Indian Military Aviation

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Rahul M
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Rahul M »

Just a reminder that this is somewhat contradictory to what you would expect in that standing off at long range and hovering behind cover and doing pop-up attacks should technically bring safety with it rather than danger as compared to actually flying over the enemy itself, well within rifle fire range.
other than that it may also mean that apache can't carry the stand-off weapons at those height and has to rely on the cannon only and therefore has to come in close.

btw, what do you think of the attack chopper competition ? it's certainly not limited to heavy attack choppers, mangusta has a lower max TOW than LCH at 5100 kg and tiger is about the same at 6000 kg. I really don't see the reason of including them in the competition.
what roles can you envisage for these that the LCH can't ?

on another note, have you had a look at the chetak UAV proposal ? till we get satcom force wide, they can be used in the mountains as comm pickets ! good eh ?
sunilUpa wrote: LCH has little in common with the attack helicopters being considered, be it payload or sensor package.
could you explain ? AFAIK, LCH's sensor and weapons fit is not that much different from the choppers mentioned.

anand glad to be of help in your productive time-pass ! :twisted:
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by kit »

Cross posting this

How feasible is it for India to join a 5th Gen fighter / UAV / UUWV project with the EU probably as part of offsets ? Good or bad or downright stupid or totally unfeasible as PAKFA is coming up although with much less Indian involvement than could be wished.

Now if this is feasible how is it / should be .. how full a partner can India hope to be in this relationship ?

Some brain storming in this direction is good as i think this could be a very distinct possibility .. and avoid mistakes like that with pakfa.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by krishnan »

We are not getting PAK-FA's
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by andy B »

Rahul Saar,

That time pass per se' is quite important and I must say integral as it adds to my knowledge base....now all I need to do is to make my boss believe there is a working relation between banking and the Indian military... :rotfl:

Quick question the trishul blog says that the Chetak UAV can carry a 220 kg paylod...is that independent of sensors (HMOSP, RADAR, etc) meant for weapons only???

If it has a decent payload capability then these can definately used to do small scale supply drops and for regular patrolling armed with gun pods in addition to be used as comm pickets...also maybe the DRDO should think of maying laser guided rockets as the HMOSP has a laser tracker in there...
Last edited by andy B on 15 Oct 2008 11:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by andy B »

krishnan wrote:We are not getting PAK-FA's
:shock:

I thought that we are getting PAK FAs only that they will be single seat variants with our so-called avionics while sharing the basic layout (engines, basic design, etc). Apologies if I m wrong... :mrgreen:
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Nayak »

US companies quit IAF's attack helicopter bids

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/New ... 597862.cms

15 Oct, 2008, 1046 hrs IST, PTI
Print EMail Discuss Share Save Comment Text:
NEW DELHI: Two US chopper manufacturers, Bell and Boeing, have opted out of the Indian Air Force's tenders for attack helicopters, giving a severe blow to India's effort to get six global companies to participate in the bids.

"The US companies have refused to submit their bids for two very different reasons and have already explained their decision to the Indian defence top brass," a Defence Ministry official said here on Wednesday.

India had released the tenders - Request for Proposals (RFP) in defence parlance - in May this year for 22 combat helicopters to augment its fleet of around 30 Mi-25 and Mi-35 attack helicopters.

Of the six global players asked to submit their bids within three months, India received proposals from the Russian Kamov and Mil, Italian-British AgustaWestland and French Eurocopter.

Boeing, after showing initial interest in the bids, refused to submit it later, as it wanted more time to prepare a concrete proposal meeting all qualitative requirements of IAF.

It sought an eight-week extension of the deadline, originally set for August 23 this year. However, the Defence Ministry refused to provide such a long time, considering that India wanted to complete the procurement of the 22 attack helicopters before May 2011.

The government, on receiving the request from Boeing first agreed to extend the deadline by another 30 days to reset the last date for submission of the bids in September.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Mihir.D »

krishnan wrote:We are not getting PAK-FA's
Can you clarify or is it that we will be getting PAK-FA MKI.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by narayana »

Mihir.D wrote:
krishnan wrote:We are not getting PAK-FA's
Can you clarify or is it that we will be getting PAK-FA MKI.
i think he means that we will get Twin Engine FGFA instead of Pak-Fa,PAK-FA will be for Russian air force
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by vivek_ahuja »

Rahul M wrote:btw, what do you think of the attack chopper competition ? it's certainly not limited to heavy attack choppers, mangusta has a lower max TOW than LCH at 5100 kg and tiger is about the same at 6000 kg. I really don't see the reason of including them in the competition.
what roles can you envisage for these that the LCH can't ?
Honestly speaking, I think this entire attack helicopter competition is a big joke.

You have the Apache, Mi-28 and Ka-50 on one side being the truly heavy class machines that perform much better at low altitudes than the LCH but barely touch the upper altitude regimes that the LCH can work at and then you have the Mangusta and Tiger on the other hand that are just as light as the LCH in terms of weight but thanks to lower capability power-plants than the LCH, still don't come into the high altitude regime of the LCH. As you say, there is no reason why they have even been included as their performance comparison is poor versus the LCH.

Perhaps the avionics might be an issue, but even that requires a leap of imagination to accept.

-Vivek
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by vivek_ahuja »

Rahul M wrote:on another note, have you had a look at the chetak UAV proposal ? till we get satcom force wide, they can be used in the mountains as comm pickets !
There was a Flight Safety issue with the Chetak Helicopter back in the 1980s when they were being used in the Himalayas alongside the Cheetahs. It turns out that the Chetak is less optimized to work in the density-altitudes of the Himalayas than the Cheetah. There were apparently several crashes back then when pilots flew Chetaks to say 16,000 feet altitude in summer, when in fact the high air temperature outside meant that they were flying at much higher density-altitudes. Needless to say that there were stabilization failures that caused numerous crashes before the Chetak was banned from flying above a certain altitude. Beyond that altitude the Cheetah took over. The same stabilization problem was not there for Naval Chetaks flying as they were in low altitude regimes.

Point is that the NRUAV proposal with the Chetak as the base airframe is reasonable, but in order for it to work alongside Indian Army formations in the Himalayas, it will have to be up-engined or the concept will have to be transferred to something like the Cheetah. Also, it remains to be seen as to what changes have been made to the overall mass of the machine with all the automated flight control systems in place of the human pilots.

JMT.

-Vivek
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by satya »

In the RFP for attack helos for IAF, is there something related to combat flying requirements in high altitude environment ? If yes then it definitely means that any new attack helo will have at min. a new upgraded engine than one in current inventory of these helos if so then it brings out another question is it realistically possible to actually R&D an engine and certify it in under 3 years ( iirc 3 yrs is the time after signing of contract for first machine to arrive ) ?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Rahul M »

what you are saying would require a new built machine. no other attack chopper is custom-made for high altitude warfare other than the LCH.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Singha »

HAL has already demoed a Chetan version of Chetak equipped with the Dhruv's turbomeca engine and no doubt
the ardigen could also slide in.

is the IN UAV proposal with the new engine or old existing engine?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Raj Malhotra »

Navy is restricted to Cheeetah-chetak size for the size requrirement relative to ship unless they go in for much bigger choppers with rotor folding mechanisms.

Be as it may, Can't IAF-IA take a lead in developing a UCAV on LCH or weapon intergrated Dhruv platform. It will give good loiter capacity, weapon firing capacity and also high altititude ability.

vivek_ahuja wrote:
Rahul M wrote:on another note, have you had a look at the chetak UAV proposal ? till we get satcom force wide, they can be used in the mountains as comm pickets !
There was a Flight Safety issue with the Chetak Helicopter back in the 1980s when they were being used in the Himalayas alongside the Cheetahs. It turns out that the Chetak is less optimized to work in the density-altitudes of the Himalayas than the Cheetah. There were apparently several crashes back then when pilots flew Chetaks to say 16,000 feet altitude in summer, when in fact the high air temperature outside meant that they were flying at much higher density-altitudes. Needless to say that there were stabilization failures that caused numerous crashes before the Chetak was banned from flying above a certain altitude. Beyond that altitude the Cheetah took over. The same stabilization problem was not there for Naval Chetaks flying as they were in low altitude regimes.

Point is that the NRUAV proposal with the Chetak as the base airframe is reasonable, but in order for it to work alongside Indian Army formations in the Himalayas, it will have to be up-engined or the concept will have to be transferred to something like the Cheetah. Also, it remains to be seen as to what changes have been made to the overall mass of the machine with all the automated flight control systems in place of the human pilots.

JMT.

-Vivek
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Lalmohan »

vivek_ahuja wrote: Also, it remains to be seen as to what changes have been made to the overall mass of the machine with all the automated flight control systems in place of the human pilots.

JMT.

-Vivek
take out other life support systems, cockpit instruments and controls, safety systems - should bring the weight down quite a bit. The only problem i have with this concept is that the chetak is large and there is a limit to how many can be carried on a ship. perhaps a bottom up light weight platform might have been better... however i see this is a quick way into service - which is more important
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Singha »

most of the rotor UAV designs of yore have been for tactical army use at the brigade or batallion level, hence quite small and lowish in range. Dornier did have some bigger puppies with a automated
landing system based off a flatbed truck. I dont think any of them were carrying radars.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_GEAMOS/SEAMOS

for compactness, all purpose built rotor UAVs have the contra rotating dual props.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by vivek_ahuja »

Singha wrote:is the IN UAV proposal with the new engine or old existing engine?
There was no new engine mentioned in the NRUAV proposal as far as I know. Might have to go check the previous articles on the matter. Having said that, the NRUAV concept does not require the new engine desperately, given its operational regimes. The problem only comes into the picture when the Army tries to turn the NRUAV into a ARUAV for high altitude operations. This machine is highly unsuitable for any land based operations.

-Vivek
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by andy B »

Vivek Saar I was under the impression that the NRUAV will be upengined to use the Shakti.

If it is indeed upengined then together with the removal of all life support systems, cockpit instruments and controls, safety systems should give it a decent payload capability. Although you need to take into account the weight of the sensors that it will carry before determining a external payload (weapons) capacity :?:

I understand that this might not be the best source of information however the option or engine upgrade does exist.
http://**************/2008/1 ... shape.html
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by kit »

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i= ... =ASI&s=AIR

some An-32 aircraft also will be upgraded with systems so they can perform maritime patrol functions
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by neerajb »

Singha wrote:for compactness, all purpose built rotor UAVs have the contra rotating dual props.
MQ-8 is a naval UAV (almost in the same category as chetak based NRUAV) which uses tail rotor. IMHO the diameter of the main rotor is a bigger concern than total length for ship stowage.

Cheers...
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by sum »

kit wrote:http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i= ... =ASI&s=AIR

some An-32 aircraft also will be upgraded with systems so they can perform maritime patrol functions
If the an-32 is being contemplated for maritime ops, wonder if it makes sense to use the il-76 itself as a naval AWACs airframe since we would already have the Phalcons?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by renukb »

Absolutely irrelevant post to the thread.
I've already requested you once not to post OT news.
Such posting pattern would attract board warnings in the future.
Rahul.
Last edited by Rahul M on 16 Oct 2008 11:50, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: OT post edited.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by PaulJI »

Singha wrote:most of the rotor UAV designs of yore have been for tactical army use at the brigade or batallion level, hence quite small and lowish in range. Dornier did have some bigger puppies with a automated
landing system based off a flatbed truck. I dont think any of them were carrying radars..
The Camcopter S-100 is validated for naval ops, having been thoroughly tested on a variety of ships, including a 400 ton patrol boat. That's been flown with the Selex PicoSAR AESA synthetic aperture radar, & has enough payload capacity for an EO or IR sensor in addition. The RN & Spain are looking at it.

Much smaller than a Chetak, & not a substitute for a proper helicopter, but I think a useful supplement. Saab has something similar (Skeldar), & EADS some bigger designs.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Singha »

our CG ships sound like they could use it as a cheaper alternative to manned choppers.
Herons could focus on wide area surveillance while the CG ship would launch its UAV
once it reached the target area.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by kit »

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... t-bed.html

Blackswift

Any idea of the flight schedule / demonstrators for the India hypersonic aircraft project ?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Mihir.D »

kit wrote:http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... t-bed.html

Blackswift

Any idea of the flight schedule / demonstrators for the India hypersonic aircraft project ?
I would be very surprised if it actually gets tested after openly. We would only hearing about some random tests and then one fine day there will be a single successful test and next we know its being inducted into the armed forces. And we here on BR will discuss how on earth can such a new technology be cleared after just 1 test :wink:
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by sum »

We would only hearing about some random tests and then one fine day there will be a single successful test and next we know its being inducted into the armed forces
Small addition: random Lakshya tests :wink:
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Katare »

Anand Barve wrote:Vivek Saar I was under the impression that the NRUAV will be upengined to use the Shakti.

If it is indeed upengined then together with the removal of all life support systems, cockpit instruments and controls, safety systems should give it a decent payload capability. Although you need to take into account the weight of the sensors that it will carry before determining a external payload (weapons) capacity :?:

I understand that this might not be the best source of information however the option or engine upgrade does exist.
http://**************/2008/1 ... shape.html
For A RWUAV you would want a smaller engine to reduce fuel consumption and increase endurance.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Mihir.D »

sum wrote:
We would only hearing about some random tests and then one fine day there will be a single successful test and next we know its being inducted into the armed forces
Small addition: random Lakshya tests :wink:
Great , so somebody agrees with me :)
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Drevin »

ahem .... someone became a BRFite from a trainee recently :)
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Mihir.D »

Drevin wrote:ahem .... someone became a BRFite from a trainee recently :)
Celebrating an year on BR :D .
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by krishnan »

Still have two more days to go
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by kit »

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by sanjaychoudhry »

Jodhpur and Chhabua to be next Su-30 bases

To strengthen its air combat machinery along the borders with both Pakistan and China, India has decided to deploy its air superiority Su-30MKI fighter aircraft in Jodhpur in Rajasthan and Chhabua in Assam.

"We have decided to deploy the next two new squadrons of Su-30MKIs in Jodhpur and Chhabua," a highly-placed IAF officer told a news agency here on Sunday.

IAF will get these warplanes by the end of this plan period. "We are hoping that both these bases will be operational with Su-30s by the end of the 2007-12 plan period," the officer said.

Jodhpur will be the first Su-30MKI base along the Pakistan border. Till now, the IAF has deployed its main strike fighter either in Lohegaon near Pune or closer to China in Bareilly.

At the moment, IAF has three squadrons of Su-30 MKIs, two of which are based at Air Force Station (AFS) Lohegaon and the third is stationed at AFS Bareilly.

The fourth squadron of Su-30s for the IAF will be raised at Lohegaon in February next year and one of the existing Su-30 squadrons from Lohegaon will be moved to Tezpur in Assam by 2009.

IAF has started operating Su-30s in high-altitude areas too and currently one of the three squadrons is conducting practise flights from the Leh air base in Jammu and Kashmir.

India is already in the process of integrating its potent indigenous BrahMos supersonic cruise missile onto the IAF's Su-30s.

"We are currently working on integrating the deadly cruise missile on the biggest fighter aircraft in our inventory," the officer said.

IAF is planning to start trials of Su-30s integrated with BrahMos missiles by the end of this year or early next year.

"Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will start carrying out the trials by the end of this year or early next year. Both India and Russia will be working together to achieve this objective," the IAF officer said.

IAF has plans of inducting a squadron of BrahMos integrated Su-30s by 2012.

Though both New Delhi and Moscow, who jointly developed the missile, are working together to integrate the missile onto the Su-30s, Indian Air Force will be the first to make the system operational.

The Su-30MKI Block-III would be used during the trials of the BrahMos missile upon integration. The Block-III aircraft were first inducted into the IAF last year.


http://www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=477216&sid=REG
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Raveen »

kit wrote:How low can a Jaguar go ?

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/aircr ... small.html
PHOTOSHOP!
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Kakarat »

Raveen wrote:
kit wrote:How low can a Jaguar go ?

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/aircr ... small.html
PHOTOSHOP!
The Jaguar can really fly that Low
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Raveen »

Kakarat wrote:
Raveen wrote: PHOTOSHOP!
The Jaguar can really fly that Low
Impressive video...
I dont doubt it can fly that low...what I AM SAYING IS...that pic is photoshopped (in my humble opinion)
since the shadow doesnt add up with the implied position w.r.t. to the ground and its altitude
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by sum »

Kakarat wrote:
Raveen wrote: PHOTOSHOP!
The Jaguar can really fly that Low
:eek: :eek: :shock:
Amazing vid!!!!
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Kakarat »

http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=43878

OFFER OF BOEING BUSINESS JETS TO INDIA

The Indian Air Force (IAF) inducted the first Boeing Business Jet (BBJ) aircraft on 4 August 2008. The second BBJ aircraft is scheduled to arrive in the third week of October 2008 and the third aircraft during the first week of January 2009. The aircraft has a range of 3140 nautical miles and a capacity to carry 60 passengers.



Necessary guidelines for use of VIP aircraft of the IAF are already in existence. These are being implemented meticulously by the concerned agencies. These guidelines are applicable for the new BBJ inducted into the IAF.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Sugrib Singh and Shri Kishanbhai V Patel in Lok Sabha today.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by sanjaychoudhry »

India reveals plans for five-seat light aircraft
By Siva Govindasamy

Indian car manufacturer Mahindra & Mahindra and the country's National Aerospace Laboratories are jointly developing a five-seat light aircraft, and plan to manufacture two prototypes each in 2009, it was revealed at the show.

NAL will be responsible for getting Indian certification for the NM5-100, while Mahindra subsidiary Mahindra Aerospace is responsible for certification outside the country. The aircraft is targeted at the air taxi, training, and medical evacuation markets, and NAL and Mahindra could jointly manufacture the type if there are enough orders.

Powered by a Lycoming IO-540 engine, the aircraft will have a maximum take-off weight of 1,525kg (3,3360lb). It will have an all-metal frame with composite cowling and fairings, NAL said.

The standard version of the aircraft will have conventional instruments, standalone avionics, limited cabin environment control and basic audio functions. The de luxe version will have a glass cockpit with electronic flight instrument systems, autopilot with GPS enabled navigation and communication systems, and air conditioning.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... craft.html
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