.'
X Post.
The benefits military dictatorships have in running counter insurgency operations …… one can get away with displacing 200,000 people with nary a squeak.
My head hurts to even think of a thousandth of the din that would be kicked up in India if the Indian Army attempted such a move:
[quote]Tuesday, May 20, 2008
Deserted town shows human cost of Operation Zalzala
*Army estimates up to 200,000 people displaced
* Says no villager killed since all were advised to leave before start of military operation
By Iqbal Khattak
SPEENKAY RAGHZAI: Surrounded by rugged mountains and situated at a dried stream bank, Mandana village awaits return of its native residents who were displaced by the war against Al Qaeda and Taliban in Pakistan’s Tribal Areas.
In mid-January, the army dropped leaflets to urge the local people to vacate the area as the government decided to launch ‘Operation Zalzala (Earthquake)’ against Baitullah Mehsud, a powerful militant commander who was challenging the writ of the state.
“All the villagers were advised to leave for safer places because the operation could endanger their lives,â€
The benefits military dictatorships have in running counter insurgency operations …… one can get away with displacing 200,000 people with nary a squeak.
My head hurts to even think of a thousandth of the din that would be kicked up in India if the Indian Army attempted such a move:
[quote]Tuesday, May 20, 2008
Deserted town shows human cost of Operation Zalzala
*Army estimates up to 200,000 people displaced
* Says no villager killed since all were advised to leave before start of military operation
By Iqbal Khattak
SPEENKAY RAGHZAI: Surrounded by rugged mountains and situated at a dried stream bank, Mandana village awaits return of its native residents who were displaced by the war against Al Qaeda and Taliban in Pakistan’s Tribal Areas.
In mid-January, the army dropped leaflets to urge the local people to vacate the area as the government decided to launch ‘Operation Zalzala (Earthquake)’ against Baitullah Mehsud, a powerful militant commander who was challenging the writ of the state.
“All the villagers were advised to leave for safer places because the operation could endanger their lives,â€
X Post.
The medieval barbarity of the Pakistan Army in full flow.
Collective punishment is outlawed under the Geneva Convention but for the Pakistani Army it is a laughing matter
:
The medieval barbarity of the Pakistan Army in full flow.
Collective punishment is outlawed under the Geneva Convention but for the Pakistani Army it is a laughing matter
:Demolished by the Pakistan army: the frontier village punished for harbouring the Taliban
• 200,000 flee after attack on militant stronghold
• Soldiers say schools for suicide bombers found
Declan Walsh in Spinkai, South Waziristan
The Guardian
Tuesday May 20 2008
…….. army retaliation against them - for allowing the militants to operate - was swift and harsh.
Bulldozers and explosives experts turned Spinkai's bazaar into a mile-long pile of rubble. Petrol stations, shops, even parts of the hospital, were levelled or blown up.
Four months later the villagers are forbidden from returning home. Their wheat is rotting in the fields. But Pakistani commanders insist they have been merciful in their application of "collective punishment" - a practice invented by the British who demarcated the tribal areas over a century ago.
Walking through the bullet-pocked rubble, Brigadier Ali Abbas pointed to alleged bomb factories. His troops had recovered 12 detonation-ready suicide jackets, he said, and many others in preparation.
"As per the frontier crimes regulations I should have destroyed everyone's house, but I didn't. Call it my weakness. Call it kindness," he said with a wry laugh. ……..
Guardian
Jian-10 (J-10)/FC-20 and FC-1/JF-17 production affected by the earthquake
Significant damage has been done to China's defense industry by the earthquake, specifically the Chengdu aerospace complex that is just northwest of the city and comprises a large production facility, the largest military aircraft design center in all of China, and a jet engine production plant. This conglomerate designed and now produces the Jian-10 (J-10)/FC-20 single-engine medium weight fighter that is considered to be the most advanced in China's inventory, and the FC-1/JF-17 lightweight fighter that is produced in cooperation with Pakistan.
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Raytheon awarded $14.3M upgrade
Tucson, Arizona | Published: 05.28.2008
advertisement
Tucson-based Raytheon Missile Systems was awarded a $14.3 million contract modification for the MK15 Phalanx Close-In Weapon System.
The $57.6 million overall contract combines purchases for the U.S. Army and Navy, as well as Pakistan under the Foreign Military Sales Program.
Phalanx is a rapid-fire, computer-controlled radar and 20 mm gun system that is a ship's last line of defense for low-flying, anti-ship missiles.
In fiscal 2007, Phalanx accounted for $242 million in sales.
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Dunno if this was posted, but this is priceless puki puke...
F16s for India
F16s for India
Chief of the Air Staff PAF, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmad, when asked by this scribe, about the offer by Lockheed Martin regarding more sophisticated F-16s to India, commented that, "Pakistan should not lose sleep over this, it will make little difference!" These are brave words, but I would tend to agree with the Air Chief, since if the Indian RFP has asked for 108 aircraft to be produced by HAL, going by the track record of Indian "indigenous" production, it is likely to mess it up. With its bureaucratic set up and disdainful attitude towards IAF, HAL would probably create more problems than solutions.
New Delhi wants to maintain its "natural" airpower asymmetry or superiority over Islamabad. Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has lived with a numerical disadvantage, ever since its inception. It offsets it with better maintenance, greater turn-around capability of each fighter aircraft and superior tactics and training. Thus PAF would definitely "lose no sleep" with the Lockheed Martin offer of superior F-16s to India; after all it has compensated the numerical imbalance with sheer professionalism.
Delivery of four F-16s this month
Source: http://www.dawn.com/2008/06/05/top8.htm
WASHINGTON, June 4: The US Congress has approved the delivery of ten refurbished F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan, diplomatic sources have told Dawn.
Four of these will be delivered to Pakistan on June 28 and four others by July 28. Pakistan has already received two such aircraft.
Two refurbished F-16s are with the manufacturers and will be delivered soon.
Besides the refurbished planes, Pakistan is buying 18 new F-16 fighter jets from the United States.
Initially, Islamabad had agreed to buy 36 of these aircraft at a total cost of $5.1 billion, which included associated weapons, spares and upgrading of an earlier fleet purchased in the 1980s.
But due to financial constraints it later decided to halve the number of aircraft to be bought.
The decision to reduce the order by half would also halve the cost of buying new F-16s and that of the weapons associated with them.
Pakistan, however, will still have to spend $1.3 billion on mid-life update and modification of the F-16A/B aircraft purchased earlier. Engine modifications and purchasing some new equipment for the old fleet will cost Pakistan an additional $151 million.
The sources said the new aircraft would be fully equipped with weapons and facilities that came with an F-16 Block 50/52 aircraft. The planes would be capable of carrying nuclear and non-nuclear weapons.
The United States will, however, have the right to conduct frequent inspections and inventory checking.
Pakistan’s request for new planes and for the modification for its earlier fleet was put on hold after the October 2005 earthquake.
WASHINGTON, June 4: The US Congress has approved the delivery of ten refurbished F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan, diplomatic sources have told Dawn.
Four of these will be delivered to Pakistan on June 28 and four others by July 28. Pakistan has already received two such aircraft.
Two refurbished F-16s are with the manufacturers and will be delivered soon.
Besides the refurbished planes, Pakistan is buying 18 new F-16 fighter jets from the United States.
Initially, Islamabad had agreed to buy 36 of these aircraft at a total cost of $5.1 billion, which included associated weapons, spares and upgrading of an earlier fleet purchased in the 1980s.
But due to financial constraints it later decided to halve the number of aircraft to be bought.
The decision to reduce the order by half would also halve the cost of buying new F-16s and that of the weapons associated with them.
Pakistan, however, will still have to spend $1.3 billion on mid-life update and modification of the F-16A/B aircraft purchased earlier. Engine modifications and purchasing some new equipment for the old fleet will cost Pakistan an additional $151 million.
The sources said the new aircraft would be fully equipped with weapons and facilities that came with an F-16 Block 50/52 aircraft. The planes would be capable of carrying nuclear and non-nuclear weapons.
The United States will, however, have the right to conduct frequent inspections and inventory checking.
Pakistan’s request for new planes and for the modification for its earlier fleet was put on hold after the October 2005 earthquake.
Re: Delivery of four F-16s this month
The username greenpeace is not allowed as per forum guidelines. i have changed it to Pratikgreen_peace wrote:Source: http://www.dawn.com/2008/06/05/top8.htm
.
Please read the forum guidelines
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc
Pilot dies in PAF plane crash
ISLAMABAD: A T-37 Pakistan Air Force (PAF) training jet crashed near Mardan on Wednesday, killing pilot Samman Riaz. According to a PAF statement the plane was on a routine training mission and the crash apparently occurred due to a technical malfunction. No loss of life or property was reported on the ground, it added. An inquiry board has been ordered by the Air Headquarters. staff report
Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc
cshankar, there was actually a Dale Brown novel ("Storming Heaven") about this several years ago. Terrorists create crude cruise missiles and attack civilian airports with them. The novel is poorly written, but certain aspects of it are interesting.cshankar wrote:
I disagree... I know from personal experience that amateur model ac enthusiasts can easily make gps controlled aerial vehicles with OTS (off the shelf) components that can follow a preset randomized paths in flight. What they are unable to do is to mount more powerful engines without raising official eyebrows here in the US. Even amateur rocket enthusiasts are not allowed to put guidance systems into their rockets since that is deemed a security threat.
Infact one such project in NZ here was shutdown.
http://www.interestingprojects.com/cruisemissile/
Judging from open source information gps cruise missiles are a real possibility and cheap enough that most nation states with some technical skills can make them. The question that arises is whether these missiles are effective. OTS cruise missiles due to their simplicity are unable to fly extremely close to the ground are vulnerable to being shot down. GPS signals can be jammed and inertial guidance with terrain lookup is needed to ensure survivability. This is where a network of radar guns will be needed to shoot down these low level threats or perhaps a flying cap of trainer like jets with guns to bring down the CM in midflight.
Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc
This may or may not be the best thread to ask this question, but...
I'm trying to get a current ORBAT (including rough geographic locations) for the Pakistani Army. I know Ravi Rikhye used to keep one up online somewhere. Does anyone know if it's still up (and, more importantly, current)? Alternative suggestions would be gratefully appreciated.
Thanks.
Tim
I'm trying to get a current ORBAT (including rough geographic locations) for the Pakistani Army. I know Ravi Rikhye used to keep one up online somewhere. Does anyone know if it's still up (and, more importantly, current)? Alternative suggestions would be gratefully appreciated.
Thanks.
Tim
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc
Defense News
S. Korea To Export Trainer Spare Parts to Pakistan
By JUNG SUNG-KI
Published: 20 June 14:39 EDT (10:39 GMT)
SEOUL - South Korea's Air Force has reached a deal with its Pakistani counterpart on the transfer of all engines and spare parts of the decommissioned T-37 trainer aircraft, the service announced June 18.
The deal is worth 1.3 billion won ($1.26 million), it said.
The Cessna-built T-37 Tweet trainer-attack type aircraft, which was first adopted in South Korea in 1973, went out of service in 2004. The Korean Air Force operated about 55 T-37s and A-37 light-attack versions. Since 1994, the service had used the A-37 Dragonfly aircraft in acrobatic flights until last October.
Currently, Pakistan's Air Force operates the world's only twin-engine T-37 trainer.
"This contract is the Korean Air Force's first-ever direct deal with its foreign counterpart on the transfer of aircraft spare parts," said Maj. Gen. Han Seong-joo, chief of the Air Force Logistics Command. "I'm sure this will bring great benefits for both sides, including reduction of defense spending."
Col. Kim Jae-oh, who was in charge of negotiations with Pakistan, said the export items include 17 J-69 engines and other major spare parts from the decommissioned aircraft, plus many other ordinary aircraft parts. He added that the selling price of 1.3 billion won is about 24 percent of the original price of the spare parts.
In addition, the two sides agreed to sell spare parts of F-16 fighters and C-130 transport aircraft to each other if required under a government-to-government contract, Kim said.
Last year, Peru's Air Force expressed interest in purchasing South Korea's decommissioned A-37 aircraft, said a spokesman at the Defense Acquisition Program Administration in Seoul.
Pakistan Army creates new hierarchy for Subedar Majors
Pakistan is introducing new senior appointments for JCOs along the lines of the US Army Command Sergeant Major System:
http://www.dawn.com/2008/05/28/letted.htm
"Pakistan
Subedar majors’ conference
WE have been hearing of corps commanders’ conference, formation commanders’ conference, unit darbars, commander-in-chief’s visit to forward locations and military drill areas. But nobody has ever heard of subedar majors’ conference that was held in GHQ on May 13. This was the first-ever in the history of the Pakistan Army, and the credit goes to the Chief of the Army Staff, Gen Ashfaq Parvaiz Kayani, on whose initiative the most pivotal-cadre personnel have been really included in the decision-making process.
A subedar-major is always known as a mother of the unit. He is the backbone, a bridge and conduit between the commissioned, non-commissioned officers and the low-ranking cadres. Himself a soldier par excellence, he is the voice of a soldier. All the professional, administrative and disciplinary procedures revolve around his person. He is a history, a tradition and an insignia of his unit. However, he has never been in the decision or policy-making process, only a conduit to implement it.
Among other things, this is Gen Kayani’s another laudable step. He calls himself a soldier first and then an officer and under this spirit he takes pride in mingling with jawans and taking professional suggestions from them.
With their sound and ripe professional and leading skills, NCOs, naib subedars, subedars and subedar majors are no less than their commanders. Under this perspective, the May 13 conference was a landmark event, which the successive commanders are likely to continue holding in future. The decision to create new posts for corps subedar majors, division subedar majors, brigade subedar majors and Army subedar major is indicative of the general’s vision to put more reliance upon them in order to further smoothening the functioning and bridging the gaps, if any, between the officer cadre and low-ranking personnel.
Already the general has approved Rs10 billion package for the welfare of ordinary soldiers and the decision to observe the year 2008 as the ‘Year of the Soldier’ has contributed a lot to boosting the morale of the soldier and spirit to die for the country’s security.
SUBEDAR MAJOR (r) MUHAMMAD ALI
Gujar Khan"
http://www.dawn.com/2008/05/28/letted.htm
"Pakistan
Subedar majors’ conference
WE have been hearing of corps commanders’ conference, formation commanders’ conference, unit darbars, commander-in-chief’s visit to forward locations and military drill areas. But nobody has ever heard of subedar majors’ conference that was held in GHQ on May 13. This was the first-ever in the history of the Pakistan Army, and the credit goes to the Chief of the Army Staff, Gen Ashfaq Parvaiz Kayani, on whose initiative the most pivotal-cadre personnel have been really included in the decision-making process.
A subedar-major is always known as a mother of the unit. He is the backbone, a bridge and conduit between the commissioned, non-commissioned officers and the low-ranking cadres. Himself a soldier par excellence, he is the voice of a soldier. All the professional, administrative and disciplinary procedures revolve around his person. He is a history, a tradition and an insignia of his unit. However, he has never been in the decision or policy-making process, only a conduit to implement it.
Among other things, this is Gen Kayani’s another laudable step. He calls himself a soldier first and then an officer and under this spirit he takes pride in mingling with jawans and taking professional suggestions from them.
With their sound and ripe professional and leading skills, NCOs, naib subedars, subedars and subedar majors are no less than their commanders. Under this perspective, the May 13 conference was a landmark event, which the successive commanders are likely to continue holding in future. The decision to create new posts for corps subedar majors, division subedar majors, brigade subedar majors and Army subedar major is indicative of the general’s vision to put more reliance upon them in order to further smoothening the functioning and bridging the gaps, if any, between the officer cadre and low-ranking personnel.
Already the general has approved Rs10 billion package for the welfare of ordinary soldiers and the decision to observe the year 2008 as the ‘Year of the Soldier’ has contributed a lot to boosting the morale of the soldier and spirit to die for the country’s security.
SUBEDAR MAJOR (r) MUHAMMAD ALI
Gujar Khan"
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ranganathan
- BRFite
- Posts: 277
- Joined: 06 Feb 2008 23:14
Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc
Anything to try and shore up the sagging morale after defeats in kargil, SWAT, WANA and waziristan.
Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc
It seems highly unlikely that the missile was launched from the Mirage. For one, it looks simply too big for the Mirage to have carried it, let alone taken off with it. Note that the photo is taken from closer to the Mirage than the missile, so the missile is actually bigger than it looks in the photo, IMO upto 80% the size of the Mirage. In the real world, it would need something like a B-52 to release it. Also, a cruise missile is supposed to be subsonic (unless it is a Brahmos 
) and when released from an aircraft, it falls at least a hundred feet below the mother ship before its engines fire for reasons that a paki would not comprehend. If this Mirage had "fired" the missile (which the pakis seem to want us to think 
), it would have have been blown up by the ramjet exhaust. My take: this is the usual inept paki photoshopgiri.
) and when released from an aircraft, it falls at least a hundred feet below the mother ship before its engines fire for reasons that a paki would not comprehend. If this Mirage had "fired" the missile (which the pakis seem to want us to think ), it would have have been blown up by the ramjet exhaust. My take: this is the usual inept paki photoshopgiri. Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc
Long wondered the basis of Babur. Came across the Dong Hai 10 that emerged the same time as Babur.
DH-10
http://www.janes.com/defence/news/jmr/j ... _1_n.shtml
http://www.ausairpower.net/PLA-Cruise-M ... 1-1_1S.jpg
Babur
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0dq ... J/610x.jpg
Please do share incase anyone has more information on this
DH-10
http://www.janes.com/defence/news/jmr/j ... _1_n.shtml
http://www.ausairpower.net/PLA-Cruise-M ... 1-1_1S.jpg
Babur
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0dq ... J/610x.jpg
Please do share incase anyone has more information on this
Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc
The Raad airframe geometry is unusual, especially the winglets/wingtip fence on the tailfins (what are they called - taillets???). Wouldnt they mess up lateral maneuverability?
Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc
PAF trainer jet crashes
PAF's attrition record does'nt look good this year..ISLAMABAD, Jun 21 (APP): A trainer jet of Pakistan Airforce (PAF) - FT-17 on Saturday crashed near Faisalabad while pilot and trainer pilot ejected safely.
According to PAF sources, the aircraft on a routine training mission, crashed 25 miles west of the industrial city of Faisalbabd. Immediately, no loss to property or injuries on the ground have been reported.
Apparently the cause of the crash is stated to be of technical nature, while a board of inquiry has been constituted.
Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc
^ This year? Check out last 3 years. Conhinessidering that they have 1/2 the airfleet and fly 1/2 hours of IAF, their Chinese Junk fleet is falling apart...literally so..
Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc
Hi Victor No Offence , But the way you are decribing it and which seems more likely that this picture is framed as BARBUR is way too big to be launched from Mirage ,well That means that this picture is clicked with MIRAGE in pursuit of a already launched missile. Is It ???Victor wrote:It seems highly unlikely that the missile was launched from the Mirage. For one, it looks simply too big for the Mirage to have carried it, let alone taken off with it. Note that the photo is taken from closer to the Mirage than the missile, so the missile is actually bigger than it looks in the photo, IMO upto 80% the size of the Mirage. In the real world, it would need something like a B-52 to release it. Also, a cruise missile is supposed to be subsonic (unless it is a Brahmos
Also The picture caption says that Missile launched from a Aerial Platform , It does not say Launched from Mirage . Though I wonder that does PAF possess this capability to launch a missile from bigger platform
Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc
The below link is of a video made to support the launching of
Ra'ad. It shows a mirage taking off with something under
the fuselage. Video resolution is not that clear. Camera shot from a far
off distance, the scene then changes to a fighter dropping something to imply that that the ra'ad has been dropped.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5oUvivso3I
IMO a photoshop job.
Ra'ad. It shows a mirage taking off with something under
the fuselage. Video resolution is not that clear. Camera shot from a far
off distance, the scene then changes to a fighter dropping something to imply that that the ra'ad has been dropped.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5oUvivso3I
IMO a photoshop job.
Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc
You mean, it looks good and promising.Kartik wrote:PAF trainer jet crashes
PAF's attrition record does'nt look good this year..
Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc
I wanted to post this analysis by a Porki who works for the London Institute of South Asia. Being an ex-armyman and safely ensconced in London, he discusses the new porki war doctrine. I had also posted this same article in the Kargil thread because of its Kargil POV. However, the learned director also talks about the possible war doctrine. Interesting read.
Lt. Gen. Jamshed Gulzar Kiani on Kargil
Lt. Gen. Jamshed Gulzar Kiani on Kargil
Kargil Operations were carried out soon after India and Pakistan became declared nuclear powers. It was thought that a war between the two states on Kashmir was out of the question. Pakistan was advised to reconcile to the status quo. While such advice was being freely doled out by our friends, particularly the Americans, Indian troops occupying mountain tops above the Siachin Glacier was flying in the face of 'logic' and 'rationality' on which the advice was based. India is immune to the force of logic and rationality; it is driven by avoiding 'loss of face'. What it declares to be its right or its objective, it persists in striving for whatever the cost. The only way India can change its objective or course is by 'defeat'. It is important for Pakistan to be in a position to defeat India. Where its objectives are imperial and irrational, it is not hard to do so. If I was the Pakistani General or Leader, I had to drive the point home that a conventional war over Kashmir was not only possible, it could be won by Pakistan. That I consider was the 'objective' of the Kargil Operation.
A war between India and Pakistan over Kashmir is not just possible, it can be won if Pakistan is ready to climb up the escalation ladder. Kargil Heights are not the only high mountains in Kashmir. Pakistan can do a Kargil on India at dozens of points in Kashmir.
Climbing the escalation ladder is not hard, it just a question of the objective. With the limited objective that Pakistan had during the Kargil War, it was pointless escalating. India has to learn a similar lesson. India has tried to suppress the Kashmiri freedom movement since 1989. It has failed. The next time escalation would not work; Asymmetrical War has now come of age. The non-state fighters in the region have engaged two super powers - Soviet Russia and now America - in battle. Pakistan has the experience of fighting alongside them in Afghanistan and Kashmir and against them in Waziristan. The point General Jamshed made very forcefully in his TV interview was: why are we fighting against them?
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ranganathan
- BRFite
- Posts: 277
- Joined: 06 Feb 2008 23:14
Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc
Don't use words like analysis, thinking, strategy with pakis. It more like wet-dreams, verbal diarrhea and wistful begging.
Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc
x post:
Pakistan’s choices of military equipment, and particularly naval hardware, are closely watched in the Gulf and, more broadly, throughout the Middle East. Despite active backing from former French president Jacques Chirac at the time, the first bid by Armaris was rejected by the Pakistani general staff. The French firm subsequently came through last spring with a second offer that was reportedly 15% below that of its German rival HDW. However, HDWs U-214 boat finally won the nod from Pakistan at the end of last year. The setback for the French stemmed undoubtedly in part from the French had already sold 6 Scorpenes to India. At any rate, it broke with a long pattern of French submarine sales to Islamabad, for years France sold Daphne and Augusta class submarines to the Paki's. However, the fallout from the loss of the Paki contract has not only been felt in Riyadh but also in Turkey. DCNS has offered Scorpene to the Turkish Navy but finds itself once again running behind HDW for the contract. The French group is said to be maintaining its bid merely in order to reduce the profit margin of its German rival in the event it wins the deal.
Pakistan’s choices of military equipment, and particularly naval hardware, are closely watched in the Gulf and, more broadly, throughout the Middle East. Despite active backing from former French president Jacques Chirac at the time, the first bid by Armaris was rejected by the Pakistani general staff. The French firm subsequently came through last spring with a second offer that was reportedly 15% below that of its German rival HDW. However, HDWs U-214 boat finally won the nod from Pakistan at the end of last year. The setback for the French stemmed undoubtedly in part from the French had already sold 6 Scorpenes to India. At any rate, it broke with a long pattern of French submarine sales to Islamabad, for years France sold Daphne and Augusta class submarines to the Paki's. However, the fallout from the loss of the Paki contract has not only been felt in Riyadh but also in Turkey. DCNS has offered Scorpene to the Turkish Navy but finds itself once again running behind HDW for the contract. The French group is said to be maintaining its bid merely in order to reduce the profit margin of its German rival in the event it wins the deal.