China Military Watch

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rajrang
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by rajrang »

RaviBg wrote:China begins training first batch of aircraft carrier fighter pilots
China begins training first batch of aircraft carrier fighter pilots
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Manu Pubby Posted: Sep 20, 2008 at 0119 hrs IST
New Delhi, September 19 Indian maritime security experts are keenly watching China as it starts training its first batch of fighter pilots to operate from the country’s future fleet of aircraft carriers. A small article in a recent issue of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) Daily announced that the first batch of 50 pilots cadets have been inducted at the Dalian Naval Academy to undergo training on ‘ship borne aircraft flight’.

China remains the only major military power that does not possess an aircraft carrier but the country is fast moving towards acquiring a fleet of indigenous carriers and the training programme for pilots is a rare official acknowledgement of the project.

As the article notes, the training programme is a significant milestone in China’s quest for a potent naval force. “The first pilot programme of recruiting pilot cadets is an important decision of the PLA Navy to realise a strategic transformation in the new period,” it says.

The news is being keenly watched by Indian maritime security policy makers as it gives an insight into China’s secretive aircraft carrier project. The first batch of pilots undergoing training on ‘basic theories of surface ship and flight’ will pass out from the academy in four years ¿ indicating that China will have a potent training platform for actual ship borne fighters by that time

As reported by The Indian Express, the Indian Navy also estimates that China will get its first functional aircraft carrier — a refurbished Soviet era Kiev class warship — by 2012 and will use it exclusively to train Navy personnel.

Incidentally, the Russian origin carrier, which has been renamed as the ‘Shilang’, has been transferred to the Dalian Naval Academy and is being fitted with a Chinese power plant. The Indian Navy believes that the carrier will never be able to function as a full fledged warship but will be used to carry out basic landing and take off practice.

While China is fast moving towards acquiring an aircraft carrier, analysts say that it could take nearly two decades ¿ the time required to train crews and fine tune operations aboard warships of this size - to have a fully operational fleet.

The US also estimates that China is capable of starting construction of an indigenous aircraft carrier by the end of the decade. The latest Pentagon report on the Chinese military, however, says that the country ‘could not have an operational, domestically-produced aircarft carrier before 2015’.

I usually do not like coincidences - India will be getting the Gorshkov from Russia in 2012 - the same year that China will be receiving its carrier a Kiev class warship from Russia in 2012. What makes the coincidence notable is the fact that the Indian carrier was "suddenly" delayed by many years to 2012.
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by sum »

the same year that China will be receiving its carrier a Kiev class warship from Russia in 2012.
IIRC, China has that carrier in its possession and was bought as a floating casino. I think the article means that the ship with Chinese powerplant will be fully up by 2012...
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by Philip »

China will in the second half of the next decade start serious carrier ops as its first carriers come into service.It has acquired an extensive number of decommissioned carriers over the past ostensibly for "shipbreaking" and other non-military purposes,but actually to study the design of the carriers before designing and building their own.The Chinese are past masters at reverse engineering,which has in recent times pissed off the Russians,who have been denied royalties on their reverse engineered Chinese variants of a variety of weapon systems and technology.Until its carrier task forces and their large surface vessel escorts come into service,its thrust is in its sub fleet which is expansing at a phenomenal rate.Along with this expansion is the expansion in Chinese sub operations,getting bolder by the day,especially in the Pacific,shadowing US and Japanese naval forces in particular.Here is a report on the latest incident off the Japanese coast.

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news ... f3735da197
China's submarine fleet projects Beijing's power
Jonathan Manthorpe, Vancouver Sun
Published: Friday, September 26, 2008

Soon after dawn two weeks ago the captain of the Japanese destroyer Atago was on the bridge of his ship cruising within territorial waters off southwestern Japan when he saw something in the water about a kilometre away.

"Isn't that a periscope?" he asked.

Crew detected the target with the ship's state-of-the-art sonar. They then "pinged" what they took to be a submarine with their targeting sonar.

Under the rules of the sea the submarine should then have surfaced and displayed its national flag or faced being attacked by the Japanese warship with depth charges or torpedoes.

But, as the submarine captain was doubtless well aware, Japanese armed forces are heavily constrained by the country's pacifist constitution.

The submarine sped off, immune from attack, and revived a sharp debate in Japan about the constraints on the military at the time of a substantial arms race in Asia.

The Japanese believe, after talks with United States allies, that the submarine was Chinese and part of a now large naval force Beijing has been building and deploying in recent years to back its claim to be a regional power.

Indeed, Beijing has put special emphasis on creating a large and sophisticated submarine fleet as the cheapest and most effective way of projecting power well beyond China's coastal waters.

China's submarine fleet is now one of the world's largest with nearly 85 vessels. More than that, old and unreliable boats mostly acquired from the old Soviet Union are being rapidly replaced by modern submarines armed with highly sophisticated anti-ship missiles and radar-dodging cruise missiles able to attack land targets.

Beijing is even building at least five ballistic missile submarines, each carrying 12 intercontinental missiles and each missile having three nuclear warheads.

Meanwhile Japan has 16 submarines and no plans to build more and the American Pacific Fleet has 35 submarines, the world's most modern.

Beijing's emphasis on naval construction in recent years raises many eyebrows among military planners in Asian and Pacific Ocean nations because the intentions behind this huge investment in military power are so unclear.

It was again a central topic at the Maritime Security Challenge '08 conference of experts on Asian naval issues organized by Canada's Maritime Forces Pacific at Victoria last week.

At first the supposition was that Beijing's naval expansion aimed at backing its threats to invade and capture the independent nation state of Taiwan.

But the development of China's navy, both of surface warships and submarines, has now gone well beyond what is necessary to invade Taiwan and deter the island's main ally, the U.S., from rushing to its aid.

The vulnerability of the U.S. navy to attack from Chinese submarines was demonstrated with stark clarity in October 2006. A Song-class diesel-electric submarine shadowed a U.S. battle group led by the aircraft carrier Kitty Hawk and was only detected when it surfaced close to the carrier to reveal its presence.

That incident undermined the confidence with which U.S. strategists always talk about the superiority of their naval technology.

of a massive submarine base hollowed out of the cliffs of China's Hainan island in the South China Sea.

The base at Sanya can house about 20 submarines and the entrance is so large they can leave and return submerged so as to be undetectable by satellites.

The base comes into operation at a time of increased tension between Beijing and other countries, especially Vietnam, around the South China Sea. Beijing claims most of the sea is Chinese territorial waters, and therefore it owns the resources underneath it.

Beijing's determination to project power goes well beyond its claims to the South China Sea, however.

China's economic well-being and therefore its internal security is now wholly dependent on sea-borne trade. And most of that trade, especially vital imports of oil, come across the Indian Ocean and through the South China Sea.

This has brought China's navy face-to-face with regional rival India, which is rapidly developing its own substantial maritime force into one that can make its presence felt throughout the Indian Ocean and even into Southeast Asia.

So does the coming into operation earlier this year of a massive submarine base hollowed out of the cliffs of China's Hainan island in the South China Sea.

The base at Sanya can house about 20 submarines and the entrance is so large they can leave and return submerged so as to be undetectable by satellites.

The base comes into operation at a time of increased tension between Beijing and other countries, especially Vietnam, around the South China Sea. Beijing claims most of the sea is Chinese territorial waters, and therefore it owns the resources underneath it.

Beijing's determination to project power goes well beyond its claims to the South China Sea, however.

China's economic well-being and therefore its internal security is now wholly dependent on sea-borne trade. And most of that trade, especially vital imports of oil, come across the Indian Ocean and through the South China Sea.

This has brought China's navy face-to-face with regional rival India, which is rapidly developing its own substantial maritime force into one that can make its presence felt throughout the Indian Ocean and even into Southeast Asia.

jmanthorpe@vancouversun.com
© The Vancouver Sun 2008
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by Shankar »

Chinese astronaut takes historic walk
Sep 27, 2008 9:20 PM

Astronaut Zhai Zhigang became the first Chinese man to walk in space on Saturday, clambering out of China's Shenzhou VII space craft in a technological feat that Beijing wants the world to marvel about.

"I'm feeling quite well. I greet the Chinese people and the people of the world," Zhai said as he climbed out of the craft, his historic achievement carried live on state television.

Zhai, the 41-year-old son of a snack-seller chosen for the first "extra-vehicular activity," unveiled a small Chinese flag, helped by colleague Liu Boming, who also briefly popped his head out of the capsule.

Zhai safely returned inside the craft after about 15 minutes. The walk marked the highpoint of China's third manned space journey, which has received blanket media coverage.

Zhai wore a $4.4 million Chinese-made suit weighing 120 kilograms. Liu wore a Russian-made one and acted as a back-up.

The risky manoeuvre is a step towards China's longer-term goal of assembling a space lab and then a larger space station.

The fast-growing Asian power wants to be sure of a say in how space and its potential resources are used.

China's Communist Party leaders are also celebrating the latest space mission, hailing the country's achievements in a year in which Beijing has staged a successful Olympics and coped with a devastating earthquake in Sichuan.

"On this flight, Chinese people's footprints will be left in space for the first time," stated a commentary by the official Xinhua news agency. "This will give the world yet something else to marvel about China in this extraordinary year of 2008."

The astronauts embarked on their walk after receiving a clean bill of health from doctors on the ground at mission control, Xinhua said.

Zhai's suit has 10 layers and takes up to 15 hours to assemble and put on.

China's first manned spaceflight was in 2003. A second, two-manned flight followed in 2005. The only other countries that have sent people into space are Russia and the United States.

Shenzhou VII took off on Thursday and is due to land on the northern steppes of Inner Mongolia on Sunday.

While out in space, Zhai will make tests and launch a football-sized "companion satellite" to monitor the walk and broadcast it back to Earth, where hundreds of millions of Chinese are likely to be glued to their televisions.
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by sum »

All said and done as to whether there was substantial Russian "assistance" or it was purely indigenous, congrats to the Chinese space agency on their feat!!!
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by Mark Schwartzbard »

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 537865.cms

Although the "headline" is crude not mentioning the real fact about how the chinese bahaved in the NSG, the skeletons are now comming out of the closset.

The particular statement "What had particularly bothered the Indian side was the refusal by the Chinese leadership — Hu Jintao and Wen Jiabao — to take a phone call from PM Singh. "

When the chinese look down on the Indian establishment with contempt, I am confused as to why New Delhi gives the Chinese credit in all the misgivings that occur on the boundary and the NSG?

Is there somekind of public opinion on how should the Govt and Indian people approach the Chinese and their leadership going forward, given the fact that the Indian Govt ( under the demise of the CPI and M ) gave them such a big hearted welcome and security for the safe passage of Games.? that the chinese even went further requesting the Indian Govt not to meet the Dalai lama and constantly requiring the Indian Govt to confirm it's standing on Tibet?
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by Mark Schwartzbard »

Given that this is a China thread and the military and the economy to a larger extent does bear heavily on the Stragtegic scenerio.

I would like to discuss the following points.

1) The Indian Govt should bring the whole question about Taiwan, Tibet, AP and Aksai Chin Boundary, and Northern regions of China onto the table of discussion. Meaning India recognising the break away of China into smaller states ( especially Taiwan and Tibet and North East areas of China ) at least on the talks. (how will this impact the Chinese ?)

2) The Govt of India should put pressure on the Chinese not to sell arms to the Pakistan or else similar arms sales would be given by Govt. to Chinese opponents. (Vietnam and a few others in the Asia pacific region )
Further to this build strategic relations with Mongolia, Japan and Australia. (Think you already have with Russia )

3) The Govt should emphasize it's sphere of Influence on the IOR and states in the regions ( including neighbourhood states of Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri lanka and more to Burma ).

4) Although Pakistan is an idealogical ( given in Indian context) friend with China, more dependency on the Indian economy would make them look at their big neighbour India than China.

Although these are bold moves it would require the Indian Govt much help and support from the common man and all parties, than infighting which I often read in the Subcontinent.

Do you guys have any thought on the above.?
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by kit »

Cross posting this.. there s something about the Indian military projects.Are the chinese able to manipulate the Indian procurement / induction of weapon platforms via their industrial network ? Wont that be a type of assymetric warfare ? Delays are expected but inordinate ones ? right from phalcons to the Gorky ..
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by Ajay K »

Folks, JH-7A is more capable compared to our Jags. Meet the new Xiang Feng(Flying Phoenix) - 100 seater passenger jet.
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by Lalmohan »

Ajay K wrote:Folks, JH-7A is more capable compared to our Jags.
based on the info on that link, i am not sure how you come to that conclusion? please help me understand...
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by Ajay K »

Lalmohan
Post subject: Re: China Military Watch

Ajay K wrote:
Folks, JH-7A is more capable compared to our Jags.


based on the info on that link, i am not sure how you come to that conclusion? please help me understand...
Ajay K wrote:Folks, JH-7A is more capable compared to our Jags.
based on the info on that link, i am not sure how you come to that conclusion? please help me understand...

JH-7A
------
Glass cockpit
Pulse Doppler multi mode fire control radar
X-band radar with look down and shoot down capability(terrain following capability also)
Dual redundant digital FBW
11 external store points
Max weapon load: 5000 kgs
Range: 900 km; 560 miles

Jaguar
------
DARIN
FLIR
7 external store points
Max weapon load: 4763 kgs
Range: 1408 km; 875 miles
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by vivek_ahuja »

Ajay K wrote:JH-7A
------
Max weapon load: 5000 kgs
Range: 900 km; 560 miles

Jaguar
------
Max weapon load: 4763 kgs
Range: 1408 km; 875 miles
The above comparison is overly simplistic. Put it simply, things like range, endurance speeds and payload are all mission and altitude dependent. For example, running at maximum continuous power for maximum speed will yield a different range etc than compared to cruising at optimum fuel efficiency. At some point you might need either of the two, and at different altitudes too. In addition you have different payload+fuel combination involved. Is the above clean configuration or not? That affects it too! and the list goes on and on and on.

The point is that the above mean that statements like "Aircraft 'X' is better than 'Y'" is meaningless without a context.

Allow me to elaborate with an example:

As it turns out, the JH-7 and the Jaguar comparison analysis is a classic. More so because the aircraft are similar (More than looks). But the JH-7 is a far larger bird than the Jaguar. To compensate it has some large but also fuel efficient bleeding-turbojets (or low bypass turbofans if you will). The size comparison from an aerodynamics POV is almost 1:2 between the Jaguar and the JH-7.

So how do we compare the two?

To do this, let me set up the following mission details:
a) The aircraft aim for optimum range (in other words, there is no hurry)
b) The aircraft must run on dry power only (No afterburners; any choice of value from zero power to full dry power)
c) No auxillary fuel tanks (No drop tanks)
d) Full Payload to be carried. (Renders both aircraft performance versus altitude far lesser than that required for Service Ceiling)

Based on this setup, you will get a performance versus altitude charts for range, endurance etc. I have put up the charts below:

Image

Image

Image

You can make clear observations from these charts. I have listed some of them below:
a) The Jaguar maintains much higher speeds than the JH-7 even when trying to maximize range, which it beats the JH-7 anyway until 8000m (25000 ft). Beyond that altitude the JH-7 overtakes on range but still loses out on speed. In other words, the Jaguar can not only make longer distance strike missions than the JH-7, it does so much more quickly. If the JH-7 were to increase range to try and match the Jaguar, the difference between its range and that of the Jag would increase tremendously.

b) Endurance is on the side of the JH-7 thanks to its fuel-efficient turbofans throughout the range of altitudes. In other words, if both the Jag and the JH-7 were to be loitering around and not worrying about range, the JH-7 would be able to hang around much longer and if you go beyond 8000m, for significantly longer loitering periods.

Bottom-line: at Low altitudes, the Jaguar comes out on top in agreement with what it was designed for. The JH-7 comes out better if operated at high altitudes.

But mind you, both are being tagged for maritime strike Ops. In this game you need long range and endurance at low altitudes depending on various mission designs. The JH-7 beats the Jaguar for endurance, but loses to the Jaguar on range. At low altitudes its range loss is significantly higher than the gain in endurance over the Jag.

You take your choices as you see fit.

-Vivek
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by Hari Sud »

This paper may be of interest to China watcher. The author is Hongkong based pro-China columinist.

http://www.upiasia.com/Security/2008/10 ... mies/3728/


China’s prime potential enemies
By Andrei Chang
Column: Military MightPublished: October 24, 2008TOOLBAR


Hong Kong, China —
China’s military preparedness and strategic deployment of weaponry take into consideration a whole range of potential enemies, an analysis of internal People’s Liberation Army documents has revealed.

In order of importance – that is, the likelihood of actual military engagement – those enemies are Taiwan, the United States and Japan (as potential defenders of Taiwan), India, Vietnam, Southeast Asia, Russia and NATO.

Chinese military journals consistently criticize the United States for seeking to isolate and contain China. The PLA’s indignation and frustration over this perceived U.S. interference is a reflection of its ambition to become a global hegemon, or at least a regional one.

As evidence of U.S. hostility, the military journals cite Washington’s sales of arms to Taiwan, its military alliance with Japan, its support of NATO’s eastward expansion, the stationing of a permanent force in Afghanistan, the expansion of its nuclear arsenal and its influence in restricting European arms sales to China. The journals claim that these U.S. actions all pose a direct or indirect threat to China’s national security.

As for Japan, despite warmer political relations between the two countries in recent months, there are two prickly issues that will not be easily resolved. One is the territorial fight over the Diaoyutai Islands – which Japan calls the Senkakus – and the other is the dispute over the exact location of the border in the East China Sea, in the midst of rich oil and gas reserves that both sides claim.

For now the two sides are working together to develop these resources, but the lack of a legally defined border makes the situation unpredictable. Also, China remains highly wary of any Japanese steps to strengthen its military.

On the Indian front, mistrust between the two countries has become more heated. New Delhi is wary of China’s increased deployment of ballistic missiles aimed at India, the activities of the Chinese navy in the Indian Ocean, and China’s intentions with regard to territorial disputes.

On the other hand, China is also keeping an eye on India’s active development of its Flame III intermediate-range ballistic missile, the activities of the Indian navy in the South China Sea, and India’s constantly changing attitude with regard to border disputes.

Differences between China and Vietnam focus on disputed maritime territories. At the same time, China is watching closely Vietnam’s rapprochement to India and the United States.

As for ASEAN countries, they too have disputes with China over territories at sea. China thinks it will eventually recapture the Nansha Islands – better known as the Spratlys – located between Vietnam and the Philippines and claimed by both, as well as by China. The area is a rich fishing ground and may also contain oil and gas. There may one day be a struggle over ownership of these islands.

In the midst of these disputes, since the mid-1990s Chinese military strategists have focused on one key issue – the economic, political and national security benefits of expanding the military and centralizing all forces to “solve the Taiwan issue.” Their position was that after Taiwan was reunited with the mainland, there would be additional economic benefits and national security gains resulting from the military build-up.

One argument held that the South China Sea disputes could be easily resolved when the time was right. Toward that end, there was a need to develop major maritime combat platforms, including an aircraft carrier.

As far as Russia is concerned, China is concerned about the resurgence of extreme nationalism within Russia, which could lead to territorial demands on China.

China is also constantly worried about NATO’s eastward expansion. The existence of NATO forces in neighboring countries would undermine its border security.

Against this background of regional tensions, improved relations across the Taiwan Strait are not reason enough for the PLA to relax its level of preparedness. All of the issues outlined above have frequently been discussed in numerous military and diplomatic documents over the past 10 years.

China’s development and deployment of military equipment corresponds to all the conflict scenarios it foresees. First, priority attention has been placed on the development of combat equipment related to the air force, navy and landing operations, all of which are directed at Taiwan.

Second, in response to possible intervention by U.S. forces, China has actively developed and deployed intercontinental ballistic missiles, intermediate-range ballistic missiles, anti-satellite weapons, space warfare capabilities, and ballistic-missile and attack submarines.

Third, to cope with frontlines in Vietnam and India, China has developed mountain warfare armored vehicles and medium- and short-range ballistic missiles. An upgraded IRBM is now deployed in Yunnan province, which borders Vietnam.

Fourth, in the direction of Japan, the PLA has deployed DF-3A IRBMs in coastal Shandong province and reinforced the combat capabilities of its No.19 Division based in that region.

Fifth, with an eye to Southeast Asia and India, a large submarine base has been established on Hainan Island and electronic surveillance stations set up on the Xisha Islands in the South China Sea at China’s southern tip.

Sixth, in response to the presence of U.S. and NATO forces in Afghanistan, China has sped up the deployment of HQ-9 long-range ground-to-air missiles in major metropolitan centers and strengthened its No. 6 Fighter Division in the Lanzhou Military Region of central China. In the direction of Russia, China is now actively developing and upgrading new main battle tanks and armored vehicles.

Given the need to cover all the scenarios described above, it is likely that China’s military spending will continue to rise, with the 2009 military budget reflecting at least a 10 percent increase over this year.

Some equipment intended for combat operations against Taiwan will be replaced, and there will be some adjustments in the deployment of this equipment. The pressure to maintain a vigilant “military deterrence” against Taiwan is expected to continue.

It is worth noting, however, that with the warming of cross-strait relations and the balance of military power in the Taiwan Strait already tilted in China’s favor, the PLA will likely focus its military build-up in other directions, particularly in the upgrading of long-range military projection capability.

Close attention should be paid to China’s building of a new aircraft carrier fleet, its development and deployment of more ICBMs, SSBNs, new bombers and new-generation fighters. The Chinese military industry will also take this opportunity to put greater effort and expenditure into upgrading and expanding its research for the development of new weapons systems.

--

(Andrei Chang is editor-in-chief of Kanwa Defense Review Monthly, registered in Toronto, Canada.)
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by Raj Malhotra »

Re Vivek

Very interesting chart. All the more interesting as I was trying to find out similar details about the comparison of Tu-142, P-3 with P-8 over internet but not suceeding, so I can trouble you :mrgreen: . Can you compare them similarly? :?:
Thanx in adv
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by rajsunder »

sum wrote:
the same year that China will be receiving its carrier a Kiev class warship from Russia in 2012.
IIRC, China has that carrier in its possession and was bought as a floating casino. I think the article means that the ship with Chinese powerplant will be fully up by 2012...
The one thats in the possession of China is a Admiral Kuznetsov Class carrier not keiv, BTW Vikramaditya is a keiv class carrier.
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by Kartik »

Our Russian friends are at it again..Chinks will likely be challenging our MiG-29Ks with upgraded Su-33s
China considers next-generation Su-33s for aircraft carrier programme

China's People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) is close to reaching a decision on the procurement of aircraft for its aircraft carrier programme, Russian industry sources have told Jane's.

Negotiations between the PLAN and the Komsomolsk-na-Amure Aviation Production Association (KnAAPO) in Russia have been held intermittently for several years, with the Chinese military said to be unsure whether to purchase a version of the Sukhoi Su-33 carrier-capable fighter or develop its own carrier aircraft based on the Chengdu J-10.

Russian sources have now told Jane's that under the current proposal the Russian in-service Su-33 would be put back into production and the PLAN would acquire 14 of this type to be used for the training phase of the programme.

This option will see a carrier aircraft delivered to the PLAN in the shortest possible timeframe.

The development of a new-configuration aircraft to be used in actual carrier operations would take place in parallel with this training programme.

"The next step will be to modernise the Su-33, which was first designed in the late 1980s, with a new set of state-of-the-art onboard systems," a KnAAPO representative told Jane's on the eve of the biennial Air Show China in late October. "What this new aeroplane is most likely to be is a combination Su-33 airframe with a radar, avionics and cockpit instrumentation that is a 'developed' configuration based on the Su-30MK2, and this will be the PLAN's operational version."
link
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by Rahul M »

but long expected. too bad the flankers were too heavy for vik's lifts.
though the new 29k's would give the vanilla su-33 a run for its money.
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by ramana »

Kartik
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by Kartik »

Rahul M wrote:but long expected. too bad the flankers were too heavy for vik's lifts.
though the new 29k's would give the vanilla su-33 a run for its money.
But they're not getting vanilla Su-33s for the production variants..the production variants will be built to the Su-30MK2 standard, avionics wise, which means no PESA Bars or Irbis, although that could change later on..and Su-30MK2s although no MKIs, are quite easily a match for the MiG-29K and they may have longer detection ranges, and definitely greater range, endurance and payload (don't know about bring-back load). All in all, a significantly enhanced threat level for the IN.

the vanilla Su-33s will be used only to train the first batches of PLAN carrier pilots, similar to how the IAF used Su-30K/MKs to train the first squadron of pilots before the upgraded MKIs entered service.
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by vavinash »

Not if the Mig-29k gets the Zhuk-AE. I for one do not believe the varyag can be turned into an operational carrier. It will stay that way for a long time. PLAN would be better of starting from scratch.
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by neerajb »

In order of importance – that is, the likelihood of actual military engagement – those enemies are Taiwan, the United States and Japan (as potential defenders of Taiwan), India, Vietnam, Southeast Asia, Russia and NATO.
Too paranoid. The list of enemies almost cover the whole world :rotfl:
On the other hand, China is also keeping an eye on India’s active development of its Flame III intermediate-range ballistic missile, the activities of the Indian navy in the South China Sea, and India’s constantly changing attitude with regard to border disputes.
Fire III would have been better :lol:

Cheers.....
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by vivek_ahuja »

Raj Malhotra wrote:Re Vivek

Very interesting chart. All the more interesting as I was trying to find out similar details about the comparison of Tu-142, P-3 with P-8 over internet but not suceeding, so I can trouble you :mrgreen: . Can you compare them similarly? :?:
Thanx in adv
Saar,

That's not a problem, but the only issue is the time requirement. You see, each aircraft must be "loaded" into my program for the program to spit out this kind of data comparisons. The loading is the main time consuming part. For example, the Jaguar analysis above that I had posted required taking data from dozens of websites and so forth before loading it into the program. In the end, the program "saw" the Jag as shown in the image below:

Image

Now, I believe this aerodynamics model to be close enough for the Jag, but the bigger the aircraft, the tougher the data requirements. Hopefully I will get some free time from work to surf through the open sources on the Tu-142. It would be a nice little exercise to develop a TU-142 sized aircraft into a model like the one above. :twisted:

-Vivek
Kartik
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by Kartik »

now turns out that the planned PLAN Su-33 purchase will have upto 50 Su-33s equipped with the Irbis-E or an AESA
ARMS-TASS reported with reference to Russia’s sources of Jane's Defence Weekly.
The respective negotiations have continued for a few years, as China’s Navy couldn’t finally decide whether to acquire a shipboard modification of Russia’s Su-33 fighter or to proceed with elaborating a jet under the national project based on J-10 fighter.

According to sources with Russia’s industrial community, the serial Su-33 has been returned to production and China intends to acquire 14 jets of this type to use them for training pilots of jets based on the aircraft carriers.

The next effort under the project will be upgrading Su-33 that was designed in late 1980s and installing modern aviation electronics on it. The deal is expected to provide for the acquisition of 36 to 50 Su-33s of new configuration. The contract will set forth an option for additional consignment should China decide to construct the second aircraft carrier.

The jet of new configuration will be developed simultaneously with implementing the program of pilots’ training. The improved model will have a fuselage of Su-33 (shipboard version), a radar, avionics and other equipment of Su-30MK2 fighter. But it will be equipped with devices missed by Su-30MK2, including the improved digital system of flight control, Irbis-E radar with passive phased array or a radar with active array of electric scanning.

The jet will apply new weapons designed for Su-35 fighter, including 3M-14AE Club air-to-air missile or improved 3M-54AE/AE1 modification.
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by Singha »

thats why spending indian money on pakfa is a big mistake. all the pakfa tech
will be sold to prc in due course.

we should buy the al41 engine and gearbox thats all. but being a A2G bird, MCA
would as well work with 2 x ge414 / ej200 engines.
Raj Malhotra
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by Raj Malhotra »

Thanks for even considering the request which would be so time consuming. Till then, just a small question, what would be most efficient speed/altitude of P-8 (737) if it just wants to loiter compared to prop planes like Tu-142, P-3. Just a rough idea would do (for the time being :mrgreen: )

vivek_ahuja wrote:
Raj Malhotra wrote:Re Vivek

Very interesting chart. All the more interesting as I was trying to find out similar details about the comparison of Tu-142, P-3 with P-8 over internet but not suceeding, so I can trouble you :mrgreen: . Can you compare them similarly? :?:
Thanx in adv
Saar,

That's not a problem, but the only issue is the time requirement. You see, each aircraft must be "loaded" into my program for the program to spit out this kind of data comparisons. The loading is the main time consuming part. For example, the Jaguar analysis above that I had posted required taking data from dozens of websites and so forth before loading it into the program. In the end, the program "saw" the Jag as shown in the image below:

Image

Now, I believe this aerodynamics model to be close enough for the Jag, but the bigger the aircraft, the tougher the data requirements. Hopefully I will get some free time from work to surf through the open sources on the Tu-142. It would be a nice little exercise to develop a TU-142 sized aircraft into a model like the one above. :twisted:

-Vivek
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by andy B »

Singha wrote:thats why spending indian money on pakfa is a big mistake. all the pakfa tech
will be sold to prc in due course.

we should buy the al41 engine and gearbox thats all. but being a A2G bird, MCA
would as well work with 2 x ge414 / ej200 engines.
Singha saar,

I am not a big supporter of the PAK FA, however the "Indian" specific version will have customised avionices with Yindoo/Yehudi mix???? Right???
Which means it probably will have different perfomance (better???) than the Russian PAK FA in terms of Radar and Avionics....
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by wesley »

Just a reminder to everyone to keep an eye on their calendars for the upcoming Zhuhai Air Show, which will be running the 4-9 November.

This will mark the first air show appearance for China's J-10 fighter - which China will be marketing to prospective buyers as the F-10. Hopefully some additional details regarding the airplane's performance will be released as part of the trade literature. We should also be watching for any news regarding China's next generation of air-to-air missiles.
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2008 ... 134832.htm
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i= ... =AIR&s=TOP

India's Surya Kiran Aerobatic Team is also scheduled to perform.
http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=44275
http://www.domain-b.com/defence/air_spa ... rshow.html
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by sum »

Thanks a ton for the pics, Soutik saar...
Finally, some close up glimpses of the "mythical" J-10!!!!

The cockpit of the JF-17 does look pretty neat(and uncluttered) with the three huge LCD displays though all the analog stuff and loads of manual flip switches etc seem to have been pushed to the side(to make the cockpit look photogenic??).
Last edited by sum on 04 Nov 2008 21:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by neerajb »

chinese J-10 first demonstration in zhuhai airshow



Either the pilot is being conservative or this plane is not agile. Even a Tu-160 could out maneuver this flying brick.

Cheers....
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by Bharadwaj »

neerajbhandari wrote:
Either the pilot is being conservative or this plane is not agile. Even a Tu-160 could out maneuver this flying brick.

Cheers....

:rotfl: . All the propaganda till date has the plane doing very limited and controlled stuff-rolls etc. One wonders if the Chinese have accepted the bird with a limited envelope. There were rumors of a crash in the early stages of testing...
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by Vikram_S »

Kartik wrote:
Rahul M wrote:but long expected. too bad the flankers were too heavy for vik's lifts.
though the new 29k's would give the vanilla su-33 a run for its money.
But they're not getting vanilla Su-33s for the production variants..the production variants will be built to the Su-30MK2 standard, avionics wise, which means no PESA Bars or Irbis, although that could change later on..and Su-30MK2s although no MKIs, are quite easily a match for the MiG-29K and they may have longer detection ranges, and definitely greater range, endurance and payload (don't know about bring-back load). All in all, a significantly enhanced threat level for the IN.

the vanilla Su-33s will be used only to train the first batches of PLAN carrier pilots, similar to how the IAF used Su-30K/MKs to train the first squadron of pilots before the upgraded MKIs entered service.
su-30 mk2 can track 3 sq mtr targets @ 100 km
mig 29 k can track at same distance

but advantage of mig-29 k is it has much lower signature and will have first look advantage, but su-30 mk2 has payload + endurance advantage and also it is land based fighter

i would not believe any report of irbis equipped su-33 for simple reason

there were 100 of such reports of su-30 mk3 equipped with zhuk ms and/bars radar
but russia denied both of them dashing both niip and niir hopes

same case here
russia will not export anything state of art++ to its neighbour when it has not got better
china fanboys on net will be very hopeful but it will ultimately disappear

what is possible is n001 v variant like on russia su-27 sm upgrade
it gives long range capability to su-27sm but is behind modern radars like bars
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by Vikram_S »

this shows the capability of chinese to copy
this is virtual copy of jas-39 c cockpit (initial batch)

i am amaze by the fact that chinese continue to copy and copy and copy
innovation seems a very rare thing to them

russian sources say j-10 is mixture of "russia, israeli and western" in other words copied, copied
at end of day they are hurting own innovation by not coming up with special china IP
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by Vikram_S »

nice looking aircraft

but, that large intake is a perfect reflector for radar

this plane will have a radar cross section of a heavy fighter

and unlike russia there are no reports of decade of rcs reduction which russia finally managed to get rcs down by even spraying intake and treating engine compressor with special robotic spray

radar blocker via baffle = intake problems unless designed in from start like f/a-18 E

in BVR this plane is at serious disadvantage

it has radar dia = mig 29 but signature much bigger and i doubt whether it can sustain power requirements of even higher power radar on one engine to compensate for bigger PA of su-30 mki

power aperture: radar (aperture size) * peak power

this pic shows what i am talking of

http://i34.tinypic.com/10y1esn.jpg
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by Vikram_S »

Related link: http://www.janes.com/news/defence/syste ... _1_n.shtml
China considers next-generation Su-33s for aircraft carrier programme

By Reuben F Johnson

28 October 2008

China's People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) is close to reaching a decision on the procurement of aircraft for its aircraft carrier programme, Russian industry sources have told Jane's.

Negotiations between the PLAN and the Komsomolsk-na-Amure Aviation Production Association (KnAAPO) in Russia have been held intermittently for several years, with the Chinese military said to be unsure whether to purchase a version of the Sukhoi Su-33 carrier-capable fighter or develop its own carrier aircraft based on the Chengdu J-10.

Russian sources have now told Jane's that under the current proposal the Russian in-service Su-33 would be put back into production and the PLAN would acquire 14 of this type to be used for the training phase of the programme.

This option will see a carrier aircraft delivered to the PLAN in the shortest possible timeframe.

The development of a new-configuration aircraft to be used in actual carrier operations would take place in parallel with this training programme.

"The next step will be to modernise the Su-33, which was first designed in the late 1980s, with a new set of state-of-the-art onboard systems," a KnAAPO representative told Jane's on the eve of the biennial Air Show China in late October. "What this new aeroplane is most likely to be is a combination Su-33 airframe with a radar, avionics and cockpit instrumentation that is a 'developed' configuration based on the Su-30MK2, and this will be the PLAN's operational version."[/b]

this is what i was saying
developed version of su-30 mk2 which is means a developed n001 radar or if russia uncle agrees finally zhuk ms because now irbis and bars > zhuk MS
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by wesley »

neerajbhandari wrote:Either the pilot is being conservative or this plane is not agile.
It's very difficult to judge fighter performance from an air show demo. Most of the maneuvers being shown off have little to do with air combat, and without visual references, it's impossible to judge such key parameters as airspeed, or how tight a turn radius really is.

That being said, I would agree that the air show video appears to be a pretty lame performance. I would chalk that up to the overly conservative nature of the Chinese political and military establishment. They have never been known as great risk takers, and I am sure they all have the videos of the spectactular Russian flight demonstrations from Paris fresh in their minds. Nothing like a fiery ending to get people to line up to buy your latest ejection seat.

The attached Chinese-source article includes a pair of J-10 photos - performing the Cobra Maneuver. Notice the wing-tip contrails which clearly depict the airplane's flight path. It looks like it's legitimate. It is reported that the Chinese chose not to include this in the flight demo at Zhuhai, out of "safety" concerns.
http://news.ifeng.com/mil/special/zhuha ... 62_5.shtml
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by Rahul M »

The attached Chinese-source article includes a pair of J-10 photos - performing the Cobra Maneuver. Notice the wing-tip contrails which clearly depict the airplane's flight path. It looks like it's legitimate. It is reported that the Chinese chose not to include this in the flight demo at Zhuhai, out of "safety" concerns.
ho hum ! very hard to believe on that flimsy evidence. without video, not done.
that pic can easily be done on PS, even I can manage it I think.
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Re: China Military Watch

Post by anishns »

^^^

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

and the Great Wall is up for sale :mrgreen:
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