Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Dec 2008 02:28

Anyone who brings in Kashmir or Cashmere along with Mumbai terrorist attack are justifying the terror. Plain and simple. No ifs and buts.

Sudhanshu · Post by **Sudhanshu** » 02 Dec 2008 02:30

ramana wrote:Is it only ATS problem to go after the 'missing' people are is it IB now that there are definite links to foreign countries? I thought IB was the premier agency when counter intelligence is involved/required. Relying on ATS which has become headless is quite unproductive.

I believe the arrested terrorist should be drugged (or whatever mean necessary) and asked how these missing people look alike and based on that there should be mass and desperate manhunt for them.

That should be top priority of ALL counter terrorism units in entire nation, as of now.

May be if they are arrested alive, their testimony would be helpful in making case for liberation of POK

adharia · Post by **adharia** » 02 Dec 2008 02:33

TO WHOM EVER IT MAY CONCERN
What this attack is shown is not the Pakistan is behind the attacks-we already knew that, it has shown something worse. The shallowness of the Indian Heart. Our politician have made statements like "Such small incidents happen".."If it were not for Sandeep, even a dog wouldn’t have looked that way".."Our home minister resigned, but when the parliament was attacked no one from BJP resigned"..what crap.
Everyone today is complaining that there is no political will, our politicians are wimps etc etc. But have we stopped to ask where these wimps came from. We ourselves have elected these creatures from amongst us. And in the next elections also WE will only elect them again. Either by running away from India (cowards like me) or by not voting at all.
If not SG it will LK. No difference. Both are insensitive, self-serving ...(don’t need to repeat the rest of the adjectives)..like us. These people too are from amongst us right and we ourselves have elected them. Some think they are bad because they are illiterate, they should think again. We have MMS to represent the literate lot. Actually even if the PM wants to do something-giving him the benefit of the doubt, he will not be supported by his “allies”, who are not the countries allies. He needs a majority in parliament to even breath, right. You think people like Mulayam Singh and Lallu and the entire CPI will support him? We have agents from various enemies ruling us. CPI represents China, Mulayam, Lallu and even that Karunanidhi represent Pak. Sharad Pawar represents Dawood. So their loyalties defer. There is no one who represents us. So we are dying and we will continue to die.
No amount of federal Intelligence or NSG will help us. We already had an ATS what good did they do-not to undermine Karkare’s sacrifice, but I seriously think he could have avoided that had he got the intel, which he did have access to. Indian Police did not have the equipment, but GOI had provided the funds, where did they go? In luxury sedans and the pockets of a few. So who is to blame? Is it the Govt up there or the people down here who too are irresponsible and careless?
What we need is to review our democracy and ourselves. The fact is that even we actually don’t have any regard for life. Tell me, just a simple instance, in how many places in India do we have fire extinguishers, or even if we do have them, how many really work? We either do not install them or we just put drums with red paint, because we too don’t care. If there is an incident and some worms like us die, then we bribe someone and all will forget. It is WE who actually do not respect life not just our politicians. These wimps are only a reflection of us. We feel bad to see this gruesome picture, but it is only you and me whom we see in that distorted image. Because the Government you get is the Government you deserve.
Some say Hindus are cowards, but we dint see that during the Mumbai incident. It is not about valor or bravery, we have a lot of that. It is about attitude. Did any of us came up and sit on dharna when the bomb blasts happened. No one because people die by the scores here everyday and no one cares. We are like a colony of ants, everyone doing their job, and if a few die it doesn’t matter-good riddens, there will be someone else to take their place. Today people are worried because, finally, the terrorists have hit us where it hurts “our economy”. They tried too many bombs, but got no reaction. I can image their frustration, because even making bombs needs money, skill etc etc... But this time for once they have nailed us. I personally do not like Bal Thakrey, but he is the only one to retaliate in 1992, and Modi who ignored the post Godra incidents, supporting them indirectly, and I dare not say but instigating these incidents too. So are these the only people who care for our lives? We hate them we have abhorred them but looks like they are the only ones who love us, who actually think above money and politics and who have some self-dignity and respect.
So we need to change the system, but then again the bunch of our politicians are all from amongst us. So of course even if something has to change in this system, it is to these very politicians, to make the change, as they make the laws. So they are bound to protect their own interest, like all of us.
Today I hear a lot of you talking of war. But frankly that is what I dread even more than another terror attack. Have you stopped to think what will happen in case of war. For war you need a leader not a “rat” calling himself “Singh”. Even if there were a war what would we do? We have more enemies inside than outside. Whom will you fight? It is not in the interest of the muslims in India to annihilate pakistan. Pakistan is their only security and hope as they have been made to fear Hindus, by many of OUR politicians themselves, so they will vehemently support Pakistan, and if I were in their place I too would have. And also attacking pakistan is not in the interest of the Indian Political system. They will never eliminate this golden goose that lays these “VOTES” for them. They need Pakistan and the terrorist threat to survive.
I believe the only thing that can help us, is to cultivate in us a respect for INDIAN life. Till each one us does not believe that my brothers life is as precious as my neighbors, we will continue to die like worms. We can start by having a military rule – just something different, and changing this political system. The reason I suggest military is that they are the only once who are respected today in this country, and frankly they are the only ones who have never let us down. Let us take a lesson from our history. The Kshtriyas (military) have to rule, as they are the only ones who can and should. The educated (Brahmins) should teach, preach and help the rulers but not rule themselves. The Vaisnavs and Shudras (the rest of the junta) should do their part in the society by labor and create the wealth but never venture into ruling, as it is not their job.
If we must survive as a nation we have to experiment. As some learned man said “For forms of governance let fools contend, the one that’s best governed is the best”.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 02 Dec 2008 02:33

ramana wrote:Anyone who brings in Kashmir or Cashmere along with Mumbai terrorist attack are justifying the terror. Plain and simple. No ifs and buts.

My reply to such types is:

India is not perfect. If after an attack like that in Mumbai, you find that as people draw together in solidarity, there is renewed energy and purpose to improve India, then go for it, more power to you! But answer this one question - just how perfect does India have to be in your mind, to not merit such an attack?

My answer is: India as it is should not be attacked. If your answer is different, raise your hand now; I want to see your shameless face.

If your answer is the same, then work to prevent and mitigate a second attack. This means strengthening India's defences and neutralizing the terrorists' headquarters. Yes, social justice, non-discrimination, opportunity for all are important. But that is at best the third priority on the list. No program no matter how well implemented will stay the hands of the terrorists two weeks or two months or two years from now. If you are afraid of the possible consequences of striking at the terrorists' leaders, then at least work to strengthen the defences. It is a matter of life and death.

HariC · Post by **HariC** » 02 Dec 2008 02:36

narayanan wrote:[ because the police didn't shoot until these guys came out, raised their hands, let the police get closer, then one went for his gun- apparently strapped close to his mijjile, and shot a policeman.

The video shows then the lathi-wielding policemen and maybe aam janata bystanders rushing in and "pacifying" them.

:

i doubt it, there was a video posted sometime back, looked like it was taken by a CCTV - it clearly showed that the passenger pig got down first and started firing using the car as a sheild. this girlpig may have started firing sitting in the car - got wounded and later beaten up.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 02 Dec 2008 02:40

India urged to avoid Bush-Cheney road

India urged to avoid Bush-Cheney road

Atul Aneja

DUBAI: Sections of the Arab-supported media and academics are urging India to avoid the approach adopted by the Americans after 9/11 in the wake of the carnage in Mumbai.

An editorial in the Middle East Times also exhorted the “silent majority” of Muslims the world over to speak out against the attacks. “The Muslim community around the world needs to wake up to the fact that there is no longer room for the silence of the silent majority. It is time for the leaders of the Muslim world — and the people of the Muslim world — to become vociferous. It is time for all Muslims who feel strongly about what happened in Mumbai to speak out against the violence.”

However, slamming the U.S. war on terror, the editorial appealed to India to “avoid falling into the same trap that led to the world’s remaining superpower to adopt measures that were not in line with the democratic principles they wished to spread around the world.”

It added: “India should not enact laws similar to the USA Patriot Act, establish Guantanamo-like camps and turn Pakistan into another ‘Iraq’; even if the attacks on Mumbai do represent another 9/11.”

In his blog, Informed Comment, leading West Asia expert Juan Cole has stressed that New Delhi must not go down the “Bush-Cheney road”. He points out that it might be erroneous on New Delhi’s part to assume that the terrorists were sponsored by the Pakistani state. “Many Indian officials and much of the Indian public is falling into the Cheney fallacy. It is being argued that the terrorists fought as trained guerillas, and implied that only a state [i.e. Pakistan] could have given them that sort of training.” He adds: “But to the extent that the terrorists were professional fighters, they could have come by their training in many ways… They needn’t be state-backed.”

Dr. Cole says that in its response, India has to ensure that, “Muslims in general must not be punished for the actions of a handful of unbalanced fanatics. Down that road lies the end of civilization.” He also advocates that India should address the flaws in its security system, while keeping its civil liberties strong. A war or a right-wing shift in domestic politics would further deepen the malaise of terrorism.

British cities vulnerable like Mumbai: experts

British cities vulnerable like Mumbai: experts

Hasan Suroor

LONDON: Britain would review its anti-terror strategy in the light of the Mumbai attacks, said Home Secretary Jacqui Smith on Sunday as a former head of SAS — Britain’s elite commando service — warned that London was “unprepared” for a Mumbai-style terror atrocity describing it as a “doomsday scenario” for the British capital.

Ms. Smith told the BBC it was important for Britain to learn lessons from what had happened in Mumbai to protect its interests.

Meanwhile, the SAS officer, who was involved in dealing with the “7/7” London bombings, but cannot be named for security reasons, told The Sunday Telegraph Britain did not have the right type of counter-terror forces to cope with the sort of attack that took place in Mumbai.

“There would be many hours of chaos before the police, backed by the military counter-terrorist response teams, were in a position to contain, let alone neutralise, the terrorist threat,” he said, pointing out that while British police were “brilliant” at dealing with armed criminals they were unlikely to be as effective in fighting terrorists.

“This [a Mumbai-type atrocity] would produce the type of chaos that would defy even the most sophisticated command and control system. You would turn London into a temporary war zone very quickly,” the officer added.

His warning was echoed by other security experts who said that British cities, including London, were vulnerable to a Mumbai-type attack. “What can happen in Mumbai could just as well happen in Manchester or Birmingham... this style of attack is something we’d find very difficult to cope with,” said Patrick Mercer, chairman of the Commons counter-terrorism panel. Peter Clarke, retired head of Scotland Yard’s Counter-Terrorism Command, who was closely involved in investigations into the 7/7 bombings, said there was a real risk of something like the Mumbai attacks happening in Britain.

“It has become fashionable of late to play down the terrorist threat in Britain... Nevertheless, the fact remains that there are people in this country who would welcome the opportunity to bring a replica of the Bombay [Mumbai] attacks to London,” he warned.

AlbertPinto · Post by **AlbertPinto** » 02 Dec 2008 02:43

So Unkil sees No Evidence Pakistan Government Tied to India Attacks
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... refer=asia

Remember Kunduz from wayyyy past !!! We'll keep brainstorming (may be infighting at times too); meanwhile Unkil will pull the strings and decide what is best for us(!) and we'll grudgingly-inside but obediently-outside follow the dictat once again.

Deletion of my posts doesn't piss me off at all (after all it is done by my own folks) but this "Jo tumko ho pasand wohi kaam karenge" servile attitude and action of our leaders really really does. How many lives have we lost (or got laid down) so far doing such criminal compromises !! Don't know when we'll have real freedom. And that is the point I was trying to make so far - real freedom - (sigh).

I can still recall the GD topic in my SSB - "What unifies a nation most : a common enemy, a common language, or a common religion?". Now I think that "a nation" should have been replaced with "our political leaders". The nation otherwise seems pretty much united.

abhishek · Post by **abhishek** » 02 Dec 2008 02:54

Snehal Chitte, 9, watched her cousin Chetna take a photograph of Snehal's dead father, A. R. Chitte, at a tribute to Mumbai's policemen killed in the attacks.

-nytimes

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 02 Dec 2008 02:59

(1)

Indian Muslims Refuse to Bury Militants

The Muslim community in Mumbai says it doesn't want the gunmen who attacked Mumbai to be buried in the Muslim cemetery, on the grounds that they are not Muslims.

A spokesman for the Muslim council said, ""These terrorists are a black spot on our religion, we will very sternly protest the burial of these terrorists in our cemetery . . ."

http://www.juancole.com/2008/12/indian- ... tants.html

(2) via R.P.:
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=6368013&page=1

Since Friday, U.S. intelligence agencies have been tracking the phones and SIM cards recovered by Indian authorities from the Mumbai terrorists leading to a "treasure trove" of leads in Pakistan and several possible connections to the United States, officials say.

Officials say one of the cell phone SIM cards may have been purchased in the United States but would not provide any more details because of the ongoing nature of the investigation

blacktiger · Post by **blacktiger** » 02 Dec 2008 03:10

Another BS story in a leading rumor paper of porkistan. The Jang editor pig cries "New Delhi should be ashamed of its behaviour." http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=149925

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 02 Dec 2008 03:12

Hiten wrote:Our esteemd Chief Minister V S Achuthanandan offering Shraddhanjali to late Major Sandeep Unnikrishnan

Of course, don't try searching for the corresponding reports in the "patriotic" NDTV - too close to it's Managing Director's families political beliefs, I guess.

Shameless!!

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 02 Dec 2008 03:15

US intelligence warned India of Mumbai attack in mid-October – Report

DEBKAfile's intelligence sources report that the Indian spy agency RAW (the Research and Analysis Wing) caught wind of a terrorist threat for Mumbai in late August, three months before the event. More information was collected by RAW during September and October about the shape of the attack and its targets and passed to the American NSA.

The American ABC TV reported on Dec. 1 that Indian intelligence also intercepted a satellite phone call to a number in Pakistan known to be used by a leader of the Kashmiri Lashkar e-Taiba, which is accused of staging the Mumbai attack. This group is known for its ties to al Qaeda and Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence. This enabled the American NSA to monitor the calls terrorists made by Thuraya mobile communications system satellite phones. That is how they were able to warn their Indian counterparts in mid-October of a potential attack "from the sea against hotels and business centers in Mumbai," as ABC reported. The Taj Palace Hotel was mentioned.

DEBKAfile's sources add that the Thuraya 3 satellite system serves a population of 2.3 billion in the Middle East and Asia. Owned by Abu Dhabi, many of its clients are Muslim.

The warning was relayed by US government agencies to the Manmohan Singh government which passed it on to political officials in Mumbai, India's financial capital.

There it stopped. The warning never reached the city's security or marine authorities which might have intercepted the terrorists' boats as they landed. Indian's special counter-terror units were taken completely by surprise when the Islamists struck the city Wednesday, Nov. 26.

These revelations raise two troubling questions: Why did the Indian government fail to act to pre-empt the terrorist attack? And why did the Bush administration, when it was clear that the Indians were doing nothing, not issue a public warning about a terrorist attack in the making as it has done in former cases?

At all events, the disclosure about the communications between US and Indian intelligence refutes the comment from US Secretary of state Condoleezza Rice in London that Washington had no information linking the Mumbai attack to Pakistan.

kobe · Post by **kobe** » 02 Dec 2008 03:23

just heard on NPR "talk of the nation"

- some pakistani-american auther (don't care to remember piggy's name), she harped on "discrimination against indian muslims bla bla", my blood was boiling and ready to evaporate,

then some caller (indian lady) called in and said yes there are problems, but these are pakistani terrorists, besides there are many rich, educated indian muslims (gave example of president kalam, azimi premji etc)

the author said again thats not an excuse to hide behind to solve the problem of discrimination against muslims.. more bla bla bla...

entire country listening to this JUNK program now will think ok indian disenfrenchised muslims did it

the author-guest just did not allow them to speak about pakistan

so i turned the radio off before blood was ready to evaporate at such high temperature that it would have become plasma.

CONCLUSION:

its not just pakistani unemployed youth graduating from madrassa's are ready to bring down india and indian democracy,

its the entire spectrum of pakistani population, starting from media, intellectuals, politicians, mullahs, generals, laborers, students, the whole stinking country is a wasteland full of primitive thinking and revengeful brains. and their blood is boiling since 1971 and that is why they are happy to see terrorists doing their dirty work

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Dec 2008 03:28

Shyamd, Please do look up the news report thread. Pioneer shows that it was RAW which had intercepted the phone call after MV Kuber hijack and the sat phone was recovered on the night of the outrage. All those DEBKA reprots are Western agencies trying to outshine the locals. So dont go by their bile.

MKN kept his job because of that.

I think the US is putting out propoganda thru DEBKA to mollify th eIndina public that they are cooperating with India.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 02 Dec 2008 03:38

Sorry if this is already posted (here or in a related thread) but NY Times column by Bill Crystal is worth reading, posting in full for the record as it requires registration.

Note to N^3 - I have written to columnist ( the coulumn in NY times is no longer open for comments) about some background on Martha Nussbaum the U of C's famous professor of ethics (mentioned in "Lashkar-e-Pinocchio" - fame ) but feel free if some one wants to educate Mr Crystal more on our professor)

Here is the column
Jihad’s True Face

By WILLIAM KRISTOL

Much of the reporting from Mumbai the last few days has been informative, gripping and often moving. Some of the commentary, on the other hand, has been not just uninformative but counterinformative — if that’s a term, and if it’s not, I say it should be.

Consider first an op-ed article in Sunday’s Los Angeles Times by Martha Nussbaum, a well-known professor of law and ethics at the University of Chicago. The article was headlined “Terrorism in India has many faces.” But one face that Nussbaum fails to mention specifically is that of Lashkar-e-Taiba, the Islamic terror group originating in Pakistan that seems to have been centrally involved in the attack on Mumbai.

This is because Nussbaum’s main concern is not explaining or curbing Islamic terror. Rather, she writes that “if, as now seems likely, last week’s terrible events in Mumbai were the work of Islamic terrorists, that’s more bad news for India’s minority Muslim population.” She deplores past acts of Hindu terror against India’s Muslims. She worries about Muslim youths being rounded up on suspicion of terrorism with little or no evidence. And she notes that this is “an analogue to the current ugly phenomenon of racial profiling in the United States.”

So jihadists kill innocents in Mumbai — and Nussbaum ends up decrying racial profiling here. Is it just that liberal academics are required to include some alleged ugly American phenomenon in everything they write?

Jim Leach is also a professor, at Princeton, but he’s better known as a former moderate Republican congressman from Iowa who supported Barack Obama this year. His contribution over the weekend was to point out on Politico.com that “the Mumbai catastrophe underscores the importance of vocabulary.” This wouldn’t have been my first thought. But Leach believes it’s very important that we consider the Mumbai attack not as an act of “war” but as an act of “barbarism.”

Why? “The former implies a cause: a national or tribal or ethnic rationale that infuses a sacrificial action with some group’s view of heroism; the latter is an assault on civilized values, everyone’s. ... To the degree barbarism is a part of the human condition, Mumbai must be understood not just as an act related to a particular group but as an outbreak of pent-up irrationality that can occur anywhere, anytime. ... It may be true that the perpetrators viewed themselves as somehow justified in attacking Indians and visiting foreigners, particularly perhaps Americans, British and Israeli nationals. But a response that is the least nationalistic is likely to be the most effective.”

If, as Leach says, “it may be true” the perpetrators viewed themselves as justified in their attacks, doesn’t this mean that they did in fact have a “rationale” that “infused” their action?

But Leach doesn’t want to discuss that rationale — even though it’s not hard to find. Ten minutes of Googling will bring you to a fine article, “The Ideologies of South Asian Jihadi Groups,” from the April 2005 issue of Current Trends in Islamist Ideology. It’s by the respected journalist and diplomat Husain Haqqani, who, as it happens, is now Pakistan’s ambassador to the United States.

Lashkar-e-Taiba, Haqqani explains, is a jihadi group of Wahhabi persuasion, “backed by Saudi money and protected by Pakistani intelligence services.” He notes that “Lashkar-e-Taiba has adopted a maximalist agenda for global jihad.” Indeed, the political arm of the group has conveniently published a pamphlet, “Why Are We Waging Jihad?,” that lays out all kinds of reasons why the United States, Israel and India are “existential enemies of Islam.”

So much for Leach’s notion that the Mumbai terrorists had no “cause” or “rationale.” But Leach’s refusal to see this is in the service of persuading India not to respond in a “nationalistic” way — and of persuading the United States not to see itself primarily as standing with India against our common enemies.

But if terror groups are to be defeated, it is national governments that will have to do so. In nations like India (and the United States), governments will have to call on the patriotism of citizens to fight the terrorists. In a nation like Pakistan, the government will have to be persuaded to deal with those in their midst who are complicit. This can happen if those nations’ citizens decide they don’t want their own country to be dishonored by allegiances with terror groups. Otherwise, other nations may have to act.

Patriotism is an indispensable weapon in the defense of civilization against barbarism. That was brought home over the weekend in an article in The Times of India on Sandeep Unnikrishnan, a major in India’s National Security Guards who died fighting the terrorists at the Taj hotel. The reporter spoke with the young man’s parents as they mourned their son: “His father, dignified in the face of such a personal tragedy, was stoic, saying he was proud of his son who sacrificed his life for the country: ‘He died for the nation.’ ”

R_Kumar · Post by **R_Kumar** » 02 Dec 2008 03:38

kobe wrote:just heard on NPR "talk of the nation"

- some pakistani-american auther (don't care to remember piggy's name), she harped on "discrimination against indian muslims bla bla", my blood was boiling and ready to evaporate,

then some caller (indian lady) called in and said yes there are problems, but these are pakistani terrorists, besides there are many rich, educated indian muslims (gave example of president kalam, azimi premji etc)

the author said again thats not an excuse to hide behind to solve the problem of discrimination against muslims.. more bla bla bla...

entire country listening to this JUNK program now will think ok indian disenfrenchised muslims did it

the author-guest just did not allow them to speak about pakistan

so i turned the radio off before blood was ready to evaporate at such high temperature that it would have become plasma.

I really don't understand why you guys get so angry with foreigner? Aren't they repeating the same stuff that UPA government has been saying.

-You get angry when they talk about Muslim discrimination. But don't you remember Sachar Report that said Muslims are third class citizens in India.

- Your blood boils when they talk about Hindu terrorist. But how can you forget that your own government before Mumbai attack was saying that all the terrorist attack was done by Hindu terrorist.

- Your BP breaks all boundaries when they talk about Hindus staged drama of Train burning, but how can you forget that its your own government who has come to this conclusion.

By manufacturing the above conclusion this government has done more damages than the Jihadis.
Remember, sometime anger is good if pointed in right direction.
Bottom line - Fix your own house first.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 02 Dec 2008 03:44

ramana wrote:Shyamd, Please do look up the news report thread. Pioneer shows that it was RAW which had intercepted the phone call after MV Kuber hijack and the sat phone was recovered on the night of the outrage. All those DEBKA reprots are Western agencies trying to outshine the locals. So dont go by their bile.

MKN kept his job because of that.

I think the US is putting out propoganda thru DEBKA to mollify th eIndina public that they are cooperating with India.

interesting. I find it hard to believe that RAW was passing on info to NSA, as debka is suggesting. There wouldn't be co-operation on this level, until after a major incident like we have seen. You are right.

Wonder what the frenchy intel will claim on thursday.

But Saikat Datta reckons:

In mid-September this year, the CIA station chief in Delhi sought an urgent meeting with his counterpart in R&AW to pass on some critical inputs. This was part of an understanding that Indian and American intelligence had institutionalised in the aftermath of 9/11. From its assets in Pakistan and Afghanistan, American intelligence had come to learn that the Lashkar-e-Toiba was planning to launch a major terrorist attack in Mumbai, which would be carried out from the sea.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 02 Dec 2008 03:45

Two points friends :

(1) the possibility must be considered that the Mumbai terror attack was just one part of the overall plan, and the remnant simply sheltering with support networks within Muslim communities, which might even be giving them shelter out of kinship and religious bonds rather than real sympathy for the cause of the terrorists. They could as of now, be simply watching how admin responds and enact their plans in the immediate future - which can mean attacks again (for geo-political reasons more likely along the western strip of India from Rajasthan to Karnataka).

(2) 22nd-27th of November must be the second half of the Islamic month of Dhu'l Qadah - and as far as I can remember, this is a very significant month in the Islamic calendar. This is the first pilgrimage or Umrah that the Muslims made after the migration/hijra to Medina under Muhammad. The Muslims came on the morning of the fourth day of Dhual-Qadah, in the 7th year after migration, after the treaty of Hudaybiyyah the previous year. The entire event lasted for three days. Any pilgrimage during the month of Dhul-Qadah is named a "major pilgrimage", or just "pilgrimage" (Hajj), while pilgrimages on all other month are called "minor pilgrimage" (Umrah). The Muslims were armed even though the prevalent practice was not to carry weapons on pilgrimage. The treaty had provided for temporary abandonment and evacuation of the town of Mecca, by the Qureysh when the Muslims entered it, and was primarily meant as a show of strength by Muhammad to the Qureysh.

I find it highly significant in the context of Islamic viewpoint to mount the attack on Mumbai at this date if we consider actual terror activities described unemotionally and compare with Mumbai outcomes including that of the Jews at Nariman. A highly significant incident in this month was the destruction of the Banu Quraiza Jews by Mujhammad : After a siege lasting for 25 days, the Jews surrendered.

Sahih Bukhari records: [Original Sahih Al-Bukhari] The women and children were then separated from their husbands, others were put under the care of Abdullah, a renegade Jew. All the goods and possessions of the B. Qurayzah Jews, their camels and flocks were all brought as spoils of war. The B. Qurayzah Jewish men were handcuffed behind their backs with their women and children having already been separated. They were placed under the charge of Mohammad ibn Maslama, the assassin of Ka’b ibn Ashraf, to be sent to Medina before their execution in batches. Sourcing from Al-Waqidi, Tabari further writes: ‘The messenger of God went out into the marketplace of Medina and had trenches dug in it; then he sent for them and had them beheaded in those trenches. They were brought out to him in groups.
(The Sahi (authentic) Hadith of Abu Dawud: Book 14, Number 2665 ) Aisha, narrated that the Muslim army executed one Jewish woman who had dropped a millstone from the walls on the beseiging Muslims, and she went to her death laughing. The very old Jewish man Az-Zabir had saved the life of a Muslim convert, who requested Muhammad to save the life of Az-Zabir and his family as a return to his favor. Az-Zabir refused after hearing of the fate of his kinsmen. Abu Bakr commented “He will meet them, by God, in the Gehenna, there to dwell forever and forever.” This is the battle that gives explicit culling of all adult males including those that had begun to show pubic hair (Hadith from Sunaan Abu Dawud: Book 38, Number 4390) After executing all the adult male Jews, Muhammad sent Sa’d b. Zayd al-Ansari with some captive women and children from the B. Qurayzah to Najd to sell them in the slave market.

I think this is highly relevant as the terrorists were perhaps trying to send a message not only to non-Muslim Indians but more so to the Muslims of India who would connect the significance better than non-Musilms.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 02 Dec 2008 04:11

http://www.hindu.com/2008/12/02/stories ... 011100.htm

The party gets lots of space to spread its lies but the original news was practically blacked out with a two liner. Vague descriptions of 'overwrought scenes ...which were reported by media '... reported by media yes, but suppressed by mass murderer's yellow media.

samuel · Post by **samuel** » 02 Dec 2008 04:13

Misc. thoughts come to mind here, sorry if they appear incoherent.

--------------
Still unknown, and questions I had raised as Cyclone or Tornado was going on:

1. Where is the rest of the RDX necessary to blow up Taj and/or Oberoi?
2. Where have the remaining guys faded to?

-----------------------------------------------
1. Did the terrorists really want to blow the Taj up?
2. How did they figure that they could all walk away? (but clearly some may have, have all bodies been processed?)
3. What happened between Husseni and Kuber?
4. How many dinghies were used to ferry to shore?

-------------------------------------------------
1. Why were NSG guys without adequate maps, as is suggested?
2. The MARCOS developed situational awareness and kudos to them for managing blindness.
They passed info. on, presumably, but what additional inputs was NSG strategy based on?
3. Did they know that rooms had interior access and thus there were parallel pathways?
4. Were they aware of the rough make and strength of the walls and what type of charge might be appropriate?
5. It appears that Major Unnikrishnan was thrown back by the force of too much charge.
That pause was sufficient for him to receive fire that he could not return properly.
Were there hostages in the room in question? If not, was it possible to have isolated the terrorists
and blown walls on either side? This probably would not really work and so one wonders if the right thing
to do was to booby trap all other exits and station keep the room in question till the right strategy emerged.

6. Every sortie in this saga is exemplary. There was unwavering will to get and rip up the terrorists.
That is a great source of pride to me, but I am left with many questions that are all the more difficult
because I am no expert.

-----------------------------
1. What, if we had a choice of two or three actions, would you pick to undertake in the next week?

Kedar · Post by **Kedar** » 02 Dec 2008 04:27

A_Gupta wrote:(1)
Indian Muslims Refuse to Bury Militants

The Muslim community in Mumbai says it doesn't want the gunmen who attacked Mumbai to be buried in the Muslim cemetery, on the grounds that they are not Muslims.

A spokesman for the Muslim council said, ""These terrorists are a black spot on our religion, we will very sternly protest the burial of these terrorists in our cemetery . . ."
http://www.juancole.com/2008/12/indian- ... tants.html

First of all kudos to the Muslim community for their actions in refusing to take in the pigs.

EDITED

vkthakur · Post by **vkthakur** » 02 Dec 2008 04:41

I made the post regarding dangerous Times Now reporting because an earlier post touched on the subject, not because I wanted to promote my blog.
I don't need Bharat Rakshak to promote my blog. The blog is well read and respected. The reason why I gave my name and blog url was to identify myself, something that most people don't have the courage to do. Yes, I wrote a similar entry on my own blog. Why should anyone have a problem with that? Those words were mine, those thoughts are mine. I should be able to post the entry on any blog or forum where it is germane to the discussion.
3. I have been bashed and called names on Bharat Rakshak for opinions that I have expressed on my blog, because they were not palatable to the DRDO establishment, where a lot of your members come from.

In summary all the reasons cited for deleting my post are bogus.

If your concerns were genuine, my site URL could have been remove. The part of the post considered inflammatory could have been removed.

I will know the real reason for editing my post by seeing how you handle this post defending my deleted post.

Vijainder K Thakur (Please remove the name if you construe it as self promotion)

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 02 Dec 2008 04:42

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/02/world ... ml?_r=1&hp

It seems that the terrorists had booby trapped some of the dead bodies / wounded hostages with grenades that were set to explode when the bodies were moved

Kedar · Post by **Kedar** » 02 Dec 2008 04:49

kobe wrote:just heard on NPR "talk of the nation"

- some pakistani-american auther (don't care to remember piggy's name), she harped on "discrimination against indian muslims bla bla", my blood was boiling and ready to evaporate,

then some caller (indian lady) called in and said yes there are problems, but these are pakistani terrorists, besides there are many rich, educated indian muslims (gave example of president kalam, azimi premji etc)

the author said again thats not an excuse to hide behind to solve the problem of discrimination against muslims.. more bla bla bla...

entire country listening to this JUNK program now will think ok indian disenfrenchised muslims did it

the author-guest just did not allow them to speak about pakistan

so i turned the radio off before blood was ready to evaporate at such high temperature that it would have become plasma.

CONCLUSION:

its not just pakistani unemployed youth graduating from madrassa's are ready to bring down india and indian democracy,

its the entire spectrum of pakistani population, starting from media, intellectuals, politicians, mullahs, generals, laborers, students, the whole stinking country is a wasteland full of primitive thinking and revengeful brains. and their blood is boiling since 1971 and that is why they are happy to see terrorists doing their dirty work

Was that Asra Nomani by any chance? Unfortunately she is an Indian but more a wannabe-RAPE. Another "secular, liberal Muslim woman" being promoted by the US government.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 02 Dec 2008 04:50

vkthakur wrote:I made the post .... how you handle this post defending my deleted post.

Vijainder K Thakur (Please remove the name if you construe it as self promotion)

This is neither the time nor the place about your ego. Post garbage, and you will receive the same accolade our garden variety postor receives. If you had any sense of belonging to the institutions you claim to come from, you wouldn't be bringing up your bruised ego now.

See some sense, and focus on what is important please.

{Mahdi-e-Postediti paid a vijit hiyar}

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 02 Dec 2008 04:57

Kedar wrote:Was that Asra Nomani by any chance? Unfortunately she is an Indian but more a wannabe-RAPE. Another "secular, liberal Muslim woman" being promoted by the US government.

I did leave a very critical comment on her stupid LA Times story.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 02 Dec 2008 05:05

vkthakur wrote:Yes, I wrote a similar entry on my own blog. Why should anyone have a problem with that? Those words were mine, those thoughts are mine. I should be able to post the entry on any blog or forum where it is germane to the discussion.

Please re-read my reasons for deleting your cross-posted blog entry. We do not encourage people advertising their own blogs or commercial sites here. Only your post was deleted because it was a message specifically to you to not do so.

vkthakur wrote:I have been bashed and called names on Bharat Rakshak for opinions that I have expressed on my blog, because they were not palatable to the DRDO establishment, where a lot of your members come from.

No ad hominem attacks on members, please. If you have an issue with a particular member's post, please report the post using the 'Report this post' button at the bottom of the post, and let the moderators deal with it.

You have a grand total of two posts here, one of which was against posting guidelines and the other calls members names. I suggest you shape up or ship out.

Other forum members: please do not get into personal debates with vkthakur and derail this thread. Thanks.

munna · Post by **munna** » 02 Dec 2008 05:06

{Munnaji, maaph keejiye, bas. Per Suraj above, peace and nonviolence pls.... Mahdi-e-jhapad-khatami}

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 02 Dec 2008 05:24

I have been bashed and called names on Bharat Rakshak for opinions that I have expressed on my blog, because they were not palatable to the DRDO establishment, where a lot of your members come from

The present bashing seems to be a reaction to your equating Pakistani terrorists with those from other nations.

Take the 'Real IRA'. These are vicious terrorists. Some are based in the Irish Republic and strike across the border into English-Administered-Ireland. They have arms dumps in the Irish Republic.

Does the UK Government blame Ireland? Does it threaten to attack after a strike?

No. Because the Real IRA does not enjoy the support of the Irish state. The Irish Army does not train them at their facilities. It does not facilitate their ingress into English occupied territory. Their leaders do not run around Ireland in the open. They do not engage in fund-raising openly. They are not supported by the Irish elite. The Irish Police and Courts deal harshly with them when they are found. Irish embassies are not used for Real IRA operations.

That is the essential difference between Pakistani terrorists and others.

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 02 Dec 2008 05:41

Yes it was Asra Nomani. I am not sure why people rush to give gyaan at the drop of a hat.
It must stem from some deep insecurity. Sanjay I am enjoying very much your thoughtful
insights. What is the role of the Mumbai Port trust, do they have their own security, how
does it interact with the Navy and Coast Guard?

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 02 Dec 2008 05:45

narayanan wrote:I saw a Korean newspaper the other day. The front page had this very large photo which you can see posted in the photos thread:

A policeman walked with an elderly man after one attack at a railway station.

That's it. This picture, IMO, is the most poignant of the whole operation. The Koreans focused on what is really important.

Two pictures posted by Swamy G in his thread, that say a lot about how India and Indians cope with emergencies:

The poor, poor kid with blood all over, being given water by the kind cop is something that cannot be described in words by any one in the world, who is fortunate to be a parent

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 02 Dec 2008 05:47

Can someone post a link to Swamy G's picture need it for a jhapad in some other forum.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 02 Dec 2008 06:09

vsunder wrote:Can someone post a link to Swamy G's picture need it for a jhapad in some other forum.

vsunder saar,

kindly right click on the said images and goto 'properties' or 'copy link location' and you have it.

lakshmikanth · Post by **lakshmikanth** » 02 Dec 2008 06:15

Can we collect the IP addresses that accessed the forums while the attacks were on?

Just filter them and see where they came from. Probably some are from TSP.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 02 Dec 2008 06:21

Sleepy village baffled by link to captured terrorist

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 02 Dec 2008 06:27

Mumbai becomes the world's learning ground

Even before Maharashtra police visited Leopold Cafe, the popular watering hole where the terror attacks started, a secret Australian service police agency was there. Owner of the Colaba cafe Farhang Jehani confirmed that a police agency from Australia questioned him about Wednesday night's attacks and examined the site.

bahdada · Post by **bahdada** » 02 Dec 2008 06:33

Not sure if anyone posted this yet. A Mobile video of Mumbaikers overpowering the short shit paki Kasam in Marine drive.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/0 ... 47558.html

God bless those UNARMED officers who confronted them knowing full well they might be armed. I feel so much anger and helplessness.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 02 Dec 2008 06:37

The terrorist pig must have meant his ancestors were from Faridkot. He could be from Karachi or London. Or he could have been drugged and brainwashed to sing whatever his terrorist handlers want him to say if caught.

In Faridkot, no one appeared to be able to speak much English; most could only converse in a dialect of the provincial language. None of the villagers recognised the face in the photograph.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 02 Dec 2008 06:39

A story of survival, sacrifice and heroism from the heart...some of our 'friends' perhaps could learn bit of humility from this gentleman.

Heroes At The Taj

Michael Pollack, 12.01.08, 07:40 PM EST
After a terrifying day, one eyewitness thanks his saviors.

My story begins innocuously, with a dinner reservation in a world-class hotel. It ends 12 hours later after the Indian army freed us.

My point is not to sensationalize events. It is to express my gratitude and pay tribute to the staff of the Taj Mahal Hotel in Mumbai, who sacrificed their lives so that we could survive. They, along with the Indian army, are the true heroes that emerged from this tragedy.

My wife, Anjali, and I were married in the Taj's Crystal Ballroom. Her parents were married there, too, and so were Shiv and Reshma, the couple with whom we had dinner plans. In fact, my wife and Reshma, both Bombay girls, grew up hanging out and partying the night away there and at the Oberoi Hotel, another terrorist target.

The four of us arrived at the Taj around 9:30 p.m. for dinner at the Golden Dragon, one of the better Chinese restaurants in Mumbai. We were a little early, and our table wasn't ready. So we walked next door to the Harbor Bar and had barely begun to enjoy our beers when the host told us our table was ready. We decided to stay and finish our drinks.

Thirty seconds later, we heard what sounded like a heavy tray smashing to the ground. This was followed by 20 or 30 similar sounds and then absolute silence. We crouched behind a table just feet away from what we now knew were gunmen. Terrorists had stormed the lobby and were firing indiscriminately.

We tried to break the glass window in front of us with a chair, but it wouldn't budge. The Harbour Bar's hostess, who had remained at her post, motioned to us that it was safe to make a run for the stairwell. She mentioned, in passing, that there was a dead body right outside in the corridor. We believe this courageous woman was murdered after we ran away.

(We later learned that minutes after we climbed the stairs, terrorists came into the Harbour Bar, shot everyone who was there and executed those next door at the Golden Dragon. The staff there was equally brave, locking their patrons into a basement wine cellar to protect them. But the terrorists managed to break through and lob in grenades that killed everyone in the basement.)

We took refuge in the small office of the kitchen of another restaurant, Wasabi, on the second floor. Its chef and staff served the four of us food and drink and even apologized for the inconvenience we were suffering.

Through text messaging, e-mail on BlackBerrys and a small TV in the office, we realized the full extent of the terrorist attack on Mumbai. We figured we were in a secure place for the moment. There was also no way out.

At around 11:30 p.m., the kitchen went silent. We took a massive wooden table and pushed it up against the door, turned off all the lights and hid. All of the kitchen workers remained outside; not one staff member had run.

The terrorists repeatedly slammed against our door. We heard them ask the chef in Hindi if anyone was inside the office. He responded calmly: "No one is in there. It's empty." That is the second time the Taj staff saved our lives.

After about 20 minutes, other staff members escorted us down a corridor to an area called The Chambers, a members-only area of the hotel. There were about 250 people in six rooms. Inside, the staff was serving sandwiches and alcohol. People were nervous, but cautiously optimistic. We were told The Chambers was the safest place we could be because the army was now guarding its two entrances and the streets were still dangerous. There had been attacks at a major railway station and a hospital.

But then, a member of parliament phoned (who is the bufoon? who were the parliamentarian holed up there? we need to find out the names and feed to press, Arnab and co.)into a live newscast and let the world know that hundreds of people--including CEOs, foreigners and members of parliament--were "secure and safe in The Chambers together."
Adding to the escalating tension and chaos was the fact that, via text and cellphone, we knew that the dome of the Taj was on fire and that it could move downward.

At around 2 a.m., the staff attempted an evacuation. We all lined up to head down a dark fire escape exit. But after five minutes, grenade blasts and automatic weapon fire pierced the air. A mad stampede ensued to get out of the stairwell and take cover back inside The Chambers.

After that near-miss, my wife and I decided we should hide in different rooms. While we hoped to be together at the end, our primary obligation was to our children. We wanted to keep one parent alive. Because I am American and my wife is Indian, and news reports said the terrorists were targeting U.S. and U.K. nationals, I believed I would further endanger her life if we were together in a hostage situation.

So when we ran back to The Chambers I hid in a toilet stall with a floor-to-ceiling door and my wife stayed with our friends, who fled to a large room across the hall.

For the next seven hours, I lay in the fetal position, keeping in touch with Anjali via BlackBerry. I was joined in the stall by Joe, a Nigerian national with a U.S. green card. I managed to get in touch with the FBI, and several agents gave me status updates throughout the night.

I cannot even begin to explain the level of adrenaline running through my system at this point. It was this hyper-aware state where every sound, every smell, every piece of information was ultra-acute, analyzed and processed so that we could make the best decisions and maximize the odds of survival.

Was the fire above us life-threatening? What floor was it on? Were the commandos near us, or were they terrorists? Why is it so quiet? Did the commandos survive? If the terrorists come into the bathroom and to the door, when they fire in, how can I make my body as small as possible? If Joe gets killed before me in this situation, how can I throw his body on mine to barricade the door? If the Indian commandos liberate the rest in the other room, how will they know where I am? Do the terrorists have suicide vests? Will the roof stand? How can I make sure the FBI knows where Anjali and I are? When is it safe to stand up and attempt to urinate?

Meanwhile, Anjali and the others were across the corridor in a mass of people lying on the floor and clinging to each other. People barely moved for seven hours, and for the last three hours they felt it was too unsafe to even text. While I was tucked behind a couple walls of marble and granite in my toilet stall, she was feet from bullets flying back and forth. After our failed evacuation, most of the people in the fire escape stairwell and many staff members who attempted to protect the guests were shot and killed.

The 10 minutes around 2:30 a.m. were the most frightening. Rather than the back-and-forth of gunfire, we just heard single, punctuated shots. We later learned that the terrorists went along a different corridor of The Chambers, room by room, and systematically executed everyone: women, elderly, Muslims, Hindus, foreigners. A group huddled next to Anjali was devout Bori Muslims who would have been slaughtered just like everyone else, had the terrorists gone into their room. Everyone was in deep prayer and most, Anjali included, had accepted that their lives were likely over. It was terrorism in its purest form. No one was spared.

The next five hours were filled with the sounds of an intense grenade/gun battle between the Indian commandos and the terrorists. It was fought in darkness; each side was trying to outflank the other.

By the time dawn broke, the commandos had successfully secured our corridor. A young commando led out the people packed into Anjali's room. When one woman asked whether it was safe to leave, the commando replied: "Don't worry, you have nothing to fear. The first bullets have to go through me."
The corridor was laced with broken glass and bullet casings. Every table was turned over or destroyed. The ceilings and walls were littered with hundreds of bullet holes. Blood stains were everywhere, though, fortunately, there were no dead bodies to be seen.

A few minutes after Anjali had vacated, Joe and I peeked out of our stall. We saw multiple commandos and smiled widely. I had lost my right shoe while sprinting to the toilet so I grabbed a sheet from the floor, wrapped it around my foot and proceeded to walk over the debris to the hotel lobby.

Anjali and I embraced for the first time in seven hours in the Taj's ground floor entrance. I didn't know whether she was dead or injured because we hadn't been able to text for the past three hours.

I wanted to take a picture of us on my BlackBerry, but Anjali wanted us to get out of there before doing anything.

She was right--our ordeal wasn't completely over. A large bus pulled up in front of the Taj to collect us and, just about as it was fully loaded, gunfire erupted again. The terrorists were still alive and firing automatic weapons at the bus. Anjali was the last to get on the bus, and she eventually escaped in our friend's car. I ducked under some concrete barriers for cover and wound up the subject of photos that were later splashed across the media. Shortly thereafter, an ambulance came and drove a few of us to safety. An hour later, Anjali and I were again reunited at her parents' home. Our Thanksgiving had just gained a lot more meaning.

Some may say our survival was due to random luck, others might credit divine intervention. But 72 hours removed from these events, I can assure you only one thing: Far fewer people would have survived if it weren't for the extreme selflessness shown by the Taj staff, who organized us, catered to us and then, in the end, literally died for us.

They complemented the extreme bravery and courage of the Indian commandos, who, in a pitch-black setting and unfamiliar, tightly packed terrain, valiantly held the terrorists at bay.

It is also amazing that, out of our entire group, not one person screamed or panicked. There was an eerie but quiet calm that pervaded--one more thing that got us all out alive. Even people in adjacent rooms, who were being executed, kept silent.

It is much easier to destroy than to build, yet somehow humanity has managed to build far more than it has ever destroyed. Likewise, in a period of crisis, it is much easier to find faults and failings rather than to celebrate the good deeds. It is now time to commemorate our heroes.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 02 Dec 2008 06:40

Vsunder, the Mumbai Port has its own security but I believe it has requested CISF cover. There is supposed to be liasion with the Coast Guard and the Navy, but coordination is not our strong point.

Perhaps we need to revive the police weapons discussion because this incident has raised some very serious issues.