Su-30: News and Discussion

[Dmurphy]

TOI: Pune to get 3rd Sukhoi sqn

Whats the logic behind it, gurus?

Pune doesn't even qualify as a border district! Arent those beauties better off somewhere near the Eastern or the Western borders?

[rkhanna]

Pune doesn't even qualify as a border district! Arent those beauties better off somewhere near the Eastern or the Western borders?

They are there to Suppliment Jags in Maritime Strike and to protect Trombay/BARC/Mumbai/Bombay High incase of an Attack. The MKIs (as i have been told) are also readied as a last line of defence against Ballistic Missles also.

Also IMO the InAF is treating the MKI has a Strategic Fighter and not tactical. if its deployed in the border areas those FOBs will be the First to be hit by cruise missle waves . MKIs with their long range have the flexibility of being foward deployed quickly as a reactionary measure. Plus close to the border the easier it is for ELINT AC of the Enemy to pic it up and study it.

[Kakarat]

TOI: Pune to get 3rd Sukhoi sqn

Any idea which Squadron?

[Singha]

how are they of any use against ballistic missiles?

[Dmurphy]

Plus close to the border the easier it is for ELINT AC of the Enemy to pic it up and study it.

But we do have them at Jodhpur Air base...

And on the eastern front, we plan to have them installed at Tezpur apart from a few places in U.P as well. I thought having 2 squadrons is in itself an extravagant thing. Plus i guess the 18 Su-30s were still there when i last checked out google earth!

All said and done, having 3 squadrons at 3 different places instead of just one is quite a logistical nightmare!

Anyway, long live the Rambhas!

[Mihir.D]

If they are new planes they will be put through the usual pre-deployment routine at Pune and then deployed to there permanent base. I read this in earlier post on this same thread.

I second Singha's qtn. How can they be used against BMs?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1934798/posts

US jet intercepts ballistic missile for first time: officials
Breitbart ^ | Dec 4 07:35 PM US/Eastern

Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2007 6:44:53 AM by null and void

Dec 4 07:35 PM US/Eastern A US F-16 fighter used an air-to-air missile to destroy a sounding rocket in its boost phase for the first time this week in a test of a new missile defense concept, US spokesmen said Tuesday.

The system -- named the Net-Centric Airborne Defense Element (NCDE) -- breaks new ground in that it would arm fighter aircraft or drones with missiles fast enough to intercept a ballistic missile as it lifts into space.

The aircraft would have to get to within a 100 miles of the launch site to catch the ascending missile in the first two to three minutes after launch.

But it could be very useful in a short range combat situation against short and medium range missiles, said Rick Lehner, a spokesman for the US Missile Defense Agency.

The Pentagon has two other better known boost phase intercept systems under development -- the Airborne Laser and the Kinetic Energy Interceptor -- but those are still years away from being ready, he said.

"So it does give us an initial boost phase capability even though it is a much shorter range missile, and you have to be in the area of the missile launch to be effective," Lehner said.

The test Monday at White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico involved an F-16 fighter that fired two modified AIM-9X missile at an Orion sounding or research rocket.

The first destroyed the rocket and the second recorded the interception, the Pentagon's missile defense agency said.

The missile seekers' relayed images of the rocket at close range, demonstrating the capability to acquire and track the target, the Pentagon's missile defense agency said.

"Although not unexpected, the subsequent intercept destroyed the target," it said.

"A second AIM-9X launched during the test observed through its seeker the intercept of the target by the first and was also on a trajectory to intercept the target," the agency said.

Besides special seekers, AIM-9X and AIM-20 AAMRAM are fitted with a new liquid propellant second stage to give it the burst of speed needed to catch a ballistic missile in its boost phase.

Lehner said the missiles were heavily instrumented during the test, but otherwise conditions were "pretty realistic."

Raytheon Missile Systems, which developed the NCADE, said it "provides a revolutionary, low-cost approach to interceptor development and acquisition."

[chitre]

TOI: Pune to get 3rd Sukhoi sqn

Any idea which Squadron?

Thats what baffles me, with the Pursoots being assigned to the MKI already, and reports saying another two squadrons of MKI will be deployed in the East, where are all these airframes coming from?

Whats the logic behind it, gurus?

Pune doesn't even qualify as a border district! Arent those beauties better off somewhere near the Eastern or the Western borders?

Pune was always being developed as one of the main SU-30 bases. IIRC, even the Mig-29's used to be first inducted here, then moved off to other bases before the Rambha came along.

and i do recall, when the Jags shifted out of Pune, there was a report saying this exact same thing, that they moved away to accomodate another future MKI sqn.

[shiv]

Pune doesn't even qualify as a border district! Arent those beauties better off somewhere near the Eastern or the Western borders?

I agree with this logic. In fact I am vehemently opposed to even civilian airports in landlocked places like Bangalore. Civilian airports too should be placed near the borders where the aircraft are closer to the destinations they need to reach.

Time, fuel and utility concerns are all addressed by this. Its the corruption in India that closes Indian minds to this simple but brilliant logic.

[Kapil]

Hi,

I was there when 20 returned.A 4 ship left echelon of Su30s is a sight to behold!!!
And then they peel off,one by one,and come in to land individually.
8 Sqn will have to be raised at Lohegaon as the infrastructure is already there.
Plus Pune is close to training ranges as well.
Lohegaon has been the induction base for the Bis,the Baaz and the Boss (MKI)

Read more in my report later.

[Dmurphy]

I agree with this logic. In fact I am vehemently opposed to even civilian airports in landlocked places like Bangalore. Civilian airports too should be placed near the borders where the aircraft are closer to the destinations they need to reach.

Time, fuel and utility concerns are all addressed by this. Its the corruption in India that closes Indian minds to this simple but brilliant logic.

It was an honest query. All i meant to ask was, wouldn't the Sukhois be better used in the border areas, like maintaining a detrimental posture. Anyway, people it seems, ARE allowed to spew venom when they cant keep the animosity within themselves.

And it hurts even more when you've grown up reading and appreciating their posts and knowledge over the years.

[Mihir.D]

I agree with this logic. In fact I am vehemently opposed to even civilian airports in landlocked places like Bangalore. Civilian airports too should be placed near the borders where the aircraft are closer to the destinations they need to reach.

Time, fuel and utility concerns are all addressed by this. Its the corruption in India that closes Indian minds to this simple but brilliant logic.

It was an honest query. All i meant to ask was, wouldn't the Sukhois be better used in the border areas, like maintaining a detrimental posture. Anyway, people it seems, ARE allowed to spew venom when they cant keep the animosity within themselves.

And it hurts even more when you've grown up reading and appreciating their posts and knowledge over the years.

Chill ....dude....
He was only kidding.

[Rahul M]

like maintaining a detrimental posture.....

I suppose you meant "deterrent posture".
to answer your question, why do you think a sukhoi sqdn at a forward air base has a deterrent value that one based inland will not ?
all strategic assets are based deep inside your territory to prevent being taken by surprise. bases closer to the borders get the point defence interceptors and they are enough to do the job. BTW, jodhpur doesn't have a su sqdn to my knowledge.

P.S. Nick76 was right when he had said that rumours were floating around of another su sqdn being raised.

[Surya]

We are talking of fighters

where they are based is not that important - they are moved pretty quickly where they are needed to.

peace time logic is diff.

So chill out

[Dmurphy]

Thanks Rahul...
and yeah...i did mean to say "deterrent'!

I recall reading that report in TOI about the MKIs being shifted to Jodhpur/some western airbase.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2008_pg7_1

Presently, India has positioned its Sukhois only at Pune, Jodhpur and Bareilly. They are also operated from the airbases in the Andaman and Nicobar Islands, and Halwara.

http://www.idrw.org/2008/02/12/jaguars_ ... _good.html

"The Jaguar squadron was shifted to Jamnagar. Of the two Sukhoi squadrons, number 20 was flown to Jodhpur and Number 30 to Jamnagar. Of the three, only the Number 30 Sukhoi squadron will return to Pune, post runway repairs, under an IAF plan to spread out the fighter strength for operational and strategic reasons," said a senior IAF official.

[shiv]

I agree with this logic. In fact I am vehemently opposed to even civilian airports in landlocked places like Bangalore. Civilian airports too should be placed near the borders where the aircraft are closer to the destinations they need to reach.

Time, fuel and utility concerns are all addressed by this. Its the corruption in India that closes Indian minds to this simple but brilliant logic.

It was an honest query. All i meant to ask was, wouldn't the Sukhois be better used in the border areas, like maintaining a detrimental posture. Anyway, people it seems, ARE allowed to spew venom when they cant keep the animosity within themselves.

And it hurts even more when you've grown up reading and appreciating their posts and knowledge over the years.

Not venom. Sarcasm. Sorry if that hurt you. Air bases near borders are open to attack during wars. One reason we had to have many at the borders is because our aircraft ranges were so short that their maximum range within enemy territory could be increased by placing them close to the border. That is completely unnecessary in the case of an aircraft like the Sukhoi wrt to Pakistan. However air bases close to the border serve as additional dispersal areas and alternative landing areas for aircraft returning from attacks short of fuel or when the home air base is under attack or runway damaged.

It also makes sense to place airbases at a spot where aircraft can be approximately equidistant from different areas where it may have to operate rather than concentrating 20 aircraft within 50 Km of one part of a 1000 Km border - leaving the aircraft 500 km from some other potential area of action.

In any conflict an enemy will try to neutralize air bases by various means - starting from air attack, artillery and even sabotage by special ops teams. All these are less likely when the air base is situated deeper. In peacetime conditions, aircraft do not have to be based at a border to fulfil their role.

[neerajb]

Indian purchase of Su-35 is unprobably IMHO due to different airframe . More likely Su-30MKI will be a benefitiar from different Su-35 technologies: 172S engines for Su-30MKI MLU, IRBIS's gimbal for BARS (with keeping indian parts upgraded in India), new OLS developed for Su-35, the missiles integrated with Su-35 etc.

AFAIK, the Su-35s are just an improved version of Su 30s, which means that they too are heavy class multi-role aircrafts just like MKIs with the Su 35 differing on being single seat fighters with better radar and engines. There are few structural changes as well...Su35 has larger wingspan but is a bit shorter in height and length as compared to the MKIs (may be becuase its a single seater).

IMHO the Su-30MKI (IRKUT) and Su-30MKK (KnAPPO) are different birds structurally which reflects on their respective ranges of 4.5K Km V/s 3K Km. I remember reading somewhere that Indian MKIs are equipped with addittional fuel tanks which account for the increased range. Now Su-35 is a modified version of Su-30MKK with a range of 3.6K Km, despite enlarged airframe. So I really doubt the structural compatibility of MKI and Su-35, and whether our liscensed production can be modified easily for producing Su-35 instead of remaining MKIs. Yes but our MKIs can be upgraded with 117S and IRBIS if IAF wishes so.

Cheers....

[Himanshu]

From what I know Lightnings were in Bareilly around Late July..

[Dmurphy]

So I really doubt the structural compatibility of MKI and Su-35

Yes but our MKIs can be upgraded with 117S and IRBIS if IAF wishes so

Did you just answer your own doubt there?

But i'm told that the PAK-FA will be powered by the 117s (Will try and find those sources for you) So i'm guessing the Su-35 offer must be more like a stepping stone to the PAK-FA, if i can put it that way. May be it will give us the experience of manufacturing the 117s in bulk for the 20 squadrons of PAK-FA that we're supposedly interested in. Ditto for the radars too

I've also been exposed to some reports suggesting that the offer is to pacify us for the delay in the PAK-FA project.

Guru-gyaan please

[Kapil]

Hi Rahul.

I am quite confused about rumours of another Su sqn being raised.
I mean with a total of 140+ aircraft on order,Sqns WILL have to be raised to fit these birds in.
What the CinC said was that if they can get aircraft delivered on time,in the numbers they want,they can raise a sqn even in December 2008.

Recall that 24 Sqn gave up its Ks,and had no MKIs delivered to them for a few months.
Until then the entire sqn was divided into the other 2 sqns for training etc.And aircraft were borrowed by 24 from other sqns and returned later.

I am assuming a minimum of 8 Su30 sqns overall.
3 are in place already with a 4th on its way.
that leaves room for 4 more.

[neerajb]

So I really doubt the structural compatibility of MKI and Su-35

Yes but our MKIs can be upgraded with 117S and IRBIS if IAF wishes so

Did you just answer your own doubt there?

But i'm told that the PAK-FA will be powered by the 117s (Will try and find those sources for you) So i'm guessing the Su-35 offer must be more like a stepping stone to the PAK-FA, if i can put it that way. May be it will give us the experience of manufacturing the 117s in bulk for the 20 squadrons of PAK-FA that we're supposedly interested in. Ditto for the radars too

I've also been exposed to some reports suggesting that the offer is to pacify us for the delay in the PAK-FA project.

Guru-gyaan please

I meant that our production facilities which are producing the airframe for MKI cannont manufacture the airframe for Su-35 without major changes in the assembly line. It would be like setting up a production facility for an entirely new aircraft since there is very less similarity in the two, airframe wise. Su-35 doesn't use carnards to lessen the drag and the performance penalty is overcome by use of advanced TVC (demo shows Mig-35 like omni directional TVC), wings are larger and the tails are smaller than MKI. Also my point is that Su-30MKK (on which Su-35 is base) was different from our MKI from the begining (see my range question) so Su-35 and MKI are bound to be different as far as airframe goes.

I was doubtful about the engine change too, since 117S has a fan dia of 932mm whereas Al-31FP has a dia of 905mm but saturn says that Su-27/30 aircrafts can be upgraded with 117S with 'minimal changes'. So if they say that it can be done then who am I to doubt that. One report says that power requirements of IRBIS cannot be met by Al-31FP, so IRBIS will come as a MLU only if IAF chooses 117S.

Cheers....

[Rahul M]

Hi Rahul.

I am quite confused about rumours of another Su sqn being raised.
I mean with a total of 140+ aircraft on order,Sqns WILL have to be raised to fit these birds in.
What the CinC said was that if they can get aircraft delivered on time,in the numbers they want,they can raise a sqn even in December 2008.

Recall that 24 Sqn gave up its Ks,and had no MKIs delivered to them for a few months.
Until then the entire sqn was divided into the other 2 sqns for training etc.And aircraft were borrowed by 24 from other sqns and returned later.

I am assuming a minimum of 8 Su30 sqns overall.
3 are in place already with a 4th on its way.
that leaves room for 4 more.

kapil boss, the rumour is about a 5th one to be raised immediately after or along with the pursoots.
the previous 3 being 24,20 and 30. pursoots have been mentioned in official releases for sometime now. so they are more or less confirmed to be the 4th one. the questions are about the 5th unit. may be one of the mig-21MF sqdns will be converted.
btw, do you know if the bis-bison conversion for the 125 a/c has been completed or not ?
thanks.

[MukulMohanty]

Like always, we seem never to agree on the number of Sukhoi's!

[Rupesh]

IMHO Lohegaon appears too vulnerable to me...the sukhois are clearly visible from the civillian aircrafts taking off and landing in pune..you can actually count the number of MKI's parked near the runway..just imagine if avhijacked aircraft were to be crashed on the MKI's, why don't we utilize the bases at nasik ( both Ojhar- HAL Airport and Nasik can handle MKI's and Nasik is close to mumbai.)

[Dmurphy]

IMHO Lohegaon appears too vulnerable to me...the sukhois are clearly visible from the civillian aircrafts taking off and landing in pune..you can actually count the number of MKI's parked near the runway..just imagine if avhijacked aircraft were to be crashed on the MKI's, why don't we utilize the bases at nasik ( both Ojhar- HAL Airport and Nasik can handle MKI's and Nasik is close to mumbai.)

I agree Rupesh. While we're on the topic, the Mumbai airport is worse. One can just pelt stones and break the cockpit windscreens from the neighbouring Rafique Nagar i'm told !

Imagine what the Ind-Muj will do if they get hold of an RPG!

[Rahul M]

may be those are the dummy sukhois !

[MukulMohanty]

If you think our armed forces are so daft so as to put $30m aircrafts at stones throw - think again.

Most a/c's in India are usually under hardened shelter + they are usually covered especially to keep the avionics from simply melting down in the heat in India. Especially the sensors. These aircrafts are not simply stored even when flying.

There is constant attention been given to these birds and they aren't simply parked unattended. Plus, what makes you think the aircrafts parked outside and left there aren't decoys.

Decoys are easy to build, have a simple motor inside and usually can even be moved around independently. Decoys are meant to look like low hanging fruit in case of attack and hence they are placed in vulnerable positions to take away flak from the regular a/c's.

[MukulMohanty]

Hi Rahul.

I am quite confused about rumours of another Su sqn being raised.
I mean with a total of 140+ aircraft on order,Sqns WILL have to be raised to fit these birds in.
What the CinC said was that if they can get aircraft delivered on time,in the numbers they want,they can raise a sqn even in December 2008.

Recall that 24 Sqn gave up its Ks,and had no MKIs delivered to them for a few months.
Until then the entire sqn was divided into the other 2 sqns for training etc.And aircraft were borrowed by 24 from other sqns and returned later.

I am assuming a minimum of 8 Su30 sqns overall.
3 are in place already with a 4th on its way.
that leaves room for 4 more.

kapil boss, the rumour is about a 5th one to be raised immediately after or along with the pursoots.
the previous 3 being 24,20 and 30. pursoots have been mentioned in official releases for sometime now. so they are more or less confirmed to be the 4th one. the questions are about the 5th unit. may be one of the mig-21MF sqdns will be converted.
btw, do you know if the bis-bison conversion for the 125 a/c has been completed or not ?
thanks.

Bison conversion is finished.

[Rahul M]

thanks !
could you oblige with the sqdns ? are there any bis left ?

[Dmurphy]

If you think our armed forces are so daft so as to put $30m aircrafts at stones throw - think again.

I dont know how much an Airbus-320 costs, but they were certainly put at a stones throw distance! And it carries many more lives than a $30 m Sukhoi does.

[Anshul]

may be those are the dummy sukhois !

No they are real and i had the good luck of seeing them up close and personal.Its a C shape parking.The SU-30K were piled up for replacements just south of the Lightnings.

The RPG threat is real.But I assume the Garuds were raised keeping the SLAF scenario in mind.You don't want a bunch of Jehadis storming the base with RPGs and Grenades.Close proximity launches are just as possible at the HAL airport .The Jags and LCAs are kept inside hangars though.The ASTE dispersal area is better protected.

Pune ..looks very vulnerable ...basically the whole of Lohegaon looks bombed out.He He...so much to make it look unattractive to jehadis.

[MukulMohanty]

may be those are the dummy sukhois !

No they are real and i had the good luck of seeing them up close and personal.Its a C shape parking.The SU-30K were piled up for replacements just south of the Lightnings.

The RPG threat is real.But I assume the Garuds were raised keeping the SLAF scenario in mind.You don't want a bunch of Jehadis storming the base with RPGs and Grenades.Close proximity launches are just as possible at the HAL airport .The Jags and LCAs are kept inside hangars though.The ASTE dispersal area is better protected.

Pune ..looks very vulnerable ...basically the whole of Lohegaon looks bombed out.He He...so much to make it look unattractive to jehadis.

May be the decoys look real for a reason!!!

+ I am sure these guys are smarter than that! I know you can seek the K's from Pune Airport while landing but seriously do you think this would be a cake walk. If the guys could figure this out, wouldn't they have already tried it!
Come on! Give these people a break!

[Anshul]

Look Mukul,

Had I been a Jehadi....i would have surely tried it out with great success and cocked a snook at IAF security.You don't get secured with perimeter watch towers where you are constantly blinded by strong sunlight.The terrain has scattered garbage and rags..makes it easier to hide.I know it would be green at the moment.

I have been to the dispersal area..and touched those dummies... IAF has 3 SQNs worth of dummies then.And we flew a lot of dummies at Nevada....!!!

[fanne]

They say war is too important to be left at the generals. I would say the same thing for IAF security. Sure they are professional and know what they are doing, can they be commiting simple mistake, can we think out of the box and suggest few obvious short comings, yes surely we can.
IAF has written to the relevant ministry about the undesirebility of having a civilian airport with the militiary one. They wanted pune civilian one to move out. For various reasons that did not happen. I hope IAF does not think it's duties stop at that. They are responsible for its security, the bucks stop with them, with or ithout the civilian airport.
I think simple things like say 10-15 feet wire mesh walls around the perimeter will help. The thr grenade or RPG have to take trejectories that would lessen some risk. Patrol and senteries, close circuit cameras etc. The civilian side of airport should be watertight, no one can come to the IAF side, even some suicide squad, build an infrastructure if not already there. You do not need to be in IAF to think these measures and IAF cannot just not leave it on fate and not do it. These measures will not cost even one fourth of a cost of SU30MKI. I hope they have done it.
This should be done to all IAF airports. nfrared sensors etc. should be a norm.
Over and out,
Fanne

[HariC]

Aw quit whinging about 'IAF doesnt know how to protect'.

One word (or is it an i...... ) - Awantipur

[Rahul M]

guys, pune has more security than meets the eye. as per the personal experience of a person I know. that's all I will say on a public forum. let's cut this discussion right here before we go into uncomfortable details and ideas.
there is NO need to point out security deficiencies of military establishments on a public forum. if you have a contact inside the services, raise the issue there. if not, keep it to yourself.
thank you

[Anurag]

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... trParentID

Frontline Sukhoi SU-30 jet deployed in Jammu and Kashmir

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has, for the first time, deployed its multi-role Sukhoi SU-30MKI combat jets in Jammu and Kashmir to send out a powerful message to both China and Pakistan, with whom it has fought border wars.
The twin-seater air dominance fighter aircraft has begun operating from Ladakh on a temporary basis for what is officially described as a routine training exercise.

"The IAF has deployed Sukhoi jets in Jammu and Kashmir as part of its annual training programme to help the pilots adapt to different environments and respond with flexibility," Air Marshal P K Barbora, the Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the premier Western Air Command, told IANS.

The deployment of two squadrons of the SU-30s from their home base at Pune in Maharashtra comes at a time when Pakistan is scheduled to receive a fresh batch of F-16 combat aircraft from the US, as also the JF-17s from China. Two more squadrons of the aircraft are permanently stationed at Bareilli in a China-centric deployment.

While in Ladakh, the SU-30s will undertake various training missions along the India-China and India-Pakistan borders.

The aircraft have just returned home after successfully participating in the prestigious Red Flag exercise with the US Air Force at the Nellis Air Force base in Nevada.

The IAF has been strengthening its lines of defence along the India-China border with the re-opening up of various airbases and the upgradation of several others.

Toward this, the SU-30s, which are capable of delivering eight tones of nuclear payload, are likely to be deployed at the Tezpur air base in Assam, while Pune is to get another squadron of the aircraft, these ones being manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.

Besides reopening its Daulat Beigh Oldie airstrip in Jammu and Kashmir, the IAF is also upgrading its air bases at Dibrugarh, Mohanbari, Jorhat, Guwahati, Hasimara and Bagdogra in Assam to counter China's prowess.

[MN Kumar]

Its hard to say but I see some more significance to the MKI deployments in JK. With the recent border firings and incursions things are heating up in JK. Some sort of message is being conveyed here. Also the statements by the Def Min about Paki assistance to the jihadi scums after the Delhi blasts should also be counted. Ofcouse training is a regular thing but deploying your strategic air assets near the borders is to let them know that we are capable of escalating this.

Dont know how I can think of this scenario with the current Govt. But its just my humble opinion.

[NRao]

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... trParentID

Frontline Sukhoi SU-30 jet deployed in Jammu and Kashmir

............................................................................

Toward this, the SU-30s, which are capable of delivering eight tones of nuclear payload, ........................................

Pakis can reproc and send it back?

[pushkar.bhat]

http://in.news.yahoo.com/32/20080918/10 ... r-ski.html

Can some one please explain what they mean by "pervasive missions".. Sounds evil

[Anshul]

Aggressive Patrols .....likely top cover to UAVs.Looks like there is something big building up.IA may be planning an attack on camps using the UAVs.I wonder if our UAVs have been configured to launch hellfires and take out Jehadi Camps.