Indian Military Aviation

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 24 Jul 2008 00:00

This chopper procurement is another fiasco in the making. The above news reports doesn't mention the fact that total requirement is more than 300. Armed forces wanted procure all of them in fly away condition from OEM, no license manufacturing at HAL (delays, quality and cost over run). HAL wanted it's pound of flesh. The compromise formula is, Armed forced import 2/3 requirement off the shelf, while HAL will develop LOH to fulfill the remaining 1/3rd requirement in 5-6 years! What tamasha.

AH 64 is DDMski...not for this RFP.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Jul 2008 00:03

AHA?

IMHO, the newer Longbow Apache (LBA), AH-64D should have been RFP-ed.

Perhaps with hellfire API, so that we could get to see how Nag (Hellina) could get be integrated as well. Remember, the mmw is exactly where we were not advancing.

Per FAS, Ds are 720% more survivable, 400% more lethal, [some are classified], excellent longbow radar for precision attack,

The main problem is which helo is more capable for hover and attack at above 20-25K feet?

Luxtor · Post by **Luxtor** » 24 Jul 2008 00:55

lakshmic wrote:
India floats $750 mn global tender to buy choppers
The three US companies invited to submit their bids are Bell Helicopters with their Shen 407 light choppers, McDonnel Douglas with their AH-64 A and Sikorsky with their S-3000 helicopters
AH-64A or Bell 407 ? Are they even in the same class ? Is it DDM-itis or am I missing something ?

No, You're not missing anything. It's the reporter that compiled that report that's missing some basic research effort. AH-64 is an out right attack helicopter with no utility capability. So it doesn't even belong in the RFP. Don't know how the reporter got that mixed up with the light utility helicopter RFP. IA and IAF want some light cargo haulers to reach the high mountains where our troops are positioned to carry supplies, medivac duties etc.

Along the same topic, why haven't the IA & IAF asked for our own ALH helicopters for this RFP? Maybe HAL will not be able to build so many ALHs in the short time span proposed? I think we'd be hard pressed sell any further ALHs to international customers in the future if our own armed forces don't buy them for our future needs, even though IA, IAF & IN operate around 80(?- guessing) of them currrently.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 25 Jul 2008 01:05

A dream come true for IAF

A dream come true for IAF

Ravi Sharma

Rookie pilots to fly the AJT in Bidar on August 4

It will help IAF take training to an advanced level

BANGALORE: An almost 25-year-old wait will come to an end on August 4 when trainee Indian Air Force (IAF) pilots at the Air Force Station in Bidar (North Karnataka) get into their Hawk Advanced Jet Trainers (AJT) cockpits and go through the paces as they attempt to become full-fledged fighter pilots.

For the IAF, the need to procure an AJT was felt way back in the early 1980s. The Indian Government signed a contract worth around $1.75 billion for the purchase of Hawks in March 2004 with the British BAE Systems. Under the contract, the IAF will procure 66 Hawk Mk 132s, of which 24 will be built in the United Kingdom by BAE Systems, and the remaining 42 being manufactured under ‘licence build’ in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

Speaking to The Hindu Air Marshal V.R. Iyer, Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Training Command, Air Force, said that the batch of rookie fighter pilots, all of whom had been commissioned into the IAF last June and were currently undergoing training, would be the first pilots in India to be trained on the Hawks.

But with delays plaguing the delivery schedule of the BAE Systems built Hawks — only 14 of the 24 aircraft have so far flown into Bidar — and with one crashing during a sortie, only 18 of the 37 pilots in the batch will be flying the Hawks.

The other pilots will fly the Kirans, which will be in service with the IAF till 2011.

According to Air Marshal Iyer, the Hawks will enable the IAF to take fighter pilot training in the IAF to a new and more advanced level. “Trainee pilots will learn various aspects of tactical fighter flying like close formation flying, air combat, weapon delivery and navigational skills in an aircraft whose avionics is as good as that in any frontline combat aircraft. Pilots will be turned out much better prepared and obviously better products.”

After completing training on the Hawks, these pilots will get posted to the IAF’s operational fighter squadrons, flying aircraft such as the MiG-21 Bison, Mirage 2000 or the Su-30 MKI.

The IAF is hoping that most of the next batch of pilots will be able to train on the Hawks since around 30 of these aircraft should be in its inventory by January 2009. HAL will be delivering the first indigenously built Hawk by the middle of August.

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 26 Jul 2008 00:40

HAL to fly into LatAm market with Cheetah

After tasting success with its Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) Dhruv’ helicopters, state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is poised to make further inroads into the Latin American market with its light helicopter Cheetah.

According to highly placed sources in the ministry of defence (MoD), “Surinam and Colombia have expressed interest in the ‘Cheetah’ helicopters.”

These countries have seen the performance of these helicopters and a team will probably travel there for the display, sources said.

............................

“The queries that we have received for the Latin American countries are for the civilian usage,” said sources

.............................

Also, for the India Navy’s rotary UAVs, an agreement has already been reached with IAI of Israel for joint development, under which the conversion of the Cheetah helicopter will be done with introduction of automated controls.

“The choice of Cheetah was obvious as we have them in large numbers, all the three services use them and they are time-tested. While the contract has yet not been signed, we have started work on collection of aerodynamic data on Cheetah helicopter so that necessary flight control systems can be developed,” said officials of HAL.

To start with, two Cheetah helicopters will be converted—one in India and another in Israel. Subsequently, HAL will produce fresh Cheetah helicopters with the automatic control system in place.

http://www.financialexpress.com/news/HA ... ah/340166/

Dhanush · Post by **Dhanush** » 26 Jul 2008 11:53

Luxtor wrote:
lakshmic wrote: AH-64A or Bell 407 ? Are they even in the same class ? Is it DDM-itis or am I missing something ?
No, You're not missing anything. It's the reporter that compiled that report that's missing some basic research effort. AH-64 is an out right attack helicopter with no utility capability. So it doesn't even belong in the RFP. Don't know how the reporter got that mixed up with the light utility helicopter RFP. IA and IAF want some light cargo haulers to reach the high mountains where our troops are positioned to carry supplies, medivac duties etc.

Along the same topic, why haven't the IA & IAF asked for our own ALH helicopters for this RFP? Maybe HAL will not be able to build so many ALHs in the short time span proposed? I think we'd be hard pressed sell any further ALHs to international customers in the future if our own armed forces don't buy them for our future needs, even though IA, IAF & IN operate around 80(?- guessing) of them currrently.

LOH, that needs to be procured is in the 'light' category ~ 3 tonnes. ALH is in the medium category ~ 5.5 tonnes. That is why HAL wants to build a new LOH based on the ALH platform with reduced weight and some upgrades. AFAIK, 197 will be imported and rest will be our own LOH designed and manufactured by HAL.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 29 Jul 2008 01:45

From : http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6311683
India Air Force
IAI 1125 Astra

Shyam_K · Post by **Shyam_K** » 29 Jul 2008 05:21

Kakarat wrote:

From : http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6311683
India Air Force
IAI 1125 Astra

When did IAF get one of these? I wonder what equipment is in the fairing below the cockpit

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 29 Jul 2008 05:26

Shyam_K wrote:
Kakarat wrote:

From : http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6311683
India Air Force
IAI 1125 Astra
When did IAF get one of these? I wonder what equipment is in the fairing below the cockpit

IAF Markings - but operated by the Aviation Research Center . One of the recent Air Forces Monthly carried a picture of the Astra and had some good info on ARC's fleet in the caption.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Jul 2008 05:35

Jagan, could you add a section on ARC assets ??

in fact, shouldn't BR carry a section on the intel agencies ??

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 29 Jul 2008 05:40

Rahul M wrote:Jagan, could you add a section on ARC assets ??

in fact, shouldn't BR carry a section on the intel agencies ??

Rahul, We definitely should. That AFM caption is a good place to start. Pictures from Airliners and JetPhotos can accompany the page.

Aditya G has a good page on how ARC started and some of its early ops ad the ac types used here
http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/other-cia-tibet-conboy.html and http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/other-spies ... layas.html

Can someone take up the task?

Rupak · Post by **Rupak** » 29 Jul 2008 11:18

The 7 aircraft for ARC were part of a 1996 contract.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 30 Jul 2008 12:44

x-post from defence R&D thread
EADS and DARE developed aircraft missile warning system to enter serial production in India

cbelwal · Post by **cbelwal** » 30 Jul 2008 20:07

While trying to find something on the 'Vymanika Shastra' I came across this event which supposedely took place in 1895. According to some documents Mr.Shivkar Bapuji Talpade , resident of Mumbai flew a heavier than air plane on Chowpatty beach in Mumbai. The design of the same was derived from the roots of 'Vymanika Shastra'. ToI even has an article of this:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Citi ... urpg-2.cms

Interestingly the plane was called 'Marutsakha'. Was HAL 'Marut' names derived from this ? Whats more interesting is that these reports point to a Mercury Ion engine as the source for propulsion.

This was an event of great consequence and if true should have been discussed more. Does anyone have more information on Shivkar Bapuji Talpade and his plane ?

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 31 Jul 2008 09:58

The 7 aircraft for ARC were part of a 1996 contract.

SIPRI once carried a listing of 7 ELINT AC purchased from Israel. The System/AC was called Lancer if i rememebr correctly . Maybe its the same?

anybody has specs on this?

However i would like India operating something along the lines as UK Nimrods

http://images.pennnet.com/articles/mae/ ... news03.jpg

Or American RiveTJoints In the Dedicated LR ELINT role.

http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/ ... 209191.JPG

sum · Post by **sum** » 31 Jul 2008 10:08

SIPRI once carried a listing of 7 ELINT AC purchased from Israel. The System/AC was called Lancer if i rememebr correctly . Maybe its the same?

Do these purchases turn up under annual defence budget?
If not, it means the fleet of ARC is a mystery and is much better than the sad picture of aging Cheetahs/Avros/Chetaks/Mi-8s being the sole fleet of ARC that wiki and other sources project....

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 31 Jul 2008 11:05

rkhanna wrote:However i would like India operating something along the lines as UK Nimrods
Or American RiveTJoints In the Dedicated LR ELINT role.

There are a few B-707s listed with the ARC for "communications and training"

purposes. Don't see why they would not be equipped for the above roles. However, not sure if those have been phased out by now given their age...

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 31 Jul 2008 11:22

sum wrote:
SIPRI once carried a listing of 7 ELINT AC purchased from Israel. The System/AC was called Lancer if i rememebr correctly . Maybe its the same?
Do these purchases turn up under annual defence budget?
If not, it means the fleet of ARC is a mystery and is much better than the sad picture of aging Cheetahs/Avros/Chetaks/Mi-8s being the sole fleet of ARC that wiki and other sources project....

As far as I know, the above is a large underestimation of the ARC's assets. Last time I checked (and that was some time ago so might be dated), the ARC had the likes of a single IL-76 (still not sure whether it was combined IAF/ARC or just the latter), B-707s and even a Gulfstream (now damaged beyond repair) dedicated to such Ops in addition to the types you mentioned above.

Of course, corrections are always welcome.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 31 Jul 2008 14:57

vivek, are you sure there were not more than one GS in the ARC ? I'll have to hunt old docs but I
vaguely remember there were about 2-3.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 31 Jul 2008 15:16

http://www.spyflight.co.uk/IVsp.htm

The Indian Air Force operates a single Gulfstream III SRA , registered as VT-ENR, for ELINT duties. The aircraft is usually based at Palam Air Force Station and is targeted almost exclusively against Pakistan.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 01 Aug 2008 05:33

Rahul M wrote:vivek, are you sure there were not more than one GS in the ARC ? I'll have to hunt old docs but I
vaguely remember there were about 2-3.

You are right

There are atleast two 'L' Numbered IAI Astras.
Then there is Gulfstream K2961 http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=1220458&r=y
and Gulfstrea VT-ENR http://myaviation.net/search/photo_sear ... ize=medium

The two Boeing 707s can be see at Palam. One of them certainly had not flown for a long time. The other flew into Palam from somewhere in the last five years

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&t ... 01369&z=17

One of which is seen here in IAF colors
http://bp2.blogger.com/_jpRroRLCaYc/R_X ... _05916.JPG

ARC always had two Il-76s in its section besides the smaller aircraft.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 01 Aug 2008 06:37

VT is civilian registration right ? why should an IAF bird carry a civilian registration ? or is it that ARC owns this one ? also, does ARC train it's own pilots or are they deputed from IAF ? in case they are deputed, do they become ARC pilots for life or is there a max period ?

is all this info c******** ? I hope not !

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 01 Aug 2008 07:10

Rahul, I dont think the IAF owns the gulfstreams or any of the other ac. The total control lies with ARC IIRC.

Pilots used to be deputed from the IAF on stints. I believe almost all of them were from Transport or Helicopter streams (atleast when there were helicopters).

that policy may still be continuing.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Aug 2008 08:24

the 707s can't be in flying shape. looked ready for junkyard when I saw them at palam
a decade ago!
so it must be the legacy, gulfstreams and IL76 doing the comint job now.

sum · Post by **sum** » 01 Aug 2008 09:04

What prevents us from buying replacements for the 707s( maybe 747s) now that we are supposed to be best pals with Unkil? Surely budget is not cited as a constraint!!??

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Aug 2008 09:42

there are tons of 737 and A320 for sale. no need to go to Unkil. we should be able to fit
our own gear - the IL76 would be having mostly domestic and israeli kit methinks.
comint efforts need stepping up against PRC and electronic orbats constantly updated.
perhaps EMB-145 more of them is the soln. just the right size and economical to fly.

asbchakri · Post by **asbchakri** » 01 Aug 2008 10:01

Singha wrote:there are tons of 737 and A320 for sale. no need to go to Unkil. we should be able to fit
our own gear - the IL76 would be having mostly domestic and israeli kit methinks.
comint efforts need stepping up against PRC and electronic orbats constantly updated.
perhaps EMB-145 more of them is the soln. just the right size and economical to fly.

I dont think Airbus would not have any problem seeling to us anything. Also wont it be better if we use IL76 the same as for Phalcon so that we would have a commonality for maintainance not to mention Price, which would be less tahn teh Western planes which gives us an option to buy more than one platform. Just my thoughts

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 01 Aug 2008 10:43

Jagan wrote:Then there is Gulfstream K2961 http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=1220458&r=y
and Gulfstrea VT-ENR http://myaviation.net/search/photo_sear ... ize=medium

Jagan,

Most outside sources claim the presence of only one Gulfstream within the ARC. Apparently, one Gulfstream was written off in a hanger collapse at Charbatia sometime last year, and was said to be damaged beyond repair. Not sure which of the above two it was, but possibly VT-ENR. It might be possible that K2961 is a replacement for the lost machine. Notice the clealy visible structural changes on K2961 as opposed to VT-ENR, as also the newer look on the aircraft itself, suggesting perhaps a newer machine.

ARC always had two Il-76s in its section besides the smaller aircraft.

So were these two IL-76 aircraft in addition to the IAF 24 machines?

-Vivek

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 01 Aug 2008 10:45

Jagan wrote:Pilots used to be deputed from the IAF on stints. I believe almost all of them were from Transport or Helicopter streams (atleast when there were helicopters).

that policy may still be continuing.

In addition, I think they also take in a lot of retired (voluntary or otherwise), experienced IAF personnel IIRC.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 01 Aug 2008 17:37

vivek_ahuja wrote:
ARC always had two Il-76s in its section besides the smaller aircraft.
So were these two IL-76 aircraft in addition to the IAF 24 machines?

-Vivek

I think they were loaned from the IAF and not extra machines.

PaulJI · Post by **PaulJI** » 01 Aug 2008 18:03

asbchakri wrote:
Singha wrote:there are tons of 737 and A320 for sale. no need to go to Unkil. we should be able to fit
our own gear - the IL76 would be having mostly domestic and israeli kit methinks.
comint efforts need stepping up against PRC and electronic orbats constantly updated.
perhaps EMB-145 more of them is the soln. just the right size and economical to fly.
I dont think Airbus would not have any problem seeling to us anything. Also wont it be better if we use IL76 the same as for Phalcon so that we would have a commonality for maintainance not to mention Price, which would be less tahn teh Western planes which gives us an option to buy more than one platform. Just my thoughts

What do you mean by the highlighted section?

Il-76 is very expensive to operate compared to an A320 or Boeing 737, even a pre-NG 737. Used airliners should be cheaper than an Il-76, & the easy life, compared to airline use, they'd get in an elint or comint AF role would mean they'd last a very long time. For A320 or 737, the commercial availability of parts & qualified maintenance personnel is such that commonality is not an issue. There are probably as many of either in service than the combined transport fleets of the worlds air forces.

asbchakri · Post by **asbchakri** » 01 Aug 2008 18:34

PaulJI wrote:
asbchakri wrote: I dont think Airbus would not have any problem seeling to us anything. Also wont it be better if we use IL76 the same as for Phalcon so that we would have a commonality for maintainance not to mention Price, which would be less tahn teh Western planes which gives us an option to buy more than one platform. Just my thoughts
What do you mean by the highlighted section?

Il-76 is very expensive to operate compared to an A320 or Boeing 737, even a pre-NG 737. Used airliners should be cheaper than an Il-76, & the easy life, compared to airline use, they'd get in an elint or comint AF role would mean they'd last a very long time. For A320 or 737, the commercial availability of parts & qualified maintenance personnel is such that commonality is not an issue. There are probably as many of either in service than the combined transport fleets of the worlds air forces.

I just was telling unlike Unkil they would not put any restrictions thats all

Apparently you r right about the IL76 thing. thanks

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 02 Aug 2008 23:50

NPO Saturn starts testing AL-55I engines with MiG-AT
On July 28 in the town of Zhukovsky (Moscow region) NPO Saturn began flight testing a new engine AL-55I on Russian training aircraft MiG-AT. The programs first phase of testing includes 30 test flights. First test flight of MiG-AT was equipped with two engines, i.e, AL-55I and French Larzac engine. NPO Saturn release says that the AL-55I confirmed the technical parameters and demonstrated excellent handling. During the 31 minute flight, the engine AL-55I powered the aircraft to a height of 3000 metres, and the maximum speed is 610 km / h.

AL-55I is a double twin-engine turbo-jets with subsonic fixed convergent nozzle

Engine AL-55I is created for the Indian corporation HAL for its training aircraft IJT-36, on August 1, 2005. The delay of Al-55I engine development has set back the faster induction of IJT-36. The engine license produced in India.

The successful implementation AL-55 family engine may result in MiG-AT in future.

PaulJI · Post by **PaulJI** » 03 Aug 2008 01:37

asbchakri wrote:I just was telling unlike Unkil they would not put any restrictions thats all

I think you're right.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Aug 2008 07:18

Does anyone have information on the following questions:

1) How many Indian Air Force airfields have maintenance facilities for the Il 76
2) How many Indian Air Force airfields have maintenance facilities for other large aircraft like the Boeing 707 or Airbus
3) How many trained maintenance personnel the IAF already has for the IL 76
4) How many personnel and new airfield facilities will the IAF have to create if they went for an ad hoc change to an Airbus or

any decrepit 707s that still exist - to b operated in parallel with exiting Il 76s
5) What is the short field performance of the Airbus versus the Il 76
6) What is the rough-field performance of Airbus versus Il 76
7) How many maintenance facilities exist for Airbus in civilan facilities in India and what level fo maintenance can be done - i.e under what conditions would an Airbus have to fly out of India for routine repair/maintenance.

If some of these things can be addressed satisfactorily sure an Airbus can be used instead of the Il 76.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Aug 2008 09:28

being platinum grade assets like phalcon, the ARC birds (il76/a321/737) need not jump around
all over the place. two major bases in central or south india with overhaul facility is all
they'd need. could land in a place like srinagar or tezpur , top up with fuel, perform the
mission and fly directly home. a loaded 737-800 type has a endurance of 6+ hrs at
cruising speed, so thats a ample margin.

engine or avionics repair can be outsourced to one of the repair facilities coming up in
India under offset clauses & investments for both boeing (nagpur) and airbus (blr?).
a simple guard detail and locked up passenger area will ensure security. or IAF can
fund its own hanger there.

rrao · Post by **rrao** » 03 Aug 2008 11:27

A new HAL division will be coming up in the state of Kerala, obviously a gift to the keralites by RM. The place is near Mangalore.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Aug 2008 12:38

Singha wrote:being platinum grade assets like phalcon, the ARC birds (il76/a321/737) need not jump around
all over the place. two major bases in central or south india with overhaul facility is all
they'd need. could land in a place like srinagar or tezpur , top up with fuel, perform the
mission and fly directly home. a loaded 737-800 type has a endurance of 6+ hrs at
cruising speed, so thats a ample margin.

engine or avionics repair can be outsourced to one of the repair facilities coming up in
India under offset clauses & investments for both boeing (nagpur) and airbus (blr?).
a simple guard detail and locked up passenger area will ensure security. or IAF can
fund its own hanger there.

Yes - but everything is already in place right now for the Il 76. No need to do anything new. If a new platform is planned - it can be planned for a complete replacement along with the Il 76 - which will remain in service for more than a decade. A decade is a long time for avionics but a short time for a platform. We need the avionics without playing around with platforms. The IAF has gone in for the Il 76 for transport, refuelling and AEW. To me there appear to be no good reasons for changing the platform for one role.

If CABS new stuff works well - perhaps it can be fitted onto a totally new platform. But in the case of the CABS stuff - the electronics is still under test. So it is tested on some existing platform.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 03 Aug 2008 13:12

From SIPRI trade Register (search for 1995 onwards)

http://armstrade.sipri.org/arms_trade/t ... gister.php

You get 7 Astra SPX Light transport Ac For ELINT (I earlier said LANCER. sorry its Astra).

^^^ What Aircraft is the above? Is this picture a follow-on order because SIPRI says that those 7 ELINT birds were delivered in 1998.

Anybody shed any light on the above

PS. SIPRI also says that India has bought 5 ELTA 2052 AESA radars for 5 LCA prototypes

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Aug 2008 14:42

rkhanna wrote:PS. SIPRI also says that India has bought 5 ELTA 2052 AESA radars for 5 LCA prototypes

have they mentioned AESA ?? if yes, that might mean something has happened that we, in the public domain don't know of.