Singhaji it is true that trawlers can suffice as mother ships, but not for months on end for sure without doing anything. Somalia had around 10 piracy incidents in 2006, 30 odd in 2007 and rising in 2008. This clearly indicates that the number of mother ships involved is a low number. The success of the piracy incidents is due to the range effected by these mother ships. But they are certainly limited. Yes indeed fishing trawlers may be hired for deep sea piracy by the pirates. And that is why i mention interception and interrogation on patrol beats by the Navy is required, like what the IN did. Also if the mother ship is trawler type size then best it is sunk. Do that a few times and the costs will go up for the pirates. This is in the event they are hiring trawlers from local fishermen.
In the case of them operating dedicated motherships for the purpose, thie number of actual incidents reflect that they will be operating a rather low number of such ships. In any case i am for the GOI to pursue them inside their territorial waters as a first than blast them in their land hideouts (which we may not have positive info about). If one has the ability to pursue the pirates right to the waters beside their towns then thats a big deal.
It's a combination of initiatives that will win this. It's not really something that cannot be done.
Indian Navy and International Anti-Piracy Ops
Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership
Philip jiPhilip wrote:Please,no Iraq misadventure for us intended! The idea is for air and naval strikes,not ground occupying forces,to sanitise the Somalian pirate havens. What the west is doing at the moment is endless debate about not trying to storm th Sirius because of danger to crew,etc.If Maggie Thatcher were in No.10 not Gordo Brown,she would've ordered the RN to go into action immediately! Let's see who will join us in a joint strike.If not,then we take action ourselves with the least goal of making the pirates forget ever about attacking an Indian MV.
Interesting thought in the last post about trying out the SUs with Buddy packs.Since we have a good relationship with Oman,the aircraft could land there after a strike,though the Bears are the best option,flying to the Somalian coast and back without refuelling.Another option.Launch an Agni-3+ missile!
IN may not have enough operational hours on their ships to continue such patrols endlessly.
The SUs with a war load can easily make the Somali coast and back using the IL-78 in flight tankers.
Buddy packs will not be able to hack it due to the range and payload considerations.
I don't thing that the Bears are rigged for conventional bombs. Much better to bung them out of AN-32s like the Air Force once did.
The Bears could easily be used to check out likely motherships and vector the man of war to destroy them if needed or better yet, take them out using their own aft turret. The Bears have tremendous range and loiter capability as you well know.
Last edited by chetak on 20 Nov 2008 19:49, edited 1 time in total.
Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership
chetak, there is no head of the monster in this case. bombing somali ports will achieve little.
to defeat the monster you need to cut-off its arms and legs, which is what IN is doing. the supply of motherships for the pirates won't be infinite, especially when the risks are outdoing the gains.
JMT.
to defeat the monster you need to cut-off its arms and legs, which is what IN is doing. the supply of motherships for the pirates won't be infinite, especially when the risks are outdoing the gains.
JMT.
Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership
Right you are.Rahul M wrote:chetak, there is no head of the monster in this case. bombing somali ports will achieve little.
to defeat the monster you need to cut-off its arms and legs, which is what IN is doing. the supply of motherships for the pirates won't be infinite, especially when the risks are outdoing the gains.
JMT.
It may not hurt to show the flag over some Somali ports and also wave the gun about a bit.
These guys may be banking on the fact that some sort of concerted effort by other countries may be
far away or not happen at all
Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership
the bears drop torpedoes with drogue chutes. as a one-off case some torpedo casings can be emptied out, stuff with
all explosives and keep just the chute...primed for impact detonation, would deliver a significant retarded bomb like
effect.
fly in and just drop it over the town waterfront.
all explosives and keep just the chute...primed for impact detonation, would deliver a significant retarded bomb like
effect.
fly in and just drop it over the town waterfront.
Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership
India could take lead in anti-piracy diplomacy
http://www.hindu.com/2008/11/20/stories ... 411200.htm
New Delhi: The dramatic sinking of a pirate ‘mother ship’ by the Indian Navy on the high seas some 300 nautical miles off the coast of Oman has underlined not just India’s ability to protect the security of its own — and international — shipping in the region but also its willingness to step up to the crease while other navies with greater capabilities might be watching from a safe distance.
The timing of INS Tabar’s fusillade could not have been better for the morale of the average seafarer. On November 15, a very-large crude carrier (VLCC) was hijacked by a Somalia-based gang in the most brazen act of piracy the world has seen in recent years. The Sirius Star is carrying two million barrels of Saudi crude and was bound for the U.S. when it was seized some 400 nautical miles south east of the Kenyan coast. Its captors have since dropped anchor off the Somali coast pending payment of a ransom that is likely to run into tens of millions of dollars given the value of the cargo and the VLCC’s replacement cost for its owners and insurers.
This week also saw the hijacking by Somali-based pirates of a Thai fishing vessel and an Iranian cargo ship. Given the volume of cargo traffic transiting the region and the traditionally mixed nationality of shipping crews, it is fair to say there is no country that can hope to remain untouched if the menace continues.
Notwithstanding Wednesday’s successful action, the increasing arc of piracy makes it unlikely that the Indian Navy or even the United States Navy could deal with the problem on its own. Apart from Indian and American vessels, Russian and NATO warships have started patrolling the Red Sea and Gulf of Aden region but Wednesday’s gun battle marked the first real hostile engagement with a pirate mother ship. And yet, the challenge posed by piracy needs much more than aggressive handling, necessary though the use of force in such situations might well be.
According to the International Maritime Bureau (IMB) — whose Piracy Reporting Centre in Kuala Lumpur is the only worldwide point-of-contact for distressed ships — 199 incidents of piracy were reported in the first nine months of 2008, with a noticeable spurt in the third quarter of the year compared to the previous two. These included 115 incidents where ships were boarded by pirates or robbers, and the hijacking of 31 vessels. The most vulnerable shipping regions were off the coast of Somalia, Nigeria and Indonesia, especially the Anambas/Natuna island area.
Though these figures are high by any standard, it is important to remember they represent a decline from the peaks recorded by the IMB earlier this decade. For example, there were 471 incidents in 2000 and 383 in 2002.
The one bright spot in the IMB’s data is the Straits of Malacca. Once dreaded by ship masters as the ‘piracy capital’ of the international sea lanes, the Straits have only witnessed two incidents this year, the same as for 2007.
One reason why the incidence of piracy in south-east Asia has come down is the unprecedented level of multilateral cooperation between littoral navies and wider regional powers. India, China, Japan and all ASEAN states are party to the Regional Cooperation Agreement on Combating Piracy and Armed Robbery against Ships in Asia (ReCAAP). The Singapore-based Information Sharing Centre (ISC) serves as the nodal point for the exchange of information under ReCAAP.
Piracy in and around the Malacca Straits has also declined over the past few years in tandem with the economic recovery of its littoral states from economic crisis. Many analysts saw a link between the spurt in piracy after 1997 and the collapse of the Indonesian and Philippines economies following the financial meltdown.
Though New Delhi has taken the lead twice before in encouraging political and naval cooperation along the Indian Ocean littoral, the recent incidents off the Somali coast highlight the urgent need for a ReCAAP-like effort for the region to the immediate west of India.
In 1997, Mauritius hosted the Indian Ocean Rim Association for Regional Cooperation (IOR-ARC) but the grouping failed to cohere or take off. In February this year, the Indian Navy hosted the Indian Ocean Navy Seminar (IONS) with the participation of 29 littoral navies, including Pakistan and Iran. One of its objectives was to strengthen the capability of all nation states of the Indian Ocean Region to “address present and anticipated challenges to maritime security and stability.”
The Ministry of External Affairs needs to begin urgent intra-departmental and inter-governmental consultation on the feasibility of replicating ReCAAP for the Red Sea-Gulf of Aden region. The ISC could be hosted in Aden, Muscat, Mumbai or Kochi. Rather than the anti-piracy campaign remaining confined to ad hoc, unilateral actions by navies with the ability and willingness to act, it is far better for a multilateral initiative to take root built around the instruments of information sharing and joint patrolling.
International Maritime Bureau lauds Indian Navy's action
http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/00 ... 201803.htm
Kuala Lumpur (PTI): The deft action by Indian Navy in destroying a 'mother ship' of Somali pirates came in for praise from an international maritime watchdog, which said such steps can be a "strong deterrent" to hijacking of ships in the African waters.
"If all warships do this, it will be a strong deterrent but if it's just a rare case, then it won't work" in stamping out the spiralling piracy in the Gulf of Aden, said Noel Choong, who heads the International Maritime Bureau's piracy reporting centre here.
INS Tabar sank a pirate "mother ship" in the Gulf of Aden and chased two attack boats on Tuesday.
"It is this type of action that is called for," Choong said.
Choong has said that ways must be found to stop the hijacking of vessels off Somalia and felt that strong "political will" was required to urgently stop the menace.
In their latest attack, armed Somali pirates have hijacked a Hong Kong-registered cargo vessel which had crew from India and some other countries. Pirates took the Delight, a cargo vessel carrying wheat bound for Iran, on their captivity on Tuesday.
Choong feared that as long as there was no "firm deterrent", such attacks would continue and expressed concern that the pirates had expanded the territory of attack in the African waters spreading to all directions. "They venture out armed with guns and grenades out in the sea about 400-500 nautical miles, which is really far," he noted.
http://www.hindu.com/2008/11/20/stories ... 411200.htm
New Delhi: The dramatic sinking of a pirate ‘mother ship’ by the Indian Navy on the high seas some 300 nautical miles off the coast of Oman has underlined not just India’s ability to protect the security of its own — and international — shipping in the region but also its willingness to step up to the crease while other navies with greater capabilities might be watching from a safe distance.
The timing of INS Tabar’s fusillade could not have been better for the morale of the average seafarer. On November 15, a very-large crude carrier (VLCC) was hijacked by a Somalia-based gang in the most brazen act of piracy the world has seen in recent years. The Sirius Star is carrying two million barrels of Saudi crude and was bound for the U.S. when it was seized some 400 nautical miles south east of the Kenyan coast. Its captors have since dropped anchor off the Somali coast pending payment of a ransom that is likely to run into tens of millions of dollars given the value of the cargo and the VLCC’s replacement cost for its owners and insurers.
This week also saw the hijacking by Somali-based pirates of a Thai fishing vessel and an Iranian cargo ship. Given the volume of cargo traffic transiting the region and the traditionally mixed nationality of shipping crews, it is fair to say there is no country that can hope to remain untouched if the menace continues.
Notwithstanding Wednesday’s successful action, the increasing arc of piracy makes it unlikely that the Indian Navy or even the United States Navy could deal with the problem on its own. Apart from Indian and American vessels, Russian and NATO warships have started patrolling the Red Sea and Gulf of Aden region but Wednesday’s gun battle marked the first real hostile engagement with a pirate mother ship. And yet, the challenge posed by piracy needs much more than aggressive handling, necessary though the use of force in such situations might well be.
According to the International Maritime Bureau (IMB) — whose Piracy Reporting Centre in Kuala Lumpur is the only worldwide point-of-contact for distressed ships — 199 incidents of piracy were reported in the first nine months of 2008, with a noticeable spurt in the third quarter of the year compared to the previous two. These included 115 incidents where ships were boarded by pirates or robbers, and the hijacking of 31 vessels. The most vulnerable shipping regions were off the coast of Somalia, Nigeria and Indonesia, especially the Anambas/Natuna island area.
Though these figures are high by any standard, it is important to remember they represent a decline from the peaks recorded by the IMB earlier this decade. For example, there were 471 incidents in 2000 and 383 in 2002.
The one bright spot in the IMB’s data is the Straits of Malacca. Once dreaded by ship masters as the ‘piracy capital’ of the international sea lanes, the Straits have only witnessed two incidents this year, the same as for 2007.
One reason why the incidence of piracy in south-east Asia has come down is the unprecedented level of multilateral cooperation between littoral navies and wider regional powers. India, China, Japan and all ASEAN states are party to the Regional Cooperation Agreement on Combating Piracy and Armed Robbery against Ships in Asia (ReCAAP). The Singapore-based Information Sharing Centre (ISC) serves as the nodal point for the exchange of information under ReCAAP.
Piracy in and around the Malacca Straits has also declined over the past few years in tandem with the economic recovery of its littoral states from economic crisis. Many analysts saw a link between the spurt in piracy after 1997 and the collapse of the Indonesian and Philippines economies following the financial meltdown.
Though New Delhi has taken the lead twice before in encouraging political and naval cooperation along the Indian Ocean littoral, the recent incidents off the Somali coast highlight the urgent need for a ReCAAP-like effort for the region to the immediate west of India.
In 1997, Mauritius hosted the Indian Ocean Rim Association for Regional Cooperation (IOR-ARC) but the grouping failed to cohere or take off. In February this year, the Indian Navy hosted the Indian Ocean Navy Seminar (IONS) with the participation of 29 littoral navies, including Pakistan and Iran. One of its objectives was to strengthen the capability of all nation states of the Indian Ocean Region to “address present and anticipated challenges to maritime security and stability.”
The Ministry of External Affairs needs to begin urgent intra-departmental and inter-governmental consultation on the feasibility of replicating ReCAAP for the Red Sea-Gulf of Aden region. The ISC could be hosted in Aden, Muscat, Mumbai or Kochi. Rather than the anti-piracy campaign remaining confined to ad hoc, unilateral actions by navies with the ability and willingness to act, it is far better for a multilateral initiative to take root built around the instruments of information sharing and joint patrolling.
International Maritime Bureau lauds Indian Navy's action
http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/00 ... 201803.htm
Kuala Lumpur (PTI): The deft action by Indian Navy in destroying a 'mother ship' of Somali pirates came in for praise from an international maritime watchdog, which said such steps can be a "strong deterrent" to hijacking of ships in the African waters.
"If all warships do this, it will be a strong deterrent but if it's just a rare case, then it won't work" in stamping out the spiralling piracy in the Gulf of Aden, said Noel Choong, who heads the International Maritime Bureau's piracy reporting centre here.
INS Tabar sank a pirate "mother ship" in the Gulf of Aden and chased two attack boats on Tuesday.
"It is this type of action that is called for," Choong said.
Choong has said that ways must be found to stop the hijacking of vessels off Somalia and felt that strong "political will" was required to urgently stop the menace.
In their latest attack, armed Somali pirates have hijacked a Hong Kong-registered cargo vessel which had crew from India and some other countries. Pirates took the Delight, a cargo vessel carrying wheat bound for Iran, on their captivity on Tuesday.
Choong feared that as long as there was no "firm deterrent", such attacks would continue and expressed concern that the pirates had expanded the territory of attack in the African waters spreading to all directions. "They venture out armed with guns and grenades out in the sea about 400-500 nautical miles, which is really far," he noted.
Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership
I would have thought that an aerial patrol by an armed long range maritime aircraft would be ideal to quickly catch up and blast a mother ship into daughter smithereens.harbans wrote:Singhaji it is true that trawlers can suffice as mother ships, but not for months on end for sure without doing anything. Somalia had around 10 piracy incidents in 2006, 30 odd in 2007 and rising in 2008. This clearly indicates that the number of mother ships involved is a low number. The success of the piracy incidents is due to the range effected by these mother ships. But they are certainly limited. Yes indeed fishing trawlers may be hired for deep sea piracy by the pirates. And that is why i mention interception and interrogation on patrol beats by the Navy is required, like what the IN did. Also if the mother ship is trawler type size then best it is sunk. Do that a few times and the costs will go up for the pirates. This is in the event they are hiring trawlers from local fishermen.
In the case of them operating dedicated motherships for the purpose, thie number of actual incidents reflect that they will be operating a rather low number of such ships. In any case i am for the GOI to pursue them inside their territorial waters as a first than blast them in their land hideouts (which we may not have positive info about). If one has the ability to pursue the pirates right to the waters beside their towns then thats a big deal.
It's a combination of initiatives that will win this. It's not really something that cannot be done.
Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership
And somehow that's a bad thing.Sid wrote:For other countries it will be like "its Somalia today, next time it can be us".
The old Hindu priest hollered at his grandchildren exercising in the courtyard: "Do not become too strong! Sit quietly or the Nawab will send his henchmen after you!!"
It would take a very incompetent captain to let that happen. I have faith in IN.Sid wrote: Heavens forbid, if we lose any Navy personal in such operation you will see a complete different mood in India.
And since when has this country become so cowardly that the death of a single crew brings out the white flags? Have we disbanded BSF too? Kargil never happened? You seem to carry some delusions about PN and IN.
I can see the attraction of naval patrolling. It gives the naval crews something interesting to do instead of the usual boring drills. Besides, who doesn't want to hunt pirates?! But at some point a babu in MoD will calculate the costs of all this patrolling and find out its cheaper in every way to bomb the pirate havens on land.
No one's talking about boots on ground, but you also cannot play this game of whack-a-mole indefinitely into future against a cheap supply of pirates.
The sooner we bomb the lesser the chance of cancer becoming malignant.
Last edited by Shivani on 20 Nov 2008 20:37, edited 1 time in total.
Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership
While aerial patrol helps in covering large areas in relatively short period, it will have hard time differentiating b/w a pirate mother ship and a fishing trawlers (unless pirates are very high on something strong and display their firepower). The area in question has very high traffic of fishing as well as Arab dhows. Aerial patrol can help in narrowing the suspects and calling in friendlies to investigate.shiv wrote:I would have thought that an aerial patrol by an armed long range maritime aircraft would be ideal to quickly catch up and blast a mother ship into daughter smithereens.
Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/indian-gets- ... 607-3.htmlNew Delhi: Indian Navy could send more warships to counter Somalian pirates in the Gulf of Aden even as Somalia has permitted India to enter its territorial waters as part of an effort to check piracy.
Besides India, navies of US and France have also been permitted hot pursuit in Somalian territorial waters which extends upto 12 nautical miles from the coastline.
India is also considering increasing number of warships on anti-piracy patrol in the Gulf of Aden from one to four after a request from the Ministry of Shipping.
A Delhi class destroyer has already sailed from Mumbai to the Gulf of Aden to augment anti-piracy patrol off Somalia raising the number of Indian warships on patrol from Salalah to Aden to two.
The 6,900-tonne Delhi class destroyers are the largest indigenously built warships till date and pack more fire power in them than frigates.
They carry on board two Sea King helicopters, along with a Cheetah or a Chetak, and stock 16 Uran missiles, 100mm AK 100 gun, four multi-barrel 30mm AK 630 gun.
With Marine Commandos on Destroyers, it would be a potent force when it patrols the Gulf of Aden to stop the pirates from attacking or hijacking merchant vessels.
The presence of the destroyer in the pirate-infested region of Arabian Sea will strengthen India's efforts to demonstrate its military power against the sea brigands, sources said.
The helicopters on board the destroyer are generally used for aerial reconnaissance by launching them from the ship's deck and the armed versions of the Chetak or a Cheetah can be used to scare the pirates away and also attack them when the need arises.
So INS Mysore an Indian built destroyer will be dispatched. This will make a big difference.
-
putnanja
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Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership
INS Mysore to now take on pirates
INS Mysore to now take on pirates
New Delhi, Agencies:
The Indian Navy will be sending guided-missile destroyer INS Mysore to the Gulf of Aden for patrolling the waterways hit by a spate of ship hijackings by Somali pirates, defence sources said on Thursday.
The move comes after a successful hostile action against Somali pirates in the area by the Indian Navy.
A Delhi class destroyer, INS Mysore will replace INS Tabar in the Gulf of Aden, a Navy official said on condition of anonymity. He said the destroyer will set sail from Mumbai soon.
The official said a proposal of the shipping ministry to send four more warships to strengthen operations against piracy in that region was still pending.
The navy’s stealth frigate INS Tabar on Tuesday night engaged the pirates and sank a “mother vessel” that had two speedboats in tow. INS Tabar, which so far has escorted 35 merchant vessels passing through the region, had also staved off pirate attacks on two merchant ships last week.
More fire power
The 6,900-tonne Delhi class destroyers are the largest indigenously built warships till date and pack more fire power in them than frigates.
INS Mysore carries on board two Sea King helicopters, along with a Cheetah or a Chetak, and stock 16 Uran missiles, 100mm AK 100 Gun, four multi-barrel 30mm AK 630 gun.
With marine commandos, INS Mysore is said to be a potent force to patrol the Gulf of Aden to stop the pirates from attacking or hijacking merchant vessels.
Meanwhile, Chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta on Thursday said the navy was also considering the option of an aerial recce of the region. “Aerial recce will be considered in the Gulf of Aden. We are considering augmenting our efforts to keep the Indian traffic in the region safe,” Mehta said.
Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership
For anti-piracy operations, I think WSI Dhruvs would work better than Sea Kings/Kamovs. The rockets and guns would be useful in hosing down assorted mother/baby ships, and the cabin can yet carry MARCOS.
Too bad they aren't naval qualified.
Too bad they aren't naval qualified.
Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership
I saw an estimate that maybe three mother ships were operating out of Puntland - before the IN sank one.harbans wrote:Singhaji it is true that trawlers can suffice as mother ships, but not for months on end for sure without doing anything. Somalia had around 10 piracy incidents in 2006, 30 odd in 2007 and rising in 2008. This clearly indicates that the number of mother ships involved is a low number. ...
IIRC, all the piracy incidents in 2006 were near the coast, & they didn't venture further afield until 2007. That was probably when the first mother ship was acquired.Keep sinking (or capturing) them, & the business will rapidly become unprofitable.
Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership
Smaller ships in large numbers would be more useful for policing duties but they would not have long endurance so far from the home port. I think this may be a good opportunity for INS Jalashwa(sp?) to go in there as mother ship with a dozen helos, a dozen speed boats, stores and 200 commondos. Make a real lasting difference in situation and announce to the world that India would protect Indian ocene from criminals and rogue states.
Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership
Totally for this. In addition I would like the Coast Guard to send a couple of Advanced OPVs as well, so that they can gain some operational experience in operating far from the country's shores. In the long run, anti-piracy is the Coast Guard's job and they cant restrict themselves to just the Indian EEZ. Correct me if I am wrong, but the Navy also would want to focus more on Military Exercises than anti-piracy operations. After the show of strength in the Gulf of Aden and the major ops are over, Coast Guard could cultivate this ability to operate far from the shores.Katare wrote:Smaller ships in large numbers would be more useful for policing duties but they would not have long endurance so far from the home port. I think this may be a good opportunity for INS Jalashwa(sp?) to go in there as mother ship with a dozen helos, a dozen speed boats, stores and 200 commondos. Make a real lasting difference in situation and announce to the world that India would protect Indian ocene from criminals and rogue states.
Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership
hi all,
My first post
. And what a wonderful topic to get started on. I believe this is power projection at it's best. I wonder how the chicoms would have reacted to this news. From the gulf of Aden to the Straits of Malacca, indeed it's now an Indian lake 
My first post
. And what a wonderful topic to get started on. I believe this is power projection at it's best. I wonder how the chicoms would have reacted to this news. From the gulf of Aden to the Straits of Malacca, indeed it's now an Indian lake -
Nayak
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Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership
What is the endurance of Tabar and Mysore at sea in terms of days before they need to re-fuel and stock up on food ?
Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership
they can be supplied at sea with stores and fuel, we have the ships for that.
WSJ
* NOVEMBER 21, 2008
Tankers Rerouted Away From Pirates
By ELIZABETH COWLEY
Container-shipping company A.P. Moller Maersk AS said it will divert some of its oil tankers around the Cape of Good Hope and transfer some cargo to faster ships amid the rise in piracy in the Gulf of Aden.
The Copenhagen-based company called on the international community to act on the growing piracy problem in the region as other shipping companies indicated they are considering a similar step.
Diverting ships around the southern tip of Africa -- rather than the faster route through the Gulf of Aden, Red Sea and Suez Canal into the Mediterranean -- will increase shipping fuel bills and will mean goods take weeks longer to reach their destinations.
Maersk Tankers Chief Executive Soren Skou said that two or three of its oil tankers will be diverted each week. "In addition, the cargoes carried on a continuous basis by three small container ships between ports in the Gulf of Aden area will be transferred to bigger, faster ships," he said.
Slower ships and vessels that sit closer to the waterline are most at risk from pirates.
The company's move comes after pirates over the weekend seized the Saudi-owned Sirius Star oil tanker, the largest ship yet taken and the attack farthest away from Somalia, where many of the pirates are based. The ship's owners are negotiating with the pirates.
Maersk's tanker diversions will increase journey times, raising fuel bills by around 20% to 25%, Mr. Skou said. Tankers going from the Middle East to Europe will take 14 days longer, and to the U.S. eight days longer than usual.
"Somali pirates are in the process of closing down perhaps one of the most important sea trade routes in the world," Mr. Skou said, calling on the international community to solve the growing problem. "This is not something the shipping industry can handle on its own. We need international solutions, enough navy assets, cooperation between fleets," he said.
Several navies have fleets in the region and a pirate vessel was sunk this week by an Indian warship. However, the pirates' capture of the Saudi tanker showed they are becoming bolder and moving further into the vast Indian Ocean, which is proving difficult to police. The commander of U.S. and allied naval forces off the coast of Somalia has urged merchant vessels to sail with armed guards on board and to travel only within lanes now patrolled by warships.
Other shipping companies are warning they may also have to reroute vessels. Tanker owner Frontline Ltd., based in Olso, Thursday said it may also avoid sending ships through the Gulf of Aden.
Maersk said it has safety and security measures in place for its vessels that do enter the Gulf of Aden, and will continue to monitor the situation.
WSJ
* NOVEMBER 21, 2008
Tankers Rerouted Away From Pirates
By ELIZABETH COWLEY
Container-shipping company A.P. Moller Maersk AS said it will divert some of its oil tankers around the Cape of Good Hope and transfer some cargo to faster ships amid the rise in piracy in the Gulf of Aden.
The Copenhagen-based company called on the international community to act on the growing piracy problem in the region as other shipping companies indicated they are considering a similar step.
Diverting ships around the southern tip of Africa -- rather than the faster route through the Gulf of Aden, Red Sea and Suez Canal into the Mediterranean -- will increase shipping fuel bills and will mean goods take weeks longer to reach their destinations.
Maersk Tankers Chief Executive Soren Skou said that two or three of its oil tankers will be diverted each week. "In addition, the cargoes carried on a continuous basis by three small container ships between ports in the Gulf of Aden area will be transferred to bigger, faster ships," he said.
Slower ships and vessels that sit closer to the waterline are most at risk from pirates.
The company's move comes after pirates over the weekend seized the Saudi-owned Sirius Star oil tanker, the largest ship yet taken and the attack farthest away from Somalia, where many of the pirates are based. The ship's owners are negotiating with the pirates.
Maersk's tanker diversions will increase journey times, raising fuel bills by around 20% to 25%, Mr. Skou said. Tankers going from the Middle East to Europe will take 14 days longer, and to the U.S. eight days longer than usual.
"Somali pirates are in the process of closing down perhaps one of the most important sea trade routes in the world," Mr. Skou said, calling on the international community to solve the growing problem. "This is not something the shipping industry can handle on its own. We need international solutions, enough navy assets, cooperation between fleets," he said.
Several navies have fleets in the region and a pirate vessel was sunk this week by an Indian warship. However, the pirates' capture of the Saudi tanker showed they are becoming bolder and moving further into the vast Indian Ocean, which is proving difficult to police. The commander of U.S. and allied naval forces off the coast of Somalia has urged merchant vessels to sail with armed guards on board and to travel only within lanes now patrolled by warships.
Other shipping companies are warning they may also have to reroute vessels. Tanker owner Frontline Ltd., based in Olso, Thursday said it may also avoid sending ships through the Gulf of Aden.
Maersk said it has safety and security measures in place for its vessels that do enter the Gulf of Aden, and will continue to monitor the situation.
Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership
This is extremely wasteful. Shame on all governments and navies that are allowing this to happen. UN is useless.WSJ wrote: Tankers Rerouted Away From Pirates
By ELIZABETH COWLEY
Container-shipping company A.P. Moller Maersk AS said it will divert some of its oil tankers around the Cape of Good Hope and transfer some cargo to faster ships amid the rise in piracy in the Gulf of Aden.
Post Edited to add:
What about Egypt? They have so much at stake with Suez, why are they not after Somalia and the pirates?
Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership
egypt ? they cant even guard their own coast properly let alone
deploy down south and start helping.
most of EU is weak and comatose. only the core UK, France, Italy,
Spain, germany and Netherland have the ships for this and all are facing funding constraints
US has no stomach to pick fresh fights
Australia has disbanded its navy for two months and sent them home
with a skeleton crew to keep the ships from being stolen off their
mooring
JMSDF has the ships but is awaiting new legislation
PLAN wont lift a finger as usual, not that they have any expertise
to contribute other than their usual thieving and spying.
Soko might be able to send a ffg or two.
Ru is big on talk and has sent what - a puny coastal corvette
which means some of this s*** has to be cleaned up by the usual suspect - India!
deploy down south and start helping.
most of EU is weak and comatose. only the core UK, France, Italy,
Spain, germany and Netherland have the ships for this and all are facing funding constraints
US has no stomach to pick fresh fights
Australia has disbanded its navy for two months and sent them home
with a skeleton crew to keep the ships from being stolen off their
mooring
JMSDF has the ships but is awaiting new legislation
PLAN wont lift a finger as usual, not that they have any expertise
to contribute other than their usual thieving and spying.
Soko might be able to send a ffg or two.
Ru is big on talk and has sent what - a puny coastal corvette
which means some of this s*** has to be cleaned up by the usual suspect - India!
-
Nayak
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Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership
There are talks of SOKO of sending some of their fearsome ships to share the patrolling.
After JSDF they are one of the most capable forces in terms of h/w. Unkil has been generous to SOKO and Japan.
IN needs to start knocking on the ships trawling around suspiciously and sink them if they match the desc of mother-ship.
After JSDF they are one of the most capable forces in terms of h/w. Unkil has been generous to SOKO and Japan.
IN needs to start knocking on the ships trawling around suspiciously and sink them if they match the desc of mother-ship.
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Nayak
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Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership
25 Million is the demand for releasing 'Sirius Star'. 
An interview with an expert
Treasure Ship
NEWSWEEK wrote:
NEWSWEEK's Barrett Sheridan spoke with Peter Lehr, a lecturer in terrorism studies at Scotland's University of St. Andrews and an expert on Indian Ocean piracy, about the fate of the Sirius Star and Somalia's darkened waters. Excerpts:
What will happen next to the Sirius Star?
The pirates will start negotiations with a demand for an outrageously high amount of money. If you take a look at the MV Faina [a hijacked Ukrainian ship carrying 33 Soviet-made tanks], the pirates originally demanded $35 million. That was at the end of September, and they're now down to $8 million, which is still quite a hefty amount for such a ship—the usual ransom amount is $2 million. For the Sirius Star I think they will try to get as much out of it as possible. However, the ship is quite dangerous for them. It's far too big. Navigational errors could happen, and you could have a disastrous oil spill damaging the whole coast of Somalia with the 2 million barrels aboard. I'm not really sure that the pirates were well advised to attack such a huge ship.
So they may be eager to have it taken off their hands.
Yes, could be. It was a very audacious raid—450 nautical miles off the coast of Kenya! That's amazing. So they will start by demanding, say, $50 million or something like that. Negotiations will take probably weeks, I think. The MV Faina has been in the hands of pirates since the end of September. That's now seven weeks. So it can be a protracted affair.
And how do these negotiations work? Who's doing the negotiating?
You first establish a link with the pirates, and then you have some go-betweens to ensure that the money will flow. It's a difficult procedure. They never meet in person. If the money is handed over, it's usually by an ex-military member, usually someone from Special Forces. Or it's paid into an offshore bank, although many banks don't like to touch this money anymore. It's now too high-profile, too hot. In recent cases, the money was paid in cash—U.S. dollars, usually.
The Sirius Star is a huge ship and can't be hidden. Where do they take the ship?
Most of the hijacked ships are at anchor off the port of Eyl in the Puntland region of Somalia, near the Horn of Africa. They are basically in the public eye—everybody can see the ships there, and they're usually shadowed by warships. The pirates know very well that there is nothing that the warships can do.
Why not?
A ship is a good place to hide crew members. Let's just imagine you do something Steven Seagal would do—you try to take the ship back. You send in Special Forces. You get onboard—that's the easy part. But you have no idea where the pirates are, how many pirates are onboard, and where they're holding the hostages. That means you simply can't be quick enough to guarantee that none of the hostages are killed.
What do the pirates do with their money?
The easy answer is they spend it. You see lots of brand-new pickup trucks and villas spreading all over the port of Eyl. There are brand-new hotels and restaurants catering to the pirates, a whole entertainment industry. There are lots of ways to spend your money—for example, they can also marry [an additional] new wife, which is allowed in Somalia.
So pirate loot has created whole new economies.
Yes. They also invest it in new hardware, like fiberglass boats, weapons and, of course, bribes to officials and militia warlords. It would be quite easy for warlords to take over one of the pirate ports—they have more manpower than the pirates have. And the Islamic movements could clamp down on piracy very hard if they liked. So I think lots of money is flowing into their coffers as well.
In some parts of Somalia, the pirates are treated like local heroes. Why?
Off the coast of Somalia, you will find a lot of high-seas trawlers from different nations conducting illegal fishing operations to the tune of $300 million per year. The vessels that the Somali [fishermen] have are no match for these bigger ships. Somali fishermen started to complain in the mid-1990s that their nets got destroyed, that their boats got rammed and capsized and all that stuff. This is one thing that the fishermen keep in mind when they're talking about pirates—they're fighting back. Many see them as young resistance fighters that are fighting against the Western system and milking it to the best of their capability. Also, the pirates earn quite a lot of money. They've created a boom along several coastal areas, which means they're earning quite a living, basically, for the whole community.
Piracy has picked up a lot this year. What's the impact on the global shipping industry?
If you take a look at the freight rates, you will see that international shipping is one of the victims of this global economic meltdown. Freight rates are falling through the floor, which means shipping is losing a lot of money. Many ships will be retired or put at anchor for a while. [In hijacking cases] you're talking about $2 million per ship—that is quite costly, especially for smaller shipping agencies. They will go bankrupt.
Why don't big tankers have security onboard?
Security guards cost money. That's one explanation. The second is, if you have cargo of a volatile nature, you don't want to have a fire fight onboard. You have, for example, chemical tankers, tankers with aviation fuel, and oil tankers like the Sirius Star. If you're the master of such a ship, you don't want to have people shooting it out onboard.
Some ship operators are considering going around the cape to avoid this territory.
That means roughly 15 days more at sea, which drives up the cost considerably. That's not likely to happen. At the moment the shipping industry is losing quite a lot of money. They simply cannot afford it.
What can be done then?
The best solution would be re-establishing law and order in Somalia, but that's wishful thinking at the moment. The second best option is re-establishing law and order in Somali waters and the Gulf of Aden. NATO and now the European Union have operations there. But the best solution would be a regional effort. In the Gulf of Aden it would be fairly straightforward and easy, because you have Saudi Arabia, which has a formidable Navy and lots of money to spend. It would be more difficult along the coast of East Africa because there you have states like Kenya and Tanzania, which don't have the resources for such operations. They would need Western expertise and maybe secondhand vessels for offshore patrols. But in the end, even though that would be costly, it would be easier and, for many of the coastal states, more acceptable than an ongoing NATO and European Union mission.
Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership
And how will that maritime long range aircraft going to know which one is the pirate mothership? Can the sophisticated sensors distinguish between an innocent fishing trawler and a pirate mothership?shiv wrote:I would have thought that an aerial patrol by an armed long range maritime aircraft would be ideal to quickly catch up and blast a mother ship into daughter smithereens.
The best plan to tackle piracy is what Indian Navy is executing right now. Make the pirates operations so expensive that they give up hijacking ships. What good will it do by blowing a villas or two on somali coasts. Does it gaurantees that it will kill the pirate leader? What about the civilian casualties? Moreover in my opinion, individual doesn't matter there. You kill one and another will rise as there is nothing to loose for them. I think whatever the case may be, India should respect Somalia's soverignity (?).
IN has the right to protect it's shipping and maritime intrests and it is doing that by patrolling the gulf of Aden but what gives Indian armed forces the right to attack Somalian territory?
Cheers...
Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership
This may very well be the reason why UN is being slow and useless in this matter. The UNSC can't pass a resolution because most members are in no position to help anyway. It would become an acute 'H & D' loss issue for the Big Five.Singha wrote:which means some of this s*** has to be cleaned up by the usual suspect - India!
We have to do this on our own. Without waiting for UN, NATO etc.
Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership
Business out of everything.
The Pentagon said Wednesday a military approach was not the answer to a surge of piracy off the Horn of Africa and suggested that shipping companies do more on their own to protect their vessels.
"You could have all the navies in the world having all their ships out there, you know, it's not going to ever solve this problem," said Geoff Morrell, the Pentagon press secretary.{blackwater $$$}
"It requires a holistic approach from the international community at sea, ashore, with governance, with economic development," he told reporters.{wah wah}
Morrell said at least 18 ships are currently being held for ransom by Somali pirates, along with 330 mariners taken hostage.
This year there have been 95 attempted ship seizures by pirates in the Gulf of Aden, 39 of them successful, he said.
Not only has the incidence of piracy increased, but pirates are going farther out in the high seas.
A US-bound Saudi supertanker carrying two million barrels of crude oil worth 100 million dollars was captured Sunday by pirates some 450 miles off the Kenyan coast.
"Trust me, this subject is being dealt with at the highest levels of this government," Morrell said. "It is a real concern. And we are constantly evaluating what the best approach is."
"I'm just trying to get you to think beyond the notion of, 'The answer is strictly kinetics. We've got to board more ships. We've got to fire on more pirates.'"{$$$}
The White House said President George W. Bush had been briefed about the seizure of the Saudi supertanker.
"Ensuring the safety and well being of the crew is of paramount importance in preventing or dealing with issues of piracy," said spokeswoman Dana Perino.
"And the goal would be to try to help get this ship to safety, secure the crew, and then work with our international partners to try to alleviate the piracy problem, full stop," she told reporters.
Perino said Washington was "working with other members of the Security Council right now" to work out how "to more effectively fight against piracy."
"It's a very complicated issue. There's a lot of international laws that factor into these efforts," she said.
Morrell urged that the UN Security Council extend a resolution that authorizes anti-piracy activities.
But he said commercial shipping companies also should stick to safer sea lanes away from shore and invest in protective measures, including technical devices and armed guards.{$$$}
"The shipping companies, also have an obligation to secure their ships to prevent incidents such that we've been seeing at alarming rates over the past several months," he said.{$$$}
The State Department convened a high level group of officials to examine the issue, but spokesman Sean McCormack called it "an international problem" that the United States was not going to solve alone.
{The U.S administration is a disaster for the world. It's always business for them}
Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership
Absolutely. We must take the initiative, otherwise the global trade during these testing times is going to create more problems.Shivani wrote:This may very well be the reason why UN is being slow and useless in this matter. The UNSC can't pass a resolution because most members are in no position to help anyway. It would become an acute 'H & D' loss issue for the Big Five.Singha wrote:which means some of this s*** has to be cleaned up by the usual suspect - India!
We have to do this on our own. Without waiting for UN, NATO etc.
India could take lead in anti-piracy diplomacy
http://www.hindu.com/2008/11/20/stories ... 411200.htm
Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership
The best options seems more boats. Especially if coast guard can operate from any base in the region, that will be a real good effort from the part of India. That solution can be part of a long term solution. It's numbers that is required right now. INS Mysore is on its way.nikhil_t wrote:Totally for this. In addition I would like the Coast Guard to send a couple of Advanced OPVs as well, so that they can gain some operational experience in operating far from the country's shores. In the long run, anti-piracy is the Coast Guard's job and they cant restrict themselves to just the Indian EEZ. Correct me if I am wrong, but the Navy also would want to focus more on Military Exercises than anti-piracy operations. After the show of strength in the Gulf of Aden and the major ops are over, Coast Guard could cultivate this ability to operate far from the shores.Katare wrote:Smaller ships in large numbers would be more useful for policing duties but they would not have long endurance so far from the home port. I think this may be a good opportunity for INS Jalashwa(sp?) to go in there as mother ship with a dozen helos, a dozen speed boats, stores and 200 commondos. Make a real lasting difference in situation and announce to the world that India would protect Indian ocene from criminals and rogue states.
Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership
.. for the US that is.
The reputation of the US is in the dirt in various places in the world - not least in Somalia. And the US is overstretched.
So while force was the real solution in Korea, Vietnam, Kosovo and Iraq, force is not a solution in Somaila.
Or Pakistan for that matter..
Pah!
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Nayak
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Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership
Coast Guard gives lessons in tackling pirates
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 738075.cms
Print Email Discuss Share Save Comment Text:
CHENNAI: Even as action peaked in the pirates' corridor in the Gulf of Aden, 21 Coast Guard officers from 10 countries have been quietly taking lessons in anti-piracy tactics from India.
When their class met on Thursday (the penultimate day of the five-day advanced maritime security training programme), it was with glee that Indian Coast Guard officers conducting the class, regaled their students with the finer points of the high drama surrounding INS Tabar's mid-sea operation when it sank a pirate ship on the night of November 18.
"Way back in November 1999, India created maritime history when its Coast Guard apprehended the pirated Japanese vessel, Alondra Rainbow, in the Arabian sea. That was the first instance of piracy in modern times and brought the issue into focus,'' pointed out Commandant S Paramesh, chief staff officer (operations), Coast Guard's East region and programme co-ordinator. Fourteen countries, including India, are members of the Singapore-based ReeCAP (regional centre for anti-piracy), an information sharing centre focussing on anti-piracy co-operation in Asia.
With the frequency of pirate attacks in the Gulf of Aden increasing, India, a key member of ReeCAP, -- the country's director-general, Coast Guard, holds the post of vice-chairman -- decided to include the subject of piracy in the annual training programme which began last year. The lessons for officer cadres from Russia, China, Indonesia, Singapore, Laos, Vietnam, Sri Lanka, Myanmar and Korea covered vast areas ranging from real-time situations to international maritime laws and inter-agency cooperation.
While the programme also covered terrorist activities, arms smuggling and human trafficking, the focus was on anti-piracy strategies like vessel identification and ship security assessment. The teachers also spiced up the classes with `useful information' about Somalian pirates and their hide-out in Eyl, until recently an impoverished village in the east coast of Somalia and now a pirates' den.
"We hear that business is booming in Eyl with pirates splurging their ransom money on fancy cars, satellite phones and laptops. We are told that several restaurants have opened up in the village, that there are big bungalows there now and that the pirates employ UK-based lawyers to conduct their negotiations with shipowners,'' said commandant A A Hebbar, joint director, operations, and one of Coast Guard officials conducting the classes. On Friday, the students would be taken out to sea for practical training in anti-piracy operation.
jaya.menon@timesgroup.com
Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership
USNs problem seems to be they are top heavy with all their old FFGs
either retired, nearing EOL or palmed off to needy allies. they have 50+
CG/DDG 9000-12000t aegis ships which are obviously overkill for this
mission and all their SSN/CVNs are also useless.
Ambhip ships they have are again the obese 40kt tarawa class, hardly
suitable to shadow small trawlers though a fleet of 10 embarked SH60
helis could survey a large area cued by P3 orion.
they are equipped and trained to fight a expensive, full scale war as usual.
for antipiracy they will have send a USCG flotilla from the east coast
and base them in egypt or djibouti maybe.
their "cheap" LCS is again a $750mil+ platinum coated baby firing diamond tipped poison darts with a wave penetrating hull ideal for
stealthy surveillance but not search and boarding work.
either retired, nearing EOL or palmed off to needy allies. they have 50+
CG/DDG 9000-12000t aegis ships which are obviously overkill for this
mission and all their SSN/CVNs are also useless.
Ambhip ships they have are again the obese 40kt tarawa class, hardly
suitable to shadow small trawlers though a fleet of 10 embarked SH60
helis could survey a large area cued by P3 orion.
they are equipped and trained to fight a expensive, full scale war as usual.
for antipiracy they will have send a USCG flotilla from the east coast
and base them in egypt or djibouti maybe.
their "cheap" LCS is again a $750mil+ platinum coated baby firing diamond tipped poison darts with a wave penetrating hull ideal for
stealthy surveillance but not search and boarding work.
Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership
lobbying by blackwater types mercenaries.. the neo-cons have taken idea of small govt. to new level.shiv wrote:.. for the US that is.
The reputation of the US is in the dirt in various places in the world - not least in Somalia. And the US is overstretched.
So while force was the real solution in Korea, Vietnam, Kosovo and Iraq, force is not a solution in Somaila.
Or Pakistan for that matter..
Pah!
Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership
Link
INS Mysore to now take on pirates
New Delhi, Agencies:
The Indian Navy will be sending guided-missile destroyer INS Mysore to the Gulf of Aden for patrolling the waterways hit by a spate of ship hijackings by Somali pirates, defence sources said on Thursday.
The move comes after a successful hostile action against Somali pirates in the area by the Indian Navy.
A Delhi class destroyer, INS Mysore will replace INS Tabar in the Gulf of Aden, a Navy official said on condition of anonymity. He said the destroyer will set sail from Mumbai soon.
The official said a proposal of the shipping ministry to send four more warships to strengthen operations against piracy in that region was still pending.
The navy’s stealth frigate INS Tabar on Tuesday night engaged the pirates and sank a “mother vessel” that had two speedboats in tow. INS Tabar, which so far has escorted 35 merchant vessels passing through the region, had also staved off pirate attacks on two merchant ships last week.
More fire power
The 6,900-tonne Delhi class destroyers are the largest indigenously built warships till date and pack more fire power in them than frigates.
INS Mysore carries on board two Sea King helicopters, along with a Cheetah or a Chetak, and stock 16 Uran missiles, 100mm AK 100 Gun, four multi-barrel 30mm AK 630 gun.
With marine commandos, INS Mysore is said to be a potent force to patrol the Gulf of Aden to stop the pirates from attacking or hijacking merchant vessels.
Meanwhile, Chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta on Thursday said the navy was also considering the option of an aerial recce of the region. “Aerial recce will be considered in the Gulf of Aden. We are considering augmenting our efforts to keep the Indian traffic in the region safe,” Mehta said.
Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership
All Ships including Merchant have sat-nav on board. It broadcasts its location on it, name, type (Civil/Military), tonnage, the number of crew, the type of cargo. Everything, except, for what is on the menu.
It is used avoid collisions. If found turned off a Captain will be held for negligence. Consequences are pretty bad in case of an incident or an oil spill.
So far, crew is kept unarmed to discourage stowaways and petty thieves that climb on board at ports, some search of food, once the ship is anchored.
It is pretty easy for the pirates to get these sat-navs, hand held, on speed boats (from a mother ship they can catch up easily). Unlike Warships, Merchant ships are not built for speed .
It is used avoid collisions. If found turned off a Captain will be held for negligence. Consequences are pretty bad in case of an incident or an oil spill.
So far, crew is kept unarmed to discourage stowaways and petty thieves that climb on board at ports, some search of food, once the ship is anchored.
It is pretty easy for the pirates to get these sat-navs, hand held, on speed boats (from a mother ship they can catch up easily). Unlike Warships, Merchant ships are not built for speed .
Re: INS Tabar nails pirate ship (sort of)
Classy. When I sometimes wonder why I don't read the forum as much as the rest of this site, it doesn't take long to find a reminder.vavinash wrote:Frankly if all 30 million are wiped out its no loss to humanity.
Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership
India is supposedly sending INS Mysore, a destroyer, to replace INS Tabar to combat piracy in the gulf of Aden. This seems to be a huge overkill to me. I am no naval expert. But I think probabbly a smaller naval vessel with some coast guard vessels with it would have been appropriate.
Re: INS Tabar destroys pirate mothership
Raicharan, INS Mysore has dual hangars and can carry seakings. Also being a destroyer, it has more endurance and more personnel and can sustain round the clock patrol and watch for longer. INS Mysore is not just being sent for her weaponry (forget a frigate, OPV or even INS Sukanya can take out the pirate mothership) but for her endurance.Raicharan wrote:India is supposedly sending INS Mysore, a destroyer, to replace INS Tabar to combat piracy in the gulf of Aden. This seems to be a huge overkill to me. I am no naval expert. But I think probabbly a smaller naval vessel with some coast guard vessels with it would have been appropriate.