Terror Attacks on Mumbai-II

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 29 Nov 2008 05:36

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 770611.cms

Why would they leave behind a satellite phone, though?

cbelwal · Post by **cbelwal** » 29 Nov 2008 05:36

This substantiates the fact this 'attack' was more of an invasion. The training, motivation and the way they entered is typical standard op. procedure for enemy SF penetration behind enemy lines. The only difference being that the target was not a military facility but unarmed civilians and so far the news suggests that the raid was conducted by Pakistan 'civilians' and not the Pakistani military. Though it wouldnt be suprising if serving Pakistan army SSG or Naval SSG were part of the gang. The investigations will throw some light on that.

JTull wrote:Arrested terrorist says gang hoped to get away

The gang of terrorists who wreaked mayhem in Mumbai for three days were made to believe by their Lashkar bosses that they were not being
sent on a suicide mission and that they would be coming back alive.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 29 Nov 2008 05:37

AAre why on earth these TV guys are broadcasting live action from TAj, showing all NSG movement outside the hotel?

R_Kumar · Post by **R_Kumar** » 29 Nov 2008 05:41

sunilUpa wrote:Ramana Ji, like most of us BigB is also watching Arnab...and admiring his work.

bigb

Wow he reminded me AB of 1980s. I think we need more such response from influential people.
At the same time he shouldn't keep Amar Singh company.

trivedi · Post by **trivedi** » 29 Nov 2008 05:42

joshvajohn wrote:It is time for a strategic plan for India to work closely with US and others who are willing to cooperate and eliminate terrorising people.

I want to point out an important place where we are lacking as a nation - in doing our part to shape the public opinion of Pakistan in the US in general and in their foreign affairs community in particular. The Pakis may be bad at a bunch of things like, say, running a country, but one thing they have done well is shape this story of Pakistan - the pro-western islamic country. The reality, as we all know, is much different. Even if Pakistan were to ever get a pro-western peace loving government (and pigs were to fly), they have neither the organizational ability nor any standing in places like NWFP or criminal enterprises like Lashkar - each of whom runs, in effect, a parallel government.

This is reality. Unfortunately, the way public opinion in the US is shaped using sound bites, one needs to sell even reality. So we should.

This is Pakistan's weak moment. The US is pissed off at them anyway for helping Afghanistan go from bad to worse when they are stuck in Iraq. Distasteful as it is, we need people out there in the US media on CNN and yes even Fox to shape public opinion. More importantly we need to gather and make public hard intelligence nailing these ********.

Jake · Post by **Jake** » 29 Nov 2008 05:43

joshvajohn wrote:It is time for a strategic plan for India to work closely with US and others who are willing to cooperate and eliminate terrorising people. India should get all the details about Lakshar's operation and headquarters in Pakistan. The accuracy and other details of the places should be ready. Then along with US, Israel and including Russia organise anti terror campaign similar to one which is done in the north of Pakistan by US and Afgan forces. Get some or hire F 22 then target guided attack and then destroy those training centre within Pakistan if Pakistan itself is not able to do within given time by India. It is essential to do this so that the destroyed camps will expose pakistan. It is essential to keep this as an important option at this point. I also feel that there are more of this kind of attacks on other cities and other infrastructures are going to follow with ground based support (not necessarily with the support of Pakistan government rather by other agencies in Pakistan). There is no control of power in Pakistan and so ISI leader would behave in his own way. There are many things possible and Pakistan has an official sanction of everything that can hurt India in its business or any other form of growth. It is essential to put security of the country above the bipartisan politics in India. I still think that Manmohan singh government is very weak in taking any proactive action against terror organisations. Without which we will end up defending our people at the cost of many police, civilians and army personal.

The finger points toward Pak, not necessarily the Pak Govt., but nevertheless elements in Pak, who wish nothing more than the destruction of the Indian ethos. But thats not going to happen, ever ! So short of nuking them, lets talk about the changes that inevitably have to happen in India after 11/26 (not as catchy as 9/11

). Since these malevolent forces wont go away, India has to evolve. Once course of action is as Israel has done; not condoning their excesses, but they have the respect of all terrorists not doubt at all. India needs to do the same, so we dont look like a 'soft' target anymore. May I suggest compulsory military training for all Indians!

Sudip · Post by **Sudip** » 29 Nov 2008 05:45

Jake wrote:
joshvajohn wrote:It is time for a strategic plan for India to work closely with US and others who are willing to cooperate and eliminate terrorising people. India should get all the details about Lakshar's operation and headquarters in Pakistan. The accuracy and other details of the places should be ready. Then along with US, Israel and including Russia organise anti terror campaign similar to one which is done in the north of Pakistan by US and Afgan forces. Get some or hire F 22 then target guided attack and then destroy those training centre within Pakistan if Pakistan itself is not able to do within given time by India. It is essential to do this so that the destroyed camps will expose pakistan. It is essential to keep this as an important option at this point. I also feel that there are more of this kind of attacks on other cities and other infrastructures are going to follow with ground based support (not necessarily with the support of Pakistan government rather by other agencies in Pakistan). There is no control of power in Pakistan and so ISI leader would behave in his own way. There are many things possible and Pakistan has an official sanction of everything that can hurt India in its business or any other form of growth. It is essential to put security of the country above the bipartisan politics in India. I still think that Manmohan singh government is very weak in taking any proactive action against terror organisations. Without which we will end up defending our people at the cost of many police, civilians and army personal.

The finger points toward Pak, not necessarily the Pak Govt., but nevertheless elements in Pak, who wish nothing more than the destruction of the Indian ethos. But thats not going to happen, ever ! So short of nuking them, lets talk about the changes that inevitably have to happen in India after 11/26 (not as catchy as 9/11 ). Since these malevolent forces wont go away, India has to evolve. Once course of action is as Israel has done; not condoning their excesses, but they have the respect of all terrorists not doubt at all. India needs to do the same, so we dont look like a 'soft' target anymore. May I suggest compulsory military training for all Indians!

I will always support that. NCC is to be made compulsory in all schools and colleges. All able bodied men to undergo indian national reserve training and duty for certain period.

samuel · Post by **samuel** » 29 Nov 2008 05:47

Here is the kind of response that beats terrorists ground up, even coming out of ndtv:

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/mu ... &type=News

or TOI

yvijay · Post by **yvijay** » 29 Nov 2008 05:48

I just read some interesting news in telugu paper Eenadu. It seems that the terrorists went directly to a room occupied by the American intelligence officers in Taj. The officers checked in to the hotel as civilians and nobody except few people in American embassy know about it. But these terrorists were able to go directly to their room, took them as hostages and killed them.

Also, it seems even the police official don't know that the Jewish couple are conducting prayers in Nariman house. They are surprised how the mofos got to know about it.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 29 Nov 2008 05:48

EDITED - sorry - this is not the rant thread

Abhi_G · Post by **Abhi_G** » 29 Nov 2008 05:49

ramana wrote:In memory of those who were killed by the terrorists:

Bhagvad Gita Chapter II verse 23.

Nainam cchindanti shastraani nainam dahati paavakah;
Na chainam kledayantyaapo na shoshayati maarutah.

23. Weapons cut It not, fire burns It not, water wets It not, wind dries It not.

COMMENTARY: The Self is partless. It is infinite and extremely subtle. So the sword cannot cut It, fire cannot burn It, wind cannot dry It.

Swami Sivananda

May they rest in peace. Or Latin "requiescat in pace"

They are eternal now.

Lets say a few prayers in whatever language and religions for the dead.

Thanks, ramana

Ramana in response, another powerful one from the Bhagavad Gita about those who became eternal:

Ajo Nityah Sasvatoyam Purano
Na Hanyate Hanymaane Sharire

Unborn, eternal, everlasting, primeval, it does not die when the body dies.
Bhagavad Gita Canto 2 Shloka 20

From Maitreyi Devi's novel "Na Hanyate".

Anant · Post by **Anant** » 29 Nov 2008 05:50

Thank you for posting a photo of a true hero. I shall save it. Thanks again and many thank yous for your selfless efforts. All that I have accomplished cannot measure up to your tenacity and self sacrifice. Thank you.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 29 Nov 2008 05:51

What do we need to talk to ISI head about?

Targets should be precisely.

1. Terrorists training facilities at Muridke (about 80KMs from Amritsar) and Muzaffarabad.
2. Known DAwood's facilities all over Karachi.
3. Known Dawood's facilities in Dubai.

Talks over Pakora's and chai with PIGs will only produce FARTS like they have from last 50 years.

Abhi_G · Post by **Abhi_G** » 29 Nov 2008 05:53

Naval embargo in the Arabian Sea.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 29 Nov 2008 05:54

Let me remind the BRIites

Only true way to remember/commemorate the sacrifice of a Hero is to finish the job that he/she started.

Only true way to remember/commemorate the sacrifice of a Hero is to finish the job that he/she started.

Only true way to remember/commemorate the sacrifice of a Hero is to finish the job that he/she started.

Only true way to remember/commemorate the sacrifice of a Hero is to finish the job that he/she started.

Sudip · Post by **Sudip** » 29 Nov 2008 05:55

apart from the economic ways to starve pakistan cant we launch sum sort of cyberwar?? completely destroy their cyberinfrastructure

Jake · Post by **Jake** » 29 Nov 2008 05:55

samuel wrote:Here is the kind of response that beats terrorists ground up, even coming out of ndtv:

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/mu ... &type=News

or TOI

BEST picture of the whole damn 3 days. And no miserable Indian TV crews, just humble Indian people who are genuinely and sincerely thankful. And most incredible of all, is how that man is so humble. Thats the Indian way. We dont seek glory, just do our job. Maybe thats our weakness too, huh ?

Rahul Shukla · Post by **Rahul Shukla** » 29 Nov 2008 05:56

Somebody is telling us to "hire" F-22's and bomb Pakistan. Another one is saying that "...finger points towards Pak, not necessarily the Pak Govt., but nevertheless elements in Pak, who wish nothing more than the destruction of the Indian ethos."

Let me tell you how to find the elements in Pak, who wish nothing more than the destruction of Indian ethos. You go outside, and point at the first person you see. It's that simple. And Govt. of Pakistan is not complicit in this attack? Boss, you really dont have a clue, do you?

Finally, Pentagon tells me that F-22's have all been rented out by something called the USAF at least for the next 4 decades. So, shall we try Typhoons or Rafales instead? How about F-35's? Or can you just "hire" someone who can remind you when you post what is for hire and what is not?

But I do agree with you one one issue - I too have no f-ing clue why the mods are so mad at you. They really seem to be unfairly targetting the most wise amongst us. Shame!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Nov 2008 05:57

Jake wrote:
samuel wrote:Here is the kind of response that beats terrorists ground up, even coming out of ndtv:

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/mu ... &type=News

or TOI

BEST picture of the whole damn 3 days. And no miserable Indian TV crews, just humble Indian people who are genuinely and sincerely thankful. And most incredible of all, is how that man is so humble. Thats the Indian way. We dont seek glory, just do our job. Maybe thats our weakness too, huh ?

EDITED: Not the place for politics

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 29 Nov 2008 05:58

Strategic coperation with uncle to fight terror is bull crap as uncle himself is part of the problem. Did we not here Rice making India super power, wher is she now?

Can somebody please post
our super cop turned NSAdvisor MAK Narayanan doing?

Also how many chai biscoots ans samosas have been consumed while discussing "Is Mumbai Burning?"

notice how India fights war on terror on terror or territory in its own territory (1947 to kargil)

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 29 Nov 2008 06:00

Two things from this:

Some enthusiasts were seen approaching the force and getting a picture clicked with them just like with any Bollywood celebrity. More than 500 people surrounded the bus which was carrying the team of commandos and raised anti-Pakistan slogans till it moved away.

Isn't this compromising the identity of the NSG's? Shouldn't they also be covered up like the MARCOS to avoid unnecessary exposure?

Secondly, I notice a radio set which is quite prone to eavesdropping/jamming. Handsfree radio sets for the commando's immune to jamming or hacking should've been provided to them.

samuel wrote:Here is the kind of response that beats terrorists ground up, even coming out of ndtv:

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/mu ... &type=News

or TOI

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 29 Nov 2008 06:01

anishns wrote:Two things from this:

Secondly, I notice a radio set which is quite prone to eavesdropping/jamming. Handsfree radio sets for the commando's immune to jamming or hacking should've been provided to them.

Groan....

lakshmikanth · Post by **lakshmikanth** » 29 Nov 2008 06:03

Jake wrote:
samuel wrote:Here is the kind of response that beats terrorists ground up, even coming out of ndtv:

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/mu ... &type=News

or TOI

BEST picture of the whole damn 3 days. And no miserable Indian TV crews, just humble Indian people who are genuinely and sincerely thankful. And most incredible of all, is how that man is so humble. Thats the Indian way. We dont seek glory, just do our job. Maybe thats our weakness too, huh ?

Yep, from the looks he resembles my neighbourhood mallu chai-stand operator, and yet he and his likes are the heros of today, not the SRK chikna types. I salute you O brave one, I wish our administration also did their duty and not fail us like they have been doing for so long.

On a side note: I doubt whether India can take any pre-emptive proactive harsh long term actions, which is the need of the hour. Incase we do turn violent we would be constantly reminded of Mahatma Gandhi (Banal Bullshit Corporation (BBC) did that when our Buddha Smiled, and in some cases when Kargil war was assumed to topple over into TSPOK). So I dont know if MMS and Kangress is pondering WWGD: What would Gandhi Do?

I wonder if any amount Gandhianism can save one from the murderous piglets. In case of Gandhi Vs Hitler, its obvious that Gandhi will win in the long term, but will be dead before victory.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 29 Nov 2008 06:04

shyam wrote:
George J wrote:TIMES NOW Ticker: ISI Chief NOT coming to India.
Was GoI smoking pot to expect ISI chief to be in India so that narco-test can be conducted on him?

I do not understand who is discrediting the other person.

India's NSA informs us that ISI is a terrorist intelligence entity. And our PM wants to talk to it's representative.

Either MMS should fire his NSA or he submit his resignation letter to the nation.

lakshmikanth · Post by **lakshmikanth** » 29 Nov 2008 06:04

deleted by self

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 29 Nov 2008 06:05

The two arrested PIGs are the one's that got their pictures plastered all over the world and both of them are from naPakistan.

So!! These GUYS ARE 100% BONAFIDE PIGS who were born and raised in Punjab part of Pakistan and not POK or any other disputed part.

These guys are fighting for Islam and their "supposedly islamic issues in India"

EDITED: NEEDLESS INFLAMATORY POST

faraz · Post by **faraz** » 29 Nov 2008 06:06

EDITED

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 29 Nov 2008 06:07

yvijay wrote:

I just read some interesting news in telugu paper Eenadu. It seems that the terrorists went directly to a room occupied by the American intelligence officers in Taj. The officers checked in to the hotel as civilians and nobody except few people in American embassy know about it. But these terrorists were able to go directly to their room, took them as hostages and killed them.

So far the US media has no news of such deaths.

shynee · Post by **shynee** » 29 Nov 2008 06:08

Here is some YouTube videos from Arnab Goswami - TimesNow

Arnab and Sohail Seth is awesome. Guys watch

Part-I
Part-II
Part-III

Jake · Post by **Jake** » 29 Nov 2008 06:09

anishns wrote:Two things from this:

Some enthusiasts were seen approaching the force and getting a picture clicked with them just like with any Bollywood celebrity. More than 500 people surrounded the bus which was carrying the team of commandos and raised anti-Pakistan slogans till it moved away.
Isn't this compromising the identity of the NSG's? Shouldn't they also be covered up like the MARCOS to avoid unnecessary exposure?

Secondly, I notice a radio set which is quite prone to eavesdropping/jamming. Handsfree radio sets for the commando's immune to jamming or hacking should've been provided to them.

samuel wrote:Here is the kind of response that beats terrorists ground up, even coming out of ndtv:

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/mu ... &type=News

or TOI

Very true. I am confused with the on again off again balaclavas with the NSG/Marcos. They should have a consistent policy on public appearance and interaction, ie; a single spokesperson. Another thing that was so evident; Crowd control was non-existent. There should have been only police near the sites. And a definite tight (choke) lease on the paparazzi !

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Nov 2008 06:09

faraz wrote:
shiv wrote: Man looks like a North Indian. Where is Raj Thackray today?
Shiv-ji, With all due respect to you , let us not talk about greedy Politicians when watching the photo of a brave Soldier ? What do you say ?

No faraz No!

I live in India (as you probably do)
For too long we have respected our politicians are leaders.

They are not. Many are grabbing scheming criminals in power. They need to be kicked when it is clear that they are wrong. If we don;t do it now it can never be done

People get arrested in India for posting remarks about the thacrays and Sonia on the internet at normal times. Will Google up the links if you want on another thread.

We can't even TALK about them

Do not be misguided by emotion.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 29 Nov 2008 06:10

The New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/29/world ... intel.html

WASHINGTON — American intelligence and counterterrorism officials said Friday there was mounting evidence that a Pakistani militant group based in Kashmir, most likely Lashkar-e-Taiba, was responsible for the deadly attacks in Mumbai.

The American officials cautioned that they had reached no hard conclusions about who was responsible for the operation, nor on how it had been planned and carried out. Nevertheless, they said that evidence gathered over the past two days has pointed to a role for Lashkar-e-Taiba, or possibly another Pakistani group focused on Kashmir, Jaish-e-Muhammad.

The American officials insisted on anonymity in describing their current thinking and declined to discuss the intelligence information that they said pointed to Kashmiri militants.

Lashkar-e-Taiba on Thursday denied any responsibility for the terrorist strikes. The group is thought by American intelligence agencies to have received some training and logistical support in the past from Pakistan’s powerful spy service, the Inter-Services Intelligence agency, or ISI, but American officials said Friday that there was no evidence that the Pakistani government had any role in the Mumbai attacks.

American and Indian officials for years have blamed Lashkar-e-Taiba for a campaign of violence against high-profile targets throughout India, including the December 2001 attack on the Indian Parliament building in New Delhi and an August 2007 strike at an amusement park in Hyderabad.

At times, Indian officials have also said that Jaish-e-Muhammad was responsible for the 2001 attack on the Parliament building.

A State Department report issued this year called Lashkar-e-Taiba “one of the largest and most proficient of the Kashmiri-focused militant groups.” The report said that the group drew funding in part from Pakistani expatriate communities in the Middle East, despite the freezing of its assets by the United States and Pakistan in 2002, after the attack on the Indian Parliament.

The report said that the actual size of the group was unknown, but estimated its strength at “several thousand” members.

Pakistani officials announced Friday that the head of the ISI, Lt. Gen. Ahmed Shuja Pasha, would travel to India to assist the Indian government with its investigation of the attacks. If it occurred, the visit would mark a first for an ISI chief.

But by Friday evening, Pakistani officials were suggesting that a lower-level representative of the ISI would make the trop.

An FBI team has also been dispatched to Mumbai to assist with the forensic investigation of the attacks.

Lashkar-e-Taiba has, for the most part, not targeted Westerners in past attacks, as some reports said the attackers in Mumbai did. But one counterterrorism official said Friday that the group “has not pursued an exclusively Kashmiri agenda” and that the group might certainly go after Westerners to advance a broader goals.

The official said that there was also strong evidence that Lashkar-e-Taiba had a “maritime capability” and would definitely have been capable of mounting the sophisticated operation in Mumbai, which intelligence officials say they believe began when the attackers arrived in the city in small boats.

American and Indian officials are pursuing the possibility that the attackers arrived off the coast of Mumbai in a larger merchant ship, and then boarded the smaller boats before they launched the attack.

Even as a Kashmiri connection to the attacks began to emerge Friday, American officials said there were puzzled by some developments of the past two days. For instance, they said they still know next to nothing about a group called the Deccan Mujahedeen that has reportedly taken responsibility for the attacks.

Terrorism experts have said there is no evidence that the group was involved in past strikes, and speculated that the name was made up by another militant group to mask responsibility for the attacks.

Pakistan, meanwhile, seemed anxious to defuse the mounting crisis in relations with its neighbor.

The Pakistani foreign minister, Shah Mahmood Qureshi, said that India and his country should join hands to defeat a common enemy, and urged New Delhi not to play politics over the attacks in Mumbai, Reuters reported.

“Do not bring politics into this issue,” the Pakistani foreign minister told reporters in the Indian town of Ajmer during a four-day visit to India. “This is a collective issue. We are facing a common enemy and we should join hands to defeat the enemy.”

President Asif Ali Zardari of Pakistan called Prime Minister Manmohan Singh of India, Reuters reported, to say he was “appalled and shocked” by the terrorist attacks. “Non-state actors wanted to force upon the governments their own agenda, but they must not be allowed to succeed,” he said.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Nov 2008 06:11

Jake wrote:
Very true. I am confused with the on again off again balaclavas with the NSG/Marcos. They should have a consistent policy on public appearance and interaction, ie; a single spokesperson. Another thing that was so evident; Crowd control was non-existent. There should have been only police near the sites. And a definite tight (choke) lease on the paparazzi !

Have a heart boss. This man was probably mobbed by a ten thousand crowd as we saw on TV around Nariman house last night.

Duangkomon · Post by **Duangkomon** » 29 Nov 2008 06:11

JTull wrote:Arrested terrorist says gang hoped to get away

From there, they mandated to kill indiscriminately, particularly white foreign tourists, and spare Muslims split up into five batches. Two of them Ismail and Ajmal took a taxi to Victoria Terminus. Three other batches of two each headed for Oberoi Hotel, Cafe Leopold and Nariman House. The remaining four went to Taj Hotel.

12 terrorists: 2 killed in Taj, 3 or 4 ? in Trident, 2 in skoda encounter, 2 in Nariman house, 1 caught, so there should be 1 or 2 piglets left in Taj.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 29 Nov 2008 06:11

nkumar wrote:Did 24X7 channels give away commando plans?

All these journos/news channels need to have a session with MHA/NSG/IA.

What I do not understand is why GOI is not arresting some of these media journalists so they go thru some ATS debriefing sessions.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 29 Nov 2008 06:12

A_Gupta wrote:So far the US media has no news of such deaths.

Paki media has though...
US spies killed in terrorist raid

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 29 Nov 2008 06:12

Stupid Times Now reporter telling how many commands are on each side. Sheesh!!!

yvijay · Post by **yvijay** » 29 Nov 2008 06:12

Another snippet from eenadu. This is the account recollected one of the constable, Mr.Jhadav. It seems the martayed police officers Mr.Kamte, Mr.Karkare, Mr. Salskar and the 3 other constables, all were travelling in the same qualis vehicle. They got the news that a red maruthi swift car was parked near Police headquarters and are leaving for that. Mr.Salskar took the steering from the driver and Mr.Kamate moved to the front. Mr.Karkare was in the second row and the other constables in the back. When they were near xaviers college, the terrorist opened fire on them from the bushes. All the three officers got hit. Then the mofos came to towards the vehicle and opened fire on the others. The constable Jhadav was hit in the right shoulder and fell inside the qualis. The other 3 police men were killed. They dragged the officers out of the Qualis and drove away the qualis with the other bodies in the back. These are the mofos who got killed at the police barricades.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 29 Nov 2008 06:14

Folks notice the controlled press of USA versu true free press of India, which will support the cause of the enemy at any coat revealiong the detailed movements like the talks between coach and quarter back in foot ball.

One idiotic mistake by Geraldo of fractional revelations in early ops in Afghanistan , Geraldo was relagated to dustbin of doing rape victims stories.

Some Indian journaliist need to be whacked on their backs in public and naked. Folks keep track of such DDM idiots.

Recall how a tank fire was directed at TV crew in Bhagdad which NPR reporter described in detail was deliberate on orders to take out reporters give real time updates of the excesses of marines...

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 29 Nov 2008 06:15

These ATS guys with rifles, all of them look fat and unfit. Even the mumbai cops look lethargic with the beer belly. Only the RAF guys looked sharp and fit.