Indian Response to Terrorism

Shivani · Post by **Shivani** » 02 Dec 2008 16:21

No military action against Pak: Pranab Mukherjee

IBNLive.com wrote:

New Delhi: India on Tuesday sought to allay fears about an armed conflict with Pakistan, saying military action is not being considered and that it will wait for Islamabad to respond to its demand for action against terror groups and individuals operating out of the neighbouring country.

"What will be done, time will show and you will come to know," External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee told reporters when referred to US President-elect Barack Obama's suggestion that India has a "right to protect" itself.

When asked whether it could mean military action, Mukherjee said "Nobody is talking about military action."

The comment is significant as there are fears in the US as also in Pakistan about India resorting to military action in the wake of Mumbai terror attacks carried out by "elements" based in Pakistan.

He said India "will await" Pakistan's response to a demarche (protest note) issued to it demanding action against terrorist groups and individuals operating out of that country and handing over of 20 fugitive terrorists.

Pakistan's High Commissioner to India Shahid Malik was summoned by the Ministry of External Affairs yesterday and issued a demarche.

"Now, we have in our demarche asked (for) the arrest and handover of those persons who are settled in Pakistan and who are fugitives of Indian law," Mukherjee said on the sidelines of a function to inaugurate the India-Arab Forum.

India had already handed over to Pakistan a list of 20 terrorists, including Lashkar-e-Taiba chief Hafiz Mohammad and Jaish-e-Mohammad chief Masood Azhar besides Dawood Ibrahim, who are based in that country and are suspected to be behind terror attacks in India.

"There are lists of about 20 persons. (These) lists are sometimes altered and this exercise is going on and we have renewed it in our demarche," Mukherjee said.

Investigations into the three-day Mumbai terror strikes have shown that the plan to carry out the attacks was hatched in Pakistan, suspectedly by Lashkar-e-Toiba and the perpetrators of the ghastly act came from Karachi by ships and boats.

Islamabad has been in a denial mode but India says it has hard evidence to show Pakistani link.

Angry at the Mumbai attacks, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has said that India will not tolerate use of territories by its neighbours for launching attacks in this country and that there will be a "cost" to it.

The US is also building pressure on Pakistan, with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice saying Islamabad must "follow evidence wherever it leads" and lend "absolute" and "transparent" cooperation to New Delhi in probe into the Mumbai terror strikes.

On the solidarity shown by the world leaders, including the US President-elect, with India in the aftermath of the Mumbai strikes, the External Affairs Minister said: "We appreciate the responses which we have received from all over the world, including Obama."

sunnyP · Post by **sunnyP** » 02 Dec 2008 16:23

I think this should be in the humour section -

Pak proposes joint terror probe for Mumbai attacks

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/mu ... &type=News

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 02 Dec 2008 16:24

Pakistan came close to being branded by the US as a Terrorism Sponsoring State, twice. One was in 1998 which Albright shot down, The other was in circa 1992, as Hussain Haqqani, the current Pakistani ambassador recalls in his book.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 02 Dec 2008 16:27

"If India Attacks, Several Pakistans Will Be Created Within India"

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 02 Dec 2008 16:29

there have been no statements from any army or military type so far in pakistan, am i right?
so far we have

1. civilian gov't crying itself hoarse but really saying - please don't slap us
2. RAPE's going overboard with their customary denial and 'martians did it...' scenarios
3. al-qaeda types rejoicing on striking terror at the kaffirs

so, what do we have here? a split right down the middle of pakland now tearing itself asunder? army and jehadis in control and heading for full on khilafat whilst RAPEs and others wait for the butcher's knife in terror? I wonder if now is the time that the RAPE are going through their 'with the jehadis or against them/my country right or wrong' moment of truth?

the consequences will be interesting

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 02 Dec 2008 16:29

Pakistan will have to pay a heavy price

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 02 Dec 2008 16:30

sunnyP wrote:I think this should be in the humour section -

Pak proposes joint terror probe for Mumbai attacks

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/mu ... &type=News

The sad thing is that there is more than 50% chance that MMS is going to accept it.

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 02 Dec 2008 16:45

The problem for Pakis is that if they hand over even one scum to India, then shit-stan will crumble. One can watch the years of brainwashing in rabid Paki journalists. I can't think of even one sane Paki comment. (I know it is oxymoron)

The good news is that with this attitude, the whole shit is going down the toilet bowl rapidly.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Dec 2008 16:48

The Americans should be squarely told,that Kashmir is none of their F**ng business and any attempt to meddle in India's affairs will have a dramatic effect upon Indo-US relations.The Kickleighter agreement on military cooperation should be kicked into the Indian Ocean.Hothing less than a halt to US arms and economic aid to pak will do,as Pak cannot be guaranteed to hand over the terrorists like Dawood and the ISI gang at all.The US must be shown to be tough on "rogue states" like pak.

In the meantime,we must work overdrive to plan massive covert ops apart from overt ops like the ones being used by the US in the FATA areas.Air strikes of terrorist camps is and must be carried out as the minimum counter-terror action that India must show to the world for pak's perfidy.The eliimnation/assassination of all Paki pigs who planned the terror outrage is essential to teach the rogue state a lesson it will never forget.While the use of nukes is an absolute last resort,we cannot rule out tyerror attacks against our nuclear facilities and the use of Paki nukes by the Islamist terror appratus.In the awful event of this happening,a full scale nuclear attack against Pak has to be planned for,for which the nation has to have enough dispersed nukes to deal with both Pak and China.We have had another terror attack today in Assam,the attacks will keep coming and at some point,the fuse must be lit.

The most opportune overt remedy is the total destruction of the paki navy and the mining of all paki ports and/or accompanied by a naval blockade.The US may try and intervene,therefore the action must be sudden and swift.Everey naval vessel possible should be modified to carry SSMs,from Urans to Brahmos,including some merchant ships,so that a massive attack using hundreds of missiles can devastate Karachi and sink as much of the Paki navy .The logistic effort to accomplish this will be a massive herculean task,but it should begin right away as Pak's teror campaign comtinues.

PS:As for rolling heads,the usual scapegoats have sacrificed thmeselves rather unwillingly thopugh! The chief Chowkidar has been replaced by the Chief Accountant,but the guard dogs are still leashed.When will it be time to "Cry 'Havoc', and Let slip the dogs of war"?

PS:There must be huge cheering in the ISI pigsty,thanks to Pranab MUkherjee's statement that NO military action is being planned.His cry of "Uncle (Sam)",is truly despicable.He should also pack his bags for the dustbin of history to join his dear little lamented colleague, "Chowkidar" Patil.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 02 Dec 2008 16:57

Let us talk about the Indo-Pak Peace Process.

The Pakistanis are disenchanted, and say, "India has not been able to give Kashmir to us on a platter. So what is the use of peace process."

The Indians are pissed, because terrorism won't stop.

Any peace process, which can come crashing down because of a terror attack, which are being ordered ever more frequently, is not a durable quantity, and neither would it come close to fulfilling the expectations of either side. So it deserves a burial, long overdue.

So what is durable? A break-up of Pakistan is the only durable solution. The sooner one sees it, the more durable will be peace.

Disclaimer: This post has been especially cooked for the candle kissing crowd.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 02 Dec 2008 17:12

Vocabulary suggestions for GoI's official position:

o “Pakistan is also a victim of terror.” should read “Pakistani civil society (RAPEs & Abduls) is also a victim of terror.”

o The terror is perpetuated by the Pakistani Establishment, the true power brokers in Pakistan, who is our common enemy.

o The Pakistani State (constitution, parliament, civilian government, civilian bureaucracy) exists only in name only, but have no power, and hence need not be acknowledged any further as a real entity or dialogue partner.

o The Pakistani Establishment needs to be fought with all means.

o Ooops for the unavoidable collateral damage, but what are a few shaheeds, in the service of good.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 02 Dec 2008 17:16

A Sharma wrote:Pakistan will have to pay a heavy price

Cliché

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 02 Dec 2008 17:16

The only hope for political revival of UPA is to do some action. They lost all kinds of plots and are bound to lose the next general election. I believe that they will bring LeT and JeM chiefs before elections and call BJP is just hot air. That is the only thing left to checkmate the main opposition. Otherwise goodbye to them by Indian electorate.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 02 Dec 2008 17:39

War with Porkistan is not going to achieve anything worthwhile for India. It's not even going to destroy their terror infrastructure one bit.

India has to put in clear demands that are doable to Pakistan and enforcable by the international community.

These demands like for example asking for LeT heads/ Dawood for a start.

Sustained pressure on curbing PA and ISI powers.

Parallely it has become obvious that India must work long term on:

1. Denuking Pakistan.

2. Splitting it into smaller entities.

Sudip · Post by **Sudip** » 02 Dec 2008 17:42

1) Pranab Mukherjee is giving confusing indications.
2) We all know assistance by Pakistan is a joke.
3) Even if they assisted, Dawood Ibrahim and Co. might have already left/preparing to leave their current hideouts for some unknown country using one of their many passports
4) Im not sure about the feasability of a full fledged war given the slump in world economy and its impact on our own economy, the just concluded nuclear deal and many many more issues.

So is there a chance that covert operation by indian commando units to nab Dawood and Co. would be underway? It sounds like a distant dream but any comments on this by experts?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 02 Dec 2008 17:46

There are many voices around, especially American voices, who are saying that India should not do anything which can weaken the position of Zardari in Pakistan. The question is why would that be in Indian interest?

Americans need Zardari to give US-PA cooperation some constitutional and popular cover to fight the Taliban in Afghanistan and FATA. Fine. But what does India need Zardari for? Why would a military dictator in Pakistan be bad for India?

We were better off with a military dictator, unpopular in Pakistan, i.e. a Musharraf after 9th March, 2007 and detested by the world, i.e. a Musharraf before 11th September, 2001. Zardari Government simply shields the true power brokers in Pakistan from Indian ire. The whole 'Pakistan is also a victim' nonsense came afterward. Indian Government who likes to conduct all its business through official channels with foreign governments, has allowed itself to walk into a trap of its own making. At least when dealing with Musharraf, Indian Government knew, that it is dealing with one of the major power brokers in Pakistan. Now we have no line of communication with them at all.

It is absolutely in India's interest, that this thin veneer of civilian lipstick on Pakistan's face, be wiped off, through a bloody coup if possible. Zardari's presence sheaths Pakistani Establishment from a strong response to Pakistani terrorism and nuclear rogueness. Zardari must go!

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 02 Dec 2008 17:48

arunabh wrote:
So is there a chance that covert operation by indian commando units to nab Dawood and Co. would be underway? It sounds like a distant dream but any comments on this by experts?

one word: brahmos

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 02 Dec 2008 17:51

harbans wrote:War with Porkistan is not going to achieve anything worthwhile for India. It's not even going to destroy their terror infrastructure one bit.

India has to put in clear demands that are doable to Pakistan and enforcable by the international community.

These demands like for example asking for LeT heads/ Dawood for a start.

Sustained pressure on curbing PA and ISI powers.

Parallely it has become obvious that India must work long term on:

1. Denuking Pakistan.

2. Splitting it into smaller entities.

Hanbans Ji,

As you see, the question of what is doable by Pakistan is understood to be what is doable by the Zardari 'Government'. If the Zardari Government was not there, then the question would be what is doable by the Pakistani Establishment, and that could be a lot more.

Sudip · Post by **Sudip** » 02 Dec 2008 17:54

Lalmohan wrote:
arunabh wrote:
So is there a chance that covert operation by indian commando units to nab Dawood and Co. would be underway? It sounds like a distant dream but any comments on this by experts?
one word: brahmos

yes but thats possible if you are dead sure he is in that house at that time. If not then everybody sees india fired a missile and that would be sufficient to start the war. Isnt there a need for a team to land behind enemy lines immediately, track and lock him in their sight and then undertake the operation.
Also one more point. Every single minute is critical now, as I am sure those responsible would be busy elimintaing all traces including their own before india/US reach there which further enhances the need for an immediate surprise covert human infiltration.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 02 Dec 2008 18:00

Rajesh ji i am very well aware of how limited Zardari's 'doability' is. But on this i am with the US POV. With Zardari. There have been attempts now and then by Z to break ISI and PA hold. These are encouraging options. If you notice the West is seeing things in Pakistan pretty similar to how we are viewing things.

This is really the time to get 2 or 3 key LeT people along with Dawood. Thats all. Not a list of 20. That will fall flat. Give a small, legitimate list to Gilani/ Zardari Ask them to act. Let them battle it out with PA/ ISI. Put up sustained pressure on them. Tell the US and the world, we're not going to compromise here till Pak delivers on these 3-4 people. That is their test. US knows the world knows that Dawood and Saeed are in Pak. Let them deny.

But START with something doable for them. Something which will have impact. Which will put pressure on the ISI and PA. This is what is needed at the moment. And this is BIG.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 02 Dec 2008 18:01

a landed SF team would be killed sooner rather than later. we don't do suicide as standard operating procedure - we are civilized.

i personally don't care if the house receiving tender love from brahmos is empty or has two goat lovers tending to their hobbies - the slap on the echh and dee is far more significant than a specific killing

meanwhile - am begining to think that miss piggy has been singing a deliberate tune to try and reduce his credibility and therefore enhance plausible deniability; this has been well planned

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 02 Dec 2008 18:06

I think we need to hit infra rather than trying to get Dawood and Co using Missiles. Even with Predator drones and real-time info, US has troubles getting the guys.
A refinery can't move around and it is very good Visual after it is hit...

Sudip · Post by **Sudip** » 02 Dec 2008 18:08

[quote="Lalmohan"]a landed SF team would be killed sooner rather than later. we don't do suicide as standard operating procedure - we are civilized.

why do you think so? It has been done many times by americans and israelis. Also those 15 terrorists could come to a city like bombay which is supposedly more developed than those pigholes then why cant our SF go with their awesome training and support.
Also killing them alive is important because, if we kill them there, their sons again rise and do the same shit, but if we catch the boss, they reveal their hideouts and then we take them out one by one using brahmos as u please

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 02 Dec 2008 18:08

harbansji - whilst i agree with you in principle - as singha pointed out, without the 101st Airborne standing next to him, zardari has a snowballs's chance in hell of taking on the ISI and army. i can't even imagine how he managed to get the ISI to dismantle the political wing - if indeed that is what has actually happened

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 02 Dec 2008 18:10

I would do a Brahmos with a plausible deniablity -- i.e. paint it green and fire from Afg. ideally I would be flying a Su to do this (I know no Su with Brahmos yet). Failing that I will take a warship close to Karachi and try the same stunt. In each case I would later say.. "wasn't me"; we will see if two can play this game.

The question is not whether any one can prove whether we did it; we will do and deny and force the Paki's to move into a all out war if they have the balls.

Sree · Post by **Sree** » 02 Dec 2008 18:12

milindc wrote:I think we need to hit infra rather than trying to get Dawood and Co using Missiles. ... A refinery can't move around and it is very good Visual after it is hit...

I think that after 1971, perhaps because of the spectacular success of our strikes on the Attock oil refinery, there was some kind of understanding or agreement between India and Pakistan that we would not strike "economic" targets (what would now be called infrastructure). No idea if still considered to be in force; if so how enforceable; how seriously we take it - just something I recall reading.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 02 Dec 2008 18:13

please be realistic - a commando raid into the outskirts of karachi to pin point these leaders and secure them is simply impractical

btw - there are rogue elements in mumbai NCC naval wing who might commandeer a Delhi class destroyer and launch brahmos's at karachi installations. we cannot be held responsible for everyone in India who might have a different point of view

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 02 Dec 2008 18:15

harbans ji,

I see your point. Let us see if this salami-cutting strategy can work. Perhaps if Zardari is really able to deliver, and a precedence is set, one can always ask for more. Open the tin-can a little bit at a time.

The question is, whether by giving him a list of 19 names, we have set him up to fail. If that is the case, I would personally welcome that Zardari becomes a casualty of tussle with the ISI. I would rather have the true face of Pakistan being exposed to the whole world, so the world, including USA, and foremost India, can truly put pressure on the Pakistani Establishment, than this Zardari Lipstick, which nobody seems to be in a mood to wipe off, inadvertently appeasing the terrorists.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 02 Dec 2008 18:23

btw - there are rogue elements in mumbai NCC naval wing who might commandeer a Delhi class destroyer and launch brahmos's at karachi installations. we cannot be held responsible for everyone in India who might have a different point of view

True, so true, venerated Mullah. Which brings up a related issue, which only those who have studied deeply at the LMU can think up.

The balance of terror here is tilted in the ISI's favor. Das Berjant Zardari is more terrified of the ISI and Pak Army HQ, than he is of the entire Rest of Duniya team. And Our Fearless and Inspiring Leader MMS and his equally brave Videsa Karya Mantri are doing everything to assuage whatever little fear he has of the R.O.D. And whom have they appointed as Home Minister? The great Law and Order Specialist P.Chidambaram?

What next? Arundhati Roy as Defence Minister? Oooohh!! SCARY!

The way to change this, is indeed to reveal to the Pakistani and Duniya media these unconfirmed rumors from usually reliable sources who usually wish to remain usually anonymous, of the suspected rogue elements that may be planning to take over Prithvi No. 1,324,487, which as we know, is targeted at Zardari's kursi. And even more scary, the rumors of unrest at the silo where Agni No. 666 is kept, targeted at Zardari's real estate holdings in Lahore.

Zardari has to realize that the ISI/PakHQ are not the ones to fear.

{EDITED: PLS NOTE: ANYTHING POSTED ON "RESPONSE" B4 & INCL. THIS ONE ON THE MUMBAI-IV THREAD HAS BEEN MOVED HERE - PLS C ABOVE, THX - THE MAHDI}

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 02 Dec 2008 18:23

Let us see if this salami-cutting strategy can work. Perhaps if Zardari is really able to deliver, and a precedence is set, one can always ask for more. Open the tin-can a little bit at a time.

Exactly!! We have a great opportunity NOW to do that FIRST step. Because the world wants our reaction tempered and also Pakistan to walk the talk. This is an opportunity that we never had. Not even in 2002.

If Z manages to even give ONE guy. We've opened the can/ door whatever. We've got a wedge in their security establishment. If we can do that we will have for the first time in 60 years put their security apparatus under some Indian sovereign will. This is a very big step. It must be attempted and success must be focussed on by the establishment in a sustained way.

Remember US has already a wedge in their security establishment. Kiyani and Pasha are pawns. They are hitting out in the only manner they can against India by these acts. They cannot launch a coup now. It's time to pressure them to loosen their strings with D and LeT honcho's. This will work.

We've already lost advantage by giving 20 names. Trust me they'll come out with the Jaish guy Azhar, saying he was in an Indian jail for several years without trial. And our diplomats cannot have an answer to that. And this you will see on your TV screens coming soon. So you won't get 20, and so you delegitimize your 2 or 3 much needed ones at the moment too. Bad moves.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 02 Dec 2008 18:29

RajeshA wrote: The whole 'Pakistan is also a victim' nonsense came afterward. Indian Government who likes to conduct all its business through official channels with foreign governments, has allowed itself to walk into a trap of its own making. At least when dealing with Musharraf, Indian Government knew, that it is dealing with one of the major power brokers in Pakistan. Now we have no line of communication with them at all.!

Dear RajeshA; I think you are forgetting this

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/200 ... 080800.htm

No sireee; the problem or solution is not the head of Pakistan but.....

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 02 Dec 2008 18:32

Rajesh, setting up one to fail is bad policy. You've achieved nothing. Your idea is to weaken the power of the PA/ ISI. By setting Z who's made some really good noises to fail, you're losing a chance to have a say. To grind the knife deeper cutting PA/ISI influence on groups. You're failing India to getting appropriate leverage within the PA setup. PA/ ISI policies you know, i know. Whether they are in power or they are out is the same thing. The difference is if they are out of 'power', we make sure 'power' is more centered on people like Z. We have to cut that yoke. That is the real thing and achievement.

In other words by putting the 19/ 20 list you've not set Z or Pak to fail, but Indian initiative itself to fail.

Harish · Post by **Harish** » 02 Dec 2008 18:33

And who is to stop Saeed and Dawood and assorted other bearded nasties from making a quick getaway to ummahlands for the time being? Who the hell is going to pressure the Saudis to arrest these men, if they go there? The Americans? Fat chance.

Bakistan has always lied that Dawood was not present on its soil. If push comes to shove, bakis can push him out and speak the absolute truth that he is not on their soil.

Who the hell is stopping Mumbai police from acting against Dawood's financial and economic interests in Mumbai? He has some relatives here. Bash them up, castrate them and listen to the squeaks emanating from the ISI hole where he's put up. Send gunmen to eliminate him. Dawood is history. As simple as that.

This list solves no purpose. The assholes in the UPA couldnt come up with anything and after much scratching of heads and balls decided to dust off the list of 20 for assaulting our sensibilities with. Who the F**k stopped them from pursuing the list before the attacks? Isn't that list supposed to be pursued actively to completion? The same assholes who were singing praises of the bakistanis till a few days ago are now having to push papers to look busy. It's pathetic beyond words.

Indira Gandhi was like Durga herself. We have had our share of bravehearts politicians. Heck even the inept Nehru did not compromise our interests as much as the current bunch is doing. When did this utter b.a.l.l.l.e.s.s.n.e.s.s come upon us?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 02 Dec 2008 18:43

Sanku wrote:
RajeshA wrote: The whole 'Pakistan is also a victim' nonsense came afterward. Indian Government who likes to conduct all its business through official channels with foreign governments, has allowed itself to walk into a trap of its own making. At least when dealing with Musharraf, Indian Government knew, that it is dealing with one of the major power brokers in Pakistan. Now we have no line of communication with them at all.!
Dear RajeshA; I think you are forgetting this

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/200 ... 080800.htm

No sireee; the problem or solution is not the head of Pakistan but.....

Dear Sanku,

You are reading me wrong. I am basically advocating, that we should deal with the true establishment directly, be it diplomatically or militarily, and get rid of this Zardari make-up.

I have written earlier, that India should stop recognizing or acknowledging the Pakistani President anyway, because as you say, he is neither the problem nor a solution, and if I may add, nor an actor/participant.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 02 Dec 2008 18:46

I don't think any of our grumblings on this forum about Uncle Sam or TSP or spineless politicians are going to matter. We dont have the political system that can respond quickly, with iron will - it is a defuse, hazy power structure, designed to shift the blame and responsibility around in a confused cloud - a perfect additive to the opium-"turiananda" state that the society is supposed to be in a contemplative permanent deep freeze.

There is no point wasting energy on futile speculations. The state is not ready for military retaliation or intervention -primarily because it has never really thought about it, has no time bound plans and objectives for Pakistan, has no decisions about the desired fate of Pakistan. This is the part of restructuring I am asking for people to think of first - think of the basic ideology and programme that should become the driving principle for the Indian nations and state. Once that is clear, objectives and methods for achieving them and by whom can be worked out. One good thing that has resulted from the recent outrages is a psychological proximity that has developed between the society at large and the armed forces bypassing the established political system. We would be so glad to hear what the Indian army "really" thinks its role and India's role should be - as this can be a basis for civilian-military partnership - we need to know what the army wants from us, and the army needs to know what we want from them - without the mediation by incompetent, shortsighted, and self-serving political elite we have managed to develop so far.

Without this basis and preparation, no strategic expansion can be thought of. We should pretend to cooperate with Pakistan and the world until we are ready - in fact we should do everything possible to convince even the Jihadis that we desperately want peace with them. What we plan for them in reality should not be discussed in open forums. Complete liquidation, of ideological leadership of terror and anti-Indian moves, and if necessary of all structures human or material that supports them, even if it is costly in human terms for the "enemy", is the ultimate target - but at a place of our choice, at a time of our choice, and when we are ready.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 02 Dec 2008 18:51

RajeshA wrote:
Dear Sanku,

You are reading me wrong. I am basically advocating, that we should deal with the true establishment directly, be it diplomatically or militarily, and get rid of this Zardari make-up.
.

No RajeshA; I didnt get you wrong; I agree with what you say with a caveat; this assumes (as you can see from the link I posted) that GoI is going to do anything different between make up and reality. Even with the reality (Mush), Dr Singh was in a rapid hurry to give the Pakistani's clean chit.

So yes for a GoI which wants to do -- getting rid of the 10%i middleman may help, a little -- but for a GoI who really wants to do stuff the middleman will also cough up.

For the current GoI; it doesnt matter who in power in Pakistan or US or whatsoever. We are doomed; we can only revisit this topic after we have a Indian GoI and not a bunch of folks whose claim to fame is love for the US.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 02 Dec 2008 18:53

brihaspati wrote:. This is the part of restructuring I am asking for people to think of first - think of the basic ideology and programme that should become the driving principle for the Indian nations and state.

Bingo

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 02 Dec 2008 19:01

Dear Sanku,

My Christmas Presents Wish List was 'a military dictator, unpopular in Pakistan, i.e. a Musharraf after 9th March, 2007 and detested by the world, i.e. a Musharraf before 11th September, 2001'.

We never got the ideal Musharraf. I am hoping for one after Zardari's departure.

As far as GoI's guts go, I believe, we are on the same page.

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 02 Dec 2008 19:23

People's anger and a crumbling spy agency

Six nights after the Mumbai terror attacks [Images] there are two distinct waves visible in India.

One is the tsunami of emotions over the blasts in Mumbai. Newspaper reports and television channels are reporting the rich and powerful, poor and faceless people's anger, anguish and fury against government's massive failure on all fronts that has resulted in this attack.

People don't need pundits to tell them that the Indian Navy failed to monitor the Arabian Sea. The Coast Guard were slack or were bought out while patrolling.

In Maharashtra, the local police didn't heed two specific warnings that had come from the Centre. The Intelligence Bureau headquarters in Chankyapuri in New Delhi [Images] failed to weigh the intelligence of possible attacks. They should have added value to the information through incisive analysis so that it is taken seriously by the states. When National Security Advisor M K Narayanan was struggling to get the Indo-US nuclear deal through at Vienna [Images] in September these specific warnings had come stating the serious risk facing hotels in Mumbai. As Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi [Images] says, the IB's information is like the Weather Bureau warnings.

Unfortunately, security was slack in the hotels in Mumbai even after receiving clear calls. Ratan Tata's interview to CNN shockingly gives us clues about what was wrong with the security at Taj Hotel [Images] even after getting the warnings, officially.

If you watch and read the surge of emotions one thought clearly emerges, that people are frustrated, desperate and want things to change. They want to bury the chalta hai attitude. They want politicians to be accountable and the most important message of all those interviews of survivors and victims' relatives is that the people of India want safety. They don't want to die cheap. The fury is directed against the government in power at the centre and in Maharashtra. But, that's not all. People were really, really fuming, and when Modi flew down to Mumbai for a television appearance and announced the award of Rs 1 crore for the slain police officers, people found it disgusting.

"What was the need to start politics before the operation is over? If he really cares for policemen, why can't he give money without making political capital out of it?" a man standing outside the Trident Hotel asked.

Even the populist Modi is the target of people's ire.

But in New Delhi things don't move riding on Mumbai's emotions.

Before debating what all can be done post the Mumbai terror attacks, one must remember that this government is in power for less than four months. Just 100 odd days. Do you really believe that people in power in New Delhi will take note of Mumbai's anguish and not bring in electoral politics while responding to the terrorist attacks? Before talking about what the new Home Minister P Chidambaram and External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee can do, let us talk about intelligence failure.

Let us talk of the Reasearch and Analysis Wing (India's external intelligence agency), first.

Just a week before the attack, Nisha Bhatia, a disgruntled RAW employee, threatened to commit suicide by jumping from the terrace of the agency's headquarters. The entire building had to be secured and it created a major panic.

India's premier intelligence agency has been in a coma for many months and neither the Prime Minister's Office nor the National Security Advisor's office have any solution-oriented approach. If RAW was built in the last 35 plus years, it has crumbled in the last 35 months.

It is out in the open and for everybody to see how one employee's dissent has taken an enormous amount of time of its top brass and staff -- who are supposed to spy and do brainstorming analysis on the geopolitical strategies of world powers.

Our spies are bogged down on the HRD issue of an employee for the last many weeks. RAW's senior officers have no clue how to handle her or cool her down. The country can neither laugh nor cry over the issue.

Since the last one year many stories have been leaked about RAW to an obscure web site. Never before has so much muck been printed against the country's intelligence agency without any attempt to stop it. Can't RAW really fix these leaks?

RAW is so faction-ridden that senior officers do not normally take their juniors to important meetings. Many are not on talking terms.

More importantly, Ashok Chatuvedi, secretary in charge of RAW, is retiring in February. He wants Sanjiv Tripathi, an IPS officer, to take over from him. Tripathi is the son-in-law of former RAW chief G S Vajpayee. Rana Bannerji, number three currently, is an acknowledged Pakistan expert and an IAS officer from the Assam cadre. In spite of his expertise he is supposed to be far behind in the race because the senior most officer B V Kumar is a Malayali. Most people believe that in the current regime, Malayalis are a favoured lot. So RAW's only Pakistan expert Bannerji is likely to resign if anybody is thrust upon from outside or if Kumar takes over. Kumar is known to be quite a decent man. But he reportedly doesn't have popular backing within the organisation since he is considered to be too sober to be chief.

As a result Narayanan could also consider a senior officer of IB who is also an expert on terrorism to lead RAW. The decision is likely to come within one month, so you can imagine that the babus at RAW are engaged in calculating the multiple impact of a new incoming chief more than anything else.

If an outsider comes in, even that would be resented. In this country even a sarpanch can't be imposed from the outside.

Narayanan is getting a bad name from RAW officers for step-motherly treatment. But, then, talent is not known a virtue in RAW these days, say Narayanan's defenders. RAW is doomed for the time being whoever becomes its boss.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/dec/02c ... agency.htm

what is going on

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 02 Dec 2008 19:25

harbans wrote:Rajesh, setting up one to fail is bad policy. You've achieved nothing. Your idea is to weaken the power of the PA/ ISI. By setting Z who's made some really good noises to fail, you're losing a chance to have a say. To grind the knife deeper cutting PA/ISI influence on groups. You're failing India to getting appropriate leverage within the PA setup. PA/ ISI policies you know, i know. Whether they are in power or they are out is the same thing. The difference is if they are out of 'power', we make sure 'power' is more centered on people like Z. We have to cut that yoke. That is the real thing and achievement.

In other words by putting the 19/ 20 list you've not set Z or Pak to fail, but Indian initiative itself to fail.

Harbans,

perhaps I should mention, why I am advocating such a failure.

Too much currency has been given to the mantra, 'Pakistan is also a victim of terrorism'. Now when we speak of Pakistan, we see the smiling Zardari, and we think, this is Pakistan. Would India have the stomach to militarily strike at Pakistan, if Zardari keeps smiling from our TV screens? This is also what the Americans would have us believe, as their concern is keeping the Pakistani soldiers on their western border to Afghanistan. The Americans know, who the real power brokers are in Pakistan and they deal with them directly. India does not do that. In the end, nobody touches the real Pakistani Establishment.

Now should Zardari be gone, the Americans would be forced to again deal with a dictator, only this time it will Obama and the Democrats, who don't really feel at ease with dictatorships, unlike the Republicans. If the public face of Pakistan had been a dictator and Democrats had been in power, the story in the media would have been far different. It would not have been 'Pakistan is also a victim of terrorism', but rather 'Pakistan has attacked India'. The pressure for India to respond strongly would have been far greater, if a Pakistani dictator had been on the throne. The world would have been much more willing to accept Pakistan as a 'sponsor of state terrorism'. The Americans would have had a harder time, asking for restraint of us and of themselves.

Zardari's presence spoils the resolve of the world, especially India, to take the Pakistani Problem head-on. That is why I think, Zardari must go.