Indian Military Aviation

[Vick]

From DN
Published: 12 Aug 10:26 EDT (14:26 GMT)

Hawks Built in India Cost Less: Defence Ministry
By vivek raghuvanshi

NEW DELHI - India has built the British Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT) at facilities of state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) at rates nearly 20 percent less than those built by BAE Systems, said a senior Indian Defence Ministry official.

The first HAL-built Hawk is ready for delivery to the Indian Air Force on Aug. 14, the official said, adding that the cost of the HAL-built Hawk is about $14.2 million per aircraft while the Hawks built by BAE cost more than $20.2 million.

As part of a $1.7 billion contract signed between HAL and BAE in 2004, 66 Hawks were to be acquired for the Indian Air Force: 24 would be supplied in fly-away condition and the remaining 42 are to be assembled and license-produced at HAL. The entire project will be executed in eight years.

In June, HAL also bagged an order to build an additional 54 Hawk AJTs for the Navy and the Air Force.

So far, BAE Systems has flown in 12 Hawks to India. The aircraft are stationed at Air Force Station Bidar, in the southern state of Karnataka. All 24 Hawks were to have been delivered by June, but that schedule has been delayed.

[bagha]

A trainer, I believe a Hawk, was doing lots of twists and turns for about half an hour over HAL airport. A couple of times I have seen 4 jags fly simultaneously. But lately if you hear jet engines for a long time, then chances are its the Hawk.

[shiv]

Tell me about it... I don't think it's all LCA... in fact, this afternoon there was a mother of a roar... couldn't make out what it was, what with all the trees near my office

I've been hearing Jags (by far the loudest fighters vis a vis the LCA and the occassional Bison), Tejas's, An-32's and once or twice extremely deep turboprops, haven't gotten a clear glimpse but is it possible that the odd Bear or May has visited namma Bengaluru?

:

The loudest are the Jags - also the most numerous. The LCA has a respectable roar on takeoff, and the MiG 21 a sharp piercing roar. The Hawk is gentle and the IJT almost silent. Mi 17s, ALH Dhruvs and some other helicopters are always buzzing around, with the odd Avro, "hack" Avro and An 32 to add variety. The occasional "loudest of loud" is the Il 76 (and at least once, an Il 78). If I'm at the golf course - my best strokes are when there's a fighter roaring overhead.

[Jaeger]

If I'm at the golf course - my best strokes are when there's a fighter roaring overhead.

Inspiration works in mysterious ways...

But no idea about the big turboprop? I'm convinced 400% onlee, because the sound is so distinctive: a muted roar, with an underlying deep hum that betrays the props... any idea?

[Jaeger]

If I'm at the golf course - my best strokes are when there's a fighter roaring overhead.

Inspiration works in mysterious ways...

But no idea about the big turboprop? I'm convinced 400% onlee, because the sound is so distinctive: a muted roar, with an underlying deep hum that betrays the props... any idea?

JUST NOW!! Just passed over!!! Which one was it? Anyone?

[andy B]

Stop talkin about jets passing over ur offices....I am all the way in melbounre....and have to wait every 3 years for an airshow to see these beauties...u lucky b#$%#$ds....aarrghhhh

I am so moving to Bangalore with the company that I m working with in the next couple of years....

[Singha]

the hawk is quite loud when doing his airshow thing over bellandur lake.

last yr I saw two MKIs and a C-17 landing at HAL. hope this yr brings in a
good crop. there was even a corporate jet (6 seater type) doing sharp fighter
style circuits and bank-to-land things.....no idea why...but maybe executive
travel to Bajaur and FATA needs such skills to avoid talibunny manpads and
he was targeting that high-end segment.

wuff wuff while we wage slaves toil in the salt mines, Shiv seems to spend
a lot of hangtime on the fairways....

[Jaeger]

WRT to the new HAL-built Hawks delivered to the IAF, the build quality (judging from pics in the LCA thread) seems flawless. Even LCA fit and finish is of high standard - [humour] seems the chappal-wearing unprotected SDRE's aren't that lackadaisical after all! [/humour]

[Avinash R]

HAL built Hawk AJT handed over to Indian Air Force
Bangalore | Thursday, Aug 14 2008 IST

The HAWK Mk132 advanced jet trainer, built by the state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) was today handed over to the Indian Air Force.

India had placed an order to buy 66 Hawks in 2004, with 24 of them to be delivered directly by its manufacturer BAE Systems of England, while the rest would be built by the city-based unit of the HAL. BAE has already supplied 14 such aircraft which are stationed at the Air Force Station at Bidar in Karnataka.

Speaking after receiving the aircraft at the HAL airport here from HAL Chairman Ashok K Baweja, Air Force Chief Air Chief Marshal Fali H Major said a long standing desire of the Air Force to have a high end jet trainer had been fulfilled.

The HAL-built Hawk would now be flown directly to Bidar air base and added to the fleet of other jet trainers, he said.

The induction of Hawk trainer enabled us to shift from sub sonic to super sonic jet training. From HPT-32 to Kiran and MIG-21, which was 'less than a satisfactory' arrangement and we were always looking for a suitable operational and transitional aircraft to introduce our pilots to the complexities of combat flying. Hawk would help IAF to provide a smooth transition from a jet trainer to state-of-the-art fighters of the IAF, he said.

Earlier, HAL Chief Test Pilot Sqn Ldr (Rtd) Baldev Singh gave a breathtaking display of the HAL-built Hawk on an overcast and windy day as he flew in and out of the clouds in both vertical and horizontal positions.

[shiv]

HAL Hawk induction pictures from Sanjay Simha
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Image ... /HAL-Hawk/

[shetty]

I don't think this has been posetd yet.

New aircraft for IAF pilot training

New aircraft for IAF pilot training
By
Ravi Sharma
Wednesday, Aug 13, 2008
The Hindu

Qualitative requirements finalised for HPT-32 replacement

Will have an ejection seat

To be acquired along with a simulator

BANGALORE: Having used the piston HPT-32 aircraft made by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) with relative success since 1984, the Air Force is looking for a new machine that will serve as its ab initio trainer.

With this in mind the Air Force has finalised the qualitative requirements for the aircraft to be manufactured by the HAL. It will use the new aircraft for pilot training and other tasks.

Trainees at establishments such as the Air Force Academy in Dundigal (Andhra Pradesh) will first fly this aircraft for 65 hours before they are trifurcated into the fighter, helicopter and transport streams. Of the 65 hours, pilot trainees fly with a trainer for about 14 hours, the rest being solo.
Imported engine

Speaking to The Hindu Air Marshal V. R. Iyer, Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Training Command, said that the new aircraft will have avionics bordering on glass cockpit (the HPT-32 has none), will be powered by a more powerful turbo prop engine (the HPT-32 is powered by a piston engine) and have an ejection seat (the HPT-32 has no such facility and cadets/pilots have to bail out). The engine will be imported.

Most of the improvements will allow cadets to graduate easily from the new basic trainer to the newly inducted Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer and then onto combat aircraft, helicopters or transport planes.

The Air Force expects to have the aircraft by 2013-14 and the numbers could vary between 120 and 140.

Also in keeping with the Air Force’s new policy the aircraft will be acquired along with a simulator enabling cadets to take up a part of their flying training exercises on the ground, thereby saving in time and cost.
Action plan

Official sources in the HAL said that “an action plan for the new aircraft had been drawn up” and that a new trainer could be delivered within the timeframe envisaged by the Air Force.

The HPT-32 or Deepak was developed by the HAL, replacing the two-seat HT-2 basic trainer. Though the first prototype flew in January 1977, followed by the second and third prototypes in March 1979 and July 1981, commercial production started in 1984. Also, though the Air Force’s initial requirement was for 160 HPT-32s, only around 120 were delivered.

The backbone of basic training, the Air Force had a few years ago, after a series of accidents, almost declared the aircraft “too dangerous to fly solo.” The HPT-32s last crash was in May when a 21-year-old trainee pilot Geetika was killed when she was flying solo 55 km from Hyderabad.

[K Mehta]

IIRC there was this HTT-34, which HAL had developed as a follow on to HPT-32 and the IAF rejected. Is this going to be the same, a variant of it or something entirely new?

[Kakkaji]

New aircraft for IAF pilot training

New aircraft for IAF pilot training
Most of the improvements will allow cadets to graduate easily from the new basic trainer to the newly inducted Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer and then onto combat aircraft, helicopters or transport planes.

Then WTH is IJT for?

[Rahul M]

^^^
DDM. they missed the kirans role.

[Jagan]

The Kiran wont do for Basic Training, Too expensive in that role. the ac itself will need to be phased out when the IJTs come in.

My impression was that they are planning to bring in a tucano type of ac to replace the Deepak for basic training.

[Rahul M]

edited.

The Kiran wont do for Basic Training, Too expensive in that role. the ac itself will need to be phased out when the IJTs come in.

which is what I meant !

[A Sharma]

The Chief of Air Staff will be interviewed in a programme ' THE CHIEF'S ON COURSE '. The programme will be telecasted on NDTV Profit at the following timings:
1800 Hrs on 15 Aug 2008
1000 Hrs on 16 Aug 2008
1600 Hrs on 16 Aug 2008
0800 Hrs on 17 Aug 2008
1800 Hrs on 17 Aug 2008

[A Sharma]

First HAL-built Hawk hits skies
India’s foray into military aviation received yet another boost when Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL)-built Advanced Jet Trainer Hawk Mk 132 took to the skies for its first official flight in Bangalore on Thursday.

Later, HAL Chairman Ashok K. Baweja handed over the documents of the machine to Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal F.H. Major. “Induction of Hawk into IAF will help us improve training tremendously,” the air chief said.

The aircraft is the first of 42 Hawk aircraft being built under license by HAL, and is the 15th Hawk advanced jet trainer handed over to the IAF following 14 which have been delivered from BAE Systems in the UK.

India inked a $1.45-billion deal with the UK in 2004 after 18 years of negotiations. BAE is to produce 22 Hawks, while HAL is to build 42 aircrafts at its Bangalore unit.

The aircraft will join the fleet of BAE Systems built Hawks that have recently commenced training the next generation of Indian Air Force pilots at Air Force Station Bidar.

Speaking on the occasion, the Air Chief said that weaponised Dhruv has already been test flown successfully and flight evaluation with weapons is in different stages. Baweja said that HAL would soon set-up a maintenance base at Equador, after the company recently secured an order to supply seven Dhruvs.

“Turkey is through and we are sure of getting some more orders for Dhruvs soon,” he said. The new ALH will be of Mark-III standards with Shakti engine, second-generation cockpit and vibration systems.

Commenting on current projects of HAL, he said that the series production of the Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT) fitted with Russian engines will take place next year after certification and the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) will undergo flight tests by March 2009.

[Paul]

Let's hope HAL does a good job in maintenance and MRO.

LCH sales to these countries will be a breeze to these countries should this happen as the infrastructure will already be there.

[Vipul]

A Sharma,
Trying to contact you.

[Kartik]

The Kiran wont do for Basic Training, Too expensive in that role. the ac itself will need to be phased out when the IJTs come in.

My impression was that they are planning to bring in a tucano type of ac to replace the Deepak for basic training.

Jagan, did you mean an indigenous Tucano type basic trainer or are they planning on purchasing and then licence building a foreign basic trainer?

[Jagan]

afaik they were planning it to be an indigenous design.

[Kartik]

that would be good for HAL and ADA or NAL..is there any program to develop a piston engine for a basic trainer class aircraft or will it be imported?

[sunilUpa]

HAL to make India’s first passenger aeroplane

Bangalore: State-run military plane maker Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, or HAL, will produce India’s first passenger aircraft, after the Indian Air Force, or IAF, chose HAL over private sector companies such as Mahindra Aerospace and Larsen and Toubro Ltd (L&T).
IAF will be the first customer for the 14-seater, multi-role aircraft called Saras, which will be the first passenger plane to be designed and manufactured in the country.

National Aerospace Laboratories, or NAL, the state-run agency for civil aircraft design, was to choose between Mahindra Aerospace and L&T, which had been shortlisted as a manufacturing partner for Saras following a tender in February.
But IAF last month insisted that HAL should make the planes to replace its ageing fleet of German-designed Dornier aircraft, people familiar with the development said on condition of anonymity. HAL had backed out of the Saras project after initial work following differences with NAL.
Test flight: The Saras plane -- named after the Indian crane --is still under development, with two prototypes undergoing flight trials. (PTI)IAF has expressed interest in placing an order for 15 of the 35 Saras aircraft it requires for roles such as transporting VIPs and conducting aerial surveys.
“IAF felt that the (private) industry partners (still) do not have the skills and infrastructure to integrate a full plane,” said one scientist at NAL, who did not want to be identified. “They wanted one (manufacturing partner) who they were already comfortable with.”

[Nayak]

SeigHeil,

I have the latest issue of AFM. Good full page picture of Saras doing a jig over Lincoln City, UK

Awesome two page picture of 4 Dhruvs screaming over the city.

I wish I had a scanner to scan and post it across.

Also Phalcon is undergoing flight tests over israel. The program is back on track and the news of further delays are wrong.

On a sidenote, the saab ereiye of the fizzleya is also undergoing flight tests.

This issue focuses a lot on Awacs.

[neerajb]

that would be good for HAL and ADA or NAL..is there any program to develop a piston engine for a basic trainer class aircraft or will it be imported?

Speaking to The Hindu Air Marshal V. R. Iyer, Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Training Command, said that the new aircraft will have avionics bordering on glass cockpit (the HPT-32 has none), will be powered by a more powerful turbo prop engine (the HPT-32 is powered by a piston engine) and have an ejection seat (the HPT-32 has no such facility and cadets/pilots have to bail out). The engine will be imported.

So it will be an imported turboprop for the new trainer.

Cheers...

[Dhanush]

According to the article today in http://epaper.livemint.com,
HAL plans to open repair hub in Latin America and is expecting more orders for Dhruv.

[Rupak]

afaik they were planning it to be an indigenous design.

At AI 2003, HAL had produced a mock-up for HTT-35 turboprop trainer to replace both the Deepk and Kiran.

I am sure there's a photo floating around somewhere.

[Misraji]

At AI 2003, HAL had produced a mock-up for HTT-35 turboprop trainer to replace both the Deepk and Kiran.

I am sure there's a photo floating around somewhere.

An old post by Aditya@Keypublishing forum had this to say:

This is what Harry mentioned:

HAL HTT-35

HTT-35 is designed to meet the IAF Air Staff Target 208. This details a replacement for both HPT-32 and HJT-16, inferring a requirement for more than 150 aircraft.

Unveiled in mockup form at Avia India 93 (Dec 1993), the HTT-35 is a conventional looking tandem seat low-wing monoplane, with a distinctively hump backed appearance and stepped cockpit covered by separate upward hinging canopies. The retractable tri-cycle undercarriage retracts inwards (main units) and rearwards (nose gear). The pilots will sit on lightweight ejection seats.

HAL hopes to use either the 1150 SHP Garrett TPE-331-12D (flat rated to 11 SHP / 819 KW) or the 1150 SHP P&W Canada PT6A-62 (flat rated to 950 SHP / 707 KW) to power the new aircraft.

Full scale development awaits a government nod, which HAL hopes to receive by Mid-94, leading to the first flight 24 months later.

Performance:

HAL claims a maximum level speed of 290 mph (470 kmph) at Sea Level with a stall speed in approach configuration of 80 mph (127 kmph).

The Take-Off to 50 ft (15 m) is 850 ft (260 m) and landing distance from 50 ft is 1900 ft (580 m). The sea level rate of climb is calculated as 4000 ft (1220 m) per minute, and service ceiling as 29,500 ft (9000 m).

The HTT-35 will be fully aerobatic, with a normal operating load factor of +6 to –3.8 and a fatigue life of 7000 flying hrs.

Weights:

The integral wing and fuselage tanks will carry 450 kg of fuel, with an inverted system allowing upto 30 s inverted flight. This gives a range of 790 miles (1270 km) and allows two high-density aerobatic/spinning sorties to be flown on a single load of fuel.

Underwing hardpoints (stressed for loads of up to 250 kg each allow the carriage of bombs, gun or rocket pods for weapons training of CI duty.

[NRao]

HPT of HTT?

This from 1995:

Delivery of the latest batch of 52 HPT-32 piston-engined trainers will soon end, and the HPT-35 advanced turboprop project is on hold, pending firm interest from the IAF.

[kit]

http://www.tps02a.org/tpsweb/news/Hog_AvWeek_Sniper.htm

just a link to show the capabilities of the sniper targeting pod gifted to Pak for fighting terrorism.I dont know if lantirn 3rd gen in service with IAF comes close to the range or capability

[Kakkaji]

The Kiran wont do for Basic Training, Too expensive in that role. the ac itself will need to be phased out when the IJTs come in.

My impression was that they are planning to bring in a tucano type of ac to replace the Deepak for basic training.

Jagan:

I understand that. My point was that the DDM do not understand the proper sequence of trainers:

(1) Basic Trainer (HPT-32)--> (2) IJT (Kiran)--> (3) AJT (Hawk)--> (4) Combat Trainer (Mig 21)

As an aside, it would be interesting to know how many years, out of the past 60, has IAF had the luxury to be able to train its pilots through the entire 4-step sequence listed above.

I think most of the time we have gone from (1) to (2) to (4).

Now we learn, from the link that was posted about the plan for new basic trainers, that for a while the current basic trainer HPT-32 was suspect in performance and the IAF was close to certifying it as 'not suitable to be flown solo'. That implies they were starting from (2) and going to (4).

If the current plans all fructify, then by 2013 or so the new pilot trainees will have a chance to go through all 4 stages with contemporary aircraft.

[rachel]

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-3963

Mig21FLs havent been phased out yet?

The above article seems to indicate that before these MKIs, we had only 36 Mig 21FLs and 18 Mig27s permanently stationed to counter China.

Two squadrons of MKI are coming ie about 36 planes? So does this imply a possible one for one replacement of the FLs by MKIs in this sector?

I presume the 27s will be retained even after the MKI arrival.

How many Mig21s do we have still left? I heard somewhere there are 250 left. I think there are 125 Bisons.. so would the remaining 125 all be FLs?

[Rahul M]

FLs are with MOFTU IIRC. the MFs are still around.

[neerajb]

http://www.tps02a.org/tpsweb/news/Hog_AvWeek_Sniper.htm

just a link to show the capabilities of the sniper targeting pod gifted to Pak for fighting terrorism.I dont know if lantirn 3rd gen in service with IAF comes close to the range or capability

IAF uses Litening II.

Cheers...

[rkhanna]

^^ The Eurofighter has just been upgraded with the Litening Pod. The Aussis have just bought the Litening AT and is also standard on the Gripen NG.

[Jagan]

Thanks for the info on the HTT guys . That must be it. I remember seeing a line drawing somewhere - perhaps in Vayu.

(1) Basic Trainer (HPT-32)--> (2) IJT (Kiran)--> (3) AJT (Hawk)--> (4) Combat Trainer (Mig 21)

I tried putting decade equivalents and this is what i came up with. Can be corrected

1950s - 1)Tigermoth 2) Harvards 3) Vampires 4) Vampires - Final Posting -> Vampires / Ouragans
1960s - 1)HT-2 2) Harvards 3) Vampires 4) Vampires / Hunters - Final Posting -> Vampires / Hunters
1970s - 1)HT-2 2) Harvards / Kirans 3) Kirans 4) Hunters - Final Posting -> Hunters - MiG-21s
1980s - 1)HPT-32 2) Kirans 3) Iskras 4) Hunters/ MiG-21s - Final Posting -> MiG-21s / Jaguars
1990s - 1)HPT-32 2) Kirans 3) Iskras /Kirans 4) MiG-21s - Final Posting -> MiG-21s / Jaguars

Future - 1)Future HAL Basic Trainer 2) IJT 3) Hawk 4) MiG-21/Jaguar/ Sukhoi

[Arun_S]

India to get network centric capability by 2010-11: Naik

16 Aug, 2008, 1740 hrs IST, PTI
NEVADA : Rubbing shoulders with its counterparts from the US and the NATO in one of the most modern war games, the Indian Air Force (IAF) plans to move rapidly towards developing network centric warfare (NCW) capability in the next few years.

Su-30 MKI supersonic fighter jets, IL-76 heavylift transport aircraft and IL-78 air-to-air refuellers of the IAF are pitted against the NATO F-16s and F-15s in the network-centric operations--the toughest test for flying machines and men--over the Nevada desert in their first appearance in the fortnight-long peace-time air exercise, 'Red Flag' currently in progress.

Being the world's most advanced exercise, 'Red Flag' provides participating air forces the best opportunity to test their mettle in a simulated war game that envisages all air battle scenarios in a network-centric environment.

"NCW is vital. You cannot survive today for long against a good adversary without the NCW capability," said IAF vice chief Air Marshal P V Naik, who was here to witness the IAF participation in 'Red Flag'.

He said the Indian armed forces will have this capability by 2010-2011. "At present we do not have it, we are just about network-enabled. But we are in the process of developing this capability."

The backbone of the IAF's NCW system would be a fibre optic-based network called Air Force Network (AFNET), on which would be riding the Integrated Air Command and Control Systems (IACCS), Naik said. (MORE) PTI Corr NCB VSC SDG 08161641 DEL NNNN

[Arun_S]

Thanks for the info on the HTT guys . That must be it. I remember seeing a line drawing somewhere - perhaps in Vayu.

(1) Basic Trainer (HPT-32)--> (2) IJT (Kiran)--> (3) AJT (Hawk)--> (4) Combat Trainer (Mig 21)

I tried putting decade equivalents and this is what i came up with. Can be corrected

1950s - 1)Tigermoth 2) Harvards 3) Vampires 4) Vampires - Final Posting -> Vampires / Ouragans
1960s - 1)HT-2 2) Harvards 3) Vampires 4) Vampires / Hunters - Final Posting -> Vampires / Hunters
1970s - 1)HT-2 2) Harvards / Kirans 3) Kirans 4) Hunters - Final Posting -> Hunters - MiG-21s
1980s - 1)HPT-32 2) Kirans 3) Iskras 4) Hunters/ MiG-21s - Final Posting -> MiG-21s / Jaguars
1990s - 1)HPT-32 2) Kirans 3) Iskras /Kirans 4) MiG-21s - Final Posting -> MiG-21s / Jaguars

Future - 1)Future HAL Basic Trainer 2) IJT 3) Hawk 4) MiG-21/Jaguar/ Sukhoi

A correction. For few years starting 1983 the AFA pilots were directly trained on Kirans without flying piston powered trainer ever.

[sum]

IA chopper crashes in Leh

JAMMU: Two Army majors and a jawan were killed when a helicopter crashed in eastern Ladakh, a Defence spokesman said here on Saturday. ( Watch )

Lt Col S D Goswami said an Army helicopter with two pilots -- Major Padmanabhan and Major S Ganapathy of the Army Aviation Squadron at Leh -- had taken off on a rescue mission in eastern Ladakh on Friday to evacuate a casualty.

The helicopter lost contact with the air traffic control (ATC) while returning to Leh in bad weather. The wreckage was found near a mountain pass in the eastern Ladakh.

Both the pilots and jawan E Narsaih, who was being evacuated, were killed. The Army has ordered a court of inquiry.

RIP to the three warriors....