Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

[Vikram_S]

Bijusheth i wish and hope you are right but seeing WKK still breathing sulfur on this very forum is not soothing . Islamic Jihadis are natural born killers of kaffir people but provideing them with moral cover by PSs is deliberate decision . Instead of going to war , India needs internal purge and remove the physical hurdles created in achieving internal cohesion and then prepare for proper response to external threats .If not Modi , We need Moditva .

the WKKs are a gone case. for the sake of their idealogy we can all die but they will light a candle in our memory and feel good about their own nobility.

[BijuShet]

[quote="BijuShet These men are functioning like the rest of us with a limited view of the entire picture.

What? They are people like us with LIMITED view of the entire picture. The problem is they are not functioning but just defending themselves. They can't have limited view and function.[/quote]
I meant in the current context the situation was still fluid until a few hours ago for eg even now no one know if these structures are going to be intact or will need to be brought down and rebuilt. Even as I write we do not know the true body count of all innocents. Besides you read all these rumours of US intelligence officials being victims or that there were more incidents of firing in other parts. There were rumors of 40 terrorists being involved and we have accounted for less than 15. Now what about the remaining 25. If a politician goes on the record about any thing concrete then their words will comeback to haunt them later if there is a phase 2 to all of this. Besides not uttering some platitudes will not help their case either so now is the time for them to make some seemingly correct sounding noises but stopping short of saying their real thoughts. Understand that the places that got hit are also places frequented by children of these elected reps. They understand the stakes but are looking for 10 Janpath to set the initial compass. Once 10 Janpaths thoughts are clearly defined, the real thoughts of others will flow in defence of mother india or in defiance of mother Indias interests. Just wait and watch for now and keep collecting the relevant information. We will able to connect most of the dots in the next few days. BR has always done that and this time wont be any different.

[Prem]

VS, lets hope and prey they die first before India is destroyed by them.

[manand]

Do you think its a good reason to NOT go on agression just because enemy's investment to cause harm to India was less than the cost of the war or aftermaths?

Pak govt may not have any interest in the cleaning up terrorists and training camps from its territory but India does.

I am all for retaliation, but why use million dollar equipment when we can achieve the same at fraction of cost. Someone said that hunger is the best sauce and the worst enemy. Think what will happen in Pakistan when 5000 people swarm on a warehouse full of grains kept hidden for Pakistani elites? Think about it. No shots will be fired at Pakistan, no body will get killed, but everyone in Pakistan will suffer.

I think suffering of civilians and normal citizens not involved in such actions should be minimized so I don't agree with your comments. The action on Pok camps should be quick and heavy with minimum civilian casualities unless Pak decides to make it prolong on border. BTW, terrorists are not civilians.

[p_shetty]

R.R. Patil's Z+ security cover should be taken out for a few months and he will realize how safe the city is!

[SBajwa]

At a Miminum how hard is following for government.
1. Breaking all diplomatic relations with Pakistan. (continue talking with naPakistanis through USA diplomats only in English)
2. Blockade Karachi and Gawadar until Pakistan agrees to extradite

Maulana Masood Azhar
Mushtaq Ahmed Zargar
Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh
Ibrahim Athar
Shahid Akhtar Sayed
Sunny Ahmed Qazi
Mistri Zahoor Ibrahim
Shakir

along with Dawood Ibrahim and his goons?

Can GOI pull this off?

[JTull]

Let's say that Paki govt. is not responsible if their is territory being used for such attacks. Let's say they could have done better to control these elements but they can only do so much.

I've only one question for the pseudo-secularists. What happens if some terrorist launches a nuclear or dirty-nuke attack from their territory. What should India do then?

What if this bunch had detonated a dirty bomb at the sea front off Gateway of India (so close to naval base, BARC) etc

So how should this castrated GoI react?

[Prem]

How hard is to blockade Karachi and Gawadar until Pakistan agrees to extradite


Can GOI pull this off?

You have answered your own question. There is no chance of current GOI acting in national defence . There have been no indication of such efforts in last 4-5 years . UPA constituency wont allow this.

[A Arun]

Burnt-out interior of a room at Taj

[Jayram]

Ok I am no genious but how about suspending the Indus treaty till futher notice. I know it means nothing on the ground but it will communicate intent wont it?

[manand]

And how is that supposed to prevent future such attacks?

Bring back POTA to handle internal miscreants. Make sure our ports, airports, schools, universities, defense labs, power plants are protected. After that whatever slips thru we can handle it. Do not do what US did. Its simply does not make economic sense.

Basu, your suggestion is good but is it doable? Have you seen any, even small, attack in the US after 9/11? How many attacks have you seen in India in last 12 months? Does agressive action make sense if it protects Indian citizens from killing and getting terrorized? or do you think anyways people die and extra 100-200 will not make any difference? If everyone start thinking in your way then conditions in India will soon be like Pak. I agree that impacts on economics should be made note of and plan should be in place to recover from it but it should not be the prime reason to not take an action.

[lakshmikanth]

Here is Faux News saying it was an intel failure:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,459093,00.html


I have finally come to the conclusion that nothing will ever happen, I have decided to stop reading news and vote BJP next time... I dont know what else I can do!

[Arjun]

And how is that supposed to prevent future such attacks?

Bring back POTA to handle internal miscreants. Make sure our ports, airports, schools, universities, defense labs, power plants are protected. After that whatever slips thru we can handle it. Do not do what US did. Its simply does not make economic sense.

Economic santions by India alone will hardly have any affect. It has to be international - which in an environment where the West is looking for Pakistan's help to control the Taliban - is unlikely. Morover, you can also argue that economic sanctions will hurt the average Abdul and result in creating more unemployed jehadis. The need is to target the source - D-Company, ISI, LeT.... both economically and militarily through surgical strikes.

[A Arun]

Ok I am no genious but how about suspending the Indus treaty till futher notice. I know it means nothing on the ground but it will communicate intent wont it?

India has never blackmailed Pakistan with water. The treaty has survived 3 wars. Don't think they'll do it.

[Vikram_S]

@prem

you are optimist sir.

WKK keep creating more WKKs via school outreach program, "secularised" educational books all the way to class 12, and of course media. then they either go abroad, sit in journalism or arts jobs (advertising etc), government position and dictate policy and give each other awards: eminent journalist, eminent activist, eminent historian

somebody said it best (worst) - in these peoples eyes:

delhi hit at diwali---> revenge for babri, godhra
if bangalore gets hit, --->is only IT problem, beside karnataka elects BJP this time
if bombay stock exchange and train got hit --> then it is gujarati rich upper caste people who support modi --> so it is ok, it was revenge

but now it is attack on five star hotels media is upset, indian "industry" is upset. so that is bad. we should have "panel discussion" with "eminent personalities". not that it was attack on mumbai itself and every indian should burn in anger.

it is so shameless and disturbing. and even now these wkk types will come and tell us indians how to behave and about "leaders parachuting". they have truly lost all sense of direction, of common sense. anyone strong on national security = hindu fascist forces.

bijushet,

yes you understood. yes, we are very disturbed and angry. three nights of such anger and torture. what has happened to mumbai means the congress should never come back to power for next 50 years. i will even vote for mayawati as alternative to BJP to keep two party system going but not congress. gandhi family can find another country to rob and rule.

[manand]

Let's say that Paki govt. is not responsible if their is territory being used for such attacks. Let's say they could have done better to control these elements but they can only do so much.

I've only one question for the pseudo-secularists. What happens if some terrorist launches a nuclear or dirty-nuke attack from their territory. What should India do then?

What if this bunch had detonated a dirty bomb at the sea front off Gateway of India (so close to naval base, BARC) etc

So how should this castrated GoI react?

If terrorists have an hand on dirty bomb then its a very serious issue. What is the %age of Pak army do support terrorists? Any attack launched from Pak territory is Pak govt's responsibility so India should react like Pak did it. If they can't control their own territory then impacted states should go to control these terrorists.

[darshan]

I know we have done this before. But we should compile list of anti Indian and just turned patriots.

DELETED

[enqyoob]

This is bad:

The final assault:
'After we realised that their position had weakened, our next aim was to step in save the remaining hostages. But we realised that we had approached the end game and so did they. As the night wore on they began killing the rest of the hostages, who they had kept in a room. There was nothing we could do about it.

[George J]

So WHEN are we going to have tea at RYK this time? Its been seven years man, all I want is some tea @ RYK.

So HOW are the all knowing Hot Air Ayatollahs going to weasel out of this one, when the same travel advisories and the panic stricken calls form Bengaluru IT-Vity types ask the govt to back off???

Come on its only 155 lives in Mumbai, Bangaluru IT-Vity more important than having tea at RYK.

Do you kids remember my "shiny Medallion" observation back from 7/11?

On a more serious jingo note....you can kiss them Phalcons goodbye if we pull another "stunt" like Op. Parakram.

So much for if xyz was in power they would have done 1,2 and 3. Now back to good old Hot Air wet dreams, where were we? Oh yeah, blockade of Karachi.............

[SBajwa]

Economic santions by India alone will hardly have any affect.

Blockade of Karachi and Gawadar for three months will do wonders.

China can only send so much oil through the karakorum
Iran can only supply few trucks that Balochis let pass through Baluchistan.

Karachi and Gawadar means basic oil, wheat, sugar and meat. There will be food riots and people will beg government to hand over these guys

Only sensible thing to do is.

1. Breaking off all diplomatic relations with Pakistan. (continue talking with naPakistanis through USA diplomats only in English)
2. Blockade Karachi and Gawadar until Pakistan agrees to extradite

Maulana Masood Azhar
Mushtaq Ahmed Zargar
Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh
Ibrahim Athar
Shahid Akhtar Sayed
Sunny Ahmed Qazi
Mistri Zahoor Ibrahim
Shakir

along with Dawood Ibrahim and his goons?

[NRao]

Here is Faux News saying it was an intel failure:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,459093,00.html


I have finally come to the conclusion that nothing will ever happen, I have decided to stop reading news and vote BJP next time... I dont know what else I can do!

That is a fact. Having said that the experts (not just here) are actually comparing what happened in Mumbai to what they either see on the ground outside India or what they would like to see anywhere.

Indian airport security is said to be just great - something that was touted when the US was building their airport security - Western experts actually were on Nightline, etc making such statements - so were travelers that had been to India.

MMS had actually reduced certain laws that had been enacted by the BJP IIRC. But, I am not sure how much of that would have helped this particular situation. I have to ASSUME that it would helped to some extent.

IF the story is true that these yahoos managed to kill (slit the throats!!!!) of TWO people of authority to reach Bombay.............. failure....................it is.

Cong nor BJP has ANY expertise in this matter. It is Indian security and ALL Indians (CPI an exception?) need to subscribe to it - specially Muslims.

[svinayak]

Here is Faux News saying it was an intel failure:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,459093,00.html


I have finally come to the conclusion that nothing will ever happen, I have decided to stop reading news and vote BJP next time... I dont know what else I can do!

FOXnews quoted some security experts and Israelis that the Nariman point siege could have been
handled better way when there was two opportunities to negotiate with the terrorists in the Chabat center.

It is the big question: Could more have been done to prevent the Mumbai massacre?

While terrorism experts say Indian special forces performed with remarkable bravery and professionalism in their battle with the terrorists, they believe the attacks should — and could — have been thwarted by better intelligence.

Professor Paul Wilkinson lectures in international relations at the University of St. Andrews and is joint editor of the academic journal Terrorism and Political Violence.

He told Sky News: "We have to accept there was an intelligence failure. They should have nipped this in the bud but it wasn't on their radar. Intelligence doesn't come out of this very well. This was a major operation with lots of people involved. It wasn't just a cell; there were teams of gunmen — lots of well trained people. A large number of people must have been in the know about this attack."

Former SAS trooper Robin Horsfall, who took part in the storming of the Iranian embassy in 1980, also believes the international intelligence community should have known the attacks were being planned.

"The security services weren't sure what they were dealing with and it was very difficult for them. A lot of things will no doubt come out after it's all over about what happened and why. The real failure though was in the intelligence. The whole world is trying to stop these things — this was a failure in terms of the intelligence but a success in terms of security in general."

[SandeepA]

Good that Versace girlie-boy is the only surviving terrorist. His pics will make it all the more unacceptable when A'dhoti Roy tries to hug him to pardon a death sentence. We can always play his tape over n over again and make A'dhoti look like a paki herself for fawning over this pig.

[Sanjay]

I urge people to show some psychological determination. India still exists. How well it comes out of this depends on how people respond.

Instead of only complaining about inadequate security infrastructure, how many BRites have undertaken a Civil Defence training course or joined the home guards ? At least be prepared to help in an emergency.

How about a proactive citizens' movement to fund equipment purchases, especially of small ticket items for cops and fire-fighters and the Home Guards ?

Where the administration fails, the citzenry must step in. Citizens make the state and not vice versa.

Whether it means volunteering to assist with rural health care and education to assisting with citizens' volunteer security groups such as the Civil Defence Organization and the Home Guards, the average Indian must step up to the plate.

[Tanaji]

1) When he led the ATS team, why was not he updated by anyone about the weapons the terrorists were carrying.
He was ambushed while on his way to Cama hospital in his car with his colleagues. The most battle rugged commandos can fall prey for that.

2)Were the terrorists informed in advance about his arrival, I do not think AK 47 is a very good weapon to snipe.
It is a spray and pray weapon but at close quarters it is deadly.

3)The team which had hit upon something big in the Malegaon probe, is entirely wiped out, maybe we will never know how much and what they really found out. I have particularly grave concerns in this area, because these unheard organization is suddenly getting logistic support ( only from a rogue Army Intellegence officer? )
It is a different probe and only in its preliminary stages.

1. The initial report was that there was firing at Cama Hospital. The initial assumption was that there was some sort of firing by people with automatic weapons, possible AK47s. Some prior knowledge was there, but of course, they were unaware of the sophistication and training of the terrorists

2. No, it seems that the terrorists just wanted to make their gateway from Cama hospital. The ATS team were unlucky: they had a wireless message that a red car was the one that contained the terrorrists. Salaskar was driving and Karkare was in front with a AK (I think). There were 3 constables at back with a Sten and a wireless operator ( I think). They spotted the red car in front and slowed down to investigate, when there was a burst of fire from *both* sides: from the red car and another one in the trees. Salaskar was killed immediately, Karkare was hit and died on the way. Not sure how Kamte died. The constable, Jadhav with the Sten got hit as well

3. Have you considered that the ATS team is more of an ad hoc wrt its operating procedures? It is not an army unit, and is composed of officers that are used to dealing with criminals rather than terrorists. Their instinct is to act immediately upon information and head for the "encounter". Salaskar was typical of this mentality. It is just unfortunate that all 3 were in the same Qualis. Of course, I cant prevent anyone spinning theories of a hindu conspiracy, but all events point (including the testimony of the constable who survived) point to the fact that this was a "chance" event.

[darshan]

FOXnews quoted some security experts and Israelis that the Nariman point siege could have been
handled better way when there was two opportunities to negotiate with the terrorists in the Chabat center.

It is an absurd nonsense. If Isrealis really said that, then they should be reminded of how they help chinese. Isrealis also have missiles and much talked about intel agency and they are more than welcomed to take their revenge on UK and pakistan.
Why would third team go there unless they absolutely wanted to kill them? It is was out of their way. Third team could have easily taken over one more five star hotel or a train at CST. Killing Jewish was absolutely must do item on their list and nothing could have prevented it. Period.

[Eshwar]

Here is what Modi said in Mumbai:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMXqg11A-7o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Y5AkBFBXwQ

[ramana]

All those Monday morning quarter backs inthe West who claim that it could have been handled better are not aware of the issues. the terrorists were on an massacre mission and not to negotiate their way. they had no demands only to kill their hostages. its sad that these experts spout their wisdon without knowing the facts. And hence can be dismissed. it doesnt matter what they think. Sure 911 could also have been prevented. if onlee .....

Also the British should do some introspection as to how many of those terroists were from UK. So they also are complicit with the Pakis by providing recruits to the Pakis.

meanwhile Rediff headline

Are you a Brahmin?

Shows the hatred of the chaps.

[Tanaji]

Heard at a press conference with R. R. Patil:

Were the terrorists speaking Marathi?

WTF?? The electronic media journalists have absolutely no shame. At a time like this...

What difference does this make?

[ramana]

Tanaji, Sabar karo. The DDM and pseudo secular elite are hoping against hope that Pakis are not invovled. Its cognitive dissonance at work. All that WKK has ended up making them fools. When such a massive attack has happened they cant believe that the Pakis did it. we need more people to get educated about the nature of the state of TSP. Its not a homeland for Muslims. Its hatred central. Land of orcs and sub-humans.

[ArjunVV]

This was not a terrorist attack. It was pak army ssg commando operation. It is believed that upto 40 of these entered India.
May be the worst is not over yet.

[svinayak]

MMS had actually reduced certain laws that had been enacted by the BJP IIRC. But, I am not sure how much of that would have helped this particular situation. I have to ASSUME that it would helped to some extent.

Fareed Zakaria is interviewing Ratan Tata tomorrow on CNN GPS. Ratan Tata told that they
had the info and beefed up the security such as no car parking near the hotel.

But the terrorists waited until things were relaxed and then attacked Mumbai.

There is increasing pressure on Indian govt and the media is trying to deflect it.
Indian business community may take the heat.

The Indian media is trying to reduce the pressure on the UPA govt. But the repeal of POTA and reducing security measures are not being highlighted in the media. Very controlled debate on the UPA policies of the last 4 years.

[George J]

Why do they have you as a "Trainee". There is lies the problem. One must respect wisdom. Tea @ RYK then.

Oh sure.........here comes the excuses.

I want my tea @ RYK, BR Hot air forum promised me this way back in 2001.

[BijuShet]

To all fellow Rakshaks please understand that an any economic or sea blockade along with any act of water disruption is considered an act of war. Unless India has prepared itself for open war we cannot do any of these things as we may invite nuclear war upon us without adequate preparations. In 1940-41 USA maintained an economic blockade of Japan and thus cut off Japanese oil supplies and the result was Japanese doing a Pearl harbor. We all know the rest but understand that US declared the war on japan and Japan instead of giving in decided to fight an unwinnable war.

Similarly we know in the larger context we will win the war with the Pakis but before we declare war we need to be prepared for our own body bags. Even as we criticize the US war on terror they have paid a heavy price in the blood of 4000 of their own young and willing. We better prepare ourselves on a war footing before we act. These would mean giving up civil liberties including reduced access to information (remember emergency), prison term for HR and other WKK kinds of govt opposition and more importantly reduced food and drink to party. It also would mean to sit in the dark at night with closed drapes and excessive use of candles. It would mean children not attending school for 2-3 years and parents not getting adequate medical attention. Even basic items like food and petrol would be sold at 3 times their normal price via black marketting. NRIs will not being able to travel to India to visit family as all flights to India will be suspended. Essentially we are inviting a long term hardship on ourselves. If we all are committed to accepting these hardships then we are ready to take on the Pakis otherwise we are all wet dreaming just like the Pakis on the deaf and dumb forum who wish to the green rag on the Red Fort. 200 dead does not mean anything as Govt of India will calculate that we loose more than that number daily to diseases like TB alone. Even the hit to economy is a false idea as money goes where ever there is profit to be made. So other than change in Govt there is not much we may see. And just to clarify my loyalties lie with the NDA yet their Parakaram did not inspire much confidence either so will not be holding my breath for any action from them either.

[gashish]

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/nov/29m ... mmando.htm

The numbers:
'A total of 180 commandos were involved in the operation. Some of us took a break from time to time. Some of us briefly even went to the Nariman House to finish off the operation.

'During the operation at the Taj, we saw there were more than 8 terrorists. However, we do not know how many civilians were trapped in the building.

Initial reports suggested 4 terrorists in Taj. NSG commando interview on TimesNow also claimed 4.

But this report suggests 8 at Taj.

8 at Taj+2 at Chabad+2 at Nariman+2 at CST= 14 mosquitoes from pakiswamp.

So what happened to other 5?

[A Arun]

Good that Versace girlie-boy is the only surviving terrorist. His pics will make it all the more unacceptable when A'dhoti Roy tries to hug him to pardon a death sentence. We can always play his tape over n over again and make A'dhoti look like a paki herself for fawning over this pig.

Where is Arundhati by the way? Why hasn't any channel spoken to her yet? They've had Arjun Rampal, Rahul Bose, Sharmila Tagore, Sanjana Kapoor, et al on their discussions. When would they talk to the real experts on terrorism - Arundhati, Teesta Seetlevad, that Tehelka chick, etc?

[lakshmikanth]

Has MMS/Shivraj Patil made any statement to the public after the completion of the ops? I have been searching for news but none so far.

It would be totally disgusting if they didn't and I guess its the end of the road for KangressI

[Shalav]

I want my tea @ RYK, BR Hot air forum promised me this way back in 2001.

Well you got your crow soup! Maybe this time or in the near future you (we) will get this wish fulfilled too. Diwali is gone, but Christmas is around the corner.

I just keep hoping MMS does not find an excuse to negotiate another one more peace. A futile hope I fear, but what to do? We are Indians only!

[Mort Walker]

So WHEN are we going to have tea at RYK this time? Its been seven years man, all I want is some tea @ RYK.

So HOW are the all knowing Hot Air Ayatollahs going to weasel out of this one, when the same travel advisories and the panic stricken calls form Bengaluru IT-Vity types ask the govt to back off???

Come on its only 155 lives in Mumbai, Bangaluru IT-Vity more important than having tea at RYK.

Do you kids remember my "shiny Medallion" observation back from 7/11?

On a more serious jingo note....you can kiss them Phalcons goodbye if we pull another "stunt" like Op. Parakram.

So much for if xyz was in power they would have done 1,2 and 3. Now back to good old Hot Air wet dreams, where were we? Oh yeah, blockade of Karachi.............

Yaar...You've been yelling about the Phalcons for over 5 years now. Had a full out hot war had happened after baara-theraa 2001, the non delivery of Phalcons would have meant less. TSP nukes were less and more primitive. Now, 7 years later TSP forces are in better shape today, thanks to unkil, to withstand the IA, IAF and IN.

Not much is going to happen and at if there was an xyz PM today, he could have at least offered us jingos an aar-paar ki laadi.

On a more personal note, I hope your friends and family are safe and sound in Mumbai.

[Lalmohan]

btw - somebody has told barkha about "WKK" on BRF - when she was hosting the segment on candle lit condemnation from janata - she hastily added that this was not about peace...

btw - our aam angrezi ishpeaking janata is being very reticent on tv about next steps, no one is suggesting counterstrike at the snake's lair - or atleast not directly. i am sure that if you spoke to villagers in Haryana or Meghalaya or wherever - they would give you a pretty clear answer on what to do next and where to drop the bombs