Indian Military Aviation

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 24 Jun 2008 09:35

Lord knows what will happen if a war breaks out and spare parts are needed for this russian stuff. The price would probably be jacked up through the roof.

Its no use dealing with these short changers. In the long run, what India is buying is not security but insecurity.

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 24 Jun 2008 20:08

Really the one sided cost escalation may be a bad precedent, and worth to turn for a curt to solve the problem. Since the buiseness between the countries is growing, the sides cannot be remained without lawmaker support. For example, one of the Indian cellular telephon nets is owned by Russians (Alfa-Group). They obviousely have handreds of indian counterparts in India. If somebody didnt fulfill the agreement, will not they turn to Indian court? Of course they will. THe same regarding the Russian partners: if Saturn doesnt fulfill what they promised in contract, the Indian side has a perspective to defend its interests in the court. In case of Gorshkov it may be less helpfull due to extremall volume, goverments involvement, state owned warf etc. Saturn is a private company, without big economic problems and prosperous. So they must to turn money back or fulfill the contract as per agreement, I think. In this question I'm personally fully on the Indian side. BTW, Saturn now tries to buy the stocks of other engine building company UMPO, so it has money and must do as described in the contract.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 24 Jun 2008 20:22

Thank you Igorr! I really appreciate your post and the spirit in which it is written. India and Russia can be good partners if they can work out these current financial issues.

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 24 Jun 2008 20:34

Vivek K wrote:Thank you Igorr! I really appreciate your post and the spirit in which it is written. India and Russia can be good partners if they can work out these current financial issues.

Believe me, I have no a piece of $hit of respect to the greedy guys from Russian nouveau-riches with their 'nothing personal only buiseness' mentality. They sometimes threaten the exellent relations between two peoples, which is so estimated and important in Russia and not only there. The only way to put the border for them is by legislation. Sorry, but no other way around the world to hold buiseness in confine. In this particulary case my heart is fully with Indians.

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 26 Jun 2008 00:02

GOOD NEWS!! Seven Dhruvs sold to Ecuador!!

India clinches first foreign deal with Ecuador to sell Dhruv

New Delhi, June 25 (PTI) India today made aviation history by concluding a USD 51 million deal with the South American Republic of Ecuador for the sale of seven 'Dhruv' Advanced Light Helicopters (ALH).
The deal signed between Ecuador Aviation Authority and bluechip state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) envisages the supply of seven helicopters in semi knock-down conditions to the Republic in a time-frame of 15 months to two years, defence ministry officials said.

With this, India has joined a select group of nations with a capability to bid for international contracts for choppers. So far, the helicopter market has been dominated by US, European companies and Russia.

The ALH 'Dhruv' has been making waves in international air shows worldover from the past two years but international sales of the helicopter have eluded HAL.

HAL came very near bagging its first international order when it bid for the Chilean armed forces contract two years ago, but was beaten to the closing line by the US competitors.

http://www.ptinews.com/pti%5Cptisite.ns ... enDocument

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 26 Jun 2008 00:54

Two international sales in one week

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 26 Jun 2008 01:09

A turning point in Indian Aviation industry

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 26 Jun 2008 01:56

Katare wrote:Two international sales in one week

With some 75-80 in puttering around in India, the desh/videsh ratio is pretty neat.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 26 Jun 2008 02:24

2 international Sales? Que?

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 26 Jun 2008 02:38

rkhanna wrote:2 international Sales? Que?

HAL secures copter order from Peru

http://www.business-standard.com/common ... =0&chkFlg=

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 26 Jun 2008 02:40

Air force braves Red flag

New Delhi, June 25: If a Red Flag can be a red rag, this is it.

In the teeth of opposition from the Left over strategic ties with the US, the Indian Air Force is sending its most advanced fighter aircraft, a transporter, a mid-air-refueller and about 150 “air warriors” for a war game born out of lessons America learnt in its war against the communists in Vietnam.

The government has cleared the contingent and the funds required for it, an air headquarters source said today. India will incur about $20 million in despatching the contingent to the US, a figure close to the expenses the US paid for participating in the Malabar 2007 war game in the Bay of Bengal last September which, too, was opposed by the Left.

Officials from the Pentagon emphasise that India would not have to incur such expenses if it were to sign a Logistics Support Agreement, a pact that the UPA government has practically put into cold storage because of the Left.

But the defence ministry is putting the finishing touches to another US-specific “end-user agreement” that will allow verification of the use of military equipment that the US sells to India.

Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major and the IAF had wanted to send the contingent for the early-2008 edition of the Red Flag exercise. But permission for that was withheld, though, officially, it was said that the Centre was considering the implications and the financial burden. The green signal has been given now for the August edition of the exercise.

The politics and diplomatics over the war game do not concern the IAF. “We have to learn the latest in tactics and learn from the experiences of some of the finest air warriors. If we do not learn the latest in tactics, how can we develop as an advanced air force?” the official in air headquarters wondered.

But such an argument does not wash with the Left. The CPM feels that India-US military-to-military relations are part of a package with the civilian nuclear deal.

The air headquarters source said participation in the Red Flag exercise should not be interpreted as a pro-US military posture. “Our Suryakiran (Indian Airforce’s aerobatic squadron) will also be going to China during the Beijing Olympics. Our air chief has also said that a joint drill will with the Chinese PLA airforce is a distinct possibility and we are working towards it.”

The airforce hopes that these friendly gestures towards China will mollify the Left.

Red Flag is not a bilateral exercise because contingents of air forces from at least five or six more countries will participate.

The IAF contingent for Red Flag Nellis, now a war game with two editions a year, will comprise eight Sukhoi-30 Mki multirole fighters, the very latest in its fleet of combat aircraft, an IL-78 refueller, also recently acquired, and an IL-76 transporter.

ranganathan · Post by **ranganathan** » 26 Jun 2008 04:25

Will they keep the Radars switched off?

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 26 Jun 2008 05:12

Whose?

Anurag · Post by **Anurag** » 26 Jun 2008 05:27

Great break through for HAL.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 26 Jun 2008 05:27

Jagan Ji, will Rambha make a stop on east coast on way to Nellis? If so BRF from Tri state area can greet them (and take some nice pictures!). Can you find out? Any plans of going to Nellis?

ranganathan · Post by **ranganathan** » 26 Jun 2008 05:52

John Snow wrote:Whose?

MKI's whose else?

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 26 Jun 2008 06:49

I thought USAF, would switch off theirs. Sothat MKIs would not sniff and register smell.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Jun 2008 06:57

Nitesh wrote:A turning point in Indian Aviation industry

The quality and speed of after sales service will make or break HAL's export business.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 26 Jun 2008 07:00

shiv wrote:
Nitesh wrote:A turning point in Indian Aviation industry
The quality and speed of after sales service will make or break HAL's export business.

I think keeping two or three aircraft at the customer site in hanger would be great sales pitch, we could cannablise them spares or like lexus dealer lend one of them while any service realted issue crops up and heli is grounded.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 26 Jun 2008 07:07

Third Saras aircraft to fly by June 2009

The third 14-seater multi-role light transport aircraft, Saras, is being manufactured and is expected to fly by June 2009 and receive its full certification by the DGCA in mid 2010, said Director of National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL).

The IAF had indicated its intention to procure 15 Saras aircraft for its operational use, followed up by 30 more subsequently, NAL Director A R Upadhyaya told reporters.

The IAF has put forward a letter of intent. "Once we receive firm orders, the aircraft could be delivered after 36 months," said Director, Civil Aviation Programme M S Chidananda.

Currently the two prototypes of Saras were aiding flight certification. The third prototype would see a reduction of 500 kg by optimising the fuselage, using composite wings and tail, said Upadhyaya. The final aircraft was designed to fly with a total weight of 7,100 kg, he said.

Talking about cost escalation of the project since its inception, he said that in 1999 the CSIR had sanctioned Rs 131.38 crore. In 2006 additional Rs 27 crore was sanctioned and it was now seeking another Rs 40 crore towards meeting the cost of the project. The total cost of the project was estimated to be Rs 200 crore, he said.

The aircraft could be deployed for transport and light cargo transport, he said.

NAL is also in the process of developing the General Aviation Aircraft for which it has tied up with Mahindra Engineering. NAL has invested Rs 11 crore in the project with an identical investment from Mahindra, said Chidananda.

The first prototype of the five seater aircraft, the first in the country in the partnership model, is expected to fly in early 2009. The aircraft would have four prototypes developed; two by NAL and two by Mahindra, he said.

Right now the designing stage and review of designs has been completed. Once the review of critical designing part was completed, the fabrication of composites would begin, he said.

The fourth prototype was expected to be flown by 2010. Mahindra has obtained a site in Malur and Chennai for the development of the prototype, he said.

While the NAL would handle the process of obtaining certification from Indian authorities, Mahindra would handle certification for the overseas market. The estimated cost of the aircraft was Rs 1 crore, he said.

Currently the demand for this market in India was growing.

"We expect that in the next five years there would be a demand for around 150 aircraft both from the government and private bodies for such aircraft", he said.

NAL has already proposed development of a Regional Transport Aircraft, RTA-70, a 70 seat, fuel efficient, low noise turbo-prop aircraft with advanced technology features that enables lower life cycle costs and operation form semi-equipped airport.

The demand for this kind of aircraft is going to see rise in view of the hike in fuel price and the current technology for the midsized aircraft being nearly two decades old, Upadhyaya said.

"We are looking for partners, public and private both in India and abroad for this project", Chidananda said adding that Brat and Whitney with whom it had a long partnership could be one of the partners but it was open to others.

The plan period for development would be around four to seven years and Rs 300 crore had been sanctioned in the 11th plan. "We are looking to making RTA cost competitive and fuel efficient", he said. The total cost of the project was Rs 2,035 crore with Rs 665 crore for phase one and Rs 1,370 crore in phase two.

NAL had also tied up with a Baroda based firm KEMROCK to transfer its technology in carbon fibres. The firm had a capacity of 300 tonnes, he added.

NAL as part of its golden jubilee celeberation is organising a three-day International Conference on Science and Technology from tomorrow here.

Invitees from major interantional aerospace organiations would also make presentations. 300 particiapants, including 30 from abroad would participate, he said.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 26 Jun 2008 08:12

Can Saras be used at High altitude in place of Chetak/Dhruv, is the payload for cargo with that aircraft ok? Like in Ladakh and other forward areas where troops wait for chetaks to come and evacuate etc.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 26 Jun 2008 10:11

John Snow wrote:Can Saras be used at High altitude in place of Chetak/Dhruv, is the payload for cargo with that aircraft ok? Like in Ladakh and other forward areas where troops wait for chetaks to come and evacuate etc.

You mean Cheetah. Chetaks are not used for high altitude missions nowadays and are relegated to training jobs only IIRC.

As for use in high altitudes, unless you intend to build a two thousand feet long airstrip next to each Army post the lighter helicopters will continue to rule the skies over Laddakh for the foreseeable future.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 26 Jun 2008 11:10

A Sharma wrote:Third Saras aircraft to fly by June 2009

"We are looking for partners, public and private both in India and abroad for this project", Chidananda said adding that Brat and Whitney with whom it had a long partnership could be one of the partners but it was open to others.

Tough to take these mooks seriously when such glaring errors are overlooked.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 26 Jun 2008 13:33

Nitesh wrote:A turning point in Indian Aviation industry

Kindly Xpost in the 'A Nation on the march' thread.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 26 Jun 2008 15:01

Ecuadorian Air Force orders 7 Indian helicopters for $ 50.7 million
The Defence Public Sector Undertaking, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has secured an order for supply of 7 Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopters to Ecuadorian Air Force. HAL has bagged this order amidst strong competition from M/s. Elbit, M/s. Eurocopter and M/s. Kazan. HAL’s offer of $ 50.7 million for 7 helicopters was about 32% lower than the second lowest bid from M/s. Elbit.

The first helicopter would be delivered by HAL in 6 month’s time. The contract for the supply of helicopters is likely to be signed within a few weeks. This order signifies Ecuador’s confidence in Indian technology and can lead the way for further collaboration. This contract, which will establish HAL internationally, has been extremely significant and hard fought.

HAL has already supplied 76 helicopters to the defence services with excellent serviceability records. The company is presently executing orders for 159 more helicopters for Army and Air Force.

ranganathan · Post by **ranganathan** » 26 Jun 2008 18:09

What helicopter does elbit make?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 Jun 2008 18:14

elbitized dhruv?

soutikghosh · Post by **soutikghosh** » 26 Jun 2008 23:41

Kakarat wrote:Ecuadorian Air Force orders 7 Indian helicopters for $ 50.7 million
HAL has bagged this order amidst strong competition from M/s. Elbit, HAL’s offer of $ 50.7 million for 7 helicopters was about 32% lower than the second lowest bid from M/s. Elbit.

.

With which helicopter was ELBIT in competition with ?

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 27 Jun 2008 00:55

soutikghosh wrote:
Kakarat wrote:Ecuadorian Air Force orders 7 Indian helicopters for $ 50.7 million
HAL has bagged this order amidst strong competition from M/s. Elbit, HAL’s offer of $ 50.7 million for 7 helicopters was about 32% lower than the second lowest bid from M/s. Elbit.

.
With which helicopter was ELBIT in competition with ?

I think another version of Dhruv with different/better payload/avionics

soutikghosh · Post by **soutikghosh** » 27 Jun 2008 01:34

Katare wrote:
soutikghosh wrote: With which helicopter was ELBIT in competition with ?
I think another version of Dhruv with different/better payload/avionics

Then whose avionic suite was HAL's DHRUV offering ?

clay · Post by **clay** » 27 Jun 2008 01:46

BAE Systems wants more for its 57 Hawks

A former HAL official, who was part of the team that negotiated the earlier deal, said the manufacturers have jacked up the price since they know that we need the plane....

Rising inflation across the world has hit the Indian Armed Forces, with British arms firm BAE Systems Plc. increasing by 50% the price of 57 Hawk advanced jet trainers that India’s air force and navy are looking to order, citing rising costs of aluminium and titanium used in these planes.....

Has anyone come across this news before?Complete article in the link.
After Russia now its the Brits turn to jack up their prices. Looks like everyone considers India to be their personal piggy bank.

Regds, Clay

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 27 Jun 2008 02:40

Do we not have a clause for price escalation ???? if not GoI from now on should post that requirement to be submitted. And yes i forgot to mention a heavy penalty clause on any missed deadlines and any things changed. If you want business lets do business in the way of businessmans from now...

clay · Post by **clay** » 27 Jun 2008 02:56

ashish raval wrote: Do we not have a clause for price escalation ???? if not GoI from now on should post that requirement to be submitted. And yes i forgot to mention a heavy penalty clause on any missed deadlines and any things changed. If you want business lets do business in the way of businessmans from now...

I think there must be such a clause. But what needs to be seen is our we enforcing it? Same goes for penalties for failed deadlines.

Anyway, in this particular case if I am not mistaken, it is for the additional trainers we require over and above the original order.

Regds, Clay

enaiel · Post by **enaiel** » 27 Jun 2008 08:28

HAL had teamed up with IAI for avionics, marketing and product support for Dhruv. Elbit is a completely different company, and probably competed by offering to sell some more upgraded SA-330 Pumas that Ecuador had previously bought from them. I think they are manufactured in Romania by Elbit in collaboration with IAR Brasov. I am really surprised how much cheaper Dhruv turned out to be than that upgraded Puma!

Katare wrote:
soutikghosh wrote: With which helicopter was ELBIT in competition with ?
I think another version of Dhruv with different/better payload/avionics

ranganathan · Post by **ranganathan** » 27 Jun 2008 08:41

Yup must have been the IAR330 that romania makes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAR_330

As the specs show its a little heavier than Dhruv (max TO weight 7.4 tonne) but the speed range and ceiling specs fall short of the dhruv by a long margin.

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 27 Jun 2008 13:41

BAE Systems wants more for its 57 Hawks

Quote:
A former HAL official, who was part of the team that negotiated the earlier deal, said the manufacturers have jacked up the price since they know that we need the plane....

Rising inflation across the world has hit the Indian Armed Forces, with British arms firm BAE Systems Plc. increasing by 50% the price of 57 Hawk advanced jet trainers that India’s air force and navy are looking to order, citing rising costs of aluminium and titanium used in these planes.....

Has anyone come across this news before?Complete article in the link.
After Russia now its the Brits turn to jack up their prices. Looks like everyone considers India to be their personal piggy bank.

Regds, Clay

Hate to say this but I told you so...

Anyhow, I hope Prasad, that somewhere down the line you recognize that this constitutes breach of contract and is illegal!
I also hope you are this understanding when GTRE asks for additional funds and time. or when for that matter Isreal asks for more money and time for the Phalcons...you give in to the Russians again and again you are going to set a precedent. Everyone who every sells anything to you from now on in, will ask for more money and time!

You let one get away and everyone will jump on the bandwagon...
'behti ganga main haath dhone'
Take em all to court, and keep doin it till they either honor the contract or get tired of us and give us the damn stuff for free!

PaulJI · Post by **PaulJI** » 27 Jun 2008 16:59

enaiel wrote:.... Elbit is a completely different company, and probably competed by offering to sell some more upgraded SA-330 Pumas that Ecuador had previously bought from them. I think they are manufactured in Romania by Elbit in collaboration with IAR Brasov. I am really surprised how much cheaper Dhruv turned out to be than that upgraded Puma!.

Elbit does not build helicopters. IAR Brasov makes the helicopters. Elbit has developed an upgrade, in collaboration with IAR.

rachel · Post by **rachel** » 27 Jun 2008 19:39

Raveen wrote:
BAE Systems wants more for its 57 Hawks

Quote:
A former HAL official, who was part of the team that negotiated the earlier deal, said the manufacturers have jacked up the price since they know that we need the plane....

Rising inflation across the world has hit the Indian Armed Forces, with British arms firm BAE Systems Plc. increasing by 50% the price of 57 Hawk advanced jet trainers that India’s air force and navy are looking to order, citing rising costs of aluminium and titanium used in these planes.....

Has anyone come across this news before?Complete article in the link.
After Russia now its the Brits turn to jack up their prices. Looks like everyone considers India to be their personal piggy bank.

Regds, Clay

Hate to say this but I told you so...
Anyhow, I hope Prasad, that somewhere down the line you recognize that this constitutes breach of contract and is illegal!
I also hope you are this understanding when GTRE asks for additional funds and time. or when for that matter Isreal asks for more money and time for the Phalcons...you give in to the Russians again and again you are going to set a precedent. Everyone who every sells anything to you from now on in, will ask for more money and time!
You let one get away and everyone will jump on the bandwagon...
'behti ganga main haath dhone'
Take em all to court, and keep doin it till they either honor the contract or get tired of us and give us the damn stuff for free!

The ultimate and only solution, of course, is to stop buying from foreigners. The advanced trainer was something we should have been able to devlop and build on our own. A nation which has ambitions of deploying an LCA should be able to crank out a decent trainer!

Dhanush · Post by **Dhanush** » 27 Jun 2008 21:32

rachel wrote:
Raveen wrote:

What exactly happened to HAL's own AJT program the Combat Air Trainer (CAT)? There were rumours that the design was frozen and it would be an all composite aircraft etc. Larzac also offered its engines for the aircraft. Isnt the IAF interested in CAT? Or is HAL unable to match up with Hawk's capabilities?

The same story happened with HAL's Light Observation Helicopter (LOH). The design was apparently frozen long time back but then later the project was dropped and HAL has revived the project now. Precious time lost!

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 27 Jun 2008 21:48

Dhanush wrote: What exactly happened to HAL's own AJT program the Combat Air Trainer (CAT)? There were rumours that the design was frozen and it would be an all composite aircraft etc. Larzac also offered its engines for the aircraft. Isnt the IAF interested in CAT? Or is HAL unable to match up with Hawk's capabilities?

The same story happened with HAL's Light Observation Helicopter (LOH). The design was apparently frozen long time back but then later the project was dropped and HAL has revived the project now. Precious time lost!

HAL was'nt able to convince IAF that this was the way to go..so, for all practical purposes, the project has been canned. in a way, its good for the LCA..it took a hit when the IJT was developed simultaneously with it. many designers were pulled along to develop the IJT and there was a little lack of resources on the LCA program.

anyway, the engine that would've flown it would've been the Al-55I, and it would've been twin engined, not Snecma's Larzac engine since it was not producing adequate thrust for the IJT. (Larzac is the engine name, so its not Larzac that was offering the engine).