Indian Missile Technology Discussion

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Jun 2008 19:50

Semantics maybe - but isn't probability (in percentage) always more than zero and less than 100?

if it is 100%, it is no longer "probability". Someone please educate me if I am mistaken.

Kunal · Post by **Kunal** » 26 Jun 2008 20:04

Probability value of an event can be from 0 to 1. 1 equates a 100% success rate. So, 100% probability is a misnomer, but because of definition of the range of values rather than the semantics.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 27 Jun 2008 16:52

There is a story about 100% kill probability. During the british raj, the "dhwara" came visiting, and wanted to go hunting. He wanted to shoot a deer. So the hosts trapped a deer and tied it up on a tree. The dhwara came and shot it.

And he hit the rope, and the free deer ran away with its life.

Can you claim 100% kill probability if you fire a missile from a stationary platform to another stationary platform? Nope. There are a hundred things that can go wrong in the process.

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 27 Jun 2008 17:16

Just wondering how many types of sam we need,we already have Aakash,trishul was partially successful,we had success in AAD,PAD,we are working with israel on barak NG,there were news about india and israel developing Arrow-2 and news about negotiations for purchase of s-400 or patriots,now a new missile Maitri.instead of going for a new missile again why dont we take Assistance from the french on achieving perfect 3-beam guidance and obtaining millimetric wave components from abroad for trishul,i think that was the major hurdle which resulted in scrapping the proj.i think MOD is equally confused as i am

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jun 2008 20:07

There are mixed emotions about this SAM business. The more number the more difficult is the logisitic tail but at same time more difficult to jam and make inoperable by challengers. Also arms purchases are a form of military diplomacy.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 27 Jun 2008 20:10

that is true ramana.
the mere presence of more than two varieties of SAMs act as effective force multipliers.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Jun 2008 06:12

once smitten twice shy.. if we have bad relationship with one supplier, the other may be good hopefully, if there ain't any concentrated ganging on us at strategic war times.

and, nothing worse than that we can do it!.. but not in that high numbers.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Jun 2008 07:25

Its not just supplier issues but software codes integrity too. Modern warfare is mostly electronic.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 29 Jun 2008 05:32

Two sentenced in Germany for exporting launcher parts to India

Two businessmen received prison terms in Germany Friday for selling missile-launcher parts to India at the end of the 1990s in breach of German arms export laws. Judges ruled that they knew the precision hydraulic cylinders they sold would be used to aim the missile launchers.

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 02 Jul 2008 19:06

5 cos in line to share IAF missile order

State-run defence equipment makers Bharat Electronics Ltd and Bharat Dynamics Ltd and three private sector entities, including Larsen and Toubro Ltd, or L&T, and Tata Power Ltd, are in the running to share a Rs2,000 crore Indian Air Force order for the Akash missile system.

The air force is committed to placing orders for two squadrons of the medium-range, surface-to-air missile system, developed indigenously by DRDO.

The order is likely be placed in July and the first squadron, to replace the ageing Russian-built Pechora missile system, is scheduled for delivery to the air force by 2011.

http://www.livemint.com/2008/07/0200553 ... F-mis.html

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 06 Jul 2008 14:50

DRDO to undertake first full test flight of ASTRA missile

The test flight from an IAF Sukhoi fighter aircraft could be undertaken "anytime in the next 45 days", top DRDO officials said.

Describing ASTRA as a futuristic missile, DRDO scientists said the weapon will intercept the target at mach 1.2 to 1.4 speed. The missile has already been tested on ground to prove its avionics, guidance and other sub-systems including propulsion.

clay · Post by **clay** » 06 Jul 2008 14:53

DRDO to undertake first full test flight of ASTRA missile

If sucessful I guess the Astra will be the missile of choice for BVR engagments for the IAF in the future.

Regds, Clay

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 06 Jul 2008 16:31

Neela wrote:DRDO to undertake first full test flight of ASTRA missile

The test flight from an IAF Sukhoi fighter aircraft could be undertaken "anytime in the next 45 days", top DRDO officials said.

Describing ASTRA as a futuristic missile, DRDO scientists said the weapon will intercept the target at mach 1.2 to 1.4 speed. The missile has already been tested on ground to prove its avionics, guidance and other sub-systems including propulsion.

May be a dumb question, but is this is the speed at which the missile flies or it will intercept the targets flying at this speed ?

ajay_hk · Post by **ajay_hk** » 07 Jul 2008 02:37

Posting in full as the URL may not be archived...

ASTRA missile full test-flight in 'next 45 days'
Sunday, 06 July , 2008, 14:33

New Delhi: In a major technology leap, Indian defence scientists are ready to go ahead with the first full test-flight of its indigenously developed air to air beyond visual range missile, ASTRA.

The test-flight from an IAF Sukhoi fighter aircraft could be undertaken "anytime in the next 45 days", top DRDO officials said.

A successful test-flight of ASTRA will plunge India into a select group of nations to have such a technology. Only US, France, Russia and China have so far produced such advance missiles, which enables fighter pilots to lock-on and shoot down enemy aircraft almost 90-120 km away.

Describing ASTRA as a futuristic missile, DRDO scientists said the weapon will intercept the target at a speed of Mach 1.2 to 1.4 . The missile has already been tested on ground to prove its avionics, guidance and other sub-systems including propulsion.

Any success with air to air ASTRA missile will come as another milestone in defence research and cap recent strings of success the DRDO scientists have had in building at producing for the country -- short to medium range -- surface to surface missile system capable of delivering nuclear war heads at long distances.

The test-firing of the ASTRA missile may coincide with the second test-firing of country's anti-missile missile, which is also due by September this year.

The defence scientists are also near breakthrough in test-firing the country's first underwater launch ballistic missile, Sagarika.

Sagarika has already been test-fired from a pontoon, but now DRDO is planning a full-fledged test of the missile from a submarine and for this purpose may use the services of a Russian Amur class submarine.

Planned to arm the country's indigenous Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas, ASTRA after user trail by IAF may now be initially integrated with the SU-30 MKI and later with LCA.

Though DRDO scientists refused to give out the range of the ASTRA missile, sources said for extreme high altitude interdiction the initial series of ASTRA missile will have 90-110 km skill range. But at lower altitudes of up to 30,000 ft the missile will have a range of 44 km and those launched at sea level of up to 30 km.

DRDO officials said ASTRA could also arm the IAF's frontline aircraft MIG-29 and Mirage 2000 which are to go in for mid-life upgradation this year.

Notwithstanding the test firing of ASTRA the upgraded Mirage 2000 are also likely to be armed with MBDA's new meteor world-class air-to-air beyond visual range missiles. {is this DDM?}

Along with undertaking testing of various range of missiles, the DRDO is pursuing with vigour new futuristic missile technology based on hypersonic rockets.

Under this project, the Indian scientist are developing a hypersonic vehicle which will have a dual use technology.

These hypersonic missiles with a speed of more than Mach 5 can be converted as long-range cruise missiles of the future.

"The laboratory trials are progressing well and when finally developed this hayer sonic rocket systems can also be used for launching satellites at low cost," DRDO officials said.

The DRDO is also focusing on development of multiple role missiles, under which a single missile would incorporate precision guided sub-munitions which would attack multiple target instead of a single target.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 07 Jul 2008 09:44

Hey guys,

Does anyone know of the current status of the KALI expiremental microwave linear electron accelerator???

There were a few articles some time back...havent seen or read anything about it for ages. I know the russians were experimenting with something called the Ranets-E microwave weapon.

Admins please note this is the first time I am providing a weblink I dont know whether this is the right format. Please let me know of the right format.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-PLA- ... tml#Ranets

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 07 Jul 2008 10:19

ajay_hk wrote: A successful test-flight of ASTRA will plunge India into a select group of nations to have such a technology. Only US, France, Russia and China have so far produced such advance missiles, which enables fighter pilots to lock-on and shoot down enemy aircraft almost 90-120 km away.

Pi$$-poor reporting.

China only started the development of SD-10 in 1996 and unveiled it on 2006.

Seems more like using the components of R77 with only the casing developed by the mooks.

So the reporter actually adds Chinese copying efforts to the pedigree of countries like US, France and UK.

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 07 Jul 2008 12:56

ajay_hk wrote:Posting in full as the URL may not be archived...
ASTRA missile full test-flight in 'next 45 days'

India-South Africa-Brazil were jointly developing a LRAAM,any news about it?,i dont understand, why are we going for 2 missiles of same Type

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Jul 2008 12:58

narayana wrote:
ajay_hk wrote:Posting in full as the URL may not be archived...
ASTRA missile full test-flight in 'next 45 days'
India-South Africa-Brazil were jointly developing a LRAAM,any news about it?,i dont understand, why are we going for 2 missiles of same Type

that was all talk and little else. SA and brazil may cooperate, of course, but not India.

rad · Post by **rad** » 07 Jul 2008 17:22

South africa has sold it soul to China, A-darter,R-darter ,umkhonto all have gone to them . The new type of anti tank missile on the the new attack heli seems suspiciously like the mokopa. Pak blogs openly acknowledge South africa`s missile sales. The darter series of missiles seeem to have been integrated on the mirage -3 in Pak along witht he HMS. They have also sold the airlaunched cruise missiles raptor-2 in the class of KH-59. i have a feelig that we have boycotted Denel because of their sales of these systems to the jehadis

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Jul 2008 18:06

a plausible explanation. PRC specializes in picking up people and technology from
struggling mil-industrial shops in places like south africa, ukraine, russia (post their collapse in 91), other soviet republics.

I wouldnt be surprised if they have picked up useful bits and pieces like astros
mlrs tech from brazil too.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 07 Jul 2008 18:41

India keen to export Brahmos missile

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Jul 2008 21:02

The aparthied rgime used to cooperate with TSP as counter to Indian support for ANC. After the old regime was thrown out as Indian support to ANC was covert and not much known, the SA officials started anti-Indian moves as continuation of SA policy. Thabo Mbeki was in particular very anti-Indian. Dont know waht is going on now. The best policy is to give them joint projects so they dont go astray.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 08 Jul 2008 20:03

Nag Missile to be tested by Indian Army in July
The summer trials of NAG Anti-Tank missile will be carried out by the Indian Army by this July end. These trials will be the final trials to decide the induction of the missiles. The third generation, hit-to-kill anti-tank missile may be inducted into the Army by the year-end or early next year depending upon the completion of the user trials. The user trials will involve missiles would be fired against static and moving targets. NAG Missile has a range of 4 kilometers.

NAG missile is equipped with imaging infrared seeker (IIR), lock-on-before launch (LOBL) capability with the seeker tracking the target prior its launch. The missile,can be operated day or night and has top-attack capability.

Astra air to air missile is scheduled to be launched by the end of August this year. The Astra missile will be launched from ground based launcher. The missile will be fitted with a dummy seeker. An external radar will guide the missile to its moving target in the air. This test will verify all the characteristics of the missile except the seeker capability.

By September end the anti-ballistic missiles will be tested. The exo and endo atmospheric missiles may be tested in tandem. Earlier, these anti-ballistic missiles have been tested individually.

srai · Post by **srai** » 09 Jul 2008 01:25

ajay_hk wrote:Posting in full as the URL may not be archived...

ASTRA missile full test-flight in 'next 45 days'
Sunday, 06 July , 2008, 14:33
New Delhi: In a major technology leap, Indian defence scientists are ready to go ahead with the first full test-flight of its indigenously developed air to air beyond visual range missile, ASTRA.

...

Describing ASTRA as a futuristic missile, DRDO scientists said the weapon will intercept the target at a speed of Mach 1.2 to 1.4 . The missile has already been tested on ground to prove its avionics, guidance and other sub-systems including propulsion.

...

Isn't Mach 1.2/1.4 a bit slow for current generation of MR-AAMs?

ranganathan · Post by **ranganathan** » 09 Jul 2008 02:57

http://www.geocities.com/vinswasre123/Astra.htm

Says speed is mach 4+?

John · Post by **John** » 09 Jul 2008 03:00

srai wrote:
ajay_hk wrote:Posting in full as the URL may not be archived...

ASTRA missile full test-flight in 'next 45 days'
Sunday, 06 July , 2008, 14:33
Isn't Mach 1.2/1.4 a bit slow for current generation of MR-AAMs?

I think they are referring to the target drone's speed.

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 09 Jul 2008 11:52

ramana wrote:The aparthied rgime used to cooperate with TSP as counter to Indian support for ANC. After the old regime was thrown out as Indian support to ANC was covert and not much known, the SA officials started anti-Indian moves as continuation of SA policy. Thabo Mbeki was in particular very anti-Indian. Dont know waht is going on now. The best policy is to give them joint projects so they dont go astray.

We helped many countries economically,morally,and even military help,but none reciprocated much,above example is of SA,i remember when Nelson Mandela was released he said India would be the first country he will visit but didnt fulfill his promise,We know what Bangladesh is doing to us even after we helped a lot,Nepal,Maldives are no exception,we give millions of dollars aid to BD and they keep sending HUJIs to us.not to forget the support yasser arafat and Plalestinian movement got from india till 90s but most of Mideast countries were pro TSP.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 09 Jul 2008 12:08

I think this is the wrong thread but carrots alone don't work unless the stick is used brutally sometimes.

Mihir.D · Post by **Mihir.D** » 09 Jul 2008 13:23

If the Astra can intercept highly maneuverable target flying at 1.2/1.4 then that should be very good. A target like F-16 or SU-30 MKK won't be flying faster then 1.4 when maneuvering to escape a ARH-AAM.
Thats my view.The gurus can help more.

A question for gurus, if the range is 100 KM in AA mode, will it be around 40 KM in the SAM mode ?

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 09 Jul 2008 17:47

There was some news about a new SSM named Ashwin which was a derivative from AAD/PAD tests,any status on that?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Jul 2008 17:52

^^^
no official comments after that tit bit. gurus think that work is going on at a moderate pace. being a solid fuelled beast should give the army lesser headache in maintaining the stuff.
after all in India's defence RnD, no news is good news.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Jul 2008 18:21

Mihir.D wrote:A question for gurus, if the range is 100 KM in AA mode, will it be around 40 KM in the SAM mode ?

No guru am I , but it should be 15 ~ 20 Km in SAM mode

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 10 Jul 2008 13:06

Rahul M wrote:^^^
no official comments after that tit bit. gurus think that work is going on at a moderate pace. being a solid fuelled beast should give the army lesser headache in maintaining the stuff.
after all in India's defence RnD, no news is good news.

Thanks Rahul,Solid Fuel will have advantage on liquid propellants as the liquid ones need to be fueled 45 days before launch,which may not be a ideal situation if a sudden war breaks out,Our Prithvis i think are liquid propelled,there were some who insisted on Solid Propellant but kalam sir thought other wise

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Jul 2008 13:18

narayana wrote:
Rahul M wrote:^^^
Thanks Rahul,Solid Fuel will have advantage on liquid propellants as the liquid ones need to be fueled 45 days before launch,which may not be a ideal situation if a sudden war breaks out,Our Prithvis i think are liquid propelled,there were some who insisted on Solid Propellant but kalam sir thought other wise

45 days before launch

, have you read the BR Prithvi page ?

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 10 Jul 2008 14:19

Austin wrote:
narayana wrote:

45 days before launch , have you read the BR Prithvi page ?

Sorry,My Mistake i put the figure 45 days from my distant memory when the debate of solid and liquid propellants was going on intial trials of Prithivi as i check now it says that the highly volatile liquid fuel can be loaded before launch but still there are disadvantages with liq fuel,difficulty in removing liq fuel from missile and back to tanker,and also if there is any minute fuel left out it can effect life time of missile, liquid propellants will require special tanks,high speed pumps,combustion chamber cooling and iginiton system makin it less reliable and high on maintenance.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 10 Jul 2008 15:33

Updated DRDL website

http://www.drdo.com/labs/drdl/areas.html

ASTRA

ASTRA is a Beyond Visual Range (BVR) air to air missile indigenously designed and developed to engage and destroy highly maneuvering supersonic aerial targets. This highly agile and accurate missile can intercept high speed, highly maneuvering targets and can pull High level maneuvers. The kill boundary of this vehicle gives the enemy no chance of survival. This is one of its class with a low all up weight to have high launch range capability, this weapon system is meant for platforms like SU 30MKI, Mirage 2000 of Indian Air force and LCA developed by DRDO.

Salient Features

* Airborne Launcher adaptable to Different Fighter Aircrafts
* Smokeless Propulsion
* Inertial Mid-Course & Terminal Homing
* State-of-art ECCM features
* All weather capability
* Launch Speed 0.4M to 2M
* Launch Altitude SL to 20Km
* Launch Range 80Km

HELINA (Helicoptor launched Anti tank Missile)

A variant of NAG Missile to be launched from Helicopter is being developed under the Project named HELINA. The missile will have a range of 7 Km with all other features similar to NAG Missile system

HSTDV (Hypersonic Technology Demonstrator Vehicle)

Mission

Project HSTDV is a technology demonstrator aimed to demonstrate autonomous Flight of a Scramjet Integrated Vehicle using kerosene. The related technologies are new not only for India but for the entire aerospace community in the world and have potential applications in the areas of civil, military and space sectors.
A demonstrator flight vehicle has been conceptualise to demonstrate the Scramjet technology for a short duration of about 20 seconds.

* Mach No 6.5
* Altitude 32.5 KM
* Flight duration of cruise vehicle 20 seconds

Mihir.D · Post by **Mihir.D** » 10 Jul 2008 15:44

Kakarat wrote: Salient Features

* Airborne Launcher adaptable to Different Fighter Aircrafts
* Smokeless Propulsion
* Inertial Mid-Course & Terminal Homing
* State-of-art ECCM features
* All weather capability
* Launch Speed 0.4M to 2M
* Launch Altitude SL to 20Km
* Launch Range 80Km

Smokeless Propulsion? Will this prevent its detection by MAWS ?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Jul 2008 15:50

Mihir.D wrote:Smokeless Propulsion? Will this prevent its detection by MAWS ?

No smoke means low smoke , like the Mig-35

MAWS should detect approaching missile based on its IR signature.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 10 Jul 2008 18:05

I admit I know diddly squat about MAWS, so here goes :
which method do MAWS(s) use , IR or Rad ?
from your post it appears that MAWS use only IR. but for an incoming missile, which only presents its front-on aspect (exhaust not in LOS), IR detection should have some difficulty.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 10 Jul 2008 18:24

Rahul M wrote:I admit I know diddly squat about MAWS, so here goes :
which method do MAWS(s) use , IR or Rad ?
from your post it appears that MAWS use only IR. but for an incoming missile, which only presents its front-on aspect (exhaust not in LOS), IR detection should have some difficulty.

AFAIK IR and UV.