Terror Attacks on Mumbai-II

[Luxtor]

I heard in U.S. media the following gems: On CNN this female reporter named Barbara Star said that the security in south Mumbai was relaxed just days before this latest terrorist attack so authorities were complicit in the attack. On MSNBC there is an analyst Colonel Klink or Col. Sanders, or whatever his name is, he's U.S. army retired, is very adamant that these terrorists have nothing to do with Pukistan but all of them are disaffected youth from Kashmir fighting Indian rule there. I also saw Deepak Chopra interview and like someone else said here before, I threw up in my mouth too. Where do these imbeciles materialize from? The news coverage here in the U.S. seems to gravitate slowly towards an innuendo that the Indians were incompetent in being able to pick up intelligence about this attack. Well, Hello, how soon they forget about their colossal intelligence f***k up about Sept. 11 2001 and the keystone cops response of their security forces during the 9/11 attacks.

[faraz]

They did nothing. Not a single person has been hang till now.

It takes balls to be Golda Meir, my friend. Her sister had expired when the Munich Massacre took place and still she ordered something to be done.

Reminds me of how our govt. handled LTTE after Rajiv Gandhi Assasination..... by doing nothing much.

[JTull]

Renewed firing and explosions at Taj at 3:34am IST

[anishns]

Can people please stop posting from sensationalistic Aaj Tak?
They are simply spreading false rumours....that channel should be banned for jumping the gun!
Not once but umpteen no. of times

Aaj Tak: Explosions in Nariman House. Terrorists hid explosives under the dead bodies of hostages.

[Raja]

There is a report of a British tourist held for 13 hours before being released. That is probably the source of all this rumors. I think it is highly UNLIKELY that any British Pakistani will be involved.

Why?

Because this is DEFINITELY carried on by ISI/Rogue elements. The fact that some random org named DECCAN MUJAHIDEEN took responsibility debunks the theory that this attacks were carried on to get India on Pakistan's throat. If that were the primary motive don't you think we would have someone from Pakistan claiming responsibility instead of smoke n mirrors? I also think that once all the investigation is done it will turn out that every single terrorist is a recruit from Indian Muslim community. There will be very little hard evidence to point finger at Pakistan because they had months to plan this thing. This is an attack from Pakistan to bring India down - everything else is bullshit. The only correct response is to make them pay in an appropriate manner so that in future they think twice but with the dorks we have at the helm it is not going to happen.

[Victor]

Firing on again, this time on ground floor. Trust the sides and back of the Taj are lighted up and covered to cut off escape routes. We heard that TV crews were barred from the back of the hotel so this is likely the case.

[shynee]

PM's terror stand comes back to haunt him

NEW DELHI: Of all his formulations, the one that has returned most often to haunt Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is the assertion that Pakistan too, like India, was a victim of terrorism. The macabre irony embedded in the peculiar hypenation plays itself out in a ghastly re-run with every terror strike.

The PM's remark, made before a meeting with Pakistan's former dictator Pervez Musharraf in September 2006, indicated a singular failure to appreciate the nature of the terror threat and Islamabad's role in ensuring India remains in a near-permanent state of fearful expectation. In a stroke, the wolf had been turned into a lamb.

Not only do wolves usually don't really change colours, what was remarkable about Singh's statement was it came barely two months after the 11/7 Mumbai train bombings where the government saw a Pakistani hand. Yet, a yo-yo response — just a month earlier he said the peace process with Pakistan was under threat — has marked the PM's approach to terror.

His tough-sounding words after the massive November 26 attack on Mumbai — that he would "take up" with neighbours the use of their territory for launching strikes against India and that "individuals and organisations" behind the outrage would be hunted down — sound like a tinny, worn out record. Even the PM's aides might find the cowboy act a little hard to swallow.

Politics can be an unforgiving line of work but the PM has chosen to ignore the perils of not learning from mistakes. Soon after serials blasts in Jaipur, Ahmedabad and Delhi shook the country, Singh told a governors conference that he was not opposed to tightening anti-terror laws.

The point really is whether the government is flexible to the point of bending before every storm. Soon, after Congress's political calculations ruled out special anti-terror laws, the PM developed an amnesia that afflicts politicians. Until the fidayeen struck Mumbai. "Existing laws will be tightened to ensure there are no loopholes for terrorists to escape," the PM intoned on Thursday. Disbelief wrestled with incredulity.

No one really believes any laws will be added or changed. The promise of a federal investigative agency has been part of a file in PMO for many months now.

After having bought into the political argument that anti-terror laws "target" minorities, Congress has found it difficult to retrace its steps. Yet, with each succeeding terrorist atrocity, the pressure to be seen to be doing something has increased. But the PM has sought to make concessions that Congress is not prepared to underwrite.

Apart from the India-US nuclear deal, the PM has tended to see peace with Pakistan as part of his legacy. But even as he built useful CBMs with Musharraf, the bid to de-militarise Siachen shocked the armed forces which felt the plan was ill considered. Today, the "mountain of peace" line seems more tacky than it ever did.

[kobe]

There is a report of a British tourist held for 13 hours before being released. That is probably the source of all this rumors. I think it is highly UNLIKELY that any British Pakistani will be involved.....

british pakistani = madrassa trained real pakistani
(it does not matter where they were born or which passport they carry)

pakistani does not mean someone born and raised in pakistan

pakistani means an islamic hate monger who hates others because he is a failure
who is so hateful of his misery that only option for him is to kill innocent women
men and children with machine guns

[enqyoob]

On CNN this female reporter named Barbara Starr

IIRC , this used to be a NY times Delhi infestation. I remember writing to the NYT editor circa 2002 that she made Village Idiots look like Einsteins. Was quiet 4 a while after that - maybe got fired eventually and came to CNN looking for a place really full of village idiots. The Col. Klink must be one of those who trained the Pakistani terrorists in the 1980s-90s so that they could attack free democracies. Negative-IQ "American hero" - like Kissmya**inger.

[vsudhir]

Canadian man ignored knock at Oberoi in Mumbai: CNN

"You know, I was the luckiest man on Earth before. Now I'm the double luckiest man on Earth," he said adding that he feels "very, very bad for the people in India."

"If I could give one message to your audience, they should go to their travel agent and buy a ticket to Mumbai," he urged.

"Please go. Please go. They need your support," he said.

If our DDM were genuinely patriotic, and sincerely wanted the best for yindia, then statements such as the above were exactly what should've been highlighted and repeat broad-casted 100 times. Int'l media which in the first 48 hrs used DDM inputs heavily also would've picked up the theme.

DDM should've done some basic research on past SF rescues. They would have found that an SF op for hostage rescue on this scale - at multiple simul locations - is unprecedented. DDM should've hinted and later made explicit the fact that our security teams did an awe-inspiring job under heavy odds and with relatively low casualities compared to what this could have easily become.

DDM should've invited sane, knowledgeble ex-IB, IA and IPS types into their studio panels for proper perspective and appreciation of what we're facing here.

I could go on but what's the point.

[Sid]

[Edited] i got that post wrong.

[kobe]

be careful guys, it is true that MMS is a lame passive puppet of SG
but based on that do not conclude that

- there are no strong leaders in congress (indira gandhi was strong)
- there are no weak leader in BJP (don't remind me of the airline hijack PLEASE)

the rot is in ENTIRE corrupt indian political machine,
i am sure there are strong leaders in many political parties
but people need to identify them and vote for them

[Raja]

Kobe if you hypothesize that

a) This attacks were carried on by Pakistan or elements in Pakistan that hate India (Not AQ whose primary goal is to screw USA and destabilize everyone else)
b) This attacks were planned well in advance

then it is also safe to assume that,
c) Whoever that is behind this attacks wants India to not react in a manner that might hurt Pakistan
d) They will achieve this by creating maximum confusion regarding the source of this attack (Hindu terrorists, Al Quaeda, Deccan Mujahideen, Indian Muslims only, etc)

if a, b, c, and d are true then I would be very surprised if they had involved anyone from U.K. because unlike some Pakistani it is going to be much harder to cover up the involvement of a British. Furthermore, once the link to the British citizen is found (if it exists) it will not be that difficult to get credible information tying it back to Pakistan. That is an absolute no-no if a, b, c and d are true. The best strategy then is to recruit some IM/Bangladeshi or old infiltrated Pakistanis that cannot be credibly linked back to Pakistan.

So, I highly doubt that we will find any strong evidence like a British Fundoo with links to Pakistan involved. Lets wait and watch but I am willing to bet against it.

[sunilUpa]

Hussain Haqqani is babbling on CNN with Wolf Blitzer.

Haqqani is saying that elections in India may cause some people to blame Pakistan to gain electoral advantage!

[shaardula]

@ CNN. haqqani, same old snake oil.

we are also victims. equal equal.

so why are you sending ISI head?
transparency.

who is responsible for attacks?
world changed after 9/11. non state actors al keeda.
india, pakistan and world should work together. to find who is responsible. and work together to eliminate terrorism from kabul to kolkatta.

[enqyoob]

Raja:

Please check on the reports around the July 7 (I can't remember which year) attacks in London, United Queendom. The perpetrators were mostly "British Pakistanis". Most were born in UQ, but trained in Pakistan (madarssas, like kobe says).

In fact, in the days after the 7/7 attacks, there were several posts on the Unmentionable Forum (hint: starts with "Pak De.." ) enquiring after the existence of several of their postors. IOW, they were not concerned, like we are here about some of our postors and their relatives, about them being caught as victims of the violence. They were pretty sure that these guys had perished when their BakPaks blew up - or that they had gone silent because the British police had escorted them from their homes to "interviewing".

So there is nothing contradictory about the "attack being totally Pakistani" and "british pakis being among the perpetrators". In fact it rings totally true.

If you want to have some fun, pls go on the Unmentionable Forum and post enquiries about "Saeed from Leeds" and "Imran from Brighton" who had said they were going on a secret adventure in November, and wonder why a couple of suited gents from Scotland Yard came by asking their whereabouts yesterday. See what happens.

What I have not figured out is the report about "blond-haired" terrorists, from eye-witnesses in the restaurant etc. Did the Pakis wear blonde wigs as they wanted to impress the houris? Or were they just peachy-bottomed, white-carnation-in-the-ear "girls" for the other Pakis?

P.S. Raja:

If I might be so outspoken, may I also suggest that you read up on some of OUR sources on this "Al Qaida" thing instead of parroting what some of us have realized, is stupid-as-cabbages Anglo-American propaganda to cover up their own complicity in generating the Pakistani Global Terror Enterprise? Your understanding of "Al Qaida" sounds like you have been allowing the cathode rays from CNN do a lot of damage to yourself, brother.

[kobe]

Kobe if you hypothesize that

a) This attacks were carried on by Pakistan or elements in........
b) This attacks were planned well in advance......
c) Whoever that is behind this .......
d) They will achieve this by creating maximum ........

if a, b, c, and d are true then ......

time for IF, THEN logic will work in your C++ programming,
right now its the time for brahmos logic my friend

[Raja]

I know that narayanan. But I am staying that the shadow government in Pakistan is behind these attacks and they will try their best to cover up their tracks. As such, they would not use people that can be traced back to Pakistan easily. These attacks were planned in advance and they have probably considered a lot of things carefully. Most likely everyone involved will be from IM community (atleast seemingly).

Kobe: I already said that the only correct response (if what I said is true) is to make Pakistan pay three times the price. I don't really know what is the best way to do that. If Brahmos then fire away.

[SaiK]

I support those who blame our loopholes and our setup. We better correct that today or never. See the never ending terror happening again and again.. BTW, did LIC announce any terror insurance yet? I am sorry folks.. wake up. Lets get our asses up against the wrong doings.. by our setup. Lets invest in better security model, be it a better political , military, infrastructure or cultural setup.

[enqyoob]

Programming logic works if properly understood:

If (a), (b) and (c) are true, AND

Pakistan Armed Forces == Al Qaida

Then we are all in agreement. And all are true. It's that simple.

These attacks were planned in advance and they have probably considered a lot of things carefully. Most likely everyone involved will be from IM community (atleast seemingly).

True, but in this case
(a) at least one of the first captured terrorists has already squealed that they are from Pakistan.
(b) the Indian DDM papparazzi allowed the terrorists to broadcast their Message to Unbelievers live on national TV, and every Mumbaikar who heard that knew at once where those accents came from - Pakistan.

The 7-7 terrorist events were also planned and trained from Pakistan, yet the identity of the perpetrators and their links to Pakistan came out very quickly.

There is one other thing about Pakistan that one must understand - they can be depended upon to screw themselves. In the immortal wisdom of our shiv:

Jo Lahore mein gandoo woh Bilayat aur Mumbai mein bhi gandoo

In this case, consider that the "shadow government" (i.e., the military establishment) probably WANTS this traced back to Pakistan.

IOW, they want the present govt. discredited, so that they can conduct a coup again and "save the nation from corruption". You bet the blithering idiots in Dupli City and London will be all having orgasms imagining a "suave secular whisky-swilling Moderate Muslim General" like Aziz Khan taking over Pakistan, as another One-Bribe-Does-It-All Arms Selling Point.

[SaiK]

if (Pakistan Armed Forces == Al Quaida ) then
it is easy to work it out
else if (Pakistan Armed Forces -> & Al Quida ) then [& reference pointer]
it is difficult for the current political setup.

We need to change.

[rsingh]

Strange.............in 21st century all countries overreacting to emphasize how much they care about their citizens. US,UK even France helping countrymen. French president did not bothered to cancel holidays when 20000 old people died in heat wave recently. Most of the homeless people in US and UK live worse then people in developing countries. No one has courage to say that " It is bad that our citizens are hurt,but Indians have suffered more and therefore it is a common tragedy". World leaders are behaving like selfish kids who is happy when rival gets punishment. France sending plane to rescue Europeans...........I fell off the couch. Have someone seen backstreets of Paris...........with African French citizens washing cloths in street.
This is all showoff.

[JTull]

Can we leave this programming stuff? Let's stick to the situation assessment. thx

[Kamal_raj]

Now that most of the civilians are not in the Taj hotel can the special forces use a gas to make the terrorist unconcious and capture them alive.

[sampat]

There still might be people inside taj. (according to Times now)
Terrorists are cornered though..Firing continuing.

Only Times now reporting is news like others give me headache.

[asprinzl]

According to my sources (mostly from Israel), the Indian Home Ministry rushed in the commandos and other special forces without proper briefing on the hotel lay-out and without night vision devices for operation in the dark. If not for the BPJs, countless commandos would have died unnecessarily. Also, if the bandits had booby trapped certain spots, the forces would have suffered even more casualties. The haphazard manner with which the political idiots handled these highly trained forces is a disgrace. Disgrace indeed. What is this? Anything and everything is expendable to protect the H&D of the politicos? You guys better kick out these incompetents from power soon and have an inquiry with prosecuting powers. The world don't need more Chamberlains.
Avram

[SaiK]

Operation Black Tornado over at Nariman House, two terrorists killed, five hostages found dead | Firing on at Taj hotel | Five bodies brought out of Taj hotel | Operation over at Oberoi Trident, 148 hostages released | AK-47 recovered from the 8th floor of Oberoi Trident hotel, hand grenades used by terrorists of Chinese make | At least 13 foreigners killed, 22 injured in attacks: MHA | ISI representative, not chief to visit India for talks on Mumbai attacks

ToI flash

[sampat]

IBN Idiots still giving position of commandoes and simultaneously saying we will not reveal anything for the security reasons.
Just like warez sites sharing programs with text like only for trial or educational purposes.

IDIOTS

[rsingh]

With due respect to great Israeli nation and Israeli friends...........I have to mention that they have habit of overstating their capabilities. We can go on and on.......ie we could have used robots or telepathy to disarm pigs..............all bullshit. Our commandos did best under given circumstances with minimum causalities.

[anishns]

Hopefully after this a country which spends close to $20 billion on defense eqpt. can buy some decent BPJ's, Night vision eqpt., headgear for their most elite security force.

Makes my blood boil when I see pictures of the eqpt. that are assigned to forces responsible for the security of the politicians.

According to my sources (mostly from Israel), the Indian Home Ministry rushed in the commandos and other special forces without proper briefing on the hotel lay-out and without night vision devices for operation in the dark. If not for the BPJs, countless commandos would have died unnecessarily. Also, if the bandits had booby trapped certain spots, the forces would have suffered even more casualties. The haphazard manner with which the political idiots handled these highly trained forces is a disgrace. Disgrace indeed. What is this? Anything and everything is expendable to protect the H&D of the politicos? You guys better kick out these incompetents from power soon and have an inquiry with prosecuting powers. The world don't need more Chamberlains.
Avram

[sunilUpa]

According to my sources (mostly from Israel), the Indian Home Ministry rushed in the commandos and other special forces without proper briefing on the hotel lay-out and without night vision devices for operation in the dark. If not for the BPJs, countless commandos would have died unnecessarily. Also, if the bandits had booby trapped certain spots, the forces would have suffered even more casualties. The haphazard manner with which the political idiots handled these highly trained forces is a disgrace. Disgrace indeed. What is this? Anything and everything is expendable to protect the H&D of the politicos? You guys better kick out these incompetents from power soon and have an inquiry with prosecuting powers. The world don't need more Chamberlains.
Avram

You are just just repeating the statement of former head of Shin Bet. That is not the whole truth. If not for Marcos engaging the terrorists during initial period, the death tole would have been much higher.

Please stop this, you or 'defense sources in Israel' do not have all the facts, neither do there is a precedence to a simultaneous hostage rescue operation involving one 800 room Hotel, another one involving 400+ rooms and third one involving a 4 story apartment in an congested alley, while all the action being broadcast live to whole world.

Analysis of operation will come later. This is not the time.

[SwamyG]

For all the analysis on the Western Media, none really want to venture to 1947. None want to go those days when Pakistan moved into Kashmir. They keep repeating that the countries went to war 3 times, but never give the background.

But Pakistan has never been in the news so much. The US media is taking Obama's position - Bad Pakistan.

[Shreeman]

Programming logic works if properly understood:

If (a), (b) and (c) are true, AND

Pakistan Armed Forces == Al Qaida

Then we are all in agreement. And all are true. It's that simple.

Of all the people, N^3. There is no a,b,c. Pakistan (all of it is armed) == Al Qaida. Your old moto:

Give peace a chance, ...

This is the only thing that needs to be repeated. There is no if, but, equal, equal. Now all together, repeat

Give peace a chance, ....

Give what a chance?

peace.

Do what?

...

[Sanjay]

Asprinzl, I would advise you to take even your sources with some skepticism. Do not interpret that as criticism. Just urging caution.

The NSG units are equipped with both thermal and II NVG and weapons sights. That we haven't seen them does not mean they were not used.

That's a warning for all of us: because we didn't see it, doesn't mean something wasn't used.

Regarding the deployment by the MHA, again I would caution against any rush to conclusions. We do know that the briefing was inadequate. What we probably do know is that delay was unlikely to be produce a better result.

Second guessing by experts sitting thousands of miles away is unhelpful in the extreme.

As an aside, witness the stellar performance by the FBI at Waco and Ruby Ridge, the Russians at Beslan (and even the Moscow theatre) and Britain after 7/11 when the only person they shot was a Brazilian !

Wasn't Shin Bet responsible for the total screw-up regarding the protection and assassination of Yitzhak Rabin ?

I do not question or doubt the core competence of any of these agencies. I simply drawn attention to the fact that each state has its own history of complete and utter failure.

[SriKumar]

I just saw CNN and Foxnews and it just surprises me no end, to put it mildly. I literally have a headache after hearing the guest experts they had on. CNN's Wolf BLitzer had Haussain Haqqani (Pak. Ambassador to US) to give his opinion on the Mumbai events. Haqqani was obviously happy to oblige: he said that it was 'non-state actors' and 'Al Qaeda' at work. He also pointed to Zardari's NFU offer as proof that PAkistan wants good relations with India. Very convenient, I must say. Foxnews had Mansoor Ejaz, their 'Foreign Affairs Analyst'. About this man, the less said, the better. Massive spin all around.

Why is CNN shy of putting Indians on TV to ask these questions? When you ask Paksitanis whether their country is involed in terrorism, what do you expect they are going to say?

[sunilUpa]

Why on earth NSG will wear Nightvision 'outside'? Give me a break here. My people are dying here and experts pass comments on performance of my forces. I do not need such insensitive friends.

[enqyoob]

Shreemanji:
Good to see you posting.
Of course, as he says, the Kinder-and-Gentler PC Version of the one-stop Problem Formulation and Solution is

Give Peace a Chance. Destroy the Pakistan Army

[SwamyG]

New India in the Crosshairs
Blog from National Review.

Young Muslims now score more poorly on literacy tests than the Hindu “untouchables.”

[Rahul Shukla]

I do not believe that PM Manmohan Singh has what it takes to retaliate against Pakistan. He's a nice and peace-loving man, but way too nice and peace-loving to be an effective PM.

Indian Navy should have sank a few Pakistani trawlers hours after this attack and at least 1 Pakistani coast-guard boat. A few strikes should have been launched on Karachi harbor under the pretext of hot-pursuit of the mother-ship and suspects. Who gives a rats gluteus-maximus if the excuse used was only 400% true. Not to mention, ISI HQ is within Brahmos range.

I am very disappointed by our PM's reaction to this crisis.

[Shreeman]

Shreemanji:
Good to see you posting.
Of course, as he says, the Kinder-and-Gentler PC Version of the one-stop Problem Formulation and Solution is

You are too kind. But I nitpick,

Give Peace a Chance. Destroy the Pakistan Army

I believe the universal truth, as I was taught, omits the "the" and "Army".