J & K news and discussion

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vina
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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby vina » 27 Aug 2008 13:46

Ah..South Asianitis ..Gotta. Love it. This Pankaj Mishra (no surprise.. another JNU product) just cracks me up. The "world" should take notice of Kashmir, not because it is "South Asia's problem , but will soon be a "world" problem" :rotfl: :rotfl:

The New York Times
Printer Friendly Format Sponsored By

August 27, 2008
Op-Ed Contributor
A Jihad Grows in Kashmir
By PANKAJ MISHRA

New Delhi

FOR more than a week now, hundreds of thousands of Muslims have filled the streets of Srinagar, the capital of Indian-ruled Kashmir, shouting “azadi” (freedom) and raising the green flag of Islam. These demonstrations, the largest in nearly two decades, remind many of us why in 2000 President Bill Clinton described Kashmir, the Himalayan region claimed by both India and Pakistan, as “the most dangerous place on earth.”

Mr. Clinton sounded a bit hyperbolic back then. Dangerous, you wanted to ask, to whom? Though more than a decade old, the anti-Indian insurgency in Kashmir, which Pakistan’s rogue intelligence agency had infiltrated with jihadi terrorists, was not much known outside South Asia. But then the Clinton administration had found itself compelled to intervene in 1999 when India and Pakistan fought a limited but brutal war near the so-called line of control that divides Indian Kashmir from the Pakistani-held portion of the formerly independent state. Pakistan’s withdrawal of its soldiers from high peaks in Indian Kashmir set off the series of destabilizing events that culminated in Pervez Musharraf assuming power in a military coup.

After 9/11, Mr. Musharraf quickly became the Bush administration’s ally. Seen through the fog of the “war on terror” and the Indian government’s own cynical propaganda, the problem in Kashmir seemed entirely to do with jihadist terrorists. President Musharraf could even claim credit for fighting extremism by reducing his intelligence service’s commitment to jihad in Kashmir — indeed, he did help bring down the level of violence, which has claimed an estimated 80,000 lives.

Since then Pakistan has developed its own troubles with Muslim extremists. Conventional wisdom now has Pakistan down as the most dangerous place on earth. Meanwhile, India is usually tagged as a “rising superpower” or “capitalist success story” — clichés so pervasive that they persuaded even so shrewd an observer as Fareed Zakaria to claim in his new book “The Post-American World” that India since 1997 has been “stable, peaceful and prosperous.”

It is true that India’s relations with Pakistan have improved lately. But more than half a million Indian soldiers still pursue a few thousand insurgents in Kashmir. While periodically holding bilateral talks with Pakistan, India has taken for granted those most affected by the so-called Kashmir dispute: the four million Kashmiri Muslims who suffer every day the misery and degradation of a full-fledged military occupation.

The Indian government’s insistence that peace is spreading in Kashmir is at odds with a report by Human Rights Watch in 2006 that described a steady pattern of arbitrary arrest, torture and extrajudicial execution by Indian security forces — excesses that make the events at Abu Ghraib seem like a case of high spirits. A survey by Doctors Without Borders in 2005 found that Muslim women in Kashmir, prey to the Indian troops and paramilitaries, suffered some of the most pervasive sexual violence in the world.

Over the last two decades, most ordinary Kashmiri Muslims have wavered between active insurrection and sullen rage. They fear, justifiably or not, the possibility of Israeli-style settlements by Hindus; reports two months ago of a government move to grant 92 acres of Kashmiri land to a Hindu religious group are what provoked the younger generation into the public defiance expressed of late.

As always, the turmoil in Kashmir heartens extremists in both India and Pakistan. India has recently suffered a series of terrorist bombings, allegedly by radicals among its Muslim minority. Hindu nationalists have already formed an economic blockade of the Kashmir Valley — an attempt to punish seditious Muslims and to gin up votes in next year’s general elections. In Pakistan, where weak civilian governments in the past sought to score populist points by stirring up the emotional issue of Kashmir, the intelligence service can only be gratified by another opportunity to synergize its jihads in Kashmir and Afghanistan.

What of the Kashmiris themselves, who have repeatedly found themselves reduced to pawns in the geopolitical games and domestic politics of their neighbors? In 1989 and ’90, when few Kashmiris had heard of Osama bin Laden, hundreds of thousands of Muslims buoyed by popular revolutions in Eastern Europe regularly petitioned the United Nations office in Srinagar, hoping to raise the world’s sympathy for their cause. Indian troops responded by firing into many of these largely peaceful demonstrations, killing hundreds of people and provoking many young Kashmiris to take to arms and embrace radical Islam.

A new generation of politicized Kashmiris has now risen; the world is again likely to ignore them — until some of them turn into terrorists with Qaeda links. It is up to the Indian government to reckon honestly with Kashmiri aspirations for a life without constant fear and humiliation. Some first steps are obvious: to severely cut the numbers of troops in Kashmir; to lift the economic blockade on the Kashmir Valley; and to allow Kashmiris to trade freely across the line of control with Pakistan.

India’s record of pitiless intransigence does not inspire much hope that it will take these necessary steps toward the final and comprehensive resolution of Kashmir’s long-disputed status. In fact, an indefinite curfew has already been imposed and Indian troops have again killed dozens of demonstrators. But a brutal suppression of the nonviolent protests will continue to radicalize a new generation of Muslims and engender a fresh cycle of violence, rendering Kashmir even more dangerous — and not just to South Asia this time.

Pankaj Mishra is the author, most recently, of “Temptations of the West: How to Be Modern in India, Pakistan, Tibet and Beyond.”

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Rupesh » 27 Aug 2008 13:54

vina wrote:Ah..South Asianitis ..Gotta. Love it. This Pankaj Mishra (no surprise.. another JNU product) just cracks me up. The "world" should take notice of Kashmir, not because it is "South Asia's problem , but will soon be a "world" problem" :rotfl: :rotfl:



We should start a new jholawala, commie, DDM thread :mrgreen:

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby SSridhar » 27 Aug 2008 15:17

Bharati wrote:Jammu on high alert; militants kill five

Terrorists kill armyman, take 3 kids hostage
Our worst fears have come true.


We, at BRf, have been predicting this turn of events. This is not the time to even talk about such predictions. I hope the children are freed harmlessly. However, the fact remains that once 'peace deals' were stuck, the Army was withdrawn from FATA, there was a visible thinning of Punjabi Taliban among the ranks of the Pakistani Taliban and the Pakistani jihadi terrorist organizations started to resurface one-by-one we knew what will happen to India. Bangalore & Ahmedabad, though Indian terrorists were involved, are still coordinated by ISI. The ratcheting up of Kashmir was the next step. We are in for far severe terrorism in our land now. Civilian rulers in Pakistan have been far more lethal to India than Army rulers.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Lalmohan » 27 Aug 2008 16:18

SSridhar wrote: Civilian rulers in Pakistan have been far more lethal to India than Army rulers.


when civilians pretend to run pakistan, the army has to remind everyone behind the scenes as to who is really in charge... the violence uptick is due to the army, not the civilians. however, they have never condemned it either. either way, its bad for india

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby enqyoob » 27 Aug 2008 16:50

This Pankaj Mishra is not new - it's just been rather quiet for some time since Arundhati was polluting the air enough. Mishra is the author of the infamous "Death In Kashmir" written circa 1999 to support Paki terrorism. Full of whatever he's full of. Let me put it this way: if Arundhoti is U-235 in terms of toxicity, Pankaj Mishra is Pu. Even otherwise his writings are best described as pu.

The Pakis are trying desperately to go to Step 12 of the dictator cycle (War With India), as the dictator's time to the lamppost dwindles. Unfortunately for the Pakis, I can't imagine any provocation that will bring about some real permanent, curative action from the present GOI. Maybe if the terrorists hit certain Swiss Bank lockers, that may be a red line crossed.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby SSridhar » 27 Aug 2008 17:10

Lalmohan wrote:
SSridhar wrote: Civilian rulers in Pakistan have been far more lethal to India than Army rulers.


when civilians pretend to run pakistan, the army has to remind everyone behind the scenes as to who is really in charge... the violence uptick is due to the army, not the civilians. however, they have never condemned it either. either way, its bad for india


Lalmohan, while we all know the backseat-driving by PA, the point is also that the civilians, by themselves, have been disastrous for India. People like ZAB, BB & NS, not to mention a million minions like Mushahid 'Mandela' Hussein, Sheikh Rashid Ahmed, Chaudhry Shujaat et al, have always striven to perform one-up on the PA whenever it was India. No doubt Kashmir, Afghanistan and Nuclear Weapons were strictly 'no go' areas for civilian Prime Ministers of Pakistan, and yet, these PMs did tremendous damage for India with and without the Army.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby sum » 27 Aug 2008 17:11

Unfortunately for the Pakis, I can't imagine any provocation that will bring about some real permanent, curative action from the present GOI. Maybe if the terrorists hit certain Swiss Bank lockers, that may be a red line crossed.

:rotfl:

Going by the looks of our "government"(if one can call it that), that seems to be the only option left!!!!
Question is: how do we get the Pakis to do that deed and not attacking SDREs of the country?

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby G Subramaniam » 27 Aug 2008 17:28

http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/news/news.php?article=14746

Indian Muslims in USA deplores the humanitarian situation in Kashmir;

27-08-2008

Indian Muslim Council - USA:

Indian Muslim Council - USA (IMC-USA), an advocacy group working toward safeguarding India's pluralist and tolerant ethos, strongly condemns the blockade of Kashmir Valley by the Amarnath Yatra Sangharsha Samiti. The economic blockade of the Valley has caused havoc and untold suffering to the civilian population of Kashmir.

According to news reports, Amarnath Yatra Sangharsh Samiti has vowed to extend its strike “chakka jam” till August 31. The Samiti has launched protest strikes since early August forcibly shutting down schools, shops, businesses and public transportation throughout the region creating an economic blockade on Kashmir Valley.

Equally condemnable is the firing by police and armed forces on unarmed civilians. At least 35 people are reported to be killed and hundreds more have been wounded in weeks of protests across the state.

By not taking immediate and stern action against the illegal blockade by Hindu nationalist organizations of the only highway into the Kashmir valley, the government has fueled the separatist sentiments and is alienating the people of Kashmir.

IMC-USA expresses dismay at the mishandling of the land transfer by the government authorities. Maintaining security and peace is the responsibility of the government and so far government attempts are failing. This failure of government will play into the hands of the extremists making conditions more tenuous. IMC-USA demands that the government do not allow the extremists to fan the communal sentiments in Kashmir and the rest of the country.

IMC-USA appeals to all sides to work towards restoring peace and to resolve the current land row by negotiating an amicable solution. The central government should immediately remove the economic blockade and restore normal conditions in the Valley. Appropriate compensation should also be made to the families of the civilians killed in the firing by police and armed forces.

Indian Muslim Council-USA is the largest advocacy organization of Indian Muslims in the United States with 10 chapters across the nation.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby A Arun » 27 Aug 2008 22:03

The terrorist holed up in Jammu reportedly called up Headlines Toady in the evening and gave a live interview. HT reporter Gaurav Sawant did a good job. He asked him "Tum log Pakistan mein bhi aise aurton aur bachon ke peeche chupte thhey kya?" To this the scumbag blabbered "Hum nahi chup rahe, Indian army chup rahi hai". Gaurav Sawant then told him "Buzdili chodo aur bahar jo army khadi hai unse lado".

ramana
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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby ramana » 27 Aug 2008 22:14

Gaurav Sawant is a class by himslef. He wrote a book on Kargil.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Atish » 27 Aug 2008 22:51

A couple of observations:

1. The Indian elite, intellectual, media (including Bollywood), academic and political class have failed to give a cohesive and digestible definition and explanation of nationhood. Partly this due to the maddening aversion to the word Hinduism, which even if not made the basis (IMHO which it shudnt) will definitely be part of this definition. The most sensible method IMHO would be to propogate the values enshrined in the Constitution. Even after Nehru and Indira ravaged it pre 1975 it still is a first class Constitution. When talking of Indianness, unity etc all said actors used nonsensical homilies like "Hindu, Muslim all have red blood" forgetting that this is also true of Russians, Americans et al. So the nationhood is defined by Vasudhaiv Kutumbkam and insaaniyat (in the broader sense), an idea which is antithetical to the Nation State when taken to extremes. This leads to much confusion and wooly headedness, with contradictory axioms, all theories will be silly. The only chap I know who tried to reverse this trend was Nani Palkhivala (God bless the Parsis, the greatest minority any country ever had).

2. The absolute disdain and carelessness with which the Constitution is treated has led the intellegentsia to believe in complete garbage as fact, namely that India is a democracy. By the Grace of God it is not, and any half decent country in the world is a Constitutional Republic or Monarchy. Once you accept that bit of horseshit, Vir Sanghvi et al opinions suddenly seem natural. The tragedy is that in the media, and political class nobody has caught on to this obvious and glaring fallacy.

Cheers.
Atish.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby durvasa » 27 Aug 2008 23:26

It seems that the third muslim terrorist in Jammu has also been converted into manure! All hostages are believed to be safe but not yet confirmed! Great job by IA.

Lucky ********! Did not miss 72 reisins for even one night!

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Singha » 27 Aug 2008 23:32

TV cameras seem to have caught the 2nd guy lurching
out of the door and a hail of bullets from jawans hiding
behind a wall barely a few feet away took him down.
a couple of soldiers were also on the roof.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby jamwal » 27 Aug 2008 23:37

http://www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=464697&sid=nat
Jammu encounter: All 3 militants killed

Jammu, Aug 27: In a fierce encounter with the militants in Chinore on the outskirts of Jammu, the Army managed to gun down all three of the militants holed up inside a house. While four out of the six family members, who were being held hostage in the house by the militants, have been rescued, the fate of the two remaining children is not known.


These militants mnaged to reach outskirts of Jammu city. Thats a worrying fact.
Also did somebody notice presence of any special forces personnle?
aren't they supposed to deal with these kinds of situations?

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Singha » 27 Aug 2008 23:43

maybe now using NSG itself is a anti-secular redline.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Bharati » 27 Aug 2008 23:58

Have the militants been identified? Which group did they belong to? How many of them are still lurking?
Looks like they did not have a definite plan to carry out and probably intended to hang around in Jammu till the others joined them. They seemed to have fired in panic.
Is their live interview published somewhere?

If we retaliate strongly, PA will be shifted to LOC and move the terrorists to India. If we do not, these killings will not stop.
What should be our course of action under these circumstances?

We can never live in peace, as long as pakiland exists.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby satya » 28 Aug 2008 00:06

maybe now using NSG itself is a anti-secular redline.


Each RR batt. in field has a 'QRF' to deal with such situations till re-enforcements arrive to seal the area and together they make sure no terrorists leave the area live.QRF usually is trained to handle such situations so no need to bring in SAG guys 'openly' even if they do operate it wont ever be told in pseudo-sick media.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby sanjaychoudhry » 28 Aug 2008 00:21

'Jammu is treated like a pariah, because we are patriots'

http://specials.rediff.com/news/2008/aug/27sld1.htm

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby sanjaychoudhry » 28 Aug 2008 00:34

Keep It Together
Arif Mohammad Khan
Neither liberalism nor democracy admits ruling people against their will. Democracy is not about ruling people, it is about a periodic selection of a group, by the people, for exercising power on their behalf for a defined time-frame.

I think it is unfair to describe Kashmir's relationship with the rest of India in terms of colonialism of a hue different from the classic one or to compare it with Junagadh, the tiny Muslim state in Gujarat, that had acceded to Pakistan but later integrated with India.

As far as Kashmir is concerned, the Maharaja had signed a standstill agreement with Pakistan on August 15, 1947, that the "existing arrangements should continue pending settlement of details and execution of a fresh agreement". The Maharaja had approached India also but received no positive response.

The Indian attitude can be judged from what V P Menon has written in the 'Integration of States': "We wanted time to examine its implications. We left the state alone. I for one had simply no time to think of Kashmir".

But despite the agreement Pakistan imposed economic blockade on Kashmir to bring pressure on the Maharaja to accede to Pakistan. In October it organised an invasion of Kashmir by army regulars in the guise of tribals.

The invaders entered Muzaffarabad on October 22, 1947 and indulging in a spree of loot and arson reached Baramulla on October 27. They created such mayhem that out of the 14,000 people of this predominantly Muslim town, only 3,000 survived.

This situation forced the Maharaja to dispatch his envoy to Delhi requesting aid on October 24, but India made it clear that Indian troops could be sent only to an area that was part of India, and Kashmir could do so by signing the instrument of accession.

The Indian troops landed in Srinagar on October 27 only after the Maharaja had duly signed the accession instrument. Sheikh Abdullah, who was present in Delhi, also endorsed the request for Indian assistance with accession.

The important question is who resisted the invaders for five days till Indian help arrived. This question has been best answered by T N Dhar, a long-time critic of Sheikh Abdullah. He has written: "The National Conference leaders considered it a breach of trust and a challenge to the self-respect of Kashmiris and since the organisation was deeply entrenched at the grass-root level... the entire population was electrified with repulsion for Pakistan". Not just National Conference volunteers, the entire population stood up against the Pakistani invaders and supported Kashmir's accession to India.

On the other hand in Junagadh, before independence, the nawab repeatedly expressed solidarity with the surrounding Kathiawar states and on April 22, 1947, the official Gazette of Junagadh reproduced a speech of the Junagadh prime minister categorically repudiating allegations that Junagadh was thinking of joining Pakistan. The constitutional adviser of the nawab informed Mountbatten that he had advised the ruler to accede to India.

However, on August 15, 1947, Junagadh, a state that had no common boundary with Pakistan, announced accession to Pakistan under the advice of the new prime minister who was a member of the Muslim League. After receiving this information the government of India sent a note to Pakistan on August 21, explaining that India found it necessary to consult the views of Junagadh's population and asking for an indication of Pakistan's policy in this matter.

Further, on September 12, a telegram was sent to Pakistan stating that India would abide by the verdict of the people of Junagadh. The only reply that India received the next day was that Pakistan had accepted the accession of Junagadh.

It is true that India had stationed troops outside Junagadh, but it did not intervene militarily. It is important to remember that there were autonomous states inside Junagadh, which had already announced their accession to India and asked for Indian protection.

It was not the military action by India but a popular uprising against the nawab that forced him to flee to Pakistan by the end of October. Later, the prime minister of Junagadh wrote to Jinnah explaining the difficulties of Junagadh and through another communique requested the government of India to take over the administration, which was done on November 9, 1947.

Pakistan wanted to have Kashmir because it had a Muslim majority and Hyderabad, Junagadh and Manadar because the rulers in these states were Muslims. But the people of these states were against acceding to Pakistan and hence they became part of India.

The boundaries of a country are not drawn everyday to pacify one agitating group here or there. Pakistan could survive as a nation and as an idea even after losing Bangladesh because it was created on the basis of a divisive ideology. On the other hand, India can survive as a nation but not as an idea if it allows another partition on the basis of religion. India is more than a country; it is an idea that must be defended and protected at all costs.

(The writer is a former Union minister)


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Opin ... 413795.cms

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby jamwal » 28 Aug 2008 01:22

http://www.jammumatters.com/truth-about-kishtwar.html

The truth about Kishtwar

We wanted to write a thought provoking article about the events in Kishtwar. We had asked some concerned residents of Kishtwar to give us some facts about the events as well as the background to why these happened. What we got was a shock.

It was a story of conspiracy and connivance, of calculated and malicious attempts to repeat the 1990 events of Kashmir and of the shut eye approach of the powers that be. We have decided not to put up the story. Some truths are better left unsaid.


THIS PAGE HAS RECEIVED THE MAXIMUM HITS. WE HAVE ALSO RECEIVED THE MAXIMUM EMAILS ABOUT THIS INCIDENT. The events in Poonch have led us to believe that there is a sytematic attempt to repeat the events of Kishtwar where ever the separtists have made inroads. To counter this will be the duty of every nationalist citizen. We are posting below the unedited email received from a lady from Kishtwar. You decide!

Open vandalism for more than six hours and use of arms by rioters was shocking

Open vandalism and use of arms by the rioters of majority community mostly those having faith in the ideology of anti India and pro Pak in presence of Indian administration and so called Jammu and Kashmir police where as has come as a shock for minority Hindus community putting up in this mountainous township and has forced them to rethink about Indian so called secularism and so called democracy which every time left them house less and has to scarified their lives for protecting nationalism here .
“The worst ever communal riots in the town of Kishtwar few days back has exposed the game plan of such Militants organizations and political groups like PDP , National conference and Hurriyat who openly advocates for Azadi and pro Pakistani in front of Indian government and Army as both remain mute spectator giving plea that they have no powers to stop them from doing so . “The two incidents of grenade attacks on the minority community in the twin districts of Doda and Kishtwar prove that minority community is no more safe here.”
It is in place to mention here that last month in Bhaderwah town some youth tried to lob a grenade on a procession of minority community who were peacefully protesting for revocation of Amaranth land order which exploded in the hand of the grenade thrower, injuring him and several others.
The people of minority mostly women and children “who were holding a peaceful demonstration when they came under attack. Miscreants accompanied by upper ground workers of militants and some of there supporters in administration and Police were openly seen brandishing arms just before clashes broke out.
The miscreants and anti national elements having shield of administration openly came on roads shouting pro azadi and anti Indian slogans and after paying tribute to hurriyat leader who was killed in a firing at Kashmir struck at the houses and shops of minority community in Kishtwar and burnt dozens after openly looting them in presence of police despite curfew imposed in the area . “What was more shocking for minorities was that gunpowder was used to set the houses on fire.
Pro Azadi and Pak supporters openly came out from lanes and streets and started firing in air and announcements from local mosques appealing youth to come outside and eliminate minorities .
“Police instead of controlling the armed mob was backing them when they resorted to arson and bloodshed,”
Ironically instead of investigating the matter and booking the culprits police easily blamed Minority community for the incident. “The statement of a top police official particularly SSP kishtwar that grenades were being carried by some Hindus youth was shocking . After police such aim behind in nexus with anti nationalist some local youths has fled kishtwar and are underground as police has involved them in murder and other cases to appease majority community under a hatched conspiracy to force migration of minorities from area .We cannot be just mute spectators to such an injustice and we will launch agitation on a large scale in case the police fails to book all those responsible for the cold blooded murder and arson.”

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Bharati » 28 Aug 2008 03:14

TOI reports 3 hostages are dead.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Sridhar » 28 Aug 2008 04:28

There seems to be no clarity about the state of the hostages. There were initial reports that the fate of the hostages is unknown (why should that be case if all the militants have been killed and the house has been entered?). Then ToI reports that three adult hostage were killed (which means all three adults) but that children were safe. Now IBN, on its website, says that 3 hostages, including 2 children were killed. I have also read reports suggesting that one or perhaps even two adults escaped during the day. If there were 7 hostages to begin with, there cannot be three dead hostages if one or more of them escaped earlier.

What the hell is going on? Why are there such disparate reports? Is it because of DDM or is it because of the lack of clear communications from the officials? If the former, there is nothing to do except whine about the media. If the latter, it betrays once again the importance of communication and the woeful failure of our public authorities in this regard. In a situation like this, one cannot let rumors and hearsay rule the roost. Clear communication leads to less panic and can save lives. It can also increase the effectiveness of the response to incidents such as this.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby G Subramaniam » 28 Aug 2008 04:36

Mukul kesavan wants to give liberation to kashmir

http://telegraphindia.com/1080828/jsp/o ... 751557.jsp

THE TROUBLE WITH EDEN
- Kashmir offers a choice between two compromised ideals
Mukul Kesavan

I’ve never been to Kashmir. I nearly went in 1987 to Srinagar; there’s a guesthouse there that used to be owned by Grindlays Bank, where I was meant to stay, but then the troubles began and I stayed home. The closest I came to living in Kashmir was living in Kashmiri Gate, a neighbourhood in north Delhi where the walled city ended and the Civil Lines began. There’s a cinema hall there called the Ritz, where, in the early Sixties, I saw visions of Kashmir in films like Kashmir Ki Kali. Those were the years when Bombay cinema specialized in houseboat and hill-station idylls and in these films Kashmir often stood in for Eden.

Delhi was a Jan Sangh city then; Atal Bihari Vajpayee was a promising local politician. Growing up in Kashmiri Gate, I wasn’t especially political but I knew that Jan Sanghis blamed Nehru for Kashmir’s disputed status. If he hadn’t agreed to a plebiscite, or if he had allowed Indians from outside Kashmir to settle there, or if he hadn’t made the fatal mistake of Article 370, which gave Jammu and Kashmir a special status within the Union, if he hadn’t indulged Sheikh Abdullah… if he hadn’t done all of this, we wouldn’t be wrestling with secessionism and sedition in Kashmir.

For most of us who, like me, have no first-hand experience of Kashmir, the troubles in the Valley are, for the most part, a series of off-stage noises. Our governors, or more precisely, our proconsuls, sometimes become famous for making bad things worse, wars and skirmishes emblazon names like Kargil on our collective consciousness, newsworthy violence like the purging of Kashmiri Pandits from the valley or the brutalization of Kashmiri Muslims by the security forces surfaces in the newspapers and news channels, and then there are long periods of absent-mindedness when Kashmir disappears and these are the times when it’s deemed to be calm or inching towards normalcy. Wise men, in these interludes, talk on television about commerce being the key to peace. Tourism’s up, they say hopefully. Then the valley erupts and half-forgotten names like Hurriyat and Malik and Geelani and Farooq flicker in our heads.

This latest eruption, though, has provoked a set of unusual reactions. The enormous popular mobilization in the Valley after General Sinha, our last governor, stirred the pot by allotting a large plot of land to the Amarnath Shrine Board, and after the security forces, predictably enough, killed Kashmiri Muslims in the demonstrations that followed, has prompted mainstream journalists like Vir Sanghvi and Swaminathan Aiyar to write opinion pieces arguing that India should seriously consider letting Kashmir go. Arundhati Roy, who was present at the enormous rally, made the same point more forcefully, arguing that the pro-Pakistan slogans or the distinctly Islamic idiom of the azadi vanguard, ought not to distract us from the fact that India has no right to hold the Valley’s Muslims against their will. The routes by which these writers came to their conclusions are different, but the conclusion is the same: that the time has come to think the unthinkable: an azad Kashmir, or even the prospect of Kashmir becoming part of Pakistan.

Are they right? Should Indian liberals and democrats endorse self-determination for Kashmir? Or is it possible to hold another position: can a liberal oppose azadi in Kashmir in good faith? One way of exploring this is to make dhobi lists of the pros and cons of Kashmiri self-determination.

The case for self-determination is contained in the term itself. If we accept that the two hundred thousand Kashmiris who came out to protest against Indian rule, to shout for liberty, to invoke the ideal of an Islamic state, to press the case for union with Pakistan, are representative of Kashmir’s Muslim population, then pressing India’s claim to Kashmir with guns and bayonets is a violent negation of their collective will. It’s hard for a liberal or a democrat to defend that position. No matter how violently you disagree with their ideas, or how convinced you are of Pakistani mischief and instigation, given the violence the Indian state has inflicted on Kashmiris, it’s hard to argue that India is entitled to the benefit of the doubt. Kashmiri alienation is now of such long standing and the Indian state’s interventions in Kashmir have been characterized by such unscrupulousness and such ruthless violence that touting India’s virtues as a secular, democratic state, which Kashmiris should be glad to be part of, feels like a sick joke.

But there is a case against self-determination which needs to be made, if only to clarify the consequence of endorsing self-determination. Self-determination isn’t in itself virtuous. The Tamils in Sri Lanka, led by Velupillai Prabhakaran have been fighting a civil war for decades to achieve a separate state, Tamil Eelam. Tamils have suffered violence at the hands of Sinhala chauvinists and discrimination from the Sri Lankan state, which, in the Sixties, defined itself as a hegemonically Buddhist, Sinhalese entity. I know of very few people outside of Prabhakaran’s followers who want such a state to come into being. This is partly because Prabhakaran is an old-fashioned totalitarian leader and partly because a tiny, Tamil-majority statelet on a small island doesn’t feel like a rousing cause.

Sri Lanka aside, we’ve witnessed the hideously violent unravelling of Yugoslavia in the name of self-determination. We’ve seen the idea of self-determination taken to its absurd extreme in the elevation of Kosovo and Ossetia, tiny enclaves, barely a million strong, into nations on the ground of ethnic or religious difference. So perhaps, as liberals, we’re entitled to ask of movements of self-determination, what sort of state they aspire to. If self-determination in Kashmir is meant to create a majoritarian state on the basis of ethnicity or faith (and Arundhati Roy, in her essay, is clear that the tableau of azadi that she witnessed was substantially shaped by Islamic ideas and bound by a sense of Muslim identity), an Indian liberal might still prefer azadi because he thinks chronic, quasi-colonial state violence is worse, but at least he would acknowledge that his was a counsel of despair rather an endorsement of a freedom struggle.

That same liberal might argue that the expulsion of the Pandits and the violence against them shouldn’t be accepted as an alibi for holding on to Kashmir, but he would be forced to acknowledge that Kashmiri nationalism in this Muslim variant seeks to draw a border around an ethnically cleansed people.

Alternately, he might oppose self-determination because he thinks the Indian republic is a flawed but valuable experiment in democratic pluralism, that the Indian national movement and the nation-state it created, tried, in an unprecedented way, to build a national identity on the idea of diversity, not homogeneity. It’s worth mentioning here that the Indian state has never attempted to change the demographic realities in the Valley in the way in which Israel and China have in Palestine and Tibet. The loss of Kashmir, the only Muslim-majority state in the Union, would be a) a massive setback to this pluralist project, and b) a gift to Hindu chauvinists who would cite Kashmiri secession as yet another proof of the impossibility of integrating Muslims into a non-Muslim state.

To sum up then, the Indian liberal has two options. He can support azadi in Kashmir because it is the lesser evil, knowing that azadi will almost certainly mean either a sectarian Muslim statelet or more territory for a larger sectarian state, Pakistan. Or he can endorse the Indian occupation because, in the larger scheme of things, Kashmiri Muslim suffering is collateral damage, the price that must be paid for the greater good of a pluralist India. Put like that, there’s no shimmering cause to lift our liberal’s spirits, just a choice between two squalid, compromised ideals.
mukulkesavan@hotmail.com
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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby shyamd » 28 Aug 2008 04:42

NDTV was harping about how Army officials were tight lipped about the incident.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Gerard » 28 Aug 2008 06:10

UN urges restraint in Kashmir after violent clashes
The United Nations Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) has voiced its concern over the violent protests seen recently in Indian-administered Kashmir.

"OHCHR calls on the Indian authorities and in particular security forces to respect the right to freedom of assembly and expression, and comply with international human rights principles in controlling the demonstrators," said a statement issued on Wednesday in Geneva.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby vsudhir » 28 Aug 2008 07:13

Gerard wrote:UN urges restraint in Kashmir after violent clashes
The United Nations Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) has voiced its concern over the violent protests seen recently in Indian-administered Kashmir.

"OHCHR calls on the Indian authorities and in particular security forces to respect the right to freedom of assembly and expression, and comply with international human rights principles in controlling the demonstrators," said a statement issued on Wednesday in Geneva.


Am no fan of the chinis but would love to have Delhi issue a chini style diplomatic response... "The humane, compassionate and free republic of India rejects the false and mischievous insinuations by a self-styled human rights clique based in Geneva. FCurther attempts at interference and violation of soverign rights on the republic of India will meet the condemnation they deserve."

/Yeah, I know,....Dilli could never ever, even in the darkest hour of the emergency, pull a statement like this off with a straight face....

:rotfl:

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby sum » 28 Aug 2008 09:15

Link
-K hostage crisis ends
From Zahoor Malik, DH News Service, Srinagar:
Three militants, who had taken seven persons, including two women and four children hostage at Chinore in Jammu, were killed during a 16-hour long encounter, which ended late on Wednesday night...


While one woman was rescued late in the evening, nothing was known about the fate of the four children, the youngest being two year old, and another woman.

Security forces also recovered the body of a civilian from the encounter site. Earlier, before taking shelter in the house, the militants had killed four people.

Police said at one time, the militants had demanded a safe passage and threatened to kill the hostages if their demand was not met. But security agencies refused to accept their demand.

SASS rally cancelled

Following the encounter the Shri Amarnath Sanagarash Samiti (SASS) spearheading the Jammu agitation for re-transfer land to Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB) cancelled its scheduled rally.

The militants who surfaced in Chinore were said to be from the same group which had infiltrated through Kanachak-Akhnoo sector on Tuesday after resorting to heavy firing and cutting the fencing along the international border.

After spending a night in hiding, the three militants wearing police uniforms were first spotted during the wee hours of Wednesday morning at Mishri Walla. They opened fire killing a junior commissioned officer (JCO) and injuring one more. Later they boarded an auto rickshaw at gun point. While they were travelling, a youth, Shahbeet Hussain, who was following the auto rickshaw while jogging was also shot dead by the militants. “It appears that the militants feared that the slain youth was a cop in civvies and was following them,” police said. The militants then got down from the auto rickshaw and tried to board a load carrier. However, when the driver, Vijay Kumar refused, he too was shot dead.

A motorcyclist Naseeb Singh also fell to the bullets of militants. The ultras then tried to take shelter in a house but the house owner immediately closed the door. The militants then took went into another house belonging to Kalu Ram. Ram’s wife and four of their children along with another woman and one more person were taken as hostage. The security forces immediately cordoned off the whole area and rescued a man, his wife and three children from another house, adjacent to where militants had taken shelter.

A fierce encounter occurred between the holed up militants and security forces and one was killed as he came out of the house, police said. Later another militant was killed. The firing continued through out the day.

Police said that militants were carrying a BSNL mobile phone with which they tried to get in touch with their commanders in Pakistan. But they could not do so since calls to Pakistan from J&K are banned. The number was then traced by the security agencies, who established direct contact with one of the militants, Tallah.

Asked wherefrom the militants got the BSNL phone if they had crossed from Pakistan on Tuesday, the police said the matter is being investigated.


Some mediapersons in Jammu claimed that they talked to the militant through the mobile phone asking them to release the hostages as they were innocent civilians. The militants told them that they have no enmity with the civilians but demanded a safe passage. They even threatened to kill the hostages their demand was not met.

But security forces refused to give in to their demand all through the day until the militants were killed.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby jamwal » 28 Aug 2008 10:10

3 hostages are indeed dead(+ 2 other civilians including one muslim), along with 3 army men all killed before encounter started. In Daily Excelsior and Early Times papers

I feel like a jerk saying this but I'm grateful that DDM didn't start crying over hostages. Next thing you'd see was barkha Dutt wailing over right of life of hostages and how Indian Army was endangering their fundamental right by engaging the terrorists in encounter like they did in Kandhar hijacking incident.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby R Vaidya » 28 Aug 2008 10:59

Stop this Humbug called Kashmiri is Hurt--New Indian Express--28-08-08

http://epaper.newindpress.com/Articlete ... 001&mode=1

rvaidya

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Rupesh » 28 Aug 2008 11:10

Threat to Hindus in Valley: RAW
Pranab Dhal Samanta Posted online: Thursday, August 28, 2008 at 0049 hrs

New Delhi, August 27: The Centre is deeply worried about the security of the Hindu community in the Valley after intelligence reports of militant outfits planning to target them to create communal unrest.

Based on these reports, National Security Advisor M K Narayanan met members of the Hindu Welfare Society during his recent visit to Srinagar and asked the state to intensify security in areas inhabited by the Hindus. The matter was also discussed in a meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Security, which met on Wednesday to take stock of the situation in the state.

The concern grew after a detailed report from the Research and Analysis Wing (RAW) was submitted to the PMO recently. The report, based largely on communication intercepts, stated that Mushtaq Ahmed Zargar, one of the terrorists released after the IC-814 hijack and now heading an outfit called Al Umar Mujahideen, has issued instructions to target Hindus in the Valley, government buildings and public property.

Similarly, the agency has shared specific inputs about the Hizbul Mujahideen leadership issuing instructions to target Hindus in Kishtwar. The RAW has conveyed that the Sikh community too may be under threat from Hizbul cadres. It has also received information that Lashkar-e-Toiba has strengthened its presence outside the Valley in Rajouri and has apparently carried out reconnaissance operations to attack local Hindu religious sites. While law-enforcement authorities are corroborating this information on the ground, the Centre has made it clear that there should be no let-up in increasing security for minority groups.

While the Centre has decided to come down hard on extremist elements in the Valley, there is also a view here that the government must act with equal resolve when it comes to Hindu extremist elements in Jammu so that there is little chance of a communal fallout in the state.

http://www.indianexpress.com/story/354210.html

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby sum » 28 Aug 2008 12:47

3 hostages are indeed dead(+ 2 other civilians including one muslim), along with 3 army men all killed before encounter started. In Daily Excelsior and Early Times papers

Three army men??
Thought it was just the one NCO who was killed before the encounter started!!!

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby jamwal » 28 Aug 2008 14:42

yes 3 Armymen
One from Territorial Army, another a jawan on leave who was on leave whose load carrier they forcibly used and one Army jawan on duty.
The armyman driving load carrier had his brains blown out. Picture is on Daily Excelsior

http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/
JAMMU, Aug 27: Eleven persons including three Army jawans, one of them a JCO, five civilians and three militants were killed while six others including three Army personnel, two civilians and a woman were injured as three fidayeens, who had infiltrated in wee hours of yesterday morning from Kanachak sector, managed to hijack a load carrier auto carrying Gujjars along with their milk containers at Gadla, Kanachak this morning and travelled more than 15 kms before taking shelter in a house at Chinore near Bantalab on on old Jammu-Akhnoor road taking nine persons including four children and three women hostage.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Philip » 28 Aug 2008 15:26

"Ronu" Karlekar is a veteran journo whose seminal book on Bangladesh saw that nation capture its most wanted Islamist terrorist.HGe has some very reassuring words for us ,plus excellent advice on how to eal with Pak sponsored terrorism.

http://dailypioneer.com/columnist1.asp? ... r=karlekar

Let's not panic over Kashmir

There is no reason to panic while dealing with the present unrest in Jammu & Kashmir. The situation is by no means irretrievable. In 1947, Pakistani troops and tribal irregulars were beaten back from the outskirts of Srinagar. The Kashmir Valley was in flames in 1989-90 and the utterly inept and weak-kneed Union Government of the day seemed to be clueless and foundering. Slowly, however, the level of violence and Pakistan-sponsored cross-border terrorism began to subside. Things had improved vastly, with secessionist leaders like Ali Shah Gilani isolated, the level of violence declining and tourist traffic picking up, until the present crisis exploded.

The present crisis too can be overcome. The upward curve of every mass movement has three stages: Gestation, growth and peaking. It then carries everything before it if the response is weak, but levels off and declines if resolute action bars further progress. Arguments over the best way to forge ahead then begin among the movement's leaders and become increasingly acrimonious. Personal rivalries come to the fore and lead first to factional tension and then to strife. Supporters become demoralised and, slowly, the movement loses steam and peters out. In the past, many Governments have used growing contradictions within a movement to hasten its end.

It is best to squelch secessionist movements in the gestation stage by combining firmness with redressal of genuine grievances. This was not done in Jammu & Kashmir when the present stage of the secessionist movement was getting under way with terrorists setting up their infrastructure for violence the 1980s following Sheikh Abdullah's death. The first step toward turning the tide of the agitation in the State will require making it absolutely clear that it will remain an integral part of India, come what may, and Jammu and Kashmir will not be separated.

Apart from the blunders by the Jammu & Kashmir Government -- which have been discussed too threadbare to require reiteration -- one reason why the violent movement in the Valley has snowballed is the belief that the Government of India is losing the will to fight indefinitely to retain the State as an integral part of the country, and that a prolonged, massive upsurge will undermine whatever resolve it still has and force it to give independence to the Valley. This belief, which has to some extent been reinforced by some Indian eminences favouring independence for Kashmir, must immediately be shown as totally delusory..

This must be followed by effective steps to suppress the violent agitation in the State by enforcing the law even-handedly in both Jammu and Kashmir. Secessionists must be isolated and, where it is unavoidable, incarcerated. As important, the flow of funds, arms, explosives and ammunition -- and the trickle of terrorists -- from Pakistan across the Line of Control and via Bangladesh, must be stanched.

The present strategy of interdicting these at the border and acting against terrorist modules within the country, has not worked well. The border with Bangladesh is thoroughly porous and the country's present caretaker Government combines cosmetic anti-terrorist gestures with avoidance of action which will put the extremists out of business, and prevent Pakistan from using the country as a base for terrorist strikes in India. But most important, India must compel Pakistan to stop sponsoring cross-border terrorism against this country through the instrumentality of its Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate and jihadi outfits like the Lashkar-e-Tayyeba, Jaish-e-Mujaheedin and Hizbul Mujaheedin.

The argument that the present democratic Government in Islamabad should be given a chance to settle down and curb terrorism, merits a summary dismissal. The escalation of terrorism in Jammu & Kashmir began in 1989-90. Mr Nawaz Sharif, whose first stint as Prime Minister lasted from November 1, 1990 to July 18, 1993, did nothing to halt it. Nor could he, during his second stint as Prime Minister from February 17, 1997 to October 12, 1999, prevent Pakistan's incursion into Kargil. Benazir Bhutto was Prime Minister when the ISI and the United States' Central Intelligence Agency jointly created the Taliban in the summer of 1994. Whether the democratic rulers were unable or unwilling to curb cross-border terrorism against India is irrelevant. What is relevant is the fact that terrorism waxed during their tenures.

The present Government in Pakistan is teetering on the brink following the withdrawal of support by Mr Nawaz Sharif's Pakistan Muslim League. Even if the latter makes up with Mr Asif Ali Zardari's Pakistan People's Party, their Government is unlikely to have the steel to take on the Taliban and the Al Qaeda operating from Pakistan. Going by present indications, it is a matter of time before Pakistan becomes Talibanised as the United States and the West appear increasingly unwilling or unable to mount the kind of military action required to stop the process.

We must be ready for the worst -- the emergence of a Talibanised Pakistan, where the Al Qaeda calls the shots as it did in Afghanistan during Mullah Omar's rule. India, which, along with the United States and Israel, features in Osama bin Laden's list of the three principal enemies of Islam, will then have to bear the full brunt of an all-out jihad through unconventional (terrorism) and (perhaps also) conventional war. Apart from other solid juridical and historical reasons, this makes it absolutely imperative for us retain Kashmir as an integral part of the country. The Taliban will overrun an 'independent' Kashmir perhaps even before they triumph in Pakistan. This will rob us of our first, and critically important, line of defence in the North-West and give jihadi hordes easy passage to the plains of northern India.

Besides maintaining firm control over the whole of Jammu & Kashmir, we have to engage in hot pursuit of infiltrating terrorists across the LoC and also conduct covert operations against terrorist infrastructure within Pakistan. Unfortunately, the apparatus that we had built up for striking within Pakistan was dismantled during the heyday of the Gujral doctrine from 1996 to 1998. This was an act bordering on treachery.

We need to rebuild the apparatus without delay and retaliate in kind if Pakistan continues to sponsor cross-border terrorism against us. We must also intensify operations against terrorist outfits within our country and either re-enact POTA or let State Governments like those of Gujarat and Rajasthan have their own tough anti-terrorist laws. Nothing else will do.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby jamwal » 28 Aug 2008 21:14

Dainik Jagran carried a story on front page. If thats true, that interview with the terrorist was a big fraud. According to paper, Army had jammed all mobile communication channels using jammers. The guy, Jadad or something whose voice was broadcast on TV, was not even present in Chinore. Either TV channels played a very bad stunt or it was a conspiracy. :-?


http://in.jagran.yahoo.com/news/national/terrorism/5_19_4763662/

गौरतलब है कि चिन्नौर में घर में परिवार को बंधक बनाने के दौरान ये बातें भी फैलाई गई कि घर के अंदर से एक आतंकी ने टेलीफोन पर कहा कि उनका जेहाद तब तक चलेगा जब तक कश्मीर आजाद नहीं हो जाता। इसके साथ उसने कश्मीर में माहौल ठीक करने की भी बात कही। उसका कथित बयान एक टीवी चैनल पर प्रसारित भी किया गया। जब बिल्लू राम के मोबाइल पर स्थानीय मीडिया के लोगों ने फोन मिलाया तो उस ओर से कोई जवाब नहीं आया। वैसे भी मुठभेड़ स्थल के पास सेना ने सिग्नल ब्लाक करने के लिए जैमर लगा रखा था।

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby ramana » 28 Aug 2008 22:58

Mukul Kesavan if he doesnt know about Kashmir he should shut up. One thing that will come out of the turmoil in Kashmir is a hardening of attitudes in India. The first to feel the blowback will be the treacheous media. Its one thing to be liberal and another to be treasonous.

Jammu was targetted from TSP as its the center of the recent protests. They want the Jammuites to feel the heat and be insecure.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Prem » 28 Aug 2008 23:25

Idiots in media ignores tha fact that Jammuites being original inhabitants with indigenous heritage has all the claim over the whole land in the Valley and they can use it for any purpose they deem fit. Present Muslims living in Valley are not the proprieter of Valley they just happen to be occupiers sucking up to their terrorist masters across the border, working as their agents .
If media has any sense , they should start making Indians aware of the Valley Muslim treachery and initiate the discussion over disowning and punishment for these traitors and their sympathizers.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby SwamyG » 28 Aug 2008 23:31

Got this today in the email :-))))))))

http://www.anusha.com/kashmir.htm

I want to send some good links about the true history, anybody can help?

ps: The last few days have been very disheartening for me when I learned the attitude and misinformation among few friends of mine.
Last edited by SwamyG on 28 Aug 2008 23:40, edited 1 time in total.

ramana
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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby ramana » 28 Aug 2008 23:38

SwamyG,
A request. Please try to post a description of nay links as a courtesey.

Thanks, ramana


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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Bharati » 29 Aug 2008 00:59

Here is a link which is good for children who do not know much.

http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/basicfacts/basics.html


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