Indian Military Aviation

PaulJI · Post by **PaulJI** » 08 Oct 2008 01:00

Arun_S wrote:The frontal RCS even for a clean aircraft configuration (i.e. no external payload) the largest contribution to RCS is indeed from scattering from cockpit. unfortunately everything that is transparent to optical waves is also transparent to microwave radiation. Yamri khans stealth planes have addressed the issue by special treatment of the cockpit glass.

Not just US stealth planes. It's been applied to F-16s (wasn't on original ones), & F-18E, Rafale, Eurofighter & (I think) Gripen all have the same treatment.

Sree · Post by **Sree** » 08 Oct 2008 13:18

Cross posting from Misc Pics dhaga:

1:30 pm IST on Air Force Day ... four and a half hours after the parade should have taken place ... and CNN IBN is the only news site with pictures of the 76th Air Force Day parade, at Hindan:

http://www.ibnlive.com/photogallery/998 ... view_start

(Some horribly Bollywoodized captions, but what the heck, even that doesn't spoil the pictures!!)

Enjoy ... regards

Sree

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 08 Oct 2008 13:43

thanks sree.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Oct 2008 16:34

No,there was an Indian channel with live pics,and the enws that Hindon was to become an operational fighter base once again,to have MIGs stationed there,reducing the reaction time from 9 mts.(Ambala) to 3-4 mts.Hindon.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Oct 2008 16:23

Saw an LCA in Grey Camo landing today. Shortly before that I saw a MiG 21 trainer landing. What I had not observed for a long time was the searing rate at which the MiG 21 approaches for touchdown - even with flaps down full @ >45 degrees it seemed. - but I was standing just off the end of the runway at the 13th hole in KGA.

Another pleasant memory was evoked earlier in the afternoon - memories from Hindon with my cousin Suresh when I was a schoolboy - and the loud "whump" as the MiG 21 afterburner kicks in for take off.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 10 Oct 2008 19:16

Bell, Boeing quit Indian attack helicopter contest
Bell Helicopter and Boeing have pulled out of India's $500 million attack helicopter competition, but some industry sources believe that New Delhi could modify some of the tender's terms to get both US manufacturers on board again.

India's defence ministry issued a request for proposals for 22 helicopters last May, and had hoped to evaluate the AgustaWestland AW129, Boeing AH-64D Apache Longbow, Bell AH-1Z SuperCobra, Eurocopter Tiger, Kamov Ka-50 and Mil Mi-28.

The companies were originally given 90 days to respond, but Boeing asked for an eight-week extension to prepare a fully compliant proposal. The ministry offered only an additional month, prompting Boeing to withdraw.

"The company studied the government's request seriously and thoroughly, and Boeing executives participated in a pre-bidder's conference in New Delhi," says Boeing.

"However, following this review of the Indian air force's attack helicopter programme RFP, Boeing regretfully concluded that it will not be able to prepare in the time allotted a fully compliant proposal that addresses India's unique requirements. This was a difficult but necessary decision," it adds.

Bell chose not to participate as India insisted on a direct purchase from the manufacturers, with its AH-1Z only available via the US government's Foreign Military Sales mechanism.

"The [Indian] government was insisting on dealing directly with the company on this, but it was not possible in this instance and Bell chose to withdraw," says a source close to the company.

Boeing believes that the Apache will remain a strong contender should there be a change of mind in New Delhi. "If future acquisition solicitation circumstances should change, Boeing respectfully requests that the numerous advantages offered by the AH-64D Apache be considered. Boeing remains committed to supporting India's long-term defence needs," says the company.

India's Hindustan Aeronautics hopes to propose its planned Light Combat Helicopter design for the tender, but the type may not be ready in time. Industry sources say that the remaining contenders submitted their proposals before the 30 September deadline, but that New Delhi is keen to have as wide a range of helicopters to choose from as possible.

"The [defence] ministry could do something to get both companies back in the fray. Ultimately, the ministry wants to have the best machines for its services and it would not be possible to make a proper decision when the Apache and Cobra are both not in the competition," says a New Delhi-based source.

The air force hopes to sign a contract within two years and complete deliveries within a further three-year period. The tender is to replace the service's ageing Mil Mi-35 fleets. Its requirements include a twin-engined design capable of operating in all weather and terrain and of deploying turret-housed guns, rockets, and air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles.

EADS and India's Defence Avionics Research Establishment will pursue a requirement for an electronic warfare self-protection suite, having jointly developed and tested a new missile warning system based on the European company's AAR-69 MILDS system.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 10 Oct 2008 19:53

I can't really fathom what the tearing hurry is for the IAF to get these 22 attack helis from abroad..they won't be able to get them into service till another 3-4 years, so why couldn't they just wait for the LCH ? After all, HAL's record in the helicopter division is pretty good, with the IAF having placed orders for WSI Dhruvs..there is almost nothing that is there on these gunships that cannot be integrated on the LCH from other vendors..

having 2 different gunships in their inventory would be a foolish thing, especially for a number as small as 22..unless they're planning on a much larger acquisition somewhere down the line and will try to push it through as a "follow-on" deal.

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 10 Oct 2008 20:22

IAF to deploy light copters squadron at Leh

New Delhi, Oct. 2: The Indian Air Force (IAF) is likely to deploy a squadron of Advanced Light Helicopters (ALHs) soon at Leh in Ladakh, which will help swift movement of troops in the border area.

The ALHs have been designed and developed by the state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL). Sources said that the likely stationing of ALHs in Ladakh would boost swift movement of troops in any eventuality and also help other functions such as casualty evacuation and operation of air-ambulances.

The Ladakh region of Jammu and Kashmir borders China and the area has reported several border transgressions this year by the Chinese People's Liberation Army.

The world's highest battlefield � the Siachen glacier � is also in the vicinity. The deployment of the ALHs in Ladakh is likely after a similar deployment of the ALHs in the sensitive Kashmir Valley which proved to be a "success", sources said.
Multi-role helicopters are required in the armed forces for a variety of roles such as reconnaissance, transport of troops and essential supplies, casualty evacuation, helicopter gunship operations, fire platforms, search and rescue missions, and to provide humanitarian relief in the wake of natural disasters.

The HAL had developed expertise in the field of helicopters through development of the ALHs as well as the Chetak and Cheetah helicopters. HAL has already delivered 74 ALHs to the Indian armed forces and had received an order for 159 more ALHs from the Indian Army and IAF a few months ago.

http://www.risingkashmir.com/index.php? ... 5&Itemid=1

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 10 Oct 2008 20:24

IIRC, the weapons systems of WSI Dhruv and most probabaly LCH will be common to the european choppers. THL-20 and Mistral AAM I remember. Are there any other common weapon and other systems? Is the turbomecca engine also common to the european choppers?

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 11 Oct 2008 18:05

SAC gets Air Command, Control System

Thiruvananthapuram, Oct 8 (UNI) The Southern Air Command (SAC) today got a Pilot Integrated Air Command and Control System that will help in real time networking of civil and military radars in the peninsula.

''''This system will help the SAC in carrying out real time networking of civil and military radars and will act as a force multiplier for IAF in the Southern Peninsula,'' Air Marshal S Radhakrishnan, AOC-in-C of SAC said.

Air Vice Marshal Rajinder Singh, SASO, SAC was also present on the occasion, a release said here.

The system integrates the radar pictures of the IAF, Navy and the Civil radars in the Southern Peninsula through a Multi Radar Data Fusion Software and presents the complete Air Situation Picture of the Peninsula in Real Time in the SAC Headquarters.

The system would also provide facilities to support Air Defence functions like Automatic Surveillance, Identification, Threat Evaluation, Interception and Recovery. It would enable the IAF to have a bird's eye view of the air space in the entire southern region.

It would also help the IAF to monitor all civil and military air movements and avoid civil aircraft straying into unauthorised air space.

renukb · Post by **renukb** » 11 Oct 2008 18:17

Bell, Boeing quit Indian attack helicopter contest

By Siva Govindasamy

Bell Helicopter and Boeing have pulled out of India's $500 million attack helicopter competition, but some industry sources believe that New Delhi could modify some of the tender's terms to get both US manufacturers on board again.

India's defence ministry issued a request for proposals for 22 helicopters last May, and had hoped to evaluate the AgustaWestland AW129, Boeing AH-64D Apache Longbow, Bell AH-1Z SuperCobra, Eurocopter Tiger, Kamov Ka-50 and Mil Mi-28.

The companies were originally given 90 days to respond, but Boeing asked for an eight-week extension to prepare a fully compliant proposal. The ministry offered only an additional month, prompting Boeing to withdraw.

"The company studied the government's request seriously and thoroughly, and Boeing executives participated in a pre-bidder's conference in New Delhi," says Boeing.

"However, following this review of the Indian air force's attack helicopter programme RFP, Boeing regretfully concluded that it will not be able to prepare in the time allotted a fully compliant proposal that addresses India's unique requirements. This was a difficult but necessary decision," it adds.

Bell chose not to participate as India insisted on a direct purchase from the manufacturers, with its AH-1Z only available via the US government's Foreign Military Sales mechanism.

"The [Indian] government was insisting on dealing directly with the company on this, but it was not possible in this instance and Bell chose to withdraw," says a source close to the company.

Boeing believes that the Apache will remain a strong contender should there be a change of mind in New Delhi. "If future acquisition solicitation circumstances should change, Boeing respectfully requests that the numerous advantages offered by the AH-64D Apache be considered. Boeing remains committed to supporting India's long-term defence needs," says the company.

India's Hindustan Aeronautics hopes to propose its planned Light Combat Helicopter design for the tender, but the type may not be ready in time. Industry sources say that the remaining contenders submitted their proposals before the 30 September deadline, but that New Delhi is keen to have as wide a range of helicopters to choose from as possible.

"The [defence] ministry could do something to get both companies back in the fray. Ultimately, the ministry wants to have the best machines for its services and it would not be possible to make a proper decision when the Apache and Cobra are both not in the competition," says a New Delhi-based source.

The air force hopes to sign a contract within two years and complete deliveries within a further three-year period. The tender is to replace the service's ageing Mil Mi-35 fleets. Its requirements include a twin-engined design capable of operating in all weather and terrain and of deploying turret-housed guns, rockets, and air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles.

EADS and India's Defence Avionics Research Establishment will pursue a requirement for an electronic warfare self-protection suite, having jointly developed and tested a new missile warning system based on the European company's AAR-69 MILDS system.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 11 Oct 2008 21:49

Kartik wrote:There is almost nothing that is there on these gunships that cannot be integrated on the LCH from other vendors..

Except maximum payload carried in the plains. The LCH is not designed to be in the same class as these helicopters.

I agree with all of your other points though. And even the issue of payload can be resolved with higher number of machines in service.

-Vivek

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 12 Oct 2008 05:08

Indian Air Force Turns 76, Eyes Upgrades

The 76th anniversary of the Indian Air Force Oct. 8 saw an air display by 52 aircraft at the Air Force Station, Hindon, near Delhi.

The Air Force Day Parade started with Ensign formation of three MI-17 helicopters in Vic formation at a height of 60 meters and speed of 80 kilometers, closely followed by Vic formations of three each Mig-21, Mig-23, Mirage 2000 and Mig-29 aircraft. Three Sukhois in Vic formation pulled up steeply carrying out upward and outward maneuvers and there was a display of the “SARANG” helicopter display team of the IAF of four Advanced Light Helicopters.

Taking stock of the year gone by, Air Chief Fali Major said:

“India had “taken some very confident steps forward in becoming a true aerospace power. I see a future where the Indian Air Force will project aerospace power credibly within its zone of influence with precision, speed and high intensity, against a variety of objectives by seamlessly integrating all our assets to achieve very compressed decision cycles,” Major said.

“Towards achieving this...all our acquisitions and upgradations are progressing in consonance with our plans. The government has been extremely supportive in making this happen.”

The C-130J Special Operations aircraft are to operate from Hindon in a couple of years, Major added. And he stressed the air service’s continuing modernization.

“The Indian Air Force will look very different, 10 years from now!”

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Oct 2008 08:08

I believe exp has shown its better to have more of smaller AH1Z/LCH type machines than smaller
nos of AH64. US army has huge number of longbows so it doesnt apply there...they get huge nos
of everything.

more airframes can be kept in the air .... vital for a large front war like India. for Euros who barely
manage to scrape together a deployable brigade or two for expeditionary wars they can get by
with 20-40 high end helis.

helis are inherently more prone to SAMs and AAA and hence higher rate of damage can surely
be expected. it makes sense to flood the area with LCH types.

a big heli with 16 ATGMs will run out of fuel before it finds enough targets to shoot all its
missiles at. 8 ATGMs and 2 AAMs sounds like a good anti-armour loadout to me.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 12 Oct 2008 13:44

^^^ Yes, but do keep in mind that the Apache is the only attack helo to be combat tested in Sustaind High Altitude operations. The new version further improves the engine for High Alt ops.

From what i have read before. These 22 interim Attack Helos were destined to beef up our Mountain Brigades. If that is the case the Apache IMO is the best option.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Oct 2008 17:28

rkhanna wrote:^^^ Yes, but do keep in mind that the Apache is the only attack helo to be combat tested in Sustaind High Altitude operations. The new version further improves the engine for High Alt ops.
.

Where? What altitudes? Very few mountain ranges offer the altitude demands that the Himalayas do.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Oct 2008 17:37

for operations in afganisthan. apaches have operated at 20,000 feet in afganisthan. in fact vivek ahuja had posted a link on that sometime back.
as per wiki, the apaches have received continuous engine upgrades since its introduction to US army from 1690 shp/engines to 2000shp/engines.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 12 Oct 2008 18:43

Where? What altitudes? Very few mountain ranges offer the altitude demands that the Himalayas do.

As Rahul post above. In Astan. infact one of the very few Positives out of Operation Anaconda was the role of Apache. The High Altitude Capability of the Apache would do well to augment the Capability of our soon to be raised new Mountain Divisions. Also its fire power (Payload) would be equal to two LCHs.

satya · Post by **satya** » 12 Oct 2008 18:49

Can someone pls clarify how many heavy attack helos we need for mountain , plain & desert offensive IA formations ? Is it going to be one squadron ( 18 or 24 per squadron ? ) per div. size formation or at corps level ?

Is this 22 meant for testing and validating mountain warfare doctrine and order more later on ?

TIA

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 12 Oct 2008 19:25

LCH has little in common with the attack helicopters being considered, be it payload or sensor package.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 13 Oct 2008 01:01

Is this 22 meant for testing and validating mountain warfare doctrine and order more later on ?

AFAIK this tender for 22 Attack helos is an Interim Measure before the LCH gets off the ground. The LCH is also intended to operate at high altitudes and frankly if the ALH can then there shouldnt be a big problem with the LCH.

Plus we need the training. As for Ordering more. Well alot of it depends . Will the LCH go the Arjun way (Once IA gets a taste of phoren mal) ?

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 13 Oct 2008 09:42

Found this interesting thing. Anyone from BR to help him with the information he needs to make it a reality.
http://www.flightgear.org/forums/viewto ... =4&p=17855

malushahi · Post by **malushahi** » 13 Oct 2008 10:03

uddu wrote:Found this interesting thing. Anyone from BR to help him with the information he needs to make it a reality.
http://www.flightgear.org/forums/viewto ... =4&p=17855

Equally (if not more) is the poster's name.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 13 Oct 2008 10:11

malushahi wrote:Equally (if not more) is the poster's name.

What's in a name? It's only his Karma that counts. Above all he is an Indian settled in Qatar. I had provided some links that may be helpful. Others can provided open source info according to the requirement.

malushahi · Post by **malushahi** » 13 Oct 2008 10:31

uddu wrote:What's in a name?

Certainly - after all what's in a name. My apologies if that happened to rub the wrong way.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 13 Oct 2008 14:14

shiv wrote:Saw an LCA in Grey Camo landing today. Shortly before that I saw a MiG 21 trainer landing. What I had not observed for a long time was the searing rate at which the MiG 21 approaches for touchdown - even with flaps down full @ >45 degrees it seemed. - but I was standing just off the end of the runway at the 13th hole in KGA.

Another pleasant memory was evoked earlier in the afternoon - memories from Hindon with my cousin Suresh when I was a schoolboy - and the loud "whump" as the MiG 21 afterburner kicks in for take off.

Hindon...... .... . .
Reminds me of my many years in Hindon, at that time was the active base for the big beast SU-7s that were the mainstay there before the airfield was abandoned as a fighter base due to IMHO too much politics and no action by civilian administration in removing a boochad-khana in nearby village that was attracting too many birds and many bird-hit crashes. SU-7's take-off noise will easily dwarfs the takeoff roar of Mig21. And my school was few hundred yards from one of the SU-7 hangers, and when the ground crew fired up the engines for a minute or two of ground test, few times every day, all teachers will be forced to shutup.

malushahi · Post by **malushahi** » 13 Oct 2008 14:21

Arun_S wrote:And my school was few hundred yards from one of the SU-7 hangers, and when the ground crew fired up the engines for a minute or two of ground test, few times every day, all teachers will be forced to shutup.

It is reminisces like this that makes one visit BR time and again. Arun, could you give us an idea of the decade (if not the year) you were there?

sombhat · Post by **sombhat** » 13 Oct 2008 17:21

rkhanna wrote: AFAIK this tender for 22 Attack helos is an Interim Measure before the LCH gets off the ground. The LCH is also intended to operate at high altitudes and frankly if the ALH can then there shouldnt be a big problem with the LCH.

I think this is more like a one to one replacement for the Hinds in IAF (around 25 I guess). These 22 will be filling the role of heavy attack and anti armour, while the LCH will take care of light attack, troop support. (Like AH64s and AH1s with the US)

For mountain divs., IMHO the Army will be looking at the WSI Dhruv.

malushahi · Post by **malushahi** » 13 Oct 2008 23:17

http://www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=475842&sid=NAT

India`s first-ever aviation show to begin on Wednesday

Hyderabad, Oct 13: The world's largest aircraft Airbus Industrie's A-380, which can cover over half a football ground under its wingspan, would fly over the Hyderabad city on Wednesday when it arrives in India for the first-ever civil aviation airshow.

The huge double-decker four-engined aircraft, that can carry 853 passengers in an all-economy configuration and 525 in three classes, would be among at least 37 planes and helicopters of various makes on display at the first civil aviation exhibition and conference, 'India Aviation 2008', starting Wednesday at the old Begumpet Airport here.

Other aircraft, which would be on static or flying display, include Boeing 777, A-340-400, Canadian Regional Jet of Bombardier Citation, business jets of manufactured by various global leaders, Bell Helicopters, DragonFly, Cessnas, Indian-made Pushpak and Indian firm Hindavia's Russian-made regional aircraft IL-114.

With the United States being the partner country, almost all major aviation-related companies and officials from there are scheduled to participate.

While US officials include the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Authority (FAA), Robert A Sturgell, CEOs and other top officials of most of the major players in the global civil aviation industry would also be present at the event organised by the Civil Aviation Ministry and FICCI.

Top honchos of the aviation industry from India and abroad would be part of the event, including Air India CMD Raghu Menon, Kingfisher chief Vijay Mallya, former US FAA Administrator Marion C Blakey, AAI chief K Ramalingam, EADS CEO Yves Guillame, GoAir MD Jeh Wadia, Air Arabia CEO Adel Ali and top-brass of various airport operators, engine, avionics and aircraft manufacturers like Boeing, Airbus, Bombardier and Bell Helicopters.

The European aircraft major, Airbus Industrie, would fly in a brand new A-319 from Hamburg to be delivered to Air India as its seventh such aircraft. It would display a wide-body A-330 for the Kingfisher Airlines.

Civil Aviation Minister Praful Patel would inaugurate the four-day event, which would also see a fly-past by Surya Kirans from Indian Air Force followed by para sailing, para-jumping and hot air ballooning by the Aero Club of India.

The event will provide a platform to forge new partnerships and collaborations between global and domestic companies and provide a platform for meeting between representatives of the industry and government officials.

A conference on the problems faced by the civil aviation sector would be held on Thursday to discuss cutting edge issues and help to prepare a roadmap for its future development in the country.

Around 150 exhibitors from leading aviation and allied industries from 18 countries have confirmed participation in the event.

This is the first civil airshow in the country. Earlier, the show at Bangalore used to combine both civil and military aspects of aviation. Now onwards, the Bangalore airshow, now scheduled early next year, would be exclusively for defence aviation, while the show at Hyderabad would serve the civil aviation sector every alternate year.

Bureau Report

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Oct 2008 07:36

Arun_S wrote:. SU-7's take-off noise will easily dwarfs the takeoff roar of Mig21. And my school was few hundred yards from one of the SU-7 hangers, and when the ground crew fired up the engines for a minute or two of ground test, few times every day, all teachers will be forced to shutup.

I can only imagine what the Su 7 used to sound like. But I get a thrill when I feel those jet engines make the air in your lungs vibrate and you feel the roar inside you.

Ajay K · Post by **Ajay K** » 14 Oct 2008 20:51

Folks, if IAF were to have a Excalibur sort of competition(bombing) within the country across services who would win. Mig-27, Jags, Hawk, Mirages, MKI or Sea Harriers?
It would mostly be a competition of men(pilots) more than machine I suppose.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 14 Oct 2008 20:55

sombhat wrote:For mountain divs., IMHO the Army will be looking at the WSI Dhruv.

As far as I can tell, the LCH is being designed for supporting mountain divisions, with the WSI Dhruv acting in a secondary role.

rkhanna wrote:In Astan. infact one of the very few Positives out of Operation Anaconda was the role of Apache. The High Altitude Capability of the Apache would do well to augment the Capability of our soon to be raised new Mountain Divisions. Also its fire power (Payload) would be equal to two LCHs.

Don't get carried away by news reports on Apache effectiveness. No doubt it was vital and all that, but these birds were operating under severe restrictions as far as performance was concerned. Pilots reported not having enough power for OGE Hover (though power existed for IGE Hover), which is vital in initiating any standoff attack maneuver in a helicopter. They were thus forced to conduct what amounted to racetrack patterns, flying overhead with guns blazing but with highly reduced weapons effectiveness. These racetrack patterns though effective against the Taliban forces, would prove suicidal against a first class enemy like the Chinese or Pakistanis given the low approach speeds.

Technically speaking, if the helicopter cannot hover OGE, and is forced to conduct racetrack pattern attacks on the enemy, then it is better off having a much faster ground attack aircraft do the job from relative safety and with munitions designed to be dispersed in that kind of attack like Napalm etc. They would have more accuracy, more chance of surviving and do more damage.

At this point I would like to remind everyone that under these conditions the LCH could easily hover in both IGE and OGE conditions.

However to give credit where it is due, the Apaches being used back then had 701-C engines. If they went ahead with the 701-D engines, the hover OGE capabilities of the LCH and the Apache add up to roughly the same (for same mission requirements). But that's hover OGE at service ceiling ROC. For combat ROC requirements on the battlefield above 17000 feet as required in the Himalayas, the Apache carry's no payload except gun ammunition for a maximum range of 100Km. By comparison, the LCH can carry around 300 Kg of weapons apart from the gun ammunition for the same range.

So my conclusion was that the Apache wasn't designed as a very high altitude bird like the LCH designed specifically for the job. In the plains however, the Apache is definitely better than the LCH given its heavy nature against the latter's light nature. But does that justify procuring a completely new helicopter at huge cost when more LCH can be procured for the same requirement?

-Vivek

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 14 Oct 2008 20:57

Ajay

they have competitions (although may involve other parameters also)

At one point the M2Ks would win regularly - although a Mig 27 sqd did pull a surprise.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 14 Oct 2008 21:01

Rahul M wrote:for operations in afganisthan. apaches have operated at 20,000 feet in afganisthan. in fact vivek ahuja had posted a link on that sometime back.
as per wiki, the apaches have received continuous engine upgrades since its introduction to US army from 1690 shp/engines to 2000shp/engines.

Rahul, can you provide a link for that 20000 Feet altitude reference. The link I had posted mentioned no altitude above 13500 feet MSL (Mean Sea Level).

Operation Anaconda Apache crews were reporting trouble trying to fly over 12000 Feet peaks with things like fuel flow limiting, RPM dropping etc. During Summer they could not even hover OGE beyond Kandahar altitudes (3500 feet)!!!

I find this in complete contradiction with the 20,000 feet value mentioned above. With the 701-D engines they could "possibly" have reached this altitude after stripping down to bare minimum fuel and payload requirements and that too at forward speeds. Was this value you mentioned in fact for Apaches with 701-D engines?

Thanks

-Vivek

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Oct 2008 21:02

isnt the Mi35 also incapable of hover and indulges in fast moving flyby attacks?
I have seen footage of a pair attacking mujahideen positions...one would dive,
fire and climb out to circle back and the second would enter the dive.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 14 Oct 2008 21:10

Singha wrote:isnt the Mi35 also incapable of hover and indulges in fast moving flyby attacks?
I have seen footage of a pair attacking mujahideen positions...one would dive,
fire and climb out to circle back and the second would enter the dive.

The Mi-25/35 had a different design philosophy behind it. The Russians wanted it to act like a fixed wing aircraft like the IL-2 of WW-II fame. As such every last nut and bolt designed for the Mi-25 was designed for fast forward speeds at low altitude. Even the main rotor attachment was slightly tilted to the side to keep the fuselage and hence the crew in the upright position at high forward speeds. Its weapons stubs were designed to generate lift just like a fixed wing aircraft and reduce the power requirement during forward flight. It was only later that the Soviets decided to emulate the NATO tactics after a drastic increase in anti-helicopter defenses across the region. They also made the chopper like a damned tank with massive armor around every critical component.

The end result was a helicopter singularly unsuitable for high altitude operations involving hover. Its heavy weight and low power engine and aerodynamics designed for forward flight make it unsuitable for stand-off attacks beyond 7000 Feet MSL.

-Vivek

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Oct 2008 06:33

This year it is 50 years since the IAF inducted the Gnat and it was a unique fighter - both for enthujingos like me as well as for the pilots themselves. The Gnat people of the IAF are having a get together this year and a web page has been put up for reminiscences.

Since the web page is both extremely fascinating for an a/c enthusiast as well as freely accessible, I am linking it here. Reading it gives an idea of how pilots think and feel - rather than the misconceptions jingos sometimes have about flying.

I post the link with a little joke from one of the pages:

The Gnat was a small aircraft and much of its renowned advantage arose from its size because it could not easily be seen in the air till quite late, at times too late. There was this famous quote by a Gnat pilot about the psyche of PAF Sabre pilots making the rounds in the PAF, “In 1965 the Pakis used to dream of the Gnat at night, because they could not see it during the day’. Just flying the Gnat was a challenge in itself and it took much briefing and counseling to keep it under control on the take off itself. If you survived that first time then you were well on your way to becoming a Gnat pilot. It shot off the ground in no time at all and once the undercarriage was raised reached for the heavens like no other aircraft could.

http://gnat50years.in/

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 15 Oct 2008 10:09

Rahul, can you provide a link for that 20000 Feet altitude reference. The link I had posted mentioned no altitude above 13500 feet MSL (Mean Sea Level).

vivek, I think I made a mistake. it was not in the link you provided but somewhere else.
I'm trying to find it but not much luck till now.
here's one link that casually mentions 20,000 feet in relation to apache but I don't think you can bet on it.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_q ... _n19475735

"It's an irony that these fine pilots can fly in the arduous circumstances of Afghanistan in mountains approaching 20,000 feet in thin air. It's just ironic that we lose them here."

this is from the person commanding the utah guards on losing two apache pilots in an accident unrelated to afghanistan.
boeing site also mentions ceiling as 21,000 feet for the 64A. I know that's probably showcase specification but the considerable improvement in engine power would have upped the real ceiling quite a bit.

anyway, the point is, I was not talking of op anaconda but later operations, when the engine upgrade had already taken place.
apaches in op anaconda were nothing to write home about:

Heavy fire and environmental limitations hampered the Apache’s ability to
provide CAS. As one pilot put it, “if you hover, you will die, so move and shoot.”202
Yet the pilots of the 101st Aviation Regiment had not routinely trained for “running
gunfire” missions, making much of their fire inaccurate.203 Mountainous terrain further
limited the Apaches’ effectiveness, disrupting line of sight radio communications and
making coordination with other aircraft and ground forces difficult. Five of the seven
Apaches were eventually disabled by enemy ground fire and forced to withdraw.

from HIGH ALTITUDE WARFARE: THE KARGIL CONFLICT AND THE FUTURE by Marcus P. Acosta.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 15 Oct 2008 11:01

Rahul M wrote:boeing site also mentions ceiling as 21,000 feet for the 64A. I know that's probably showcase specification but the considerable improvement in engine power would have upped the real ceiling quite a bit.

It has indeed improved the performance significantly. The Boeing website mentions a Hover IGE altitude limit at MRP (Maximum Rated Power, Both engines operative) as around 15,000 feet while the Hover OGE under same engine conditions comes out as around 12,000 feet. I am inclined to believe these values as they match my own calculations for a full ROC condition. For the Apache this comes out to be 11 m/sec.

Now this value is pretty high, and a more reasonable value for ROC is normally the Combat ROC at 2.5 m/sec (This being the minimum value required by most Military forces). If you recall, the values in my previous post related to the hover performance at Combat ROC.

In any case, the point I am trying to make is that the service ceiling value of 21,000 feet is militarily useless for most helicopters during combat missions unlike fixed wing aircraft for which it can prove crucial. For helicopters the main parameters are the Hover ceilings (and that too in OGE conditions). If the helicopter cannot do pop-up stand-off attacks on the enemy beyond a certain altitude and is forced to do "firing runs", it goes into the kamikaze mode against the anti-air weapons of today.

Interestingly, where the AH-64 is limited to 12,000 feet Hover OGE, the LCH can do the same until 17,500 feet. Just one of the inherent advantages of a design optimized for high altitude against the brute force being applied for the AH-64.

BTW, from your above reference:

Heavy fire and environmental limitations hampered the Apache’s ability to
provide CAS. As one pilot put it, “if you hover, you will die, so move and shoot.”

Just a reminder that this is somewhat contradictory to what you would expect in that standing off at long range and hovering behind cover and doing pop-up attacks should technically bring safety with it rather than danger as compared to actually flying over the enemy itself, well within rifle fire range.

What the pilot is actually referring to is the inability of the Apache to hover at those altitudes. And in reality you don't even need to hover in order to fall out of the sky due to lack of power. If you slow down your airspeed enough, you can still fall out of the sky. And this is a problem if your training and instincts have been honed on doing hovering attacks. In other words, pilots who spot an enemy and instinctively pull back on the cyclic to slow down and hover will lose altitude and crash into the terrain below at those altitudes before even being able to open fire!

Overall it goes to show the extremely dangerous work that high altitude helicopter operations are.

-Vivek

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 15 Oct 2008 11:13

Rahul thanks for posting the thesis by Mr Acosta...boss is away been reading it....since you posted it

I recommend it to everyone as its quite informative and provides a unique third person military perspective.

On another note what are the chances that we can use the new MRUAV in the himalayas.
Some time back I read reports where they said that the AH64 D's back seater can control UAVs flying ahead. Now I understand that it would be quite difficult to do that with a rotary UAV (then again maybe its not..

) Besides the MRUAV could pass vital recce data and co-ordinates to the a flight of LCHs so they may be able to plan their route accordingly.
The MRUAV flying ahead of LCHs can scout around and if possible could be armed with HELINAGs to engage potential threats.