IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

kedar.karmarkar · Post by **kedar.karmarkar** » 21 Aug 2008 01:05

Hey Vishnu -
I am headed out there, this week. Will see you there.

B/R
Kedar

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Aug 2008 02:47

Vishnu, don't tell us you are getting another of those precious rides!!!!

envy you

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Aug 2008 07:07

Vishnu wrote:Hello Folks ... I am at Red Flag for this week. You will see a documentary on this soon. No questions just yet pls. Just a heads up.

Cheers
Vishnu Som
Associate Editor and Senior Anchor
NDTV

Please don't forget to put up the broadcast date/time here.

I watch little TV unless it is something like this.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Aug 2008 07:10

Jagan wrote:
40 images from Kedar Karmakar

Good.

In the longterm - it's the people pictures that will remain more valuable than the machince pics which are admittedly lovely.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Aug 2008 07:19

A minor data point. About a year or so ago, there was, on this forum a discussion resulting from confusion as to what afterburner nozzles do when the burner is on versus when the burner is off. The right answer is of course that the nozzles are wide open when the afterburner kicks in.

This is illustrated beautifully in the Su 30 takeoff and landing pics. The primus stove (blue afterburner flame in the ass with wide open nozzles) at take off versus closed (narrow) nozzles when the engine is throttled back for manding

Take off (the primus)
http://media.bharat-rakshak.com/31386-1 ... u30mki.jpg

Landing pic from Kedar Karmarkar
http://media.bharat-rakshak.com/31557-2 ... 036130.jpg

kedar.karmarkar · Post by **kedar.karmarkar** » 21 Aug 2008 08:13

shiv wrote:
Jagan wrote:
40 images from Kedar Karmakar
Good.

In the longterm - it's the people pictures that will remain more valuable than the machince pics which are admittedly lovely.

That is true. Thanks, Jagan. I uploaded some yesterday, but guess, the upload did not go though properly, hence uploaded the remaining pics today.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 21 Aug 2008 09:31

kedar, actually we should be the ones to say thanks - for sharing the excellent pictures.

It looks like our media server is taking a beating since these uploads by you and ken yesterday thus it was going offline periodically - but its back up and running now..

kedar.karmarkar · Post by **kedar.karmarkar** » 21 Aug 2008 11:38

my pleasure, Jagan. My smugmug server is also undergoing similar treatment

Hopefully, I will have some more to share after this week.

B/R
Kedar

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 21 Aug 2008 17:32

Surya wrote:Lalmohan

you really think that the USAF was that dumb that they make such rigid assumptions!!!

Trust me at the end of the day - we get to learn a lot more from them.

Its what they themselves said at the time, and a view you'll see repeated by many western 'experts' on air doctrines

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 21 Aug 2008 17:48

Lalmohan

I understand that they say it - but it seemed like you believed it.

Anyway my point was - don't believe a word that comes out.

Surya

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 21 Aug 2008 18:02

Surya wrote:Lalmohan

I understand that they say it - but it seemed like you believed it.

Anyway my point was - don't believe a word that comes out.

Surya

I only believe it to the extent that it was part of the arguement for ensuring the raptor budget does not get cut

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 21 Aug 2008 18:11

Kedar, Vishnu etc

If possible more pictures of Garuds please - (enough pictures of birds

)

If needed hide faces as required.

Kedar

Brilliant pics.

Thanks for sharing with us.
Surya

kedar.karmarkar · Post by **kedar.karmarkar** » 21 Aug 2008 18:54

At least for me - its kind of bleak, since the Garuds go on the transport, which is out of bounds for even the Public Affairs folks here. Anyway let me see what I can do.

Thanks for the kind words.

B/R
Kedar

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Aug 2008 19:04

awesome pics kedar!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Aug 2008 21:07

http://www.nellis.af.mil/shared/media/p ... W-0008.jpg Red Flag provides a peacetime "battlefield" within which U.S. and allied aircrews train to fight, survive and win.

We have joined them under the tag as "allied"!!!. please note.

Ankur · Post by **Ankur** » 21 Aug 2008 23:27

Anyone know what is it on the left wing ?

http://media.bharat-rakshak.com/RedFlag ... 2.jpg.html

Did not look like a missile ?

Thx

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 21 Aug 2008 23:32

Ankur wrote:Anyone know what is it on the left wing ?

http://media.bharat-rakshak.com/RedFlag ... 2.jpg.html

Did not look like a missile ?

Thx

that's a pod which is part of Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation or ACMI.

more about ACMI range in red flag : - http://www.dreamlandresort.com/info/acmi.html

Ankur · Post by **Ankur** » 21 Aug 2008 23:37

Thanks Sid

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 22 Aug 2008 00:02

Sid wrote:
Ankur wrote:Anyone know what is it on the left wing ?

http://media.bharat-rakshak.com/RedFlag ... 2.jpg.html

Did not look like a missile ?

Thx
that's a pod which is part of Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation or ACMI.

more about ACMI range in red flag : - http://www.dreamlandresort.com/info/acmi.html

An ignorant asks--"Can this device hack into the host fighter's mission computer, avionics suite or any other computer controlled unit through the weapons pylons??"

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 22 Aug 2008 02:19

Venkarl wrote:
Sid wrote: that's a pod which is part of Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation or ACMI.

more about ACMI range in red flag : - http://www.dreamlandresort.com/info/acmi.html
An ignorant asks--"Can this device hack into the host fighter's mission computer, avionics suite or any other computer controlled unit through the weapons pylons??"

no dude, these pods (also known as AIS pod (P4A-M)) provides aircraft's position in three-dimensions including all infomation like vector, AoA, G, seeker head look angle etc and relays it to ground monitoring stations. In laymen terms its like viewing the whole airspace in digital form which can be stored, analyzed and used for debriefing. Also helps in confirming the air-kills.

It save millions of dollars as pilots can actually simulate Fox-1 and Fox-2 in air-combat without really getting shot-down

.

These very same equipment were used way back in first Cope-India exercises too. You can easily spot these AIS pods in Su-30K back then.

Also to address you main concern, we Indians are a bit too paranoid. Americans have more to lose then us in terms of technological leakage. What if we are monitoring the frequencies and data-links for F-15's latest radars or AIM-120? Shouldn't they be more paranoid then us?

It is more then likely that they already have the operating frequencies for BARS, if not from us then from Russians them self. Heck they were even ready to sell their last stockpile of SS-22 sunburns and S-300 batteries to them.

EDIT: - Important thing is IAF is closely monitoring the whole exercise, as they plan to develop similar ACMI ranges in India too.

ranganathan · Post by **ranganathan** » 22 Aug 2008 02:46

Stop spouting rubbish. Americans wanted to buy the Kh-35 but the russians refused. Russians will die laughing if americans try to buy S-300 or Sunburn from them.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 22 Aug 2008 02:57

ranganathan, considering the circumstances, you can at least be more civil in your replies.
anyway, after the break up, USA did get some s series gizmos from the CIS nations. I don't remember the details at the moment. I'm sure you know about the migs.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 22 Aug 2008 03:01

The Mig-29s they got from east germany after the reunification.

The question is did they got some Su-27s after the CIS breakup? Nevertheless the sudden breakup of the USSR must have been a big security and secrecy blow to the soviets and the Russians, with people and intelligence defecting en-masse. Wonder how they've coped.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 22 Aug 2008 03:08

ranganathan wrote:Stop spouting rubbish. Americans wanted to buy the Kh-35 but the russians refused. Russians will die laughing if americans try to buy S-300 or Sunburn from them.

completely off topic, but i have read it on multiple sources (i can not find any credible link on this for you) that there were negotiations for single battery (which US wanted) but Russians insisted on selling multiple systems which led to its failure.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 22 Aug 2008 03:11

p_saggu, they got some moldovan migs. the east german ones were retained by lufftwaffe for aggressor training IIRC although USAF did have access to those.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 22 Aug 2008 03:22

Sid,

Okay

I agree that I am being paranoid here. Anyways thank you for the clarification, was thinking that the throttle and this tracking device are connected through pylons for recording hits and misses..which might pave way for any sniffing activities on the host fighter's blah blah.....(pure guessing...no concrete knowledge on this

)

Venky

Apologies requested if my post is the cause of the ongoing heated arguments....Lets stick to the topic..its a humble request.

ranganathan · Post by **ranganathan** » 22 Aug 2008 03:24

Rahul M wrote:ranganathan, considering the circumstances, you can at least be more civil in your replies.
anyway, after the break up, USA did get some s series gizmos from the CIS nations. I don't remember the details at the moment. I'm sure you know about the migs.

Yes they got from CIS nations but russia would not sell them anything worthwhile. I am just commenting on the assertion that russia would sell US Kh-22 or S-300. Russia can make a killing selling these to china, iran and syria all the while screwing US and its allies.

nred · Post by **nred** » 22 Aug 2008 04:22

Finally an authoritative news article on what's going on with IAF at Red Flag 08 from Aviation Week. Here is a snippet, please head to the site for full article.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... el=defense

India's Advanced Su-30MKIs Come to USA

Their powerful Russian-made radar was, in fact, emitting, says Choudhry, but operating only in the training mode which limited all its range and spectrum of capabilities. In addition, the IAF wasn't allowed to use chaff and flares to avoid being targeted by surface-to-air missiles nor did its aircraft have the common data link. CDL brings a flow of targeting information into the cockpit displays that improves the accuracy and speed of data transfer and eliminates the need for most communications. The Indian air crews had to rely on voice communications which slowed the process and limited situational awareness.

Despite its limitations, the Su-30MKI's radar was able enough to allow the IAF's Sukhois to participate in a beyond-visual-range fight with U.S. aggressor aircraft carrying simulated AA-10C air-to-air missiles. Because there were so many foreign aircraft capable of offensive counter-air/escort missions (including French Rafales and South Korean F-15Ks), the Sukhois are flying fewer air-to-air missions than Indian team members had hoped, Choudhry says.

"It was almost what we expected," Choudhry says. "Because we couldn't use our chaff and flares, when we were targeted by SAMs we were shot down. And there was no picture in the cockpit to help our situational awareness so the workload on the [aircrews] was very high." Nonetheless, "We came a long way. We trained hard. And the degree of difficulty was not unexpected."

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 22 Aug 2008 04:30

What is CDL. Why don't the Sukhoi's have it? Is it a C4I package?

ranganathan · Post by **ranganathan** » 22 Aug 2008 04:35

CDL=Common data link? I think IAF must have disabled CDL which basically networks the aircrafts so that they can share data.

Ved · Post by **Ved** » 22 Aug 2008 05:45

Sid wrote:
Venkarl wrote:

One fascinating aspect is the diagrammatic depiction of an air sit during a combat debrief - accurate and very enlightening!

Misraji · Post by **Misraji** » 22 Aug 2008 07:48

In addition, the IAF wasn't allowed to use chaff and flares to avoid being targeted by surface-to-air missiles

Strange. What does targetting of sams have to do with chaff and flares?? These are used as a response to sam. Do they "aid" in the targetting of sam???

And there was no picture in the cockpit to help our situational awareness so the workload on the [aircrews] was very high

Lack of "CDL" ?? Are they talking about Link-16 ??

And the degree of difficulty was not unexpected

That is good to know ....

Regards,
Ashish

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Aug 2008 08:28

link16/cdl require some electronics on the a/c like a radio modem, encrypt/decrypt etc...its not something that can just be shoved in.
nato common std a/c have it..as do close allies like soko and singapore
perhaps.

but I wonder why chaff and flares not allowed? I have seen film of red
flag F15E liberally use flares on low level missions.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Aug 2008 09:17

my wild guess - the chaff and sivakasi flares were not FDA certified to be
released into the fragile desert environment. they did take along flares we
saw photo of it being loaded.

kedar.karmarkar · Post by **kedar.karmarkar** » 22 Aug 2008 10:24

Plus, at Boise me and Jake saw flare mis-fires at rotation on couple of the Sukhois. Dont know specifically about RF-N though.

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 22 Aug 2008 19:48

Check ajai sahab's blog

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2008/08/re ... phase.html

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 22 Aug 2008 19:53

Some more news:

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/unc ... 87331.html

“IAF is a world class air force with great aircraft and great leadership. It is a great training opportunity for USAF and IAF to integrate our assets in training environment. We would like to have IAF here as a regular participant,” Captain Marcus ‘Spike’ Wilson of the USAF said from Nellis in his appreciation of team IAF.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 22 Aug 2008 20:11

Nitesh wrote:Check ajai sahab's blog

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2008/08/re ... phase.html

Ajai he says

Thats good ol' Shiv Aroor for you

swapna · Post by **swapna** » 22 Aug 2008 23:40

Ankur wrote:Anyone know what is it on the left wing ?

http://media.bharat-rakshak.com/RedFlag ... 2.jpg.html

Did not look like a missile ?

Thx

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9S-BvFx ... re=related

swapna · Post by **swapna** » 23 Aug 2008 00:05

swapna wrote:
Ankur wrote:Anyone know what is it on the left wing ?

http://media.bharat-rakshak.com/RedFlag ... 2.jpg.html

Did not look like a missile ?

Thx
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9S-BvFx ... re=related

Now Americans have everything they need to develop strategies to fight Su-30.
All those data would be used to develop strategies. What did India gain?