Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

[shiv]

To any observer among Hindus the lesson is clear. It is necessary to agitate and be violent. The Indian government will bend and listen to violence and grievances.

This part is scary.

Recall the grievance of the jammuites that erupted in mass protests this yr. And that of the Ladakhis also. The the valley IMs are getting preferential treatment because they are openly anti-India.

But shiv saar, lemme play devil's advocate here. Isn't GoI being chanakyan in egging TSP to be ever more islamic by not obliging them their pet fantasies about eevil yindia? Coz the best way to consign TSP to the dustbin is to get them to be ever more islamic than they already are. And whilst TSP is alive, not bending over backwards to accomodate the restive minorities would've entailed civil war on a nascent, struggling India. No?

Once TSP is gone (it has already outlived its usefulness to its western sponsors), J&K among other problems can be solved much more steadily and the ghost of nehruvian secularism can finally and formally be laid to rest. Let a secularism with Indian characteristics - that enshrines respect to all religions - rise up in its stead.

Too Chanakyan.

Like Tom the cat running off the edge a pier while escaping from a dog Indian fake secularism will suddenly find that it does not have a leg to stand on.

Imagine for a minute that Pakistan had become a famously successful Asian Tiger and India had remained at its Hindu rate of growth, Indians would then have compared themselves with Pakistan the same way as they do with China. India say "Oh the communist system is bad, but they are able to do things quickly and force things on their population. At least we have democracy and secularism"

So faced with a successful Pakistan India would have said "We wish Pakistan well. But we are democratic and secular. All religious minorities live in harmony in India"

And in fact if you look at the period from 1947 to 1965 Pakistan (with US aid $) was exactly such an Asian Tiger and had the reputation of being an Asian Tiger. And India reacted exactly the way I have described to Pakistan's success.

What I am trying to ay is that India did not know in 1947 if Hinduism is a liability or an asset, and Indians were not sure if Islam was a liability or an asset in governance. India therefore decided not to bet on religion, but decided to bet on secularism.

Pakistan on the other hand, assumed that Islam (not just any religion, Islam and Islam alone) was its best bet. After 60 years of betting on Islam for governance. Pakistan is a failure.

After 60 years of betting on secularism for governance, India is beginning to show some hallmarks of success. But when you look deeper into that success you find that the success is not making everyone happy. It is being pointed out to all Indians that Indian success has not translated to the success of Indian Muslims.

Why?

Does this translate into a failure of secularism? NOBODY IN INDIA IS SUPPOSED TO SAY THIS!!

Could there be a problem with the Muslim community - specifically with Islam? BUT NOBODY ANYWHERE IS ALLOWED TO SAY THIS!!

So who is the default entity to be blamed? Could it be Hindus?

What you are suggesting Vsudhir, is that it is somehow Indian Chanakyan-ness that has pushed Pakistan into failure. An extension of the same view that that it is Hindu Cahnakyan-ness that has kept Indian Muslims down. So, by your "Devil's advocate" statement you are implying that the causes of failure of people in the Islamic state of Pakistan as well as the failure of Indian Muslims can be traced to Hindus. You are reaching the very conclusion that everyone else like Pakistan , our fake liberal seculars, Martha Nussbaum and others want to reach.

Let me accept that I am wrong and that your statement is correct.

Now please explain to me WHY Hindus can be held responsible for Pakistan's failure as well as the failure of Indian Muslims to develop? I will stop merely by pointing out that the ONLY way you can "prove" this is by making the sort of arguments about Hindus that are made by Nussbaum and others - as a fundamentally flawed group.

Let me accept even that. Hindus are flawed and therefore they do bad things. But where is the evidence that Islam itself is not a failure? In this world, pointing out a basic fact that Islam has failed is a problem. It is OK to point out that Hindus can be at fault. This is the form of secularism that moder India's formation was based on.

At Independence, Islam was considered good enough to be the basis of a state - Pakistan

At Independence everyone accepted that Hinduism could not be, should not be, and would not be the basis of a state. The new state, India would have no state religion. The lack of credentials of Hinduism to be the basis of governance in India was a fundamental premise in the formation of India. All Indians accept that as Indian citizens.

But how can they conclude that Islam is anything better in the face of ample evidence that islam is a liability rather than an asset?

[samuel]

So, why has nobody come out and said Islam has a problem, when it has been obvious at least since Ayub Khan. What are these too-too-mai-mai wars we keep having with them like some bloody TT match that must be held every few years?

The losing appeasement idea, who is holding on to it and how can we show them an alternate path that is also a win so we don't keep going down the hole?

I am reminded of a dumbass who goes on saying I love you, whilst his lover goes about banging half the planet and pushing every button to break the poor sod. Sorry, but this messed up lovefest really is a macabre one-sided act. But what for, an eventual reunion? Now every body right within our land from mufti to lallu is doing this whilst all of India keeps saying, sure, equal, yes, you too, you too equal.

Were there no thinkers left after Bapuji...in the very end, deep down, people, us, indians, don't just want to hold on to power just for the sake of it, not when it comes down to our existence, can we?

Sorry, this gets me choked up like nothing else, bah.
S

[shiv]

So, why has nobody come out and said Islam has a problem, when it has been obvious at least since Ayub Khan. What are these too-too-mai-mai wars we keep having with them like some bloody TT match that must be held every few years?

The losing idea, who is holding on to it and how can we show them an alternate path that is also a win so we don't keep going down the hole?

S

1) Because we are secular
2) Anyone who says that is a communalist
3) India had to prove to Pakistan that it could develop and still be opposed to Pakistan's two nation theory.


There is another subtext to India's secularism versus Pakistan's Islam which nobody talks about, but let me say it.

When Pakistan was formed, the excuse was that Muslims would not be able to live in peace and freedom among Hindus. One of the stated reasons was that Islam itself was a superior system which would ensure the success of Pakistan.

If you look at this from another angle, the fact that India opposed Pakistan's Islamic exclusivism was a form of saying, "No Islam is not superior. It is equal and Muslims will live in equality"

In other words, India, by not conceding the superiority of Islam, and by assuming the equality of Islam with all other faiths, was by definition opposing Islam's own dictates that say that Islam is the superior and only way. The quid pro quo for India to do this was to NOT impose any sate religion on anyone. If Islam was not to be considered superior in India, neither would any other religion. This was accepted, and must be accepted by all Indians. That is what Indian secularism implies.

The question of considering Islam, or Hinduism as superior do not exist in India.

What that leaves us with in India is to ask if any of these religions (who are not superior to each other) have any defects that can pull its practitioners down?

Do you see the difference? It is one thing to say that all religions are "superior" and equal. It is a totally different ball game to start looking for problems in each religion that may serve as impediments to equality and economic improvement.

Now Hindus have accepted that Hindus had a problem with regard to inequality in the form of caste, and Hindus agreed to do what was possible to set that right

But what do you tell Muslims? if Islamic leaders and people are already convinced that their way is perfect, what do you tell them? Where can they improve? so Muslims were told nothing and have been allowed to continue their perfect system.

In Pakistan the "perfect system" of Islam has broken down completely. In India the Muslims following that perfect system have remained behind other in education and development. Will nobody even allow the hint of a thought that there could be a problem with Islam that is contributing to this failure?

We are not allowed to say that because of secularism. Indian secularism allows you to be critical of Hinduism. but you are not allowed to be critical of islam that is supposed to be accepted as a perfect system Disputing that is communalism.

Is it any wonder that nobody can get through to the Muslim community without starting a communal conflict? The flawed Indian definition of secularism is at least partly to blame for its partiality in what it allows and disallows. It is fake secularism that insidiously votes to unquestioningly accept the "perfection of Islam" but yet enforces self-examination and criticism in Hinduism.

[neelkamal]

Shiv, as you already know, India is not just Hindus and Muslims - it is so many regional languages, cultures, totally different people - from Tamils to Mizos all trying to live in peace, understanding each other, it is in that way that India has succeeded despite all odds. Pakistan HAS failed IMHO. It has nothing to do with Islam - Pakhtuns, Balochs, Sindhis, Bengalis (who broke away before they could be persecuted further) are all proud people, of their unique cultural heritage and way of life. - but the Pakistani govt is unable to do anything except bomb them to oblivion if they don't do what is asked of them.

Now I dont know how much of force India has had to use to keep us together but by and large we are more peaceful, people more secure, to pursue education, arts, literature,sports, and everything, and have a "Iam an Indian" I salute the tricolor, feeling. It is that way that we have succeeded. We do not care what religion one is. It is a PERSONAL choice.

God exists in every religion - not just Hinduism. Hinduism is NOT superior to Islam or christianity. I have realised it in my life. It if for everybody to realise this beautiful truth through their own life experiences, and not to be stuffed down their throat.

I certainly feel very scared if Hindus start talking of Hindu terrorism as "Hindu dharma" - there will be widespread mayhem, and where will it end ? first it will be target the muslims, next the christians, next any politician who goes against their wishes added to their hit lsit (who cares of a few hundred innocent hindus die along, it is their bad karma and part of Kshatriya dharma fighting a holy war)
What is the guarantee that instead of the much more flexible, free religion that is practised in India, it becomes a HIndu Taliban (or Vedic Taliban as read in another thread) As a woman, I am DEAD SCARED of it. Instead of burqa it will be purdah forced down on us. I am telling you it will be the women who will suffer the most outof a very rigid religion that Hinduism will become tainted by the blood of thousands of Muslims and Christians.
How much effort our freedom fighters took to give freedom to women and have legal system separate from religion, will all be for nothing.
Our religion, our Vedantic freedom, beautiful truths will again be lost - this time there is no one invading us, but our own pig headedness.

[shiv]

I certainly feel very scared if Hindus start talking of Hindu terrorism as "Hindu dharma" - there will be widespread mayhem, and where will it end ? first it will be target the muslims, next the christians, next any politician who goes against their wishes added to their hit lsit (who cares of a few hundred innocent hindus die along, .

Correct. And you are right in feeling scared.

Now you tell me Neelkamal, why Hindus may be getting angry enough to do this? Are they mad?

Is there or is there not any basis to the idea that Hindus have had an still have a vital role to play in peace, stability and prosperity in India?

Why should there be any trouble in pointing that out?

[neelkamal]

IMO, You can give that "shreya" to our dear Congress and their very poisonous politics.
They simply ignore the plight of Hindus, rather they simply ignore the plight of a huge population of Indians, denying them proper hearing or justice just because they come from a certain religion (read Hindus).
Because of course the vote bank of Hindus is segregatd into caste votes whereas it is nto so in Indians from other communities. That is why Congress looks the other way when illegal immigrants come and grab land from Bangladesh also.

[sum]

Link

Are all terror strikes outsourced, asks Congress

Special Correspondent

NEW DELHI: The Congress on Friday stepped up its criticism of the BJP for its “double standards” on terrorism and called for a multidisciplinary task force to examine the various dimensions of the results of the Malegaon blast probe.

Stressing particularly the disclosure by one of the suspects that the Malegaon operation was outsourced, Congress spokesman Manish Tewari said here that there was need to examine whether there was any link among the Indian Mujahideen, the Students Islamic Movement of India and various organisations affiliated/inspired by the Sangh Parivar such as the Hindu Jagran Manch, the Jai Vande Mataram, the Jankalyan Samiti and the Abhinav Bharat.

In a written statement read out at the briefing, the Congress raised the question: “Is it possible that the Delhi, Varanasi, Mumbai, Hyderabad, Jaipur, Bangalore and Ahmedabad terror strikes were also the result of similar outsourcing?”

It must also be examined whether it was possible that the masterminds/financers of the various other terrorist strikes in the country were different from the executioners. “Were the foot soldiers really fronts in a perverted and cynical conspiracy?”

And, did the conspiracy to perpetrate and outsource the Malegaon terror strike end on the fringes or did it go deep into the heart of the Sangh Parivar, Mr. Tewari pondered. “It is after all incontrovertible that Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh activists have been killed while making bombs at Cheruvancherry in Kerala, Nanded in Maharashtra and Kanpur in Uttar Pradesh.”

Asked why the Congress was pressing for a multidisciplinary task force when Maharashtra’s Anti-Terrorism Squad was doing a meticulous job, Mr. Tewari said: “We are asking for such a mechanism because the conspiracy is not limited to any one State and the linkages criss-cross the country.”

I absolutely agree....the time has also come to examine the links between the Sangh and the KKK, the Chechens and the Bali bombers. There seems to be a global plot by right wing saffron terrorists to take over the world.

[shiv]

There is another subtext that is being left out by our dear secular brothers and sisters when they speak of "Muslims in India not having education and jobs" as was pointed out in the Sachar committee report.

If you are going to dissect Indian society and divide it up into "Who is Muslim and how much has he got?" and "Who is non Muslim an how much has he got?" then what is wrong if Hindus do the same things.

After all this dissection of India into who has got what and who can give how much is a game that Hindus can play too.

The "Muslims are backward so give them more" is a game that secular India is playing.

Now what if Hindus say "OK. Muslims are backward and they must be given more, but why should Hindus, who have created that extra "to give" actually give it?" Because of secularism? If we are secular we should not be dividing india up ito Hindu have more, Muslims have less. We should be saying some Indians have more, some Indians have less. Instead "secular India" deliberately chooses to be communal to say that "Muslims are backward"

if we choose to divide India into "Hindus have more, Muslims have less" then the divided community can ask what is the basis for awarding Muslims more from the Hindu kitty?

First they blame the Hindus for making Muslim lives miserable
Then they say that the extra that Hindus have contributed to the GDP should be used for giving to the Muslims.

How can the Indian government think it can get away by behaving communal when it comes to saying who is poor, but suddenly become "secular" by taking money and jobs out of Hindu hands, calling it "secular money" and "secular jobs" and handing it as freebies to Muslims.

Do Muslims in India have no accountability? If they are to be aided as fellow Indians can they not also be criticized as fellow Indians? Or is aid "secular" and criticism "communal"?

Is India supposed to give extra aid to Muslims "because of secularism" and yet fail to demand more reforms from Muslims because of the same secularism that makes us feel Muslims will feel hurt?

That is the fundamental premise of India's totally fake secularism. We need to move on. Hindus may be bad, but that does not mean we should deliberately be blind to the faults among Muslims that have ensured that anything associated with Islam has remained backward not just in India, but just about anywhere in the world.

Does Indian secularism demand that we blind ourselves to reality? Does is demand that we walk on tippy-toes around the truth lest it hurt our Muslim brothers? A huge majority of Indian Hindus admit to deep faults among Hindus and accept reforms. What is the problem for Muslims to face up to criticism and the plain truth? Does "someone else" always have to be blamed for backwardness among Islamic communities?

[chetak]

There is another subtext that is being left out by our dear secular brothers and sisters when they speak of "Muslims in India not having education and jobs" as was pointed out in the Sachar committee report.

If you are going to dissect Indian society and divide it up into "Who is Muslim and how much has he got?" and "Who is non Muslim an how much has he got?" then what is wrong if Hindus do the same things.

After all this dissection of India into who has got what and who can give how much is a game that Hindus can play too.

The "Muslims are backward so give them more" is a game that secular India is playing.

Now what if Hindus say "OK. Muslims are backward and they must be given more, but why should Hindus, who have created that extra "to give" actually give it?" Because of secularism? If we are secular we should not be dividing india up ito Hindu have more, Muslims have less. We should be saying some Indians have more, some Indians have less. Instead "secular India" deliberately chooses to be communal to say that "Muslims are backward"

if we choose to divide India into "Hindus have more, Muslims have less" then the divided community can ask what is the basis for awarding Muslims more from the Hindu kitty?

First they blame the Hindus for making Muslim lives miserable
Then they say that the extra that Hindus have contributed to the GDP should be used for giving to the Muslims.

How can the Indian government think it can get away by behaving communal when it comes to saying who is poor, but suddenly become "secular" by taking money and jobs out of Hindu hands, calling it "secular money" and "secular jobs" and handing it as freebies to Muslims.

Do Muslims in India have no accountability? If they are to be aided as fellow Indians can they not also be criticized as fellow Indians? Or is aid "secular" and criticism "communal"?

Is India supposed to give extra aid to Muslims "because of secularism" and yet fail to demand more reforms from Muslims because of the same secularism that makes us feel Muslims will feel hurt?

That is the fundamental premise of India's totally fake secularism. We need to move on. Hindus may be bad, but that does not mean we should deliberately be blind to the faults among Muslims that have ensured that anything associated with Islam has remained backward not just in India, but just about anywhere in the world.

Does Indian secularism demand that we blind ourselves to reality? Does is demand that we walk on tippy-toes around the truth lest it hurt our Muslim brothers? A huge majority of Indian Hindus admit to deep faults among Hindus and accept reforms. What is the problem for Muslims to face up to criticism and the plain truth? Does "someone else" always have to be blamed for backwardness among Islamic communities?

Shiv,
Roughly 22% of the population took away 29% of the land when Pakistan separated.
Such partitions are invariably accompanied by virtually the total exchange of the populations. This did not happen in our case because of some of our wonderful leaders. Some leaders had a mahatma complex, extending invitations to all and sundry to stay back and assuring their welfare, some were chasing after skirt, still others were busy lining their own pockets, everyone too busy to worry about India. If some muslims have chosen to stay behind in India, its because they knew full well what to expect in the land of the pure. Safer among the Hindus rather than their own kind!

How come we are still falling into the trap of what we have to give?
How much longer must we continue? Democracy means equality for all, sink or swim together. Easier for the so called minorities to integrate into the mainstream rather than the majority.
Integration meaning joining the majority in building the nation. Keep your religion and all the other bull in your homes and forget about what you are owed. The majority owe you nothing. Its time you cleared your debt to the majority, after sponging off them for decades. The taxes they pay has nurtured you. Haj payments to muslims are not done even in fanatical islamic countries. The koran expressly forbids it,but still, how come they accept it??? nay demand it!!
The Hindus are peaceable by nature and will you leave alone, if you leave them alone.
Forget about wet dreams of islamic glory. Never again! We have learned the hard way and are all too familiar with the results.

Minorities are those that come from a different racial stock or genetic pool or whatever. Aborigines in Australia, Native American Indians etc. The muslims we are talking about are from our own racial stock, linguistic and genetic makeup. Just like the Hindus sweat it out and make some progress in life, why cannot the muslims do the same?
We have changed our history and suppressed the facts of their heinous assaults on our natural peoples, culture and religion and civilization.
How much more?
This is the best opinion that I have heard in a long long time.... Good show Shiv!
" Is India supposed to give extra aid to Muslims "because of secularism" and yet fail to demand more reforms from Muslims because of the same secularism that makes us feel Muslims will feel hurt? That is the fundamental premise of India's totally fake secularism."
"Do Muslims in India have no accountability? If they are to be aided as fellow Indians can they not also be criticized as fellow Indians? Or is aid "secular" and criticism "communal?"

The old story of the camel and the tent.

[shiv]

Roughly 22% of the population took away 29% of the land when Pakistan separated.
Such partitions are invariably accompanied by virtually the total exchange of the populations. This did not happen in our case because of some of our wonderful leaders.

There is an irony here that no Indian has mentioned lost as we are in our cesspool of fake secularism.

A young man not far from where I live has married a really pretty Pakistani girl. She is the youngest daughter of a now deceased man in Lahore who used to be from these parts and wished that at least one of his children should go back to where he hails from. This old man has an attachment to his motherland - and by virtue of Indian secularism, he was able to fulfil his dream by finding a Muslim boy from India for his daughter to marry - and judging from the skin color match I would bet my ass - same community too. (Well yes they were distant relatives anyway)

India and its secularism has allowed Pakistanis to have relatives in India and Indian Muslims to have relatives in Pakistan

But Indian secularism has been unable to ensure that Hindus from India have relatives in Pakistan, while Pakistani Islamic ethnic cleansing has removed almost all traces of Hindus and Sikhs from Pakistan. It is not as though Indians do not yearn to see or stay in the place of their forefathers now in Pakistan, but that is not feasible clearly because Pakistan is for Muslims only and India is for all faiths.

The Hindu in India has to accept philosophically his loss of not being able to access the land of his forefathers in Pakistan, even as his nation does not grudge Pakistani access to what is left of his land, to renew, develop and expand family contacts within India.

India's secularism works for the Muslims of Pakistan too in a way that it cannot work for its Hindus. And Hindus are told that this is for the "common good".

What is the meaning of "common good" Does common good include Hindus in India? These are questions that governments in India will be forced to address as India develops and strengthens economically.

We are told to put Pakistan behind us but the very vulgar thoughts that created Pakistan continue to haunt us. Hindus are accused by Pakistan of being cruel to Muslims, and Hindus are told in India that they have somehow ensured inequality for Muslims in India. Why is it always the Hindus who gets blamed for others' problems? You can make th majority of Hindus give an arm and a leg in compensation for suffering and yet we have no end in sight, no sign of reduction in the flood of complaints abut what the Hindus of India are doing from a variety of foreign and Indian secular, liberal groups.

In an earlier era a Hindu who objected could be knocked on his head and told to shut up. But that option is getting more and more difficult now.

[Vikramaditya]

God exists in every religion - not just Hinduism. Hinduism is NOT superior to Islam or christianity. I have realised it in my life. It if for everybody to realise this beautiful truth through their own life experiences, and not to be stuffed down their throat.

Have you ever come across a muslim or a christian admitting that their respective religions are on equal footing with Hinduism/Jainism/Buddhism/Sikhism ?

[kvjayan]

God exists in every religion - not just Hinduism. Hinduism is NOT superior to Islam or christianity. I have realised it in my life. It if for everybody to realise this beautiful truth through their own life experiences, and not to be stuffed down their throat.

Have you ever come across a muslim or a christian admitting that their respective religions are on equal footing with Hinduism/Jainism/Buddhism/Sikhism ?

It is doubtful if Hinduism (as reflected by the leading texts/proponents) ever claimed "superiority" over other religions. On the contrary, superiority status is the raison d'tre for the prosyletising faiths who procalim "my god is supreme and yours is fake".

[vsudhir]

God exists in every religion - not just Hinduism. Hinduism is NOT superior to Islam or christianity. I have realised it in my life. It if for everybody to realise this beautiful truth through their own life experiences, and not to be stuffed down their throat.

Have you ever come across a muslim or a christian admitting that their respective religions are on equal footing with Hinduism/Jainism/Buddhism/Sikhism ?

Depends on what you mean by xtian. I know of folks in Amerika who were born xtians and who will likely have xtian funerals but who are currently non-practising/easygoing ('post-modern' lessay) who would not be averse to giving equal status to Indic belief systems. As for muslims, i really don't know of any practising IM who would even consider the idea seriously. The IMs back in engg college, who would drink like a tanki and cheer the Indian team as loudly as the rest of us kuffr against the pukis weren't much into the religion thing to start with. They considered all faiths equal, IMHO.

But again, what are the options for the indics here? (i) become like them in which case we lose some of our best characteristics and score self-goals along the way, or (ii) maintain status quo while being on the defensive against predatory tactics from the self-proclaimed superior religions.

Option (ii) looks ok for now simply because we've become inured to it through practice.

[mayurav]

Hinduism is NOT superior to Islam or christianity. I have realised it in my life. It if for everybody to realise this beautiful truth through their own life experiences, and not to be stuffed down their throat.

I wonder what "experiences" makes one say that Islam is equal equal to Hinduism. One experience I have come across is that of Sharmila Bose.

[neelkamal]

I am certainly not defending terrorists who are muslims or the taliban type Islam or politicians who are happily playing politics.

But I am definitely against Hinduism supporting terrorism as dharma - for crying out loud, if educated people start feeling like this and even posting it, we are in for a real problem.

Every religion has certain tenets, certain basic rules if you will, so that it is simple for people to understand and follow. But eventually rigidity develops - Even amongst south indians hindus there was bitter war between shaivaits and vaishnavaits - A Hindu King, shiva worshipper bliinded the eyes of a devotee/student of Ramanuja a staunch vaishnavaite who had to run away to another kingdom.

even now believe me, Iyers(shaivaites) and Iyengars(vaishnavaites) do NOT marry each other in the traditional matrimonial groom/bride hunting.

Thats the way it is. Vaishnavaites do not pray to Ganpathi/Shiva/parvati. My friend just walked past the idols in a Hindu temple in NJ, I was shocked at this rigidity!

I can only say that rigidity is diluted in Hinduism, broken time and again by seers/holy men/sages/rishis who clean up the religion and bring it in a new light to people at every generation.

So did Sufism, so are all the other sub religions within christianity. People start questioning, start thinking on their own and start changing lives. It is true for Islam also. It is not so visible thats all with all the bombs going off everywhere by muslim terrorists - the problem is they say they are doing in the name of Allah. Please read the Quran, it does not say so, to kill innocents to get what you feel is just.

[munna]

Hinduism is NOT superior to Islam or christianity. I have realised it in my life. It if for everybody to realise this beautiful truth through their own life experiences, and not to be stuffed down their throat.

I wonder what "experiences" makes one say that Islam is equal equal to Hinduism. One experience I have come across is that of Sharmila Bose.

Second that Mayurav whole argument behind the equal equal stuff is to somehow prove that the basic hard wiring and tenets of Hinduism are that same as the chauvinistic Abrahamic religions. Unlike other religions basic premise of Hinduism is that all men and their faiths are equal so where is the whole experience is nothing but a an exercise in subturfuge.

[neelkamal]

Dear munna,
Every religion is but a path - every human 'resonates' or is born in a religion, to help grow up and reach the next world. If I go on, it will be a sermon and I will be laughed out of the forum as a self styled sadhvi. Which I am not. That truth is for everybody to know, given in Vedanta crystal clear.

All I meant by saying one religion is NOT superior to others is that sometimes somethings make no sense to some people, they are better off with some rules/stories/do's and don'ts. that is easier for them to live with. They cannot deal with too many gods or goddesses, they can understand God with one name, that "He" does everything. So what ? If it helps them be good people, happy and peaceful people so be it. Thats what I meant.

[mayurav]

God with one name, that "He" does everything. So what ? If it helps them be good people, happy and peaceful people so be it.

Reality does not support this big if.

Again I wonder what "experiences" make one ignore reality and live in imagined fantasy. The one that comes to mind immediately is that of Sharmila Bose.

[Rye]

The problem with christianity is not the belief that their god is the only god. The problem is that their god died for all their sins...even the ones they are yet to commit.

Of course, given the kind of screwups humans usually are, this is taken as a license to commit as many "sins" as you want and put it on god's account. Why would anyone want to behave ethically if someone else (like jesus) is acting as a shock absorber? (Not saying "sin"ing is a bad thing -- though stuff like killing other people or lying with malicious intent is most definitely is a bad thing).

Of course, the good people who do view this the right way read it as "only for past wrongs". This helps people override their guilty conscience and get on with their lives (and get hooked on god instead of substances) --- god did not really die for all the evil a person is yet to do, surely. The whole point is not to do any "evil"...right? (using "evil" pejoratively here...it is a subjective notion to an extent).

Islam's problem is slightly different. Their god is kinda exclusivist who thinks "you are either on my side, or you are dead". This maybe a side-effect of the crusades that intended to make the holy book a war manual too. The people who updated the Koran during the crusades added a lot of nasty stuff to the religion that the islamists are now using to full effect.

JMTs

[mayurav]

Every religion has certain tenets, certain basic rules if you will, so that it is simple for people to understand and follow. But eventually rigidity develops - Even amongst south indians hindus there was bitter war between shaivaits and vaishnavaits - A Hindu King, shiva worshipper bliinded the eyes of a devotee/student of Ramanuja a staunch vaishnavaite who had to run away to another kingdom.

even now believe me, Iyers(shaivaites) and Iyengars(vaishnavaites) do NOT marry each other in the traditional matrimonial groom/bride hunting.

Thats the way it is. Vaishnavaites do not pray to Ganpathi/Shiva/parvati. My friend just walked past the idols in a Hindu temple in NJ, I was shocked at this rigidity!

It is interesting to note that rigidity is first universalized by ascribing it to all religions, and then the Hindu religion is chosen to exemplify it. Not Iszlam or Xtianity.

[RamaY]

some rules/stories/do's and don'ts

combined with the concept of God(s) based on the belief system, one can say that is the definition of Religion

cannot deal with too many gods or goddesses, they can understand God with one name, that "He" does everything

Just because someone doesnt understand something, should we say that concept is wrong? For example, I never understood the concept of "finality of a Prophet"... And I can bet there are atleast few tens of million people who agree with me... Can we say islam is wrong where as Islam is right?

For whatever it is worth...

Allah, Jesus' Father (dont know his name & BTW does Jesus has a mother?), Rama, Krishna, Guru Nanak's god, Mahavir's god, Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, Ganesh, Parvathi, Lakshmi, Saraswathi..... these all are gods with small letter 'g'.



By the way... we all are way way way way way OUT OF THE TOPIC.

Malegao blasts are under investigation... UPA and its chamcha parties are trying to invent Hindu Terrorism to gain few votes... and we can wait till the courts give their verdict...

Until then, let us discuss the innovative ways of UPA and the psuedo-secular media...

[Arjun]

Dear munna,
Every religion is but a path - every human 'resonates' or is born in a religion, to help grow up and reach the next world. If I go on, it will be a sermon and I will be laughed out of the forum as a self styled sadhvi. Which I am not. That truth is for everybody to know, given in Vedanta crystal clear.

All I meant by saying one religion is NOT superior to others is that sometimes somethings make no sense to some people, they are better off with some rules/stories/do's and don'ts. that is easier for them to live with. They cannot deal with too many gods or goddesses, they can understand God with one name, that "He" does everything. So what ? If it helps them be good people, happy and peaceful people so be it. Thats what I meant.

Neelkamal, in saying that all paths lead to the same God, you are saying exactly what the Vedanta is saying. No God is superior to anybody else's god.

However, would you agree that the pluralism that you have displayed, which is a feature of Hinduism, is superior to exclusivism, i.e. saying that my God is better than yours.

What I am saying is that while Christianity and Islam is superior to Hinduism in some aspects (maybe the ability to organize etc), in the feature of pluralism wouldn't you agree that Hinduism is superior to the exclusvist religions?

Btw, I am in complete agreement with you on support for any kind of Hindu terrorism. That just cannot be tolerated.

[mayurav]

Malegao blasts are under investigation... UPA and its chamcha parties are trying to invent Hindu Terrorism to gain few votes... and we can wait till the courts give their verdict...

I was thinking about the major upheavals other established republics went through. Republic of China was established in 1912 and went through a major upheaval in the late 40s. US republic had to fight a civil war to sort out its internal dynamics 100 years after its establishment. France went through many republics alternating with monarchy.

The Indian republic seems to have gotten away so far without a drastic internal realignment. Will invention of this "Hindu terrorism" change that? Are drastic upheavals a common mechanism for a republic to reinvent itself? Are drastic upheavals inevitable when internal contradictions become too severe?

[Manu]

Congress Led UPA is doing what even the Pakis did not do at the height of ISI terror in India. If you recall, some Paki used to suggest that Indians plan bombs and kill their own (example: the Massacre of Sikhs during Clinton's Visit in Kashmir) - a view readily agreed by Clinton Himself (see preface to Albright's book). Now, we have the Union Govt. of India falsely implicating BJP and allies, not just in Malegaon, Samjhauta Express Blasts but all te blasts seen in the past few years. Will India (Mainstream Media, Police and Intelligence Force and Union Ministers) have any credibility left after this?

Link

Spit and scoot

ATS has no evidence

Is the Anti-Terrorism Squad of Maharashtra Police a rogue organisation whose personnel see themselves as accountable to none and above the law of the land? Or is its brazen targeting of Hindu religious leaders and shocking attempt to tar the Army's image part of a command performance? We must discount the first possibility because had the ATS been running amok, the State Government would have reined it in: The ATS is not free of Government control. Even if it were to be argued that the ATS has gone berserk and that there is no pattern to its deeds, the State Government would have to explain why it allowed matters to come to such a pass. What is more than likely is that the ATS, staffed by police officials who are more than eager to do the Government's bidding for reasons that need not be elaborated, has been instructed to try and cause maximum damage to Hindu solidarity by defaming their religious leaders and holding them up to ridicule. The Congress obviously hopes this will weaken the BJP politically, cheer jihadis and swing the Muslim vote in its favour. In a sense, it is back to the days of dirty tricks when slander and defamation were used by the Congress to weaken its opponents. The services of agencies of the state, most notably the Intelligence Bureau, were commissioned for this purpose. What makes the latest spit-and-scoot venture of the Congress particularly insidious is the fact that it could result in a severe blowback with communal overtones.

This is not to suggest that individuals involved in violent acts should go free. On the contrary, the law of the land should take its course and the guilty should be punished after a fair and transparent trial without short-circuiting the nation's criminal justice system which operates on the basis of irrefutable evidence. But what we have seen ever since the ATS was let loose to malign Hindu society is an elaborate charade with ATS officials planting stories in gullible sections of media, peddling fiction as fact. It is by now clear that the ATS has miserably failed to gather even a scrap of evidence about the involvement of the accused in the September Malegaon blast that will survive judicial scrutiny in a court of law. What the ATS has succeeded in achieving is spinning cockamamie yarns that are at once absurd and ridiculous. If the media has been left looking silly for front-paging these yarns, the ATS has come across as a sinister organisation. Amazingly, while the ATS is yet to come up with conclusive evidence in the Malegaon case, it has darkly hinted the involvement of the accused in other incidents, for instance the bombing of Samjhauta Express. But it forgot to do its homework before levelling this outrageous allegation. The IB, as this paper has reported, already has conclusive evidence of the SIMI's involvement in the bombing of Samjhauta Express. This only proves the point that the ATS has a political agenda and must be treated as no more than an extension of the ruling party's dirty tricks department. Tragically, its follies will dim the image of similar units in other States and reinforce the popular view that our criminal justice system is in a shambles.

Link

ATS: Anti-Tolerance Squad?

The arrest of Sadhvi Pragya and another Hindu seer from Lucknow has become an important poll issue in the Madhya Pradesh. The BJP has gone on offensive on the issue where as Congress is reluctant to even mention it its public meetings. When Congress general secretary Digvijay Singh compared Sangh Parivar with SIMI, he faced hostile reaction and people even threw eggs at him.

Away from politics, even most neutral voters are asking why the Centre is so hyperactive in case of Hindu outfits when it is not even ready to frame tough laws to deal with the Jehadi elements. People are asking why the Madhya Pradesh ATS team was not allowed see Sadhvi Pragya Thakur. The MP ATS team has gone to Maharashtra to question her regarding her alleged terror link in the state.

The DIG of ATS Pawan Shrivastava says he along with his team members recently went to Mumbai to interrogate Sadhvi Pragya, but they were refused permission to even see her. “There was no harm, if we could get some links of terrorism in the state after interrogation but we were refused even to see her,” he added saying that this suggested there was nothing concrete so far in the case.

A publication of such news in the local media has sown seeds of suspicion in the minds of people. This has helped BJP to propagate its theory of “grand conspiracy.” BJP leaders in Delhi may have been cautious in their reaction, but in the battle filed of MP, the issue is gathering heat. Chief Minister Shivraj Singh Chouhan has lambasted Congress for harassing Hindus in the name of terrorism and State BJP President Narendra Singh Tomar has been equally critical of the Congress alleged design.

“Until solid proof is obtained, I cannot consider her a terrorist. She was subjected to four narco-analyses. I ask the Congress has any suspected militant been subjected to four such tests earlier. A terrorist has only one religion and that is terrorism,” Tomar said.

On the other hand, State Congress Spokesman Arvind Malviya told that the BJP always attempted to create a divide between communities to get votes, but the people are now well aware of the facts and would not go along with its ideology. He said, “Our stand is clear that terrorism should not be seen by connecting with any religion and the investigating agency should be allowed to work without any pressure. No political party should get involved in it. Terrorism is against nation and anybody whether belonging to any religion or caste, should be dealt with sternly.”

But the voters seem not convinced by the Congress’ explanation. Surendra Verma, a lecturer says people are now aware of the facts that the Congress was not ready to hang Afzal Guru, despite the fact that he has been found guilty of committing the crime. On the other hand, they are unnecessarily implicating Hindu saints and seers in the name of terrorism.

Meena Sharma, a housewife, believes the issue would certainly affect the polling. “The polling would be against the Congress because it is attempting to malign image of Hindu community by conducting biased investigation in Malegaon bomb blast,” she added saying that whenever any Muslim terrorist was arrested he was connected with terrorist outfit, but when it comes to Sadhvi Pragya Thakur, it was connected to the whole community.

She also wondered why no terrorist was so far put through Narco test, while Sadhvi underwent this test four times so far. A businessman Amjad Khan says if Sadhvi or Hindu orgnisations were involved in bomb blasts, the ATS Mumbai should come out with the evidences to avoid the issue taking communal tinge. “For want of evidences, it is not justified to term anybody as terrorist,” he added.

Rajkumar Chettiar, a medical sales manager, however, said he would go by the image of the candidate and local issues. “I believe local issues play an important role in the elections,” he said, adding, “Though I feel people are still unable to digest theory of Sadhvi’s involvement in bomb blast.”

If anything, after the above Drama, the followers of RoP have the license to kill as indiscriminately as they like, it will all be blamed on BJP/RSS anyway.

Once again, the Police image will not recover easily after this, believe me. The Boy who cried wolf comes to mind. Each encounter will be viewed with suspicion, you can count on that, UPA has made sure of it.

For Some reason, other than IHT, no foreign Press walahs had commented on "Hindu Terrorists". Waiting for Election Season, perhaps?

[shiv]

May I point out that the digression of this thread has occurred over a complete non issue.

No matter who believes that his God is "superior" - it does not matter a whit. People can make a lump of horse dung their god and believe that to be "superior" - but Indian secularism rightly defines all religions as equal.

the real question is as follows:

After accepting that all religions are equal, who is willing to concede that his specific religion has specific issues that are an impediment to progress and good relations between people living in India.

That is the fundamental issue that cerated fake secularism in India.

There are two steps here:

1) Accept that all religions are equal
2) Start accepting that each religion has certain problems that serve as an impediment to the development of societies.

Pakistan did not even go past step 1. Pakistan just said "Balls. Islam is superior. Period"

India went past step 1, but is stuck without going past step 2. Hindus are willing to accept faults in Hindusim, but the same Hindus are shit scared of pointing out faults in Islam and give the follwing excuses to rationalize their fear of talking straight

a) "We are secular and we maust not talk about religions no?"
b) "Our Muslims brothers will feel hurt"

Even if Muslims are willing to accept that there are problems in Muslim society - "Secular hindus" often prevent that and virtually demand that Muslims remain recognizably Muslim. I don't think Muslims are demanding a Haj subsidy. Why the fck is the government continuing it and allowing Hindus to feel bad and curse Muslims over that silly subsidy? Haj subsidy is a medicine that Secular India is forcing down Muslim throats to prove how secular India is compared to Pakistan. How stupid can Indian governance get?

To compound this, a percentage of Muslims really are trouble makers, and a percentage of Hindu troublemakers push some Muslim moderates to take support from their troublemakers.

The net result is that nobody is wiling to bell the cat and talk about how religion causes f*ck ups in "secular india"

India's movement into the future demands that India go past the crucial step in which all people accept that each religion has certain problems that serve as an impediment to the development of societies.

[RamaY]

Just one more post to clarify on my thoughts.

Religions (and few cults) like Islam, Christianity profess on the idea of a God, such that all other religions or belief systems are faulty and evil. When you study Islam, all other Gods (for example Christianity's) are false. And When you study Christianity, all other Gods (for example Allah) are false. You can extend the same thought process to Shivaism (shivaites) and Vaishnavism (vaishnavaits) and so on.

Hinduism realized this contradiction and came up with the concept of God (singular) and gods (plural). That is why, when we talk about Rama, Shiva, Krishna, Allah, Chirst's Father we must talk at "god" level.

The problem is when someone talks in "god" terms while discussing Rama, Shiva, Krishna and talk in "God" terms while discussing Allah.

Hope this clarifies...

[Manu]

Link

Sadhvi, Purohit's narco test negative

Ramesh Vinayak
Chandigarh, November 15, 2008

The controversial Sadhvi Pragya Singh and Lt Col Purohit have tested negative in their narco test regarding their direct involvement in the Samjhuata Express blasts but have yielded important clues on their clandestine network, according to top sources in security agencies in Delhi.

The anti-terrorist squad ( ATS) of the Mumbai Police, which administered the narco test to the two accused in the Malegaon blasts, is now tracing a couple of followers of Sadhvi and an Indore-based Hindu Jagran Manch to crack the Samjhauta Express train bombing that had left 68 passengers dead last year.

"Both have tested negative on a set of questions on the Samjhauta blast in their narco test but that doesn't conclusively rule out the Indore angle in the case" says a senior security official in the loop of investigations being conducted by a DIG-rank office of Mumbai Police.

"The clandestine network of the Hindu right wing groups is turning out to be a much wider than what was though initially by investigator" he added. [Is this a Cop or a Politician?}

Security officials reckon that at least two absconding colleagues of Sadhvi and disgraced army officer are suspected to be the missing link in their terror network and could provide the vital clues on the Samjhauta Express blast case, according to sources.

The suitcases which were used to blow up three bogies of the Samjhauta Express were traced to Indore which has emerged as a hub of unlawful activities of Hindu militant groups linked to Sadhvi Pragya Singh and Lt Col Purohit who are currently under arrest.

Look at the nonsense. Test after Test is turning out to be negative. Yet they are calling the Army Officer "Disgraced" and are creating a whole fictional web of Hindu Militant "Hubs", where none exist. When is this mockery likely to end?

Why is Pragya Singh still under Arrest actually? All tests on her for Malegaon, Samjhauta, 9/11, WWII - all have come out negative?

[mayurav]

Indian secularism rightly defines all religions as equal.

Incorrect. Indian secular state allows the right to practice any religion. It treats religions unequally by allowing different personal laws for each of them. Statements with such elementary ignorance are a major self goal and one of the biggest problems affecting Hindus and must be avoided.

[Manu]

Even if by some miracle the Man is released after finding him not guilty, his reputation is already trashed.

Link

Malegaon probe: Purohit placed under disciplinary ban
Agencies

With the Maharashtra police arresting Lt Col Shrikant Purohit in the Malegaon blast case, the Army has placed him under a Discipline-Vigilance Ban that would ensure he gets no promotions or new postings and also relieved him of current responsibilities.

The ban, a routine order which came the day the Anti-Terror Squad (ATS) took him into custody for questioning, would be enforced till the time the probe is completed and a report, either indicting Purohit or exonerating him in the case, is submitted, Army sources said in New Delhi on Tuesday.

Till the time a competent court of law acquits him in the case, the ban would continue, but Purohit would be entitled to his emoluments and also retain official accommodation till then.

Purohit, a Military Intelligence officer, was last studying a couple of foreign languages in the Army Education Corps school at Pachmarhi in Madhya Pradesh, from where he was sent into ATS custody by the Army for questioning with regard to his alleged role in the September 29 Malegaon blasts that claimed about half-a-dozen Muslim lives.

Meanwhile, as announced by Defence Minister A K Antony recently, the Army also began an internal scrutiny of Purohit’s service to determine if the record matched with unsolved incidents that may come to light and if he misused his military postings to help the main accused in the Malegaon case, sources said.

The service record was being checked to see if any arms, ammunition or explosives went missing or were stolen at a unit when he was posted there, sources added.

Also, the Army was questioning his colleagues, who served alongside him at different postings as a Liaison Unit (LU) officer, including at Nashik.

In particular, the Army was interested in finding out when and where Purohit came in contact with one of the accused retired Major Ramesh Upadhyaya, in the case, the sources said.

The Army, in a departure from tradition, was also scrutinising Purohit's leave schedules during his service and has shared the leave records with the ATS, the sources added.

ATS probing Army link with Thane blast accused

The Anti Terrorism Squad (ATS) is probing the possible links of serving army officer Prasad Purohit, arrested in the Malegaon blast case, with right wing activists responsible for carrying out blasts at theatres in Navi Mumbai and Thane earlier this year.

The investigating agency is probing the link between Purohit, arrested in connection with the September 29 Malegaon blasts, and members of right wing groups of Sanathan Sanstha and Hindu Janjagruti Samiti who were responsible for carrying out blasts at three theatres.

Six persons have been chargesheeted by the ATS for their involvement in carrying out the blasts at theatres in Thane and Vashi to protest against the staging of a play which they alleged offended Hindu sentiments. The group had assembled crude bombs which where placed at both venues.

The CBI is also probing at the possibility of Purohit being involved in earlier cases like the 2006 Nanded blast. A Nashik magistrate's court yesterday permitted the transfer of one of the nine arrested in the Malegaon blast case, Rakesh Dhawade, to the Aurangabad ATS following evidence being found of his involvement in the Nanded and 2004 Jalna blast.

The ATS has also sought permission to interrogate a leader from Uttar Pradesh in connection with the Malegaon blast case and was been granted permission by the Nasik court.

The name of the leader was not disclosed and the permission of the court had been taken to ensure the co-operation of the government machinery there, ATS officials said.

[Manu]

This is what a Lok Sabha Committee thinks of the Tests (which are being adminstered by the ATS repeatedly.
Link

Truth serum not so truthful: House panel

For all the hype over narco tests and brain-mapping of suspects a reality check has come from none other than the committee of Lok Sabha MPs probing the cash-for-votes scandal. In the face of several MPs demanding that their colleagues named in the scandal along with other characters be put through narco-analysis, the Lok Sabha Committee, headed by Kishore Chandra Deo, has submitted two notes on the subject along with its draft report. Their key conclusion: it’s by no means reliable evidence.

These form part of the voluminous annexures of the report, yet to be circulated to members of the committee. The note on admissibility of narco-analysis as legal evidence states that while inhibitions of people undergoing the test are “generally reduced, people under the influence of what is called the truth serum are still able to lie and even tend to fantasize.”

The conclusion: “While expert studies and court opinions available internationally have granted that there may be some use in narco-analysis, the overwhelming evidence is that narco-analysis is by no means a reliable science.”

The legal position, according to the Committee, is that such tests “don’t have legal validity as confessions made by semi-conscious persons are not admissible in court. The court, may, however, grant limited admissibility after considering the circumstances under which the test was obtained.”

The narco-analysis test conducted by the CBI on Krishna, a suspect in the Arushi Talwar murder case, finds specific mention with a word of caution that “the legality of such an intrusive test remains under question, particularly in the absence of any specific provision under existing law to regulate it.”

For the latest scientific appraisal of brain electro-physiology tests, the Lok Sabha Committee obtained a copy of the peer-review committee set up by the Home Ministry’s Directorate of Forensic Science. The 40-page report, is also now one of the annexures of the cash-for-vote report.

After visiting laboratories where brain-mapping tests were conducted in Bangalore and Gandhinagar, the high-level scientific committee, too, came to the conclusion that, as yet, the science was not developed enough for the electrophysiology-based technique to be used as admissible evidence in court.

The peer-review Committee, headed by D Nagaraja, Director of NIMHANS, Bangalore has stated that their review “suggests sub-optimal scientific basis for them (brain-mapping tests) to be used as evidence in court of law. Hence, they cannot be used in the court of law.”

Speaking to The Indian Express, Nagaraja said that the report had been submitted to the Home Ministry in May and that he had been approached by the Lok Sabha Secretariat to give them a copy of his findings.

The scientists have pointed out that several scientific parameters need to be put in place for brain-fingerprinting, especially since in India several languages and dialects are spoken. There needed to be a uniformity in laboratory procedures and standardization of probe presentations.

The Committee has noted: “Experimental works need to be subjected to transparent review by an expert committee to evaluate the validity and reliability of the findings. Only after this, this technique might have the potential to be used as one of the investigative tools.”

[RamaY]

The Indian republic seems to have gotten away so far without a drastic internal realignment. Will invention of this "Hindu terrorism" change that? Are drastic upheavals a common mechanism for a republic to reinvent itself? Are drastic upheavals inevitable when internal contradictions become too severe?

Using the term is “Hindu Terrorism” so liberally by all the forum members is a very dangerous development. Let me explain:

By coining that term and accepting it as a reality, Indian public is conceding the other terrorism flavors viz., Islamic Terrorism, Christian Terrorism, Sikh Terrorism as legitimate means to fight real or perceived injustices. So far India has experienced all these flavors of terrorism causing immense loss of live (100s of thousands), wealth (JK alone costs us 5000+ Cr/Yr), and development (the Entire NE, Bengal, BIMARU states reel under this).

Adding any flavor of “Hindu Terroism” to this problem mix not only justifies those mis-guided hindu element's methods and actions but also will multiply the losses hundred fold. Especially because the PERCEIVED injustice done to all the other religions combined will be nothing compared to the REAL injustice done to Hinduism and Hindu masses in the name of secularism and minority appeasement for the past 60 years alone in independent India. Add the Islamic invasions and Christian persecution in the historical times, you have an explosive mix.

[satya]

On this thread , most of the posts have been in regard to 'cause' side of the incident but not much on the 'effects'. Perhaps its prudent we make a list of the effects so to see how things will shape up in near future :

1. Maharshtra ATS stand disgraced,at minimum carry heavily politicized investigation trademark thereby making sure investigations by ATS from other states will not be taken seriously . In future all ATS probes will either be Pro-Hindu or Anti-Hindu .

2. All future anti- terror operations will become more & more like ones being carried out in J&K ie no terrorist taken live as security agencies know they won't stand a chance to prosecute the terrorists in the court of law & public opinion .

3. Moderate Indian Muslims will see themselves becoming ever growing tiny minority & their voice increasingly becoming irrelevant for they will carry no weight among muslim masses who will be clearly swayed by ' told u so ' & '' we are your only hope'' message of radicals & opportunists taking the center stage .

4 . Successful Politicians in India are those who have their ears on the ground they stand specially for the non-congress parties . This new term 'hindu terrorism' has not been bought fully 'yet' by politicians for they are not sure if it can stand test among voters. If reports of Digivijay Singh being greeted with eggs on his comments regarding equal equal terrorism , its a good sign but unless & untill Congress loses in 3 out of 4 states in these state elections , hindu terrorism' becoming a political issue aiming to consolidate minority votebank without any susbtantial loss in support among hindu supporters ( can be cause of popular state level leadership YSR type or caste equations ) .

5. Some sort of News Media Regulation may happen in event of a BJP led Govt. at center if what i heard is true .

6. This is first co-ordinated effort in using the media to sway public opinion in a major way , successful or not coming two general elections ( 2009 & one after that ) will tell us .

Any change in direction happen only when the balance is tipped towards one end , is this the tipping point or start of a process towards that tipping point will determine how long it will take us before we as a nation can acknowledge the 'causes' ( ones being dealt in depth in this & other threads ) for such dreadful 'effects' .

JMHTs

[vsudhir]

Lt Col Purohit gave RDX for Samjhauta blast: ATS to court

Serving Army officer Lieutenant Colonel P S Purohit procured 60 kg of RDX from Jammu and Kashmir in the year 2006, a part of which is suspected to have been used in Samjhauta Express train explosion and Malegaon blasts, Maharashtra police told a court in Nashik on Saturday.

Seeking extension of police custody of Purohit, special prosecutor for Maharashtra ATS Ajay Misar told the court that a witness in Malegaon blast told ATS that Purohit had claimed he had 60 kgs of RDX in his possession which he had got from Jammu and Kashmir.

This gets murkier and murkier. Quite apparently, the ATS seems either completely confident in the claims it is making or is smug in the belief that even if they are wilfully wrong, their mistakes will have zero consequences in this lifetime in the courts of India.

Update:
Oh, how could I miss this?

Now, Lalu says Advani, Modi behind blasts

Truth can sometimes be stranger than fiction. But this is weird even by that standard,

[shiv]

Using the term is “Hindu Terrorism” so liberally by all the forum members is a very dangerous development. Let me explain:

By coining that term and accepting it as a reality, Indian public is conceding the other terrorism flavors viz., Islamic Terrorism, Christian Terrorism, Sikh Terrorism as legitimate means to fight real or perceived injustices.

I see it differently.

Terrorism by Hindus for a Hindu cause is going to be labelled "Hindu terrorism" anyway whether anyone likes it or not, and trying to avoid the label is pointless. However, when it is "OK" to apply the label Hindu terrorism - it will be equally legitimate to apply the label Islamic terrorism.

When you have an act of terrorism that is going to be blamed on Hindu groups which do you think is a better route to follow

1) Deny that it is Hindu terrorism and deny that Hindus have any reason to become terrorists
or
2) Accept that it is Hindu terrorism but deny that Hindus have any reason to become terrorists
or
3) Accept that Hindus could get involved with terrorism because they have genuine grievances that the government and politicians of India are unable or unwilling to acknowledge and address in their mad rush for money and vote banks.

The Indian government and politicians accept terrorism as a minor problem that can help them get votes one way or another. They do not take it seriously enough. Terrorism by Hindus groups - especially if it does involve army personnel should be awake up call to our polity that they are playing a dangerous game with the majority community in India.

Lalu's loose statement about terrorism made above (vsudhir's post) is a political statement but a stupidly dangerous one. He is labeling Advani a terrorist for electoral reasons and both he and Advani know that the charges cannot stick. But Lalu is devaluing the seriousness of terrorism by taking wild shots like this.

Politicians are using terrorism as a political game. That may be good for a little while until the people who are constantly in the "production line" for terrorism - arms suppliers, sundry criminals, explosives experts etc will suddenly realise that they have a survivable profession going in which they can break free from their masters. and conduct wild terrorism on their own while political leaders continue to think that a little terror here and there is OK.

This is exactly what has happened in Pakistan. This is what is happening with Naxalites in India. Naxalites are a troublesome fringe group. Islamic groups, with Pakistani support are more serious. But if Hindu groups really decide to create mayhem then the future can be really problematic. Really wealthy and arrogant criminally minded people will then be able to use the "experienced hit men" to do their own thing.

Long ago I had created a graphic to illustrate a similar point


My worry is that our politicians have already lost control. I am certain that many members of every political party has goonda politicians who use the same "hit man" executive arm of terror to achieve political ends. We on BRF tend to be only concerned about the "Islamic" part

I am virtually certain that the cases that remain "unsolved" are cases in which politicains hae used the same hit men or the same path/group of criminals. Why do you think Purohit said that he got a gang of Muslims to plant the Malegaon bombs. Such people are available.

Politicians already have the power to resist the removal of such criminals and they already have the police in their pockets. All that is needed would be for the hit men to make their services available to many others at cheaper rates as well as growing a "mafia don" type of hit man from within their own ranks (like Dawood Ibrahim)

This is one place where dharmic principle of Hinduism can be used to wipe this out - but it requires a great awareness to wake people up to the fact that many of their respected leaders and people they vote for are using these very hit men for their own work. That is why a Lalu can so casually accuse an Advani of being a terrorist himself. It is that commonplace.

[fanne]

So now how many think here that a ground is being prepared to ban BJP, please see Shri Lalu ji allegation.

[R_Kumar]

Interesting articles from Daily Pioneer-

Politics of 'Hindu terror'

Who’s the new Mogambo?

[R_Kumar]

So now how many think here that a ground is being prepared to ban BJP, please see Shri Lalu ji allegation.

If that happens, I am afraid we should prepared for blood bath. This is just my guess.

[ramana]

I think MKN is at the root of the whole mess. He found out as NSA about a covert operation run by IA Intelligence and is exposing it to the UPA's advantage. His silence is very pertrubing.

[RamaY]

I see your point Shiv-ji.

Now I understand why you and others were telling us not to react violently against the conversions, terrorism etc...

I think it is a wait and see game till end of general elections...

[enqyoob]

(Sigh!) While it is true that the title says both "Malegaon blasts" and "The limits of fake secularism", may I suggest that the "Malegaon blast" which has blossomed into the one-stop solution to all the Pakistani terrorist activities of the past 20 years, deserves focused attention.

At the same time, the other part of the title leads to the same old yada-yada-yada. Shiv, any suggestions? Break off and separate these into "Maharastra ATS allegations" and "Rant-Here-Against-Minorities"? Leave as it is, with the occasional informative post about the so-called terror investigations buried in a dump of the other kind of post?