Delhi Blasts news and info

[Rye]

The "secular" political parties don't seem to realize that they are undercutting their own long-term electoral chances when they wink at islamists and their friends in the Indian leadership with each terrorist attack, while pointing fingers at non-muslim communities. With such overtly mendacious behaviour, they are increasing the insecurity of the rest of the people, which in turn is going to make the rest behave in ways that may not be entirely helpful or predictable, like ostracizing the muslim community in toto, or straight-up violence, thus severely reducing any chance of redeeming the situation (this happened in Coimbatore after 98 blasts and in other places that had excellent hindu-muslim relations before the islamists destroyed everything. Things have never been the same in each of these places, and none of the reaction was overtly organized by any group of people -- it just played out that way after the terrorist attacks.)

OTOH, the point Sridhar is making (and I agree) is that the situation cannot be made any worse than it currently is by turning more people into the arms of the islamists -- this is absolutely imperative. However, this situation can only be fixed by the GoI leadership, not aam aadmi jokers like us. Anyway, I am glad that they are targetting New Delhi...maybe it will force all the "secular" politicians to view things with the seriousness they deserve...or maybe not, they all have Z-category security.

[R_Kumar]

Leonard: I agree with you. However, this problem of not finding flats for rent or purchase is not unique to Muslims. In many cities, SCs find it very hard to rent an apartment in upscale neighborhoods. So let's not disregard the real discrimination that exists, while also noting that all of it is not discrimination alone.

I was never asked about my cast in the cities where I have lived and my last name is Kumar. Any Hindu in India may have Kumar as a last name. I am talking about big cities s I have no experience about renting in small town.
Can you provide us some evidence or genuine story?

As far as Muslims are concerned even I will think a lot before renting my house because I am scared of them. And it is not my fault that I am scared.

[R_Kumar]

Could you please give us some example where "Hindutva historians" written half truths?

[
The leftist historians have done a lot of damage to us as a society. I am for overhauling our history books and eliminating the influence of this ideology-ridden body of pseudo-scholars. If a truth commission will help alleviate the sense of hurt amongst Hindus, then that deserves my support too. We should however be willing to accept that the truth lies somewhere between the lies and half-truths propounded by both the leftists and the Hindutva historians. Both are guilty of selective using historical facts to build a case that is hard to justify when you put all the facts together. There are largely pseudo-scholars on all sides.

[fanne]

Delhi Police (maybe under UPA pressure) resorted to one upmanship and has spoilt the subsequent investigation. It has not taken their counterparts in confidence and aleady declared Varanasi case and others solved. (Now last I checked Varanasi is not in Delhi). Not suprisingly all other suspects are not missing. Contrast that with the way Gujrat police worked. It did not rush to media with every day, just did their work.

http://indiatoday.digitaltoday.in/index ... 4&Itemid=1

Dadwal’s shocker to Gujarat police
Uday Mahurkar
Ahmedabad, September 22, 2008
The camaraderie that one has witnessed in recent weeks between the different states’ police and intelligence networks in the country on the issue of fighting terror (after the Gujarat police’s August 16 breakthrough in the Ahmedabad bomb blasts) has broken down following Delhi police commissioner YS Dadwal's assertion that the inputs from the state or Mufti Abu Bashir had no role to play in the breakthrough that the Delhi police achieved in the Delhi bomb blasts.

Dadwal's statement, given in a press conference soon after the police encounter in the national capital that led to the killing of Atif alias Bashir, has come as a bolt from the blue for the Gujarat police because it was Gujarat police which had passed on Atif's mobile phone number to the Delhi police.

Even after getting the phone number when the Delhi police couldn't locate the exact house where Atif and gang were staying, it called for Mufti Bashir, an Azamgarh maulvi and one of the key ideologues of SIMI, who is in the Gujarat police custody.

So, a Gujarat police official took Mufti Bashir to Delhi where he showed the Delhi police as many as five places where the alleged perpetrators of Delhi blasts might have had hidden themselves. And it was at one of these five locations that the Delhi police located Atif and his fellow terrorists.

Worse, when the Delhi police team went to target Atif and his gang after locating them, it kept the Gujarat police team, which was still in Delhi with Mufti Bashir, in the dark.

Says a senior Gujarat police official giving intricate details of the inputs provided to Delhi police that led to the Delhi blasts breakthrough: "We tried our best to ensure that politics is not played over national security and our political bosses right from Chief Minister Narendra Modi downwards supported us. But alas some in the country's security set up don't want it that way."

Clearly, the atmosphere of one-upmanship amongst the men in Khakhi might be back.

http://indiatoday.digitaltoday.in/index ... 4&Itemid=1

Delhi Police is now being targeted by Muslim intellectuals, including Congressman Salman Khusheed, for deliberately giving Islamic tint to the September 13 serial bomb blasts in Delhi by wrapping the faces of the three accused - Nisar, Shakeel, Rehman - with 'Arabic' red check scarves called 'kaffiyeh'.

While sources in the Special Cell say that they had no problem with them wearing some other scarf, they did not confirm whether the scarves belonged to the three accused or was provided by the police when they covered their faces before waiting cameras.

In the meantime, a joint team of the Delhi Police and the Anti-Terrorist Squad (ATS) of Uttar Pradesh police raided Sanjarpur village in the Sarai Meer block of Azamgarh district. Five of the 13 terrorists responsible for the Delhi blasts belonged to this village. The joint operation was carried out to find the whereabouts of accused Arif, Sajid, Salman and Khalid, who are still on the run. Police is believed to have recovered some CDs and documents form there.

The ATS has managed to trace the bank account of a suspected terrorist and it is believed that a transaction of Rs 3 crore took place form the account few months back.

As the details of the investigations are making way to the public domain, it is clear that quite contrary to the claim of the Delhi Police commissioner, Y S Dadwal, who said the encounter was a Delhi Police operation, it was only through the phone details made available by the Gujarat police and the Intelligence Bureau (IB) that police could trace the alleged terrorists to the Batla House flat in Zakhir Nagar.

Delhi Police has maintained that there were five terrorists at the time of encounter, two of whom escaped, two were killed and only one, Saif, could be arrested. The phone records indicate that the mobile number of Arif, one of those killed in the encounter, was used to order food for twelve people a night before. "This is one of the reasons why Delhi Police believes that the module had 12-13 people," says an insider in the special cell.

Rajasthan police also made a claim that Arif and Saif were the ones who carried out serial blasts in Jaipur on May 13 this year. They came to Jaipur by bus with ten others on the same day, purchased cycles in Japiur, planted bombs, and left Jaipur by train. "They divide themselves in three groups to plant the bombs," said special operations group (SOG) DIG A Ponnuchami.

[Suppiah]

An equal opportunity society free of discrimination and bias is essential for eventual peace and development. I think everyone agrees on that, even the worst radicals in every group. To get there, genuine grievances of all groups, including minority groups needs to be addressed. But how we get there is going to be the issue. Right now every community/caste/lingo/region is on a seize-territory mode, in the hope that when eventually everyone sits at the table for negotiation to talk about this Utopian India, they can do so from position of strength and ground realities will also speak for itself.. This mode is behind practically everything - desire for quotas, separatism, separate statehood, rise of parties like PMK, desire for cabinet berths, jihadi violence, pro-Hindu radicalism, dalit political rise, even slots in the Indian cricket team.

Who is going to lead the exit from this mode to the next mode - of dialog and accommodation? Not parties like BJP, not pseudo-secular Congress, not the leftist liars and their plants in the media. I think the process has to play itself out, eventually throwing up leaders less and less radical than their mentors and more and more willing to walk half-way. Good example is Mayawati (vs Kanshi Ram) or Karunanidhi (vs Ramaswamy Naicker).

While it plays itself out, we as aam janta have no choice but to wait and support right leaders/parties. IMHO it might take a 100 years or more as we are much more heterogeneous than US (a comparable situation) and carry much more historical baggage. Accelerated economic development will mask symptoms or postpone the issue, but not remove them (Malaysia being a good example, there are more). Repression and forced secularism will do exactly the same (Yugoslavia and dozens more). What we have, which is forced fake-secularism will of course, do worse.

[ramana]

It was Sheila Dikshit in an interview that gave the whole thing a poltical slant. I read her remarks in Pioneer on Saturday. So most likely the DP were under orders to ensure they took sole credit for the operation. Having taken the credit they should aslo take the brunt of criticism for Islamising the whole thing!
BTW that red and white checked shawl is called gamcha in Andhra!

On Zee there was a policeman with a fierce mustache who gave teh full details and was very impressinve in his command of Hindi. Could be DIG Ponnuswami.

[fanne]

What is a shocker is that the attack on Delhi was avoidable. Guj polic of course did not give the time and place where the bomb attack would happen (as they did not know it and probably at the time of the investigation it might not have been decided by the terrorist), but they gave the cell number of the chief suspect. Sonia, Manmohan and Shivraj chose to sit on that information due to their political compulsion. After the attack and subsequent pressure from public (dhimmi media also saw which way wind was blowing and chose to corner Congress) then only DP decided to act. It did not have any extra information than what it had before the blast.

rgds,
fanne

[GuruNandan]

So whats happening in the Begluru blasts case? I see no updates.

I was in Bangalore this July-August. The word there is that the Janata Dal (S) has a hand in the Bangalore blast. I am told that they want to undermine the BJP government. It seems plausible and the reason it could be possible is that compared to the Ahmedabad and Delhi blasts, it was of much low intensity. Also my guess is that Janata Dal (S) might have a hand in the attack on the Churches in Bangalore as well. The same could be happening in Kerala.

My two cents

[Avinash R]

shahi imam of jama masjid delhi leads the funeral prayers for the 2
terrorists killed in police shoot-out.
publically showing that muslims terrorists who died were not
terrorists but ghazis in eyes of muslim population of delhi.
Until the old delhi area is cleansed of such people these terror attacks
will never stop.
Azamgarh was just the centre which produced and provided the foot soldiers
but real sympathizers, funders and cheerleaders of jehadism live among
us in delhi. This is the real area which needs to be addressed else this will fester into an long term problem.
edit:
The 'shahi imam''s name is Syed Ahmed Bukhari.

[sum]

Delhi Police is now being targeted by Muslim intellectuals, including Congressman Salman Khusheed, for deliberately giving Islamic tint to the September 13 serial bomb blasts in Delhi by wrapping the faces of the three accused - Nisar, Shakeel, Rehman - with 'Arabic' red check scarves called 'kaffiyeh'.

The "intellectuals" keep getting more and more bizarre in their accusations and they sink lower and lower in the public eye.....

The things that are being discussed regarding islamic terrorism(and the "seculars" defending them) even in my office by staunchly neutral folks till now in startling... Suddenly, the common man(atleast whom i have interacted with) seems to had enough of the Islamic bombing because of evil yindoo nonsense.... Patience seems to be wearing thin after sudden spurt of 4 cities being bombed!!!

[Avinash R]

SIMI member nabbed in MP
Jabalpur | Selasa, Sep 23 2008 IST

A member of the banned Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI) has been arrested in this cantonment town by Madhya Pradesh's Anti-Terrorist Squad as part of a crackdown against terror in the wake of the recent wave of blasts, in Indian cities, police said.

SIMI's Treasurer Mohammad Ali -- a local resident -- was caught recently near Bhopal and is remanded in police custody. Details furnished by him during interrogation led to the arrest of Shabbir yesterday.

[Avinash R]

Not directly linked to the delhi blasts.
The deobandis are spreading their terror and hate agenda to other parts of the nation.
recently some members of a manipur based muslim terror outfit were caught by police in mysore.
they had come all the way from manipur to pay respects to tipu sultan at his grave.
Any secular dhimmi wonders why jehadis want to pay respects to a 'secular' muslim.

Troops nab five foreigners in Manipur
Imphal | Selasa, Sep 23 2008 IST

Five foreigners were nabbed by the troops of 31 Assam Rifles of 26 Sector under HQ IGAR (South) located at Permanent Vehicle Check Post at Khudengthabi in Chandel district in Manipur. Assam Rifles said the persons were apprehended on National Highway-39 near the Manipur-Myanmar border areas on their way to Imphal and they were handed over to police today.

The arrestees identified as Abdul Rehman(28) of Tongyei (Chin state of Myanmar), Md Mubarak(25) of Tongyei, Md Ali(23) of Yangtse, Md Farooque Rafiq(24) of Tongyle and Md Yusuf,(20) of Hapun. It was revealed during the interrogation that the group was led by Abdul Rehman, who claimed of having undergone six years of Islamic training at Madrassa at Deoband in Saharnpur since 1998, sources said.

As per the statement of Abdul Rehman, other four members were being taken from Tongyei Madrassa for further training on Islamic studies, according to the sources.

[Singha]

sounds like BD 'settlers' to me. Manipur is a staunchly yindu vaishnavite state and the second
state in India where most men have the surname "singh". women usually "devi".

[Avinash R]

sounds like BD 'settlers' to me. Manipur is a staunchly yindu vaishnavite state and the second
state in India where most men have the surname "singh". women usually "devi".

No, infiltration of bd and the import of islamic ideology is changing the local demographic of manipur.
manipur already has a few muslim terror outfits.

# Islamic Revolutionary Front (IRF)
# Islamic National Front (INF)
# United Islamic Liberation Army (UILA)
# United Islamic Revolutionary Army (UIRA)
from satp

Note: The person who was supplying drugs to rahul mahajan was a muslim from j&k and was married to a manipuri muslim girl. this person was a part of the long drug network that extends from kashmir to bd border. this route is also used to exchange "islamic ideas" and weapons.

[Sachin]

The same could be happening in Kerala.

As for the church attacks in Ernakulam Rural Dt., one chap has been picked up by the special police team for questioning. And guess who is he, a local commie cadre of CPI(M).

[svinayak]

The same could be happening in Kerala.

As for the church attacks in Ernakulam Rural Dt., one chap has been picked up by the special police team for questioning. And guess who is he, a local commie cadre of CPI(M).

What - no BJP there?

[svinayak]

Taking off from Leonard's post why do the one that must not be named religion's followers have a troubled relationship with the societies in which they live irrespective of the fact whether they are natural or naturalized citizens of the country. Or even that blame lies on Hindu terrorists like me . Sirji I have lived and experienced the days of terror and your posts clearly belie a very naive and media fed perspective of the recent events if even 10 mark my words 10 hindus were to indulge in terror all the Mulayams and Laalus will voluntarily line up for the nearby shakhas . Dont call hooliganism as terror my humble request only.

Lot of NAIVE people post in this forum and their perception of reality is out of touch. There is a tendency to take few examples and to extrapolate to entire country across all communities - result of the media fed fake perception.

One of the first comments are to think of India as a western society and compare. The reality is that Indian society is old and has seen all kinds of crooks.

The use of terrorism on Hindu groups started after 1999 and one of the first article which came up was in The Washington Quarterly.

Very coordinated media effort across all western media and DDM was used to create this bogey on a wide scale. Kargil and Hindu 'terrorism' was compared. Every absurd combination was tried subject to the imagination of the editorial desk. The same wild imagination still shows up in the writing in this forum.

There is a deep guilty feeling inside these souls and they are terrified to confront the reality. Fantasy world is a substitute for their everyday life.

[sum]

One day, the ToI(let) prints a BS article about the poverty causing Azamgarh denizens to commit terror and the next, it contradicts itself...
Link

AZAMGARH: Old timers in Azamgarh remember Abdul Jalil as the friendly neighbourhood smuggler from Sarai-meer, a qasba better known in UP as "Little Dubai", about 20 km from here. Yashica cameras, Sony TVs, tape recorders, imported watches, perfume and other toiletries, Jalil's one-stop shop stocked every luxury.

If he did not have the "maal", the wiry and glib 30-something was sure to produce it within 24 hours with help from friends in Sunauli or Bhairanwa on the Nepal border. Twenty years later, Jalil has become a 'bijnisman', and proud owner of a much improved version of the little kiosk he had earlier. His shop now has cabins, counters and salesmen.

Jalil is not alone. There are scores of local residents whose almost Cinderella-like stories apparently without any godmother have made Saraimeer, on the Azamgarh-Lucknow state highway, somewhat an oasis of prosperity. The qasba is barely a 4-km stretch but springs a glittering surprise after miles of dusty, squalid hamlets with grimy tea stalls, greasy sweetmeat thelas and the occasional shop selling everything from soaps to sarees.

Saraimeer has it all. Multi-storeyed buildings, banks, nursing homes, travel agencies, medical stores, and dozens of PCOs, there are even departmental stores like City Collection or Mobile Point, a Western Union Money Transfer outlet and a series of glitzy eateries. High-end cars line the street. No vest or gamchha wielding crowd here, it's all well-dressed mofussil gentry.

The locals have two heroes Abu Salem, a flamboyant mafia don with a longish list of girlfriends, and Abu Azmi, the Samajwadi Party MP and head of Maharashtra SP unit. Abu Azmi is really from Majeera Patti, a stone's throw from Saraimeer, but the duo's rags to riches story is folklore. They hold tremendous appeal for the youth here, most of whom are neither well-educated nor employed.

Abu Salem's visit to Saraimeer last year to attend his mother's burial is said to have generated mass hysteria. People still breathlessly recall how a kafila of eight cars drove into Pathan tola; how a smiling Salem waved at his fans and how the 10,000-odd spectators wildly cheered their hero upon his home-coming. "If only bhai was allowed to contest the election, Saraimeer would have been a different place," says Basheer, a local baker.

Asim commands no less awe. His 'dileri' (courage) in the face of opposition from Raj Thackeray has earned him many admirers. "Mard ho to aisa," says Basheer. The MP's mansion in Mumbai "where a car can straight away drive up to the third storey", is a much discussed wonder here.

So what are the secrets of its prosperity? For one, more than 75% of households in Saraimeer have one or more members in the Gulf, says R N Tiwari, a retired government officer from Azamgarh. A quick telephone call and most of the youngsters are ready to leave home to pursue their "dreams". The favoured destinations are Kuwait, Qatar, Dubai and UAE. But the Gulf-bound army from Saraimeer and surrounding areas are not professionally qualified. They are in the main bakers, plumbers, mechanics, technicians and unskilled labour.

Azamgarh, says district police chief Ramit Sharma, receives as many as 1,000 to 1,200 passport verification enquiries every month. The number dropped recently after the official machinery became more vigilant, he adds. According to intelligence reports, Azamgarh was the first district apart from Muzaffarnagar to be picked up by the ISI radar in late 1991-92.

The agency, seeking a base in UP, zeroed in on the local residents who thronged the high commission's office for visas, say intelligence officers. Gradually the district became a busy hub for forging fake identities. Sleuths talked about cases where a single person is believed to have visited Pakistan as many as 15 to 17 times a year on fake identities. Though the ISI set up base in other 17 UP towns like Kanpur, Varanasi, Bareilly, Saharanpur, Moradabad, etc, Azamgarh is said to be still its best bet.
There are good reasons for this, say senior police officers. The district is very poor with huge social disparity and illiteracy. It also has, possibly because of all this, a fair sprinkling of Islamic hardliners. One such guide to the gullible youth is Shahid Badr, the former national president of Student Islamic Movement of India (SIMI).

Badr is known to run a unani clinic in Bilariaganj, although he along with 18 SIMI activists were named in an FIR lodged in Azamgarh kotwali in 2000-2001. Azamgarh district's location is also a major plus. The ISI modules for Varanasi and Ayodhya heavily relied on Saraimeer as a safe hideout, sources say.

The area has other dubious claims to fame. Villagers in Bambhaur, about 9 km from Azamgarh town, boast about the Bambhaur pistol that killed Gulshan Kumar, the T-series chief. As a matter of fact, 'kattas' (country-made pistols) here are said to carry the inscription Made in Bambhaur, locals claim. This apart, Dawood Ibrahim is said to provide patronage to his kith and kin and well wishers in Bisaham, a qasba that houses his brother-in-law's family. "The don is very kind and obliging by nature," says one of his businessman acquaintances in Saraimeer.

The sudden prosperity in Sara-meer and half a dozen pockets around have worried authorities. In 1999, the police department initiated a move to identify the source of large incomes among the neo-rich of Belariaganj, Mubarakpur, Saraimeer, Deogaon and Nizamabad. The exercise was dropped all of a sudden, without reason. Where are the millions coming from? For Jalil and his friends, it's not a question they want asked, and the votebank politics of Azamgarh will not allow inquiry beyond a point.

slowly, all the long known facts(hidden away to maintain "secularism and harmony") are spilling out into the open. Few more blasts and im sure even the media will declare war on these scum(they are taking tentative steps towards that at the moment)....I await that day.

So,all the BS about poverty in the terrorist heartland is just that,BS...

[svinayak]

Could you please give us some example where "Hindutva historians" written half truths?

[
The leftist historians have done a lot of damage to us as a society. I am for overhauling our history books and eliminating the influence of this ideology-ridden body of pseudo-scholars. If a truth commission will help alleviate the sense of hurt amongst Hindus, then that deserves my support too. We should however be willing to accept that the truth lies somewhere between the lies and half-truths propounded by both the leftists and the Hindutva historians. Both are guilty of selective using historical facts to build a case that is hard to justify when you put all the facts together. There are largely pseudo-scholars on all sides.

The correct question to ask is what is the foundation on which the leftist/marxist can write about Hindu History. He is biased against Indian civilization.

[kumarn]

BTW that red and white checked shawl is called gamcha in Andhra!

Wow! It's called the same in Bihar/Eastern UP, "gamcha"!

[sanjaychoudhry]

The correct question to ask is what is the foundation on which the leftist/marxist can write about Hindu History. He is biased against Indian civilization.

Correct. Communists are unbelievers. They hate Hinduism and want to uproot it. The books on Hinduism and Hindu history that they write should be thrown in the garbage bin. For some strange reason, Hindus have a habit of inviting unbelievers (Indian communists, Muslims, White Christians) to teach them about their history and religion. It is akin to the Politbureau inviting VHP leaders to teach them about Karl Marx.

[harbans]

Where are the millions coming from? For Jalil and his friends, it's not a question they want asked, and the votebank politics of Azamgarh will not allow inquiry beyond a point.

ISI made FICN seems the answer here.

"The don is very kind and obliging by nature," says one of his businessman acquaintances in Saraimeer.

This is similar to the sentiment practitioners have for Mohammed too.

No wonder Bukhari leads the funeral for the terrorists shot dead by DP. As rightly said, they treat them as Ghazis.

These are the fundamentals that the mass media will have to broach on. Coming there slowly with each blast. The slower society learns the more it suffers. Leftists, Pseudo secularists and WKKs by not comprehending are guilty of allowing more innocent blood on the streets.

[GuruNandan]

The same could be happening in Kerala.

As for the church attacks in Ernakulam Rural Dt., one chap has been picked up by the special police team for questioning. And guess who is he, a local commie cadre of CPI(M).

To corroborate that, saw this piece just now

Church attack in Kerala, A Christian under arrest

http://www.haindavakeralam.com/HKPage.a ... 131&SKIN=K

[shiv]

Shiv asks on this thread why Muslims choose to live in segregated areas. Come on now, Shiv - you cannot possibly be unaware of the near impossibility for even an educated, well-employed Muslim to rent or buy a house/apartment in any non-Muslim area? What have we done to remove this systematic discrimination that exists in our society? Surely there are lots of Muslims who would live in a segregated way even if there were no discrimination. But aren't we to blame at the same time by preventing even those who want to integrate from integrating? What is the justification for the support that many members here openly or tacitly give to the kind of idiots who go around burning churches or terrorizing poor tribals? We are very vocal about saying that nothing - not even personal violence suffered by somebody - can justify the planting of bombs and taking of other lives. And rightly so. But then how can anybody here justify violence even if the allegations on harvesting of souls were true? And what kind of credibility do you have saying anything about terrorism when you support one kind of terrorism (even if it does not involve bombs)? Other than the technical details of how it was done, how is the killing of dozens of innocent people in a bomb blast more heinous than the killings of dozens of innocents in deliberate arson or using swords and knives?.

Hold your horses friend.You are master of "Hindu liberal rhetoric"

Let me quote your words and answer them separately:

Shiv - you cannot possibly be unaware of the near impossibility for even an educated, well-employed Muslim to rent or buy a house/apartment in any non-Muslim area? What have we done to remove this systematic discrimination that exists in our society? Surely there are lots of Muslims who would live in a segregated way even if there were no discrimination. But aren't we to blame at the same time by preventing even those who want to integrate from integrating?

1) Those Muslims who choose to live segregated lives cannot be made to live outside. But whether they are segregated or integrated makes no difference to the fact that Muslim terrorists have been killing hundreds of people in bomb blasts in India. I see no acknowledgment of this in your emotional post and would like to remind you of facts.

Their segregation, their habits, their "stink" (since I must behave like the bigot that you believe you are not) is secondary to the fact that Muslims are the terrorists who are setting off bomb blasts. How easy it is to smear them after one crime. And they will be smeared because terrorism is too serious crime to be forgotten by appeals of self flagellation that you attempt

As a sop to bigoted Hindu sentiment you say

We are very vocal about saying that nothing - not even personal violence suffered by somebody - can justify the planting of bombs and taking of other lives. And rightly so.

And rightly so you say. Is there any need to say anything further?

What are we talking about here? We are talking about terrorism in the name of islam perpetrated by Indian Muslims. And because we are talking about terrorism in the name of islam perpetrated by Indian Muslims you have said "We are very vocal about saying that nothing - not even personal violence suffered by somebody - can justify the planting of bombs and taking of other lives. And rightly so." Am I right, or am I misquoting you?

But then you go on and say

But then how can anybody here justify violence even if the allegations on harvesting of souls were true? And what kind of credibility do you have saying anything about terrorism when you support one kind of terrorism (even if it does not involve bombs)?

You are a clever one aren't you? If I rape someone, and you commit a burglary, both you and I are wrong.

If you accuse me and don't accuse yourself, you are right in accusing me and wrong in not blaming yourself. You are partially correct. You are NOT wholly wrong

If "we" are not condemning Hindu mobs but condemning Muslim terrorists, we are perfectly right in condemning the Muslim terrorists, but wrong in not condemning Hindu mobs.

On a thread where we are discussing the bomb blasts in Delhi, why on earth should anyone accuse Hindu mobs? You are bringing up a subject that we are not talking about but you are still wrong in assuming that we make a mistake in condemning Islam sponsored terrorists. We will continue to do so. Cheerfully. The fact that we have not condemned Hindu mobs makes no difference to the fact that Muslim terrorists have killed hundreds of people. Reminding me that I have failed to condemn Hindu mobs in Karnataka attacking churches does not make me change my mind about what Muslim terrorists have done.

You are welcome to flagellate yourself about Hindu mobs but that has no connection with Islamic terrorism. You are wrong and your type of specious argument is increasingly causing anger and I am glad to note that Hindu bigotry can only increase with the thoughtless logic you use. Your type of viewpoint bends to violence and coercion. Violence and coercion by Hindus is better than listening to meaningless claptrap.

No matter what Hindus have done to churches, it does not take away what Muslim terrorists have done. You can mourn what you like but that is your prerogative. Using you skewed logic can only lead to contempt. And more calls for violence and bigotry. Which works well in our country. Hindus are finding out what works best - and when fundamentalism and bigotry work well why discard the best tool in one's hands. Lies and bigotry are well known to Islamic fundamentalists

Other than the technical details of how it was done, how is the killing of dozens of innocent people in a bomb blast more heinous than the killings of dozens of innocents in deliberate arson or using swords and knives?.

Are you asking me? You have to figure this out for yourself. In this democracy with a majority of Hindus, you will soon find which way public opinion swings and you will have the answer to your question. I know what I think. You need to say what you think rather than asking a rhetorical question.

I think that the bomb blasts are more heinous and have done far more damage than the Hindu mobs. What you think is your business?

[shiv]

Abhijit/CRamS: There is no equivalence. But there is a need to be pragmatic. I don't think we will be able to effectively deal with the issue if we do it selectively. I would like a comprehensive end to extremism of all stripes. Else, we will not be able to stamp out the effects of Islamism in our society.

Rubbish.

Your attitudes have been around for decades. You are quick to apologise for Hindu excesses and quick to defend Islamic grievances.

What works in India is violence and threats and a forcible silencing of absurd "moderate voices" such as those you represent. Your views do not work and increasing Hindu anger should be a lesson to you in the self deluding lies that your viewpoint chooses to propagate in drawing parallels where paralllels are absent to all but the most naive (and the most self deluding Hindu "liberals")

[fanne]

Well I wish Humma Hammidda was here. It happens that in around 1857 British had captured Delhi. They also were converting many Indians and it was common to see some Sir John Singh, Sir Smith Gupta. The first day of 1857 revolution, Delhi was held by the revolutionary. The first thing they did was to kill these Sirs, people gladly pointed to their mahals. The lesson was clear, for the next 90 years of occupation (untill 1947 ) no such balant and open conversion was attempted in Delhi.

rgds,
fanne

[Rye]

Since the " indian intellectuals" like Retired judges, marxists, A. Roy and her ilk are one of the main pillars of support for the islamists and terrorists, the least cost option for Hindus to reduce support for islamists is to violently take out these non-muslim "intellectuals". The effect will be two fold -- now these jokers will have reason to be afraid of both hindus and muslims, and maybe they will stop equating terrorism with vandalism for some devious reason. Seeing the pussillanimous reaction of these "secular" types to islamist violence, maybe these scum can be trained to have an equally fearful view of the majority community as well with some targeted violence -- clearly these people have no intention of conducting a truthful and fair dialogue with the majority community. If Brinda Karat is targeted and killed by a hindu mob, that cannot be "communal violence" can it? After all bomb blasts that killed many dozens in a second are the same as running around with a knife, according to some of these worthies.

If the Indian govt. is going to openly work with terrorist sympathizers like Mulayam and his jihadi SP, and allowing terrorist hot-spots like Azamgarh to flourish in the name of "secular" politics, it is time people take the law into their own hands against those who will support terrorism against the public for political gain like all the "secular" hindu politicians in the INC and other parties.

This is just a thought experiment arising from the observation that the lowest cost way to reduce support for islamists without targeting muslims is to target the hindus who support islamic terrorism and pretend that there is such a thing called hindu terrorism, when there is not.

[Singha]

press conf by mumbai police commisioner

- crime branch has arrested 5 more terrorists
- linked to bangalore, ahmedabad blasts
- all from azamgarh, all mussalman
- mostly staying in "cheetah camp" mumbai
- one is a explosives and bomb expert, one is a sw engr trained in pakistan
- 5 lakhs paid in cash reward to the police team
- arrests based on mukhbir informers

[sanjaychoudhry]

What is the source of this passage?

Sita ram goel.

[Rahul M]

http://maloykrishnadhar.com/

his own site. has a lot of articles that are relevant to the discussion here.
highly recommended.

[harbans]

If Hindus now become violent and terrorize any groups - the other groups too will recognize Hindu culture as superior. All the more reason for more bigotry and fundamentalism which is a winning tactic.

Shiv ji while i do understand the point you are making and the logic you've laid down, i think there is a big difference now. Today the equation that military power=cultural superiority has died down. It's because of freer flow of information. Till 20 years ago the flow was very thin. You had fringe liberals like Nehru ruling the country and right wing Hindu groups also in much smaller numbers.

In the past people were impressed with American culture, Urdu lingo, Nawabi style, British mannerisms, simply because these dominated at the barrel of a gun. The fact that they were cultured or not was not clear to most. Except for an elite who were totally impressed, i don't think Muslims were considered cultured by most Hindu's in general. The British and Americans were. Common people only saw snippets of that culture. Amrika return or UK return used to be big 30 years ago. Like the Soviet Union, do you know you could get really pretty girls to bed for a pair of levises, Lifebuoy soap, packet of 555! Similarly levis strauss and raybans used to awe folks in socialist India, an American accent used to floor most liberal oriented babes. That was how superficially culture was viewed, not only in India (without a danda) but also in USSR (with a big danda).

Today with a free flow of information, cultural doctrines are exposed to the core. Suddenly people realize what Islam really means, what the Bible says, how shallow Pakistani, Arab culture and society is. How the 100% All American is really 99% idiot. Then comparisons with our own rich heritage and philosophy pales the big military power=better culture axiom. The fancy bluster behind that has been busted by larger and freer flow of information.

Seeing so many Islamic attacks around the world, people in general everywhere are not talking anything high of Islamic culture. It's almost the same opinion across forums world wide.

If we go for tactics that succeeded in the past we stand to lose. No one likes a violent culture. We must have the integrity to deal with terror decisively. If our leaders don't have that integrity today, we have to evolve that leadership.

Your suggestion of trying the Islamic tack i had mentioned in a post here recently saying that BD, SS are taking a leaf out of the Islamic page. Won't work. As today societies don't prefer such violence. We can see that after Gujarat there have been so many terror attacks and no Hindu riots in revenge. And in a way it is good. Becasue more people are thinking like many posters here. We'll see a sea change from dhimmi style reporting also emerging in the next few months or possibly after the next blasts.

So that's something i have a gripe with in todays day and age. Violence and terror only undermine ones culture and heritage. They have for Islam for sure.

JMT..

[munna]

Rahul Mji and Harbansji there is a saying in Punjabi "Rabb Nere Kee Ghusuunn" simply translated it means, what is nearer to you my friend the fist or god? This is an example of Chanakya niti whereby actual violence may not happen but the threat perception from such a thing should be high. Gujarat has had a record of riots and Godhra was witness to several yindoo mass killings in the past. The patience of the people ran out in 2002 and a Pokharan style detonation took place that established the pre eminence of yindoos and put paid to all the pipe dreams of a minority faithful ruling the majority cowardly community. Shivji is not advocating the discredited tactics of peaceful religion but a threat of the same so that no one takes the common SDRE for granted otherwise a thousand Jammus will bloom. JMTP

[fanne]

Well same can be said about a place call Bhagalpur in Bihar. Before that there would be riot every other day. Then cam Bhgalpur and as they say rest is history.
Not that it is the end and nothing will happen again, but nothing has for almost 23 years now.
Same was with India-pak. Until 1971 we had 1947, 65, runn of Kutch etc etc (many intrusions in the east). After 1971, it was almost 28 years of peace untill Kargil.
rgds,
fanne

[Sridhar]

Shiv,

I seem to have touched a raw nerve there, haven't I. Like I said before, you can silence me and you have shown that you will, but facts don't change. My only suggestion is that you don't put words into my mouth and that you don't use lies to make your points. It devalues the legitimate points you may be making.

I am part of the list you have managed to drive away from the forum after many years of being a (hopefully useful) part of it. Thanks for the consideration you and others have shown over the close to 8 years I have participated on this forum. Thanks for the appreciation and criticism of my contribution here - participation here has helped me improve my ability to articulate and defend my views.

This has become a more homogenous site, where everybody thinks alike. Nothing wrong in that necessarily. Goodbye and good luck.

[munna]

Sridhar this is a typical reaction that most people on the liberal side will face if the fake liberalism is not reined in, what you are witnessing on the forum is a reality on ground. No amount of political and scholarly punditry can hide the fact that Yindoos are hurt and angry! Your arguments stand but are not entirely defensible please do not think the views at the forum are part of some directed plan, it is just a manifestation of the change happening on ground.

[Rahul M]

munna, did you read the articles at the link I gave ? I suppose you know who MK Dhar is.

sridhar sahib, it is very easy to blame other people's biases and such and avoid answering the points that have been raised. if you think your point is correct you have the moral(only moral, not anything else) duty to defend it. who knows, you may even learn something in the process !

[munna]

Must admit have not seen the site yet but did read his book and their were very juicy tid bits in it. Will do it now Rahul M ji

[gandharva]

The news from Nagori



Ashok Malik

As early as March 2008, SIMI general secretary Safdar Nagori's interrogation had offered crucial information on homegrown jihad and its political patrons in Uttar Pradesh. Unwilling to take his statements seriously and worried about the impact of any follow-up action, the UPA Government looked the other way

On Monday, September 22, Mr Manish Tiwari, spokesperson of the Congress, made a fairly sensational claim. Following his arrest in Madhya Pradesh in March 2008, Mr Tiwari said, Safdar Nagori, general secretary of the Students Islamic Movement of India, had told his interrogators that his associates were planning to bomb Ahmedabad.




Based on Nagori's confession, Mr Tiwari said, "The Central Government had provided the Gujarat Government an intelligence input in May warning of possible terror attacks in Ahmedabad." Yet, Chief Minister Narendra Modi "did not act on the intelligence input" and Ahmedabad suffered a series of bombings on July 26.



Mr Tiwari's charge is grave. It is also, say police officers and security specialists who actually questioned Nagori, completely fictional. Nagori offered no specific inputs on possible bomb attacks in Ahmedabad (or Delhi for that matter). Even so, there was much he did say that added to India's knowledge of SIMI and of the cloak-and-dagger world of homegrown jihad.



At least two clues Nagori offered required follow-up action by the Union Government and the intelligence agencies. It appears these clues were rejected out of hand. Far from the Gujarat Government, it was the Congress-led UPA Government that took the Nagori interrogation less seriously than it should have.



Nagori provided the police and intelligence agencies their most comprehensive picture of SIMI yet. He also opened a window to its factionalism. For instance, it was discovered that SIMI had more or less split in 2005.



This was not a conventional divide between 'extremist' and 'moderate' wings. Rather, both factions had equally diabolical jihadi agendas. Tactical differences, a dispute over political patrons, personal egos and even casteism played a role.



Deliberately or otherwise, the Intelligence Bureau decided to view Nagori's statements through the prism of SIMI's internal politics. They decided he was 'framing' rivals rather than offering substantive information. As a result, appropriate steps were not taken.



For instance, Nagori mentioned the name of one Abdul Razzak as the operative who executed the Malegaon bombings (2006) and the Samjhauta Express terrorist strike (2007). The IB refused to take this seriously. An IB official from Delhi told a Madhya Pradesh police team that Nagori was attempting to frame Razzak because of a marriage proposal that had gone sour. There was no evidence against Razzak, he said, and no need to question him or even put out a notice for him. Today, Razzak has disappeared. His family in Indore has no idea where he is.



Razzak was indeed close to one Imran Ansari. Arrested in 2006, Ansari was perhaps the first major homegrown terrorist to come into police custody. He had wanted to marry Nagori's cousin. Nagori did not agree. Among other reasons, Nagori told police interrogators, he thought his status as a 'Rajput Muslim' was superior to the would-be suitor's humble Ansari identity and origins in a weaver community in eastern Uttar Pradesh.



Whatever the reasons, the rejection of the proposal added to the ill-will. SIMI split in 2005, with the cream of its operatives moving into the ambit of an Uttar Pradesh-based factional leader. This person had by then come above ground, sought an arrangement with the Samajwadi Party and decided to establish a formal political presence. Nagori did not like the idea and was left with his rump SIM (dropping the 'India' from SIMI).



It was clear, however, that the Uttar Pradesh-centric faction of SIMI had actually got the cream of the jihadi group's human resource. Take Imran Ansari again. A mechanical engineer by training, he was sent to Malegaon to build modules there. In that city he began an affair with a local girl. Worried that the relationship could compromise the group, Ansari's superiors sent him to Chennai on a punishment posting.



However, Ansari showed a remarkable flair for languages and in three months had mastered Tamil. Impressed, his SIMI bosses now put him in charge of the network in eastern Tamil Nadu and parts of Kerala.



It was obvious from Nagori's answers that the SIMI faction that had been created around a clutch of determined men from eastern Uttar Pradesh was the more dangerous one. It had been intelligent enough to make inroads into a regional party conscious of its Muslim constituency. It had sought to locate its jihad, at least in the short run, within the framework of conventional politics, identifying national parties as the immediate enemies. Simultaneously, it was training a collection of educated and committed recruits to undertake lethal terrorist attacks.



The coincidence is remarkable. The e-mail sent out after the Delhi bombings of September 13 targets the BJP and the Congress and seems to identify with 'third front' politics. The letter and the operation were the work of a group with origins in Azamgarh, eastern Uttar Pradesh. At least one of the conspirators was the son of an SP functionary. So had Nagori been right all along?



Through the summer of 2008, the Centre didn't bother to answer that question. Instead of conducting surveillance missions, the IB satisfied itself with the 'failed marriage offer' theory. The Congress had begun its courtship of the SP, anticipating the break with the Left, and saw no reason to irritate a future ally. Someone, however, forgot to tell Mr Manish Tiwari.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/indexn12.as ... nter_img=1

[gandharva]

A town seething with rage

After the deaths and arrests of the terror suspects, that rage has spiralled — and residents say it will have an even deadlier impact. Angry villagers huddle together facing an onslaught of media attention, in a town seething with rage — and a threat.

“Let me tell you, the entire country will repent, they have started a very dangerous game,” said village elder Mohammed Haroon.

“If they continue to persecute us like this, then it is a time for … a show down,” he says.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... +with+rage

[Gerard]

Branded, ‘that village’ burns

“These boys had all gone to study, they have all been coming home, they were playing cricket right here till the other day, and I was playing with them, all of them, Sajid was only 17 and he went to Delhi only a few months ago after passing school. He had recently come home because he was ill, when did he do all this bomb-making and planting?”

If innocent boys are treated like this, there will be a reaction, there is anger, it will get out,” says Aijaz Ahmed. “This village alone has dozens of boys studying and working in the cities, how must they be feeling as boys belonging here?