Internal Security Watch

G Subramaniam · Post by **G Subramaniam** » 05 Oct 2008 07:12

Indiatoday - Confessions of Jamia Islamists
--------------

Zia-ur Rehman, 24

A third year student at Jamia Millia Islamia, accused of planting bombs at Connaught Place and Ahmedabad and providing logistical support.

Image
Zia-ur Rehman says...

"If Allah wants, I'll bomb the market where my mother buys vegetables. She will be sent to paradise."

"Whatever knowledge I have about Islam, I have no regrets about what I did."

"My father told me I'm not his son. He doesn't understand jihad for Allah, and nothing else matters to me."

"I have no regrets about what I did, and the way I did it. Ask them to shoot me for this."

"The jihad is against Maharashtra for ignoring the Srikrishna Report and what happened in Gujarat."

Zia-ur Rehman is sitting with his father, who had also been arrested for forging the rent documents of L-18, Batla House, the infamous flat where the terror module led by Atif lived. The thick chain attached to Rehman's hand is a complete contrast to his frail frame.

He is small, thin, bony, fair, not more then 5'5" tall, and wears an expression of utter disgust on his face, suspicion too, but at the same time, does not seem to care the least about his fate or the fact that he committed mass murder just a week earlier.

His sharp, wide eyes are partially open; hooded, impossible to penetrate. He wears black trousers and an oversized, light shirt that hangs below his waist. His tone is abrasive and he has an unfriendly vibe about him. Yet, when he starts speaking, cold chills run down my spine.

"You planted the bombs?" I ask. "Yes," he says, forcing his eyes open. "Your friend, Nisar, feels that he was taken for a ride by Atif in the name of Allah," I introspect as he leans forward, as if not wanting his family to hear his words.

"Whatever knowledge I have about Islam and what I understand about how things work in this world, I have no regrets about what I did," he whispers. "So, if you had not got arrested, you would have gone on to plant the bombs at Nehru Place as per the plan?" "Yes," he replies without hesitation.

His small frame becomes rigid, the nerves on his frail forearm tense. "It is a jihad, it's a war," he declares. This is followed by my next query—"Who is your enemy?" Rehman parrots without emotion, "This is jihad for Allah, only the privileged get to do it." It is only then that I ask him, "But who is your jihad for Allah against?" He tries to find words to describe his enemy.

His concept of an adversary seems amorphously lost in the deep-rooted sense of insult he feels at belonging to a certain religion. He says, hesitantly, "It is against Maharashtra for ignoring the Srikrishna Report; it is against what happened in Gujarat."

But how would killing people, say in Karol Bagh in Delhi, help target those responsible for say Maharashtra or Gujarat? The question agitates him, his temper flares. Raising his hand to stop me speaking, he says: "I have no regrets about what I did, and the way I did it. Ask them to shoot me for this," he asserts, his thin lips clamped tight.

Did your parents know about it?" "Now they do," is the blunt reply. "My father is upset with me. He told me that I am not his son. He does not understand jihad for Allah, and nothing else matters to me."

Would he plant a bomb in the same market where his mother buys vegetables? He remains quiet again, turning the idea in his mind. "If Allah wants, I will do so. Meri valida ko jannat naseeb hogi (my mother will be sent to paradise)," he replies.

He looks almost as if under a spell, unthinking, unfeeling, a machine engineered to kill. All in the name of Allah

----

Saquib Nisar, 23

A Jamia Millia Islamia graduate, now pursuing a management course from Sikkim Manipal University, accused of being part of the Ghaffar Market reconnaissance team.

Saquib Nisar is handcuffed, a policeman at his side. He is slim, fair with good looks, large, expressive eyes; his face looks tired for lack of sleep. He wears well-fitting blue jeans, a red and white bold striped shirt hangs loosely on his slim frame. He looks eager to talk despite having undergone hours of extensive police interrogation. One gets the impression that he belongs to a family of a certain level of affluence.

I ask him: "Do you know what you have done?" He remains static, head down, no movement to show he has heard the question. Then after a long pause, he looks up. "Yes," is the tentative reply. "Where did you plant the bomb?" "In CP," comes the answer. "Where in CP?"

"Regal cinema," Nisar answers, his voice growing louder and clearer. "Did you know it was a bomb and doing this would kill innocent people?" "Yes." "Why did you do it?" He looks up and says, "For Allah. It's a jihad for Allah." His eyes seem moist, but it's not remorse.

He is forthcoming about his background, a Delhiite, not from Azamgarh, he insists. He did his schooling in Delhi and has just graduated in Political Science, Economics and Islamic Studies from Jamia Millia Islamia scoring reasonably well, "three year aggregate marks of 56 per cent", he says proudly.

He had a life beyond jihad, a girl who was more than just a friend, and aspirations for everything that's usual for a guy of his age—clothes, girls and gadgets.

But, by his own admission, this lifestyle was just a cover to hide his real intent, his real passion—jihad in the name of Allah, for Allah. "I do not miss my girl, my life," he says, a little surprised how the police got to him so soon. "We lead a normal life of a student, beyond suspicion," he says, adding that he believed he would never be caught. "I have no criminal history."

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Saquib Nisar says...

"He (Atif) would talk about jihad for hours. He was quite passionate about it and infused the same in me."

"Allah does miracles to save a jihadi, that is true."

"Atif said one has to adopt evil to prevent a bigger one. It's not for me or you; it's for Allah."

"We loved to hear Atif talk about jihad. He told me that only a few get to wage jihad for Allah."

Jihad was like a part-time activity that he pursued with utmost seriousness. Nisar used to meet a set of like-minded friends in college and outside to discuss the need for jihad, nature of jihad, to take revenge for atrocities and insults heaped on Muslims. "It is difficult to be a Muslim in India," Nisar says without elaboration.

He never thought, however, that he would end up being a jihadi till about four years ago when he first met Atif at his cousin Shatab's house (Atif was killed in the September 19, 2008 encounter).

Atif became friend, philosopher and guide to Shakeel, Nisar, Rehman and others in the gang. The Delhi Police calls him the mastermind of the Delhi serial blasts.

They would often hang out together. "We loved to hear Atif talk about jihad," recollects Nisar, talking of his early association with Atif. Initially, Atif would come with Shatab to meet Nisar; later he started coming on his own.

"It was Atif who told me that only a few privileged get to wage jihad for Allah," recounts Nisar. "He would talk for hours about jihad. He was passionate about it and infused the same in me."

Nisar says it took a while for him to be completely indoctrinated. Atif prescribed him a reading list of Urdu literature, mostly about the valiant fight of a jihadi against the enemies of Islam. Nisar makes a special mention of the book Maidan Pukarte Hai, about the struggle of Afghanistan's Muslims against the Soviet occupation in the 1980s.

The book had a profound impact on him. "The book says that Allah helps a true jihadi, always. And I believe it," he asserts. Nisar insists on narrating an episode from this book about an unarmed jihadi who was surrounded by Russian tanks in the middle of a desert in Afghanistan.

In a desperate bid to save his life, the jihadi threw a fistful of sand he picked up from the ground at the tanks. The sand became a powerful explosive and ripped the Russian tanks apart. "Allah does miracles to save a true jihadi, that's true," Nisar says, his gaze unblinking, believing every word of this fantastic fairy tale.

He remembers that for many months Atif was judging his will and determination and courage to be a jihadi. "For many years Atif did not tell his real intent, the real task for me. He wanted to make sure I could do it," says Nisar, "I always knew I had the fire for jihad."

The first time Atif actually defined what he meant by jihad was when he inadvertently mentioned how he placed a bomb at the Sankatmochan Temple in Varanasi a couple of years ago. Atif told Nisar in graphic detail how he placed the bomb near a tree in the temple premises where four couples were getting married.

-----

Mohammed Shakeel, 26

A final year student of economics at Jamia Millia Islamia, accused of planting bombs in Ahmedabad and Delhi's Karol Bagh.

With his face covered, Shakeel is waiting to be paraded in front of the cameras at a press conference by the south Delhi police. A member of his family is with him, so are a few friends who risked meeting him. His face is covered.

"Tell me about yourself," I ask. "I've already done that many times to the cops," he says, dismissing the question. Correcting his tone, he says, almost apologetically, "Sir, ask what you want to know, I am an open book, by Allah's grace."

He goes on to tell me that he has love for life, and wants to enjoy it to fullest. But, it should be a respectable life. "If you follow things that are happening in the world, also in India, Muslims are not welcome."

There are two options, live a life full of contempt, get insulted and abused, or protest in the name of Allah. "I decided to do the latter because had it been only for me it would have not mattered, it's the name of Allah that they want to soil, and that is not acceptable."

Atif was the man behind his indoctrination as well. "I experienced in me an awakening after I committed my life to Allah. Now nothing scares me, life and death are same," says Shakeel.

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Mohammed Shakeel says...

"I experienced an awakening after I committed my life to Allah. Now life and death are same."

"He (Atif) is dead and we are here (in prison). No regrets, it's Allah's test of our fortitude."

"If you follow things that are happening in the world, also in India, Muslims are not welcome."

"A handful of Allah ke bande were able to paralyse the economic life of such a big country."

He has no qualms in acknowledging that he planted a bomb in Ahmedabad. "I planted the parcel in Mani Nagar," he says. A regular at Atif's hideout, Shakeel lists the people who went with him to Ahmedabad: Nisar's cousin Shatab, Sajid and Khalid, all on the run, Zia-ur Rehman and Atif.

They were frequent visitors at Atif's house. "This association was the most passionate phase for our life, nothing mattered, there was no ego, we can do anything for Allah."

Shakeel is believed to be second-in-command after Atif, so it comes as no surprise that he accompanied Atif to Ghaffar Market to plant the bombs.

"We're all equals in the jihad for Allah, but I was associated longer with the Allah ke bande (men of God). He was happy with the way things were happening. A handful of Allah ke bande were able to paralyse the economic life of such a big country by targeting metros and nothing much could be done about it. We gave back what we were getting from them," Shakeel says.

But like Nisar, he is also puzzled at being caught so easily. "Atif used to say no one can touch us, we are for Allah," he recollects. "He is dead, we are here, no regrets, it's Allah's test of our fortitude."

The police have proof. "They have seized a bucket in which we kept barood (explosive) and plastic tape, timer watches and the bags we used," he says anxiously.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 05 Oct 2008 12:57

20-year jail for former Congress minister for 1993 Surat blast

1993 Surat blasts convicts (from left) Hussain Ghadiyali, Mushtak Ibrahim Patel, Mohammad Surti, Iqbal Vadiwalla and Yousuf Dadu, who were sentenced to 20 years in jail by a special TADA Court in Surat on Saturday.

AHMEDABAD: A former Congress minister of Gujarat and five others were on Saturday sentenced to 20-year imprisonment for their involvement in an April 1993 bomb blast in Surat, in which a school girl was killed and about 30 others were injured.

A special TADA court in Surat found Mohammad Surti and his accomplices guilty of the bomb blast and handed them the sentence.

Seven others were sentenced to 10 years’ imprisonment.

The accused were alleged to have used government vehicles to transport bombs and other equipment for the blast. The TADA court examined more than 300 witnesses and based its judgment on the Forensic Science Laboratory report on the blast.

In all, there were 24 accused, of whom at least five are still absconding, while one has died since then.

It was claimed that the bombs were exploded in a reprisal for the communal riots that broke out in the wake of the demolition of the Babri mosque at Ayodhya in December 1992. The diamond and textile city of Surat was one of the worst affected in the riots. In April 1993, two bombs were exploded, one at the Surat railway station when the Gujarat Express was on the platform and the other near a school on Varacha Road, in which the schoolgirl was killed. All the accused are out on bail.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 05 Oct 2008 13:45

Updates on terrort attacks

One held for Malegaon blast
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/oct/04mal.htm

October 04, 2008 21:40 IST

A man was arrested on Saturday for his alleged involvement with the recent bomb blast in Malegaon and a forensic report said a mixture of RDX and ammonium nitrate was used in the explosion.

Abdul Rehman Salem Chaus was held by the police also for his alleged involvement in violence after the explosion and for taking away the firearm belonging to the bodyguard of Additional Superintendent of Police Sanjay Patil.

The pistol, with ten rounds in it, has also been recovered, they said, adding further investigations were on in the case and more persons could be arrested in connection with the mob violence that followed the blast.

The explosives were placed on a motorcycle. The blast killed six people and injured over 70.

Mangalore: Terror suspects remanded to judicial custody
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/oct/04delblast2.htm

October 04, 2008 19:52 IST

Four terror suspects, allegedly belonging to the Indian Mujahideen group, have been remanded to judicial custody by a Mangalore court till October 17.

The four were arrested in a joint operation by the Mumbai and Karnataka police on Friday for their alleged involvement in the Delhi serial blasts.

Judicial First Class-III Magistrate K P Dinesh remanded Mohammud Ali, his son Javed Ali, Naushad and Ahmad Bawa to judicial custody when police produced them before the court today.

Meanwhile, police said the four arrested were likely to be handed over to Mumbai police for questioning.

They said the arrested have revealed vital information on the terror network carried on by them and also the plans they had.

Police have been scanning through the contents in the CDs, pen drives and hard discs, which were seized from them during Friday's raids.

Delhi blasts: Suspects remanded to 12-day police custody
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/oct/04delblast1.htm

October 04, 2008 19:47 IST

Five suspected terrorists allegedly involved in the September 13 serial blasts in New Delhi were on Saturday remanded to 12 days' police custody by a local court.

Mohammed Saif, Zeeshan, Mohammed Shakeel, Zia-Ur-Rehman and Saquib Nissar were produced before Chief Metropolitan Magistrate Sanjeev Jain who sent them to police custody till October 16.

Saif was arrested immediately after the September 19 encounter in Jamia Nagar in south Delhi while Zeeshan was arrested the same evening from Jhandewalan area in Central Delhi where he had gone to give an interview to a private TV channel.

A day later, Mohammed Shakeel, Zia-Ur-Rehman and Saquib Nissar were arrested from south Delhi and were produced in court in connection with the blast at Gaffar Market in Karol Bagh on September 13.

Saif and Zeeshan have been named as accused for their alleged involvement in the blasts in Greater Kailash-I on the same day.

The September 13 serial blasts which rocked Connaught Place, Gaffar Market in Karol Bagh in Central Delhi and the M Block market in Greater Kailash left 21 people dead and several others injured.

Saif was arrested following an encounter in Jamia Nagar in south Delhi on September 19 while Zeeshan was arrested on the same evening from Jhandewalan area in Central Delhi where he had gone to give an interview to a private TV channel.

The other three accused were arrested on September 20.

Prosecutor Mohan told the court that the police had recovered a lap-top and mobile phones from the accused.

He also claimed that the accused belonged to modules of banned outfit Students Islamic Movement of India and Indian Mujahideen .

"There were constant conversations among the accused. The police arrested five persons from Mumbai, four in Bengaluru and one in Uttar Pradesh following a lead from them. They have also revealed the names of six other persons allegedly involved in the blasts," he said.

The counsel for the accused, on the other hand, opposed their remand saying that they had already spent 14 days in police custody. The counsel for one accused claimed that he was not allowed to meet his client during police custody.

Meanwhile, the court also asked the police to avoid unwarranted or undue comments in the media and take every step to ensure fair investigation in the blasts cases. {The media is spinning a new conspiracy theory everyday. what should the police do, keep quiet and let the media have their way.}

All the accused have been booked under various provisions of the Indian Penal Code, Explosive Substances Act and Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 05 Oct 2008 13:51

Four serious blast victims shifted outside Tripura
Sunday, October 05 2008 11:10

Agartala, Oct 5: The Tripura government has shifted four people, critically injured in the serial blasts in Agartala on Wednesday, Oct 1, to Kolkata and Guwahati while bringing two specialist doctors of facial surgery from outside the state for providing better treatment to the victims.

Sources at the Agartala Government Medical College and GBP Hospital here on Sunday, Oct 5 said three of the shifted persons were hit by poisonous chemical splinters used in the bombs and the fourth person was suffering from serious eye injuries and had already been shifted to Guwahati. ''All three persons suffering from infections are stated to be critical and three senior doctors have accompanied them,'' doctors at the Agartala Government Medical College and GBP Hospital said.

Meanwhile, the victims' families alleged of poor treatment facilities and service in the hospital and said inadequate medication immediately after the incident had increased the complications of the victims.

They also expressed dissatisfaction over the state government's support to the victims and said in the name of free treatment in the hospitals, the authorities could not even provide basic services, including nursing and drinking water facilities, and essential medications like bandage and tetanus injections were also donated by other people.

''Parmita Livingstone, executive editor of a leading daily, has contributed more than Rs 10,000 for procuring basic medicines and nursing staff and on the next day Congress leaders paid about Rs 13,000 for the same purpose to the medicine shops in the hospital area,'' a relative of one of the victims said.

He pointed out that since the government announced free treatment, the doctors could not ask the patients' families to buy the medicines and other nursing kits even though the stocks were not sufficient in the hospital and as a result, the treatment got hampered.

The BJP announced cash compensation of Rs 50,000 to each of the six critically injured persons and criticised the government's decision to pay compensation of only Rs 5,000 and free medical treatment.

Congress MLA of the area where the blasts occurred and Public Accounts Committee Chairman Sudip Roy Barman lashed out at Chief Minister Manik Sarkar for the government decision of paying only Rs 5,000 and free medical treatment.

Manu · Post by **Manu** » 05 Oct 2008 15:56

Aditya_V wrote:Bangladeshis want to evite native Indians from Assam
12 killed, Pak flags sighted in Assam
http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... am/369429/

Chanakya was right in his arthashastra- never accept refugees in our country because

1) First they say they are rufugees and need shelter

2) Step 2- they say they are your countrymen and are part of your country

3) Step 3- Once there population has saturated they say are not treated equally and demand a seprate homeland in your country

I respectfully disagree. All groups that have sought refuge in Mother India from Religious Persecution in this native lands have proved to be an asset to India - Parsis, Syrian Christians, Tibetans.

The problem, such as it is, is only with Sunni Islam (the Christian issue is only fuelled by foreign Evangelist organizations). The mistake we make it we consider Sunni Islam a normal, conventional religion (it is only masquerading as one). It is in a league all by itself. I do not see the same problem with Shia Muslims or with the Bohra community.

sum · Post by **sum** » 05 Oct 2008 16:13

Link

Minority panel recommends ban on Bajrang Dal

NEW DELHI: Taking a serious note of the role of Bajrang Dal in the series of attacks on churches in the BJP-ruled Karnataka, the National Commissi
on for Minorities has suggested a ban on such organisations "responsible for breakdown of communal harmony".
The Commission in its report submitted to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh a few days back said, "The state must keep a close watch on the activities of all such organisations that have contributed to the breakdown of communal harmony there. Remedial action, including a ban and prosecution should be initiated. Communal harmony should be maintained at all costs."

The Commission headed by its Chairman Md Shafi Qureshi visited the trouble-torn areas like Mangalore, Bangalore and Udupi between September 16 and September 18 to assess the situation after attacks on Christians and their places of worship there.

The report said the district magistrate and the SSP of Udupi district told NCM that all 17 persons arrested in the district for violence belong to Bajrang Dal.

The NCM team also took up the matter of the Bajrang Dal state chief Mahendra Kumar who reportedly issued statements claiming that he damaged the prayer halls in Karnataka.

"NCM desires to know why he had not been arrested so far. He should be arrested and serious action must be taken against him as well as other persons responsible," the NCM report said.

According to the report, the Bangalore administration told the NCM that of the 83 persons lodged in judicial custody in connection with the communal clashes, 36 of them belonged to the Bajrang Dal.

The ban seems imminent to protect our "secularism" going by the media reports!!!!

Someone had to be the fall guy for the misdeeds and subsequent shocking behaviour of IMs during post blast investigation and it seems the BD(and soon the RSS) will be it.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 05 Oct 2008 17:28

I personally think that for Hindus, democratic option in India does not exist. If they want to save their religion, culture, home, honour, women, they have to choose some other option, democracy has failed them. The clock is ticking.
rgds,
fanne

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 05 Oct 2008 18:43

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 563081.cms

'Majority of Maoist supporters in Orissa are Christians'5 Oct 2008, 1829 hrs IST,PTI

BHUBANESWAR: Admitting that Maoist groups in Orissa derive major support from minority communities, a prominent Maoist leader has said there was pre
ssure from both Christians and Dalits to eliminate VHP leader Laxmanananda Saraswati.
Sabyasachi Panda alias Sunil, who met a group of journalists at an undisclosed hideout on Saturday, said Saraswati was killed as he did not pay any heed to Maoist's warning.

The transcript of Panda's meeting was made available to a news agency on Sunday.

"We had asked Laxmanananda to desist from anti-Christian activities. He created a riot in December 2007 and subsequently targeted people indulging in cow slaughter," he said, adding people of both the communities were opposed to the seer.

Noting that most of the cadre members and supporters in Orissa belonged to Christian community, Panda said, "It is a fact that Christians are in majority in our organisation. Our supporters in Orissa's Rayagada, Gajapati and Kandhamal also belonged to Christian community."

The Maoist leader, however, pointed out that though Christians were major support base of the outfit in Orissa, the situation was not similar across the country.

"We do not believe in any religion or are attached to any religious groups. We are not in favour of any religion," he said claiming Laxamananda was working to revive Brahminism which was almost disappearing.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 05 Oct 2008 18:46

Very disturbing... especially in light of all the media and international support these gangs are getting by playing up the religious angle and downplaying their criminal activities.

Tamang · Post by **Tamang** » 05 Oct 2008 19:08

Curfew in Maharashtra's Dhule town after communal clashes

Trouble started this afternoon when some people, belonging to a particular community, allegedly torn off banners of a Hindu outfit appealing people to attend a public meeting in Dhule's Ram Mandir Chowk in the evening.

G Subramaniam · Post by **G Subramaniam** » 05 Oct 2008 19:52

Manu wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Bangladeshis want to evite native Indians from Assam http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... am/369429/

Chanakya was right in his arthashastra- never accept refugees in our country because

1) First they say they are rufugees and need shelter

2) Step 2- they say they are your countrymen and are part of your country

3) Step 3- Once there population has saturated they say are not treated equally and demand a seprate homeland in your country
I respectfully disagree. All groups that have sought refuge in Mother India from Religious Persecution in this native lands have proved to be an asset to India - Parsis, Syrian Christians, Tibetans.

The problem, such as it is, is only with Sunni Islam (the Christian issue is only fuelled by foreign Evangelist organizations). The mistake we make it we consider Sunni Islam a normal, conventional religion (it is only masquerading as one). It is in a league all by itself. I do not see the same problem with Shia Muslims or with the Bohra community.

You need to read history
In the shia kingdom of Oudh, thousands of hindu boys were castrated every year to serve
as eunuchs in the Harems, circa 1840
The shia kings of Oudh were doing a lot of forced conversions

I read this in an online book, I will try to dig it up

Zin · Post by **Zin** » 05 Oct 2008 20:14

ASPuar wrote: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 563081.cms

"We do not believe in any religion or are attached to any religious groups. We are not in favour of any religion," he said claiming Laxamananda was working to revive Brahminism which was almost disappearing.

So this maoist wants us to believe that a dalit swami laxamananda was reviving brahminism.
His words clearly reflect that he is reading from a script prepared by fundamentalists who hate sanatan dharm. Trying to equate sanatan dharm with brahminism was the favourite ploy of the early christians who landed on indian soil with the british invaders, now the american fundamenatlist have taken over and following the same script of condemning other religions as either barbaric or trying to sow sectarian seeds in the midst of communities. rwanda was a prime example were the christian fundamentalist played a role in inventing identities to opposing tribes and encouraging them to kill each other.

nkumar · Post by **nkumar** » 06 Oct 2008 01:03

ASPuar wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 563081.cms

'Majority of Maoist supporters in Orissa are Christians'5 Oct 2008, 1829 hrs IST,PTI

BHUBANESWAR: Admitting that Maoist groups in Orissa derive major support from minority communities, a prominent Maoist leader has said there was pre
ssure from both Christians and Dalits to eliminate VHP leader Laxmanananda Saraswati.
Sabyasachi Panda alias Sunil, who met a group of journalists at an undisclosed hideout on Saturday, said Saraswati was killed as he did not pay any heed to Maoist's warning.

The transcript of Panda's meeting was made available to a news agency on Sunday.

"We had asked Laxmanananda to desist from anti-Christian activities. He created a riot in December 2007 and subsequently targeted people indulging in cow slaughter," he said, adding people of both the communities were opposed to the seer.

Noting that most of the cadre members and supporters in Orissa belonged to Christian community, Panda said, "It is a fact that Christians are in majority in our organisation. Our supporters in Orissa's Rayagada, Gajapati and Kandhamal also belonged to Christian community."

The Maoist leader, however, pointed out that though Christians were major support base of the outfit in Orissa, the situation was not similar across the country.

"We do not believe in any religion or are attached to any religious groups. We are not in favour of any religion," he said claiming Laxamananda was working to revive Brahminism which was almost disappearing.

So, the conspiracy theories are now becoming real! IIRC, the nexus between the EJs and Naxals was first pointed out by sanjaychoudhary. But "guardians of knowledge" on BRF dismissed this as a conspiracy theory.

G Subramaniam · Post by **G Subramaniam** » 06 Oct 2008 01:06

X-Posted

http://in.truveo.com/Pak-flag-hoisted-i ... 3044151189

See video of Pak flag hoisted by BD illegals in Assam

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 06 Oct 2008 01:12

nkumar wrote:

So, the conspiracy theories are now becoming real! IIRC, the nexus between the EJs and Naxals was first pointed out by sanjaychoudhary. But "guardians of knowledge" on BRF dismissed this as a conspiracy theory.

Your problem is that you are mixing correlation with causation -- just because most of the maoists belong to christianity, it does not mean that they turned to maoism because of christianity, or that the christians are EJs who are turning against the country. It only means that the maoists/marxist cadre found a fracture point that they could exploit to political use -- it is arguable (and seems to the point of the other thread) that the fracture point would not exist if it were not for the EJs. If you do not get your elementary reasoning right, you are likely to come up with cr@p for conclusions, as happens most of the time.

G Subramaniam · Post by **G Subramaniam** » 06 Oct 2008 01:47

IM public donate to Jamia Students legal defense

http://www.twocircles.net/2008oct02/pub ... l_aid.html

Public donate for Jamia students’ legal aid
Submitted by mumtaz on 2 October 2008 - 1:10pm.

* Indian Muslim

By Mumtaz Alam Falahi, TwoCircles.net

New Delhi: Under the intensified security arrangement, Eid prayer was offered at dozens of mosques and Idgahs here in New Delhi and in most parts of the country peacefully today.

Like past, hundreds of people offered the Eid prayer at the mosque of Jamia Millia Islamia in the presence of heavy security.

A number of people were seen with black badge showing their sorrow on the Batla House encounter in which, they say, two innocents were killed. The police described them as suspected terrorists. Inspector Mohan Chand Sharma was also killed in the shootout. Following the encounter more than a dozen people were arrested from the Jamia Nagar area in connection with the Delhi bombing. Among them two are Jamia students. The university has declared them innocent and genuine student of the university and decided to extend legal aid to them.

At the entrance of the Jamia mosque and at some other places in the vicinity some donations boxes were kept. The boxes read: Students’ Legal Aid Fund. Some students were carrying those boxes after the Eid prayer. A number of people were seen dropping cash in the boxes. This showed that the overwhelming majority of the locals do not believe the police version of the encounter or their allegations about the arrested ones including Jamia students.

nkumar · Post by **nkumar** » 06 Oct 2008 02:08

Rye wrote:nkumar wrote:
So, the conspiracy theories are now becoming real! IIRC, the nexus between the EJs and Naxals was first pointed out by sanjaychoudhary. But "guardians of knowledge" on BRF dismissed this as a conspiracy theory.
Your problem is that you are mixing correlation with causation -- just because most of the maoists belong to christianity, it does not mean that they turned to maoism because of christianity, or that the christians are EJs who are turning against the country. It only means that the maoists/marxist cadre found a fracture point that they could exploit to political use -- it is arguable (and seems to the point of the other thread) that the fracture point would not exist if it were not for the EJs. If you do not get your elementary reasoning right, you are likely to come up with cr@p for conclusions, as happens most of the time.

Since admins do not issue warnings to oldies who have 1000s of posts on BRF, I am going to respond in kind. My post was not targeted towards you. I do not remember but were you the one who dismissed the nexus between the EJs and Naxals?

Your problem is jumping to conclusions without reading carefully and comprehending what someone has written. Read my post again and if it does not help, read it again by first increasing the text size. Care to point out where I have mentioned christianity/Indian christians and linked them with Naxals? I was very specifically talking about EJs (and not christians in general) and Naxals.

I have many times asked on BRF to have a thread on EJs but I also mentioned that patriotic Indian Christians have to be separated out, we have many of BRF itself. Even though the TOI article mentions that 'Majority of Maoist supporters in Orissa are Christians', I did not lump Christians with Naxals. I say again, I specifically wrote about EJs who are one subset of Christians. My statement does not imply your conclusions.

Here is my rhetorical question to you, can you deny the nexus between naxals and EJs? Before getting your elementary reasoning right, you should first focus on reading carefully.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 06 Oct 2008 02:45

It is all well and good to claim that you are taking pains to separate Patriotic christians from unpatriotic ones, but the line is never well-defined, and statements like "the church is doing X" are thrown about freely. From an observer's perspective the line is not there, because no one bothers to actually specify how to draw that line, other than bromides about "I have clearly separated in my mind on how to differentiate between the two". But that never helps if that clarity is not translated to words.

Post count does not matter, but piling on rhetorical horsesh1t never impresses anyone. We can just agree to disagree on whatever it is you are cheesed off about. Last post on this.

nkumar · Post by **nkumar** » 06 Oct 2008 03:18

Rye wrote:It is all well and good to claim that you are taking pains to separate Patriotic christians from unpatriotic ones, but the line is never well-defined, and statements like "the church is doing X" are thrown about freely. From an observer's perspective the line is not there, because no one bothers to actually specify how to draw that line, other than bromides about "I have clearly separated in my mind on how to differentiate between the two". But that never helps if that clarity is not translated to words.

Post count does not matter, but piling on rhetorical horsesh1t never impresses anyone. We can just agree to disagree on whatever it is you are cheesed off about. Last post on this.

You have not contradicted to what I responded to you, neither you have answered the questions I asked. That is not the way to engage in a debate and if you can't handle it, then don't reply to my posts and keep the bullsh!t you spout here to yourself.

Yes, the number of posts do not count, and that is precisely the reason, why the admins should be warning you when you use colorful objectives for others and their posts, rather the logically defeating their arguments. My last post on this too.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 06 Oct 2008 03:28

"EJs are related to naxals" is a pretty broad statement that proves nothing and explains nothing. You have asked nothing specific that is worth answering. I am not interesting in any pointless rhetorical slugfest with you. Adios.

nkumar · Post by **nkumar** » 06 Oct 2008 03:36

Rye wrote:"EJs are related to naxals" is a pretty broad statement that proves nothing and explains nothing. You have asked nothing specific that is worth answering. I am not interesting in any pointless rhetorical slugfest with you. Adios.

Thanks for showing your comprehension. For that matter, what you write "proves nothing and explains nothing". I am least interested in having a debate with you. Please desist from replying to my posts, if you can't answer the questions in a civilized manner.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 06 Oct 2008 03:46

Since you have a deep understanding of "how naxals are related to EJs", go on and spell it out. Don't let me stand in your way.

nkumar · Post by **nkumar** » 06 Oct 2008 05:11

There are enough reports which keep coming out like the one posted by ASPuar. It's another matter if you want QED type evidence. Of course, I can't keep bookmarking those pages, keeping in mind that someone will come up with adjectives like cr@p/horseh1t (excellent contrary evidence, by the way!), when a nexus is pointed out between EJs and naxals.

Lets leave it at that. Time will tell who is right.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 06 Oct 2008 05:34

Avinash R wrote:Four serious blast victims shifted outside Tripura
Sunday, October 05 2008 11:10

Agartala, Oct 5: The Tripura government has shifted four people, critically injured in the serial blasts in Agartala on Wednesday, Oct 1, to Kolkata and Guwahati while bringing two specialist doctors of facial surgery from outside the state for providing better treatment to the victims.

Sources at the Agartala Government Medical College and GBP Hospital here on Sunday, Oct 5 said three of the shifted persons were hit by poisonous chemical splinters used in the bombs and the fourth person was suffering from serious eye injuries and had already been shifted to Guwahati. ''All three persons suffering from infections are stated to be critical and three senior doctors have accompanied them,'' doctors at the Agartala Government Medical College and GBP Hospital said.

Meanwhile, the victims' families alleged of poor treatment facilities and service in the hospital and said inadequate medication immediately after the incident had increased the complications of the victims.

Are they using chemical weapons? TSP is desperate and is capable of doing such things.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 06 Oct 2008 09:46

english press not reporting this.
Advani says emergency like situation in country.

देश में आपातकाल जैसी स्थिति है : आडवाणी
इंडो-एशियन न्यूज सर्विस
बरेली, रविवार, अक्टूबर 5, 2008

भारतीय जनता पार्टी (भाजपा) के प्रधानमंत्री पद के उम्मीदवार लालकृष्ण आडवाणी ने सोमवार को जनता का आह्वान करते हुए कहा कि वे आगामी लोकसभा चुनावों में महंगाई और आतंकवाद के मुद्दे पर पूरी तरह से विफल संयुक्त प्रगतिशील गठबंधन (संप्रग) सरकार को हटाकर सत्ता परिवर्तन का मार्ग प्रशस्त करें।

बरेली के तुलसी मैदान में भाजपा की विजय संकल्प रैली को संबोधित करते हुए आडवाणी ने कहा कि कांग्रेस राज में आज बिल्कुल आपातकाल जैसी स्थित उत्पन्न हो गई है। उन्होंने जनता से कहा कि वह कांग्रेस को उसी तरह उखाड़ फेंके जैसे आपातकाल के बाद हुए लोकसभा चुनावों में इंदिरा गांधी को उखाड़ फेंका था।

आडवाणी ने याद दिलाते हुए कहा कि उस लोकसभा चुनाव में उत्तर प्रदेश में कांग्रेस तत्कालीन प्रधानमंत्री इंदिरा गांधी सहित सभी 85 लोकसभा सीटों पर हार गई थी। उन्होंने कहा कि प्रदेश की जनता को आगामी लोकसभा चुनावों में भी उसी सोच को ध्यान में रखकर आतंकवाद और महंगाई के मुद्दे पर सत्ता परिवर्तन करना होगा।

आडवाणी ने कहा कि देश में आतंकवाद चरम स्थिति में पहुंच गया है। आतंकवाद पहले पंजाब फिर जम्मू कश्मीर, फिर पूर्वोत्तर राज्यों और अब तो समूचे देश में तेजी से बढ़ रहा है। पोटा खत्म कर दिया गया और संसद पर हमले के षड्यंत्रकारी अफजल गुरु को फांसी पर नहीं चढाया जा रहा है।

उन्होंने कहा कि सरकार अगर वास्तव में आतंकवाद रोकना चाहती है तो उसे सभी दलों को विश्वास में लेकर कठोर कदम उठाने चाहिए। आडवाणी ने कहा कि विजय संकल्प रैलियां उनको या पार्टी को विजयी बनाने के लिए नहीं भारत की विजय के लिए हैं।

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 06 Oct 2008 09:48

Muppalla wrote:
Avinash R wrote:Four serious blast victims shifted outside Tripura
Sources at the Agartala Government Medical College and GBP Hospital here on Sunday, Oct 5 said three of the shifted persons were hit by poisonous chemical splinters used in the bombs and the fourth person was suffering from serious eye injuries and had already been shifted to Guwahati.

Are they using chemical weapons? TSP is desperate and is capable of doing such things.

This is the power of internet. the terrorists are learning from others in ME on how to maximize casualities by wrapping the bombs in chemicals.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 06 Oct 2008 10:00

In this particular instance, it seems that the Maoists were requested to dispose of Laxmananada Saraswati by christian elements. Which they did. If even the DDM is reporting it, it is quite likely that it is not only true, but this is only the tip of the iceberg. Either way, it is a dangerous portent.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 06 Oct 2008 13:13

late news but needs to posted.

POTA to be brought back if BJP voted to power: Advani

New Delhi, Oct 4 - BJP's Prime Ministerial candidate L K Advani today promised to bring back POTA when the NDA coalition came to power after the Lok Sabha elections and expected the Congress to extend its support to the law in the Lower House of Parliament without giving the trouble of passing it in the Joint Session of the Union Legislature.

Inaugurating a National Seminar on 'War on Terrorism', Mr Advani said several functionaries, including Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, had spoken on the need for a strong anti-terror law and they should support the passage in the 15th Lok Sabha, he said, adding that it was time to fight terror treating it as an issue that deserved broad national consensus.

Detailing the observations of Congressmen, he wondered how the country can be safe when a government which had no mind of its own but spoke in many voices and a PM who had an office but authority, He asked. ''It is difficult to find out who runs this govenment and who takes the decision,'' he remarked.

satya · Post by **satya** » 06 Oct 2008 13:15

There was a news article in today's Hindustan Times ( delhi edition print ) on Bodo-Muslim riots in Assam .For a change HT reported a few known facts openly :

1. Muslims are now 40% of state population ( again all B'deshis )

2. In 8 districts of Assam, they are in majority

3. In 7 other districts , they are almost at par with local ethnic population

4. They are a deciding factor in 52 of 126 assembly seats in Assam .

5. As per local people , current riots are a re-run of 1979 riots with exception being this time adivasis siding with Bodos against B'deshis /immigrants .

Seem like B'deshis are succeeding in their goal of swallowing Assam and other NE states . We need a national level policy on immigration to be implemented .

harik · Post by **harik** » 06 Oct 2008 16:38

Times Now
Is reporting that finally the wifi hacker who was behind the terror mails is arrested.
Profile:
Senior postition S/W Enginneer, Hi Networth individual, highly educated family.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 06 Oct 2008 17:23

Avinash R, thanks very much for the hindi reports -- that's a treat compared to the usual english media views we are all used to on the web.

G Subramaniam · Post by **G Subramaniam** » 06 Oct 2008 17:37

Avinash R wrote:english press not reporting this.
Advani says emergency like situation in country.
देश में आपातकाल जैसी स्थिति है : आडवाणी
इंडो-एशियन न्यूज सर्विस
बरेली, रविवार, अक्टूबर 5, 2008

भारतीय जनता पार्टी (भाजपा) के प्रधानमंत्री पद के उम्मीदवार लालकृष्ण आडवाणी ने सोमवार को जनता का आह्वान करते हुए कहा कि वे आगामी लोकसभा चुनावों में महंगाई और आतंकवाद के मुद्दे पर पूरी तरह से विफल संयुक्त प्रगतिशील गठबंधन (संप्रग) सरकार को हटाकर सत्ता परिवर्तन का मार्ग प्रशस्त करें।

बरेली के तुलसी मैदान में भाजपा की विजय संकल्प रैली को संबोधित करते हुए आडवाणी ने कहा कि कांग्रेस राज में आज बिल्कुल आपातकाल जैसी स्थित उत्पन्न हो गई है। उन्होंने जनता से कहा कि वह कांग्रेस को उसी तरह उखाड़ फेंके जैसे आपातकाल के बाद हुए लोकसभा चुनावों में इंदिरा गांधी को उखाड़ फेंका था।

आडवाणी ने याद दिलाते हुए कहा कि उस लोकसभा चुनाव में उत्तर प्रदेश में कांग्रेस तत्कालीन प्रधानमंत्री इंदिरा गांधी सहित सभी 85 लोकसभा सीटों पर हार गई थी। उन्होंने कहा कि प्रदेश की जनता को आगामी लोकसभा चुनावों में भी उसी सोच को ध्यान में रखकर आतंकवाद और महंगाई के मुद्दे पर सत्ता परिवर्तन करना होगा।

आडवाणी ने कहा कि देश में आतंकवाद चरम स्थिति में पहुंच गया है। आतंकवाद पहले पंजाब फिर जम्मू कश्मीर, फिर पूर्वोत्तर राज्यों और अब तो समूचे देश में तेजी से बढ़ रहा है। पोटा खत्म कर दिया गया और संसद पर हमले के षड्यंत्रकारी अफजल गुरु को फांसी पर नहीं चढाया जा रहा है।

उन्होंने कहा कि सरकार अगर वास्तव में आतंकवाद रोकना चाहती है तो उसे सभी दलों को विश्वास में लेकर कठोर कदम उठाने चाहिए। आडवाणी ने कहा कि विजय संकल्प रैलियां उनको या पार्टी को विजयी बनाने के लिए नहीं भारत की विजय के लिए हैं।

I dont understand hindi
Can you please provide a translation

Tamang · Post by **Tamang** » 06 Oct 2008 17:46

Mumbai Police just held a press conference announcing that they have arrested 20 odd "peaceful" IM members who were responsible for various terror attacks in recent years. One of them is reportedly a software engineer in Yahoo India earning a package of 19 lakhs per annum.

Terror email case cracked; key hacker arrested

NEW DELHI: The Mumbai Police have cracked the terror email case and arrested the key WiFi hacker.

The suspect, whose name is Mohammad Mansoor Asgar, is 24 years old (I think I heard Mr.Maria (DCP Mumbai) saying he was 31) and gets a salary of Rs 19 lakhs a year. He is employed with a top IT multinational company at a senior position in Mumbai, police said.

Suspect has been an employee with the MNC for several years.

The suspect belonged to a highly educated family, police said.

Terror group Indian Mujahideen, who have claimed responsibility for the attacks, had sent warnings ahead of the blasts in different cities via email. The terror group has hacked into WiFi systems to send the terror emails.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 06 Oct 2008 18:28

G Subramaniam wrote:I dont understand hindi
Can you please provide a translation

Country is facing emergency like situation : Advani
Oct 5,2008

BJP's prime ministerial candidate L.K.Advani on monday said that the next lok sabha election will be fought on the issues of price rise and terrorism on which the UPA government has failed and called upon people to remove the govt and make way for a new govt.

In Bareily's tulsi maidan addressing BJP's vijay sankalp rally advani said that under this congress government emergency like situation has developed. He asked the people to remove this government like they removed the indira gandhi's government when she imposed emergency.

He recalled that the then congress party had lost all 85 seats including that of PM indira gandhi in UP. He asked the people to recall that verdict and asked them to vote on the issue on terrorism and price rise and vote out this government.

Advani said the terrorism has reached a peak in the country. Advani further said that terrorism first engulfed punjab then j&k then NE and now it is increasing in the rest of the country. POTA was repealed and convicted parliament attack terrorist afzal guru was not being hanged inspite of Supreme court ruling.

He said that if the UPA government really wanted to end terrorism then they should take all the political parties into confidence regarding the strong anti-terror steps that are needed. Advani said that Vijay Sankalp rally was not to make him or his party victorious but to make india victorious.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 06 Oct 2008 18:30

Rye wrote:Avinash R, thanks very much for the hindi reports -- that's a treat compared to the usual english media views we are all used to on the web.

thanks, there many informative reports in indian lang press that dont find a mention in eng press.

Tamang · Post by **Tamang** » 06 Oct 2008 18:37

In the meanwhile..

Why only Muslims on terror radar, asks Pawar

ALIBAUG (Maharashtra): NCP supremo and Union Agriculture Minister Sharad Pawar on Sunday suggested that Hindu groups like Bajrang Dal can also be labelled terrorists going by their actions and wondered why Muslims alone were being targeted as terrorists. (Who is stopping you Mr.Pawar, you control Centre and Maharashtra)

Lashing out at the 'double standards' of police, Pawar said "if Muslims are being targeted as terrorists, why no action is taken against Hindu groups like Sanatan Prabhat and Bajrang Dal". (Who is stopping you Mr.Pawar, you control Centre and Maharashtra)

"The culprits should be booked under the law whether they are Hindus or Muslims," Pawar told reporters at this coastal resort at the end of a two-day meeting of his party. (Who is stopping you Mr.Pawar, you control Centre and Maharashtra)

"The involvement of Sanatan Prabhat and Bajrang Dal in the riots at Thane and also blasts came to light recently but it was not highlighted," Pawar said. (Who is stopping you Mr.Pawar, you control Centre and Maharashtra)

He asked the Home department to intervene and have a different attitude to handle the issue of terrorism. "After all the unity of the nation is important otherwise the society will have to pay the ultimate price for it." (hmmm...what is this nonsense of giving veiled threat all the time)

"Those who involve in illegal activities and creating enmity between the communities whether they belong to Bajrang Dal or SIMI... I am not taking any name but same approach should be taken for everybody," he said. (Who is stopping you Mr.Pawar, you control Centre and Maharashtra)

"I have read the literature of Sanatan organisation written by founder Anil Pachpute and it was horrible."

Pawar also warned that isolating particular strata of society by labelling as terrorist is not a good sign.

"I have worked with the Home department but I don't know why police are declaring names of terrorists at press conferences nowadays. This may affect investigations," Pawar said. "How come all the accused are masterminds who were caught after blasts." he added. (Who is stopping you Mr.Pawar, you control Centre and Maharashtra)

Noting that the nuclear energy was the only alternative before India, Pawar said it is impossible for the country to scrap the Indo-US nuclear deal now.

"Nuclear energy is the only alternative before our country. The Indo-US nuclear deal will benefit the country and it is impossible for us to scrap the deal now," he said.

"Good relations with the US have to be maintained," he said, adding "this is a deal between India and US and not between Manmohan Singh and George Bush."

He urged his party workers to make aware people about the agreement, saying "NCP workers must inform people that the deal is beneficial to the nation."

On rising inflation, Pawar said global hike in petrol prices was responsible for it. "We should not worry about it as it's bound to come down," he added.

In an apparent reference to the Singur and SEZ rows, he said "land acquisitions shouldn't spell doom for farmers."

Citing the examples of Iraq and Afghanistan, Pawar said the 'super power' destroyed the countries and the young generation had no option but to choose terrorism.

"We must learn from this and stop our young generation from going towards fundamentalism," he said.

harik · Post by **harik** » 06 Oct 2008 19:20

Tamang:

Wrt to above report. Even the Home Minister is from NCP , part of the ruling combine.

What essentially will happen is like this.

The intellectuals of TV/Media/Society will use this comment while shielding the actual cuplrits.
This excatly what Javed Akhtar does in media debates.

sum · Post by **sum** » 06 Oct 2008 19:22

Mumbai Police just held a press conference announcing that they have arrested 20 odd "peaceful" IM members who were responsible for various terror attacks in recent years. One of them is reportedly a software engineer in Yahoo India earning a package of 19 lakhs per annum.

But what other option does a person of the "oppressed" community who has been discriminated against all his life by evil hindus have? Also, his 8th cousin's wife's bro's 3rd cousin was directly affected by the Gujarat riots where Modi himself attacked the above mentioned relative. Kindly probe the root cause and get Yahoo to sponsor his legal defence to ensure he gets a fair trial else these evil men in Khaki will put a innocent minority behind bars!!!

//rant off

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 06 Oct 2008 19:52

Tamang wrote:In the meanwhile..

Why only Muslims on terror radar, asks Pawar

Nothing to worry mr.pawar. once the new jehadi groups like ansar ul sunnah come online in mumbai and then parade on the streets with severed heads of kafirs(hindus, sikhs, budhhists, shias) you will understand why only muslims are on terror radar.

Citing the examples of Iraq and Afghanistan, Pawar said the 'super power' destroyed the countries and the young generation had no option but to choose terrorism.

taking your advice then the buddhists should also start a bombing campaign against the taliban. didn't the superpower taliban destroy the bamiyan buddha's. so the buddhists have no option but to choose terrorism. and let us not forget the farmers of your state. their livelihood has been destroyed by your inactions. so they will have no option but to choose terrorism.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 06 Oct 2008 20:36

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/ncp-d ... ts/370036/

Sharad Pawar has always demonstrated the ethics of a sewer rat with a personality disorder --- always ready to stir up communalism to either (a) win votes (b) get some baksheesh. Pawar is most likely "striking the pose" to certain vote banks that he wants to woo for the coming elections. Instead of doing his job and keeping the Thackerays under check whenever they do anything illegal -- he wants to ban BD, akin to Mulayam and Lalu. Just do some political grandstanding and "ban" something, and then carry on with the usual skulduggery -- this has worked for the likes of Mulayam and Lalu and Pawar for many decades, but they might find such strategies are not going to fool anyone nowadays.