Indian Response to Terrorism

[Nirantar]

My 8 points in the order of priority.

1. Instead of threats of surgical strikes, why dont we unleash our agents and give them eye for an eye. For a single blast in India there should be 10 blasts done there. A full scale war is fruitless and will unite the whole country against us.
2. What these Babas, akharas will work for us. What if we first motivate them and then convert into pseudo muslims and export to the other side of the border. Let them taste their own medicine.
3. Increase the aid and all kind of support to BLA, afghans and do la 1971 again for them. Unless its dismembered into 4 states, the world cant be given a chance of peace.
4. US, Israel, Russia should be vehemently pursued to plan on a large scale to robe pak from its strategic assets i.e nukes. We cant be held as hostages on the pretext of their first use nuclear policy. Their nukes could be directed againts any country of the world. Its like a madman possessing a gun.
5. Increase the budget of intelligence many folds. Employ CCTV, public awareness, parttime informers. Convert few thousand hindus into pseudo muslims and settle them in muslim ghettos.
6. Routinely flex army/airforce muscle at the border and let them increase their defence budget more and more and thus pump more financial instability.
7. Prepare groundwork so their public anger is augmented due to the powerty, hunger to the level that common masses revolt against their army and snatch power to the moderate face of civilian govt.

8. Create world level stage to declare it a morally, socially and politically and economically failed country and lebelled as terrorist country.

[Sumeet]

Pak hub of terror but war no solution: Pranab

New Delhi: Attacking Pakistan is not the solution to terror menace, said External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee while addressing the Lok Sabha on Thursday.

"I am making it quite clear that it (war) is not a solution," Pranab Mukherjee said and added that India is building up an international campaign against terror and will try to put adequate pressure on Pakistan to act.

Speaking during the debate on the Mumbai terror attack, Mukherjee said that Pakistan must act against terror groups based on its soil and stop them from launching attacks against India.

"Controllers of Mumbai attacks were in Pakistan. Islamabad should act against them. Pakistan must be forced to act against terrorists. There is irrefutable proof (that) the epicentre of this (Mumbai terror attack) attack and not only this one but many more are in our neighbouring country," said Mukherjee.

The External Affairs Minister hinted that Pakistan has been willingly giving shelter to criminals and terrorists wanted in India and said that it has failed to handover Dawood Ibrahim despite repeated demands made by India.

He also demanded that Pakistan must hand over all those responsible for such dastardly terror attacks on India. “India has demanded arrest and handing over of 40 terrorists taking shelter in Pakistan. Islamabad should seriously act and not be in a denial mode,” he said.

He pointed out that only India but many other countries have also been affected by terror attacks and said that it is now a global phenomenon and must be tackled globally.

"Terror has assumed a dimension that is not confined to individual country. It is not confined within the territorial boundaries of any state. It is now cross border and has become an international phenomenon," Mukherjee said.

He also rubbished Pakistan's claims that terrorists were non-state actors.

"Question is not of the non-state actors. Are they coming from heaven or they are coming from a different planet? They are located in the territory of a particular country. We are suggesting to Pakistan please act. Mere expression of intention is not adequate," thundered Mukherjee,

He also demanded that Pakistan put in legal or police custody Jaish-e-Mohammad's (JeM) chief Maulana Masood Azhar and also fulfil India's demands of arresting Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT) Hafez Sayeed

"I was told by an international interlocutor that Hafiz Saeed was arrested and now after sometime I heard from our mission that he's appearing on TV. Azhar (JeM chief) has been house arrested. What does it mean by house arrest?" he asked.

Responding to Advani's concern that the UN could result in the internationalisation of the Kashmir issue, Mukherjee outlined India's official policy and said India will reject all attempts to link the Kashmir dispute with cross border terrorism.

[Raja Ram]

Following is the text of Home Minister P Chidambaram's speech in the Lok Sabha on Thursday on the Mumbai terror attacks:

I wish to make a statement on the terrorist attacks that took place in Mumbai between November 26, 2008 and November 29, 2008. With deep regret, I have to report to this House that 164 persons (civilians and security personnel) lost their lives and 308 persons were injured. Among the civilians killed were 26 foreigners belonging to many nationalities. Besides, nine terrorists were killed in the operations by the security forces. One terrorist was overpowered and captured.

At the outset, I wish to pay homage to the innocent civilians who were killed and the brave security personnel who laid down their lives in order to save the lives of many others. I offer my heartfelt condolences to the bereaved families. The Government of India and the Government of Maharashtra have announced a set of measures as compensation for the terrible loss suffered by the families. Monetary compensation and free treatment have been offered to the injured. While words of sympathy and money can never adequately recompense the loss, I sincerely hope that our gesture will bring some comfort to the affected families.

The broad facts of the horrific tragedy are, by now, known to the Honourable Members and the people of India. According to information gathered during the course of the investigations, it appears that 10 Pakistani nationals belonging to the Lashkar-e-Toiba, a proscribed terrorist outfit, had left Karachi on November 23, 2008; boarded a launch by the name of Al Hussaini; accosted and hijacked an Indian fishing vessel, MV Kuber, off the coast of Gujarat; killed its occupants; and a few miles short of the coast of Mumbai abandoned the fishing vessel, got into an inflatable rubber dinghy, and landed near Budhwar Park, Colaba, Mumbai between 8.00 pm and 8.30 pm on Nov 26, 2008.

The terrorists split into four groups and the main targets of the four groups were (i) Chatrapati Shivaji Terminus (CST); (ii) the Leopold Café and Taj Hotel; (iii) the Oberoi - Trident Hotel and; (iv) the Nariman House. These attacks involved indiscriminate firing, throwing of grenades and bomb blasts at 13 locations. Considering the extensive publicity that the whole episode has already received in the media and through official statements, it may not be necessary for me to go into the details of what happened at each of these locations.

I shall now give you a brief account of the response of the authorities to the terrorist attack. At the CST, security personnel belonging to the Mumbai police and the RPF confronted two heavily armed terrorists. After causing mayhem at CST, the two terrorists escaped via a lane opposite the station. Meanwhile, as soon as news of the firing at the CST and near Cama Hospital was received, police officers rushed to the sites.

There was an unexpected - and fortuitous - confrontation between the two terrorists and the police personnel in which three officers were killed. Subsequently, the two terrorists were challenged by a police party and, in an exchange of fire, one terrorist was killed and one was captured alive. The name of the apprehended terrorist is Mohammed Ajmal Amir. Interrogation and investigation have revealed that he belongs to Village Faridkot, in District Ukada, in the province of Punjab in Pakistan.

As information about the terrorist attacks poured in from the Nariman House, Taj Hotel and the Oberoi-Trident Hotel, police parties were rushed to the places.

Shortly before 11 pm on November 26, 2008, information was received by the Central Government that there were incidents of firing in several places in Mumbai. Immediately, the Central Government authorities got in touch with the authorities of the Government of Maharashtra.

At the request of the Government of Maharashtra, the local Army and Navy authorities were asked to provide assistance. Accordingly, the Army deployed 5 columns to cordon off the affected areas and the Navy deployed their commandos to deal with the terrorists. Meanwhile, at about 11.30 pm, the Government of Maharashtra asked for the National Security Guards.

The Central Government immediately alerted the NSG and mobilized their counter terrorist units, based at Manesar in Haryana. A group of around 200 men (which was reinforced the next day) was airlifted to Mumbai late that night. They were deployed at the various sites of the operation in the early hours of November 27, 2008.

The operations were conducted under very difficult circumstances: the terrorists were heavily armed, there was a hostage situation, and the terrorists had the advantage of shield and height afforded by the tall buildings that they had entered. Nevertheless, through their patience, skill and bravery, the security forces were able to neutralise the terrorists and rescued hundreds of persons who had been trapped in the buildings. The operations came to an end at about 8.20 am on Nov 29, 2008.

Cases have been registered and the investigations have been entrusted to the Crime Branch of the Mumbai Police. The authorities of the Maharashtra Police and the Central agencies have extended their full support to the Mumbai Police in the conduct of the investigations. Honourable Members will appreciate that it would not be appropriate to disclose any details of the investigations except to draw attention to the official briefings given by the Mumbai Police. Nor would I be able to comment on the many reports that have appeared in the media from time to time. I would respectfully urge patience until the investigations are completed and the reports are filed before the court of law.

I am, however, able to say that the finger of suspicion unmistakably points to the territory of our neighbour, Pakistan. The interrogation of the captured terrorist has yielded valuable material evidence. The origins of the ten terrorists who entered India have been established conclusively. There is also abundant evidence gathered from the inflatable rubber dinghy, the fishing vessel and the bodies of the terrorists that has enabled the investigators to reconstruct the sequence of events from the origin to the targets.

I know that Honourable Members - as well as the people of the country - would wish to ask a number of questions concerning the nature and extent of the terrorist threat to India, the intelligence gathering machinery, the preparedness of our security forces, the effectiveness of the operations, and on the path forward. There are genuine concerns on each of these matters. I share these concerns. In the last ten days, even while familiarising myself with the security situation and the working of the Ministry of Home Affairs, the intelligence agencies, the Central Paramilitary Forces and the State Police forces. I have initiated a number of steps that will, I believe, enhance security and restore the confidence of the people.

Honourable Members, in my assessment, South Asia is in the eye of the storm of terror. Several terrorist organisations operating from territories beyond India's borders have been identified as the source of the terrorist attacks in India that have occurred over the last several years.

India told the United Nations Security Council yesterday that "India will act to safeguard and protect its people from such heinous attacks; however long and difficult that task may be. We have acted with restraint in the face of terrorist attacks. We must do our duty by our people and take all actions as we deem fit to defend and protect them". That is our policy. My colleague, Shri Pranab Mukherjee, Minister for External Affairs will intervene in the discussion and deal with the external and diplomatic aspects of the situation arising out of the terrorist attacks in Mumbai.

We have a number of intelligence gathering agencies. Intelligence is shared, evaluated and acted upon. However, I have found that there is a tendency to treat some intelligence inputs that are not specific or precise as not actionable intelligence. Further, the responsibility for acting upon intelligence inputs is quite diffused. In the case of the Mumbai attacks, intelligence regarding a suspected LeT vessel attempting to infiltrate through the sea route was shared with the Director General, Coast Guard and the Principal Director, Naval Intelligence.

The Coast Guard made a serious effort, including deploying vessels and aircraft, to locate the suspect vessel, but was not successful. The Navy found that the coordinates of the vessel, as reported, placed it well within the territorial waters of Pakistan. Nevertheless, the Navy had committed several surface units and aircraft in the zone during the period on November 19-20, 2008. In the absence of further inputs or information from the agencies concerned, the Navy concluded that no further action could be taken on the basis of the available information.

I wish to inform Honourable Members that all aspects concerning intelligence are under my examination. While the basic structure seems sound, there is a need to make intelligence gathering and intelligence sharing more effective and result oriented. Some changes have already been made and more are underway.

The NSG is our best trained and best equipped force to counter a terrorist attack. On many occasions in the past - and in Mumbai too - they have displayed exceptional courage and skill. They are hampered by the distance between their headquarters and the airport; the absence of a dedicated aircraft; and the poor logistics in the theatre of operations.

Nevertheless, once deployed, the NSG is a very effective counter terrorist force. I have initiated a number of steps to remove the logistical weaknesses in mobilising and deploying the NSG. A decision has been taken to locate NSG units in a few regional hubs. A decision has also been taken to draw upon the commando units of the Armed Forces to create more regional hubs until a decision is taken to locate NSG units in those hubs too. These decisions will be implemented as expeditiously as possible.

The Mumbai terrorist attacks have brought into sharp focus the vulnerability of our coastline that extends to 7,500 kms and the imperative need to enhance maritime and coastal security. A coastal security scheme was approved in January 2005 for implementation over a period of five years with an outlay of Rs 400 crore for capital expenditure and Rs 151 crore for recurring expenditure during the first five years.

We have reviewed the scheme and we have concluded that there is a need to strengthen it and integrate it into a larger security system. A decision has been taken in-principle to create a Coastal Command for overall supervision and coordination of maritime and coastal security. The mandate of the Coastal Command will be to secure India's coastline.

I may also report to this House a number of other decisions that have been taken in order to enhance security:

Intelligence gathering requires human resources and technical resources. We have identified the gaps. Steps are being taken to fill the vacancies in the intelligence organisations expeditiously and to provide them with advanced technical equipment.

India Reserve Battalions are being raised in a number of States with financial assistance from the Central Government. Government have already authorised that two companies of each battalion may be raised as special commando units for which additional assistance will be provided for training, equipment etc.

It has been decided to set up 20 counter-insurgency and anti-terrorism schools in different parts of the country for training the commando units of the State police forces.

A separate exercise is underway to strengthen the laws relating to terrorist acts. We are in the process of consulting different political parties and I hope to introduce in this session, with the leave of this House, a set of Bills to strengthen the legal provisions relating to the prevention, investigation, prosecution and punishment of terrorist acts. One of the Bills is for setting up a National Investigation Agency. I would urge this House to consider and pass these Bills in this session. I would also urge this House to pass the Amendment Bill to the Prevention of Money Laundering Act, 2002.

The Prime Minister, in his address to the Nation on November 27, 2008 declared the resolve of the Government to take the strongest possible measures to ensure the security of the Nation and the people. I promise, on behalf of the Government, that we will strain every nerve to carry this resolve into determined action. There is one thing that I wish to make clear: given the nature of the threat, we cannot go back to "business as usual". In the next few weeks and months, it will be my endeavour to take certain hard decisions and prepare the country and the people to face the challenge of terrorism.

I appeal to all sections of this Honourable House and to the people of India to stand united and brave in the face of the challenge of terrorism. I ask you to remember the extraordinary courage of Assistant Sub-Inspector Tukaram Ombale who grabbed the barrel of the gun and took all the bullets in his chest to enable his fellow policemen to overpower Mohammed Ajmal Amir.

I ask you to remember the supreme sacrifice made by Major Sandeep Unnikrishnan who ordered his men to stay back while he confronted the terrorists. Ordinary men and women like us cannot match their bravery, but we can stay united in our resolve and in our actions. Nothing should divide us - not religion, not language, not caste. In our fight against terror, there will be need for self-restraint, discipline and even some sacrifice. I seek your support; and I have no doubt that, with your support and the support of the people, we shall overcome and vanquish the forces of terror.

Note: The highlights and emphasis are mine

[Tamang]

Stop 'running to mummy (US)' for tackling terror: BJP to Govt

NEW DELHI: Pledging support for a full-scale war against terror, Opposition BJP on Thursday said the government must stop "running" to Washington hoping that the US would come to its rescue in tackling Pakistan-backed terrorism.

"Please stop running to mummy (US)" hoping that somebody else will help the country to tackle terrorism, senior BJP leader Arun Shourie said initiating a discussion in the Rajya Sabha on the recent terror attacks in Mumbai.

He said the government keeps pinning its hopes on US Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice coming here to resolve the country's problems with regard to terrorism.

Asking the government to stop the peace process with Pakistan, he said "your intelligence record shows that ISI is now knitting together Indian insurgent groups".

Observing that China was propping up Pakistan, Shourie said Islamabad was supporting terrorism and at the same time putting the onus of the peace process on New Delhi.

Advising the government to come out of the "self-denial" mode, he said four days before the Mumbai terror strikes, former home minister Shivraj Patil was taking consolation in the figures showing comparison of terrorist attacks during the NDA and the UPA governments.

Referring to coastal security, he said barring one, none of the remaining 35 islands in Lakshadsweep was properly staffed by intelligence agencies.

Noting that the country remained vulnerable because terrorist groups backed by the neighbouring country use high technology like voice over internet protocol, he warned that in the next five years the terrorists would use non-conventional weapons like chemical and nuclear arms in miniature forms.

Shourie said the 'proxy war' started by former Pakistan President Zia ul Haq has kept India "bleeding" for 35 years with no damage to them.

Advising the government to judge Pakistan by the ground realities, he said "please do not go by joint statements that you sign with their leaders".

Rejecting the theory of using minimal force, Shourie said the government should go with full force to win over the proxy war unleashed by Pakistan.

"Not an eye for an eye. But for an eye, both eyes. For a tooth, whole jaw," he said.

He observed that violence in Jammu and Kashmir had come down in the last one year because Pakistan was preoccupied with its own problems in troubled areas like Balochistan, the tribal belt and other places.

He asked the government to empower the proposed Federal Investigation Agency with adequate teeth. Asking the government not to make it a prestige issue, he said if the UPA was "allergic" to POTA, it should bring changes in the National Security Act so that tough actions can be taken against terrorists.

Shourie said the entire country would support the government if it took effective and urgent steps to combat terrorism.

He reminded Chidambaram that if he failed to act sternly against terrorism, "this time it will not only the share prices that will come down, but the entire country would have been let down and exposed to greater danger".

Critical of the government for "routinising" the threats of terror attacks through sea and land routes, Shourie cautioned that seeking Pakistan's help in probing Mumbai attacks would be like living in a "fool's paradise".

He said the attacks have made clear that "all the terror infrastructure in India set up by Pakistan remains, be it the hawala network or smuggling routes through our coastlines".

He added that Pakistan will "never suffer" and "it has already gone on blackmail mode as soon as India twitched its brows after the Mumbai attacks, threatening to move its forces from Afghanistan to the Indo-Pak borders".

Shourie said Pakistan has always used this tactic when under pressure and started "blackmailing" the US, "which is its main prop. Condoleezza Rice came here, but what will she do when their government will go in the next five weeks".

The BJP MP said that Pakistan has always nurtured terror modules in India and "if we agree to its request of a joint probe, it would be like living in a fool's paradise".

Reading out various statements and resolutions issued by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, the then home minister Shivraj Patil and defence minister A K Antony between early last year till a day before the Mumbai attacks, Shourie said that "terror is getting routinised".

The BJP MP also stressed on involvement of local help to terrorists involved in Mumbai terror attacks and lamented that "we are politically hamstrung to talk about it".

He said between 2004 and 2006, 81 terror modules have been busted by intelligence agencies.

"These were ISI modules and due to this, many possible explosions were averted. But ISI has been able to penetrate into India, and the intelligence agencies are yet to unravel its full network," he said, adding that effective steps for curbing terrorism are required.

[Sumeet]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 823174.cms
CREDIT: TIMES INSIGHT GROUP

[AniB]

Ramana, my bad.. I meant do LeT and JuD have Tajik connection. As far as I remember, Ahmad Shah Masood was anti-Taliban and assassinated on Sept 10 2001. Are Hafeez and some of his cronies Afghan Tajik? If there are Islamists of this ilk there, it may become hairy for Ayni air base in Western Tajikistan. How do our aircraft even get there?

[bchatnani]

Javed Miandad should know where Dawood is. We should arrest him the next time he comes to India.

[Dilbu]

Pak hub of terror but war no solution: Pranab

IMVHO India should not have let the steam off with such a statement. Pukes should have been kept guessing as fear of the unknown brings out the 'pakiness' in anyone let alone braindead stratejikally brilliant jerrnails and that could only have been in India's favour at this juncture. What was the reason for such a statement? Has Unkil decided to go easy on Munna after the warmth of bonfire made out of Humvees reached DC?

[Dilbu]

There's a cost to killing Indians: Rahul Gandhi

Declaring that the Mumbai terror strikes were a "war on India", Congress MP Rahul Gandhi on Thursday said the message should go to the perpetrators that there is a cost to killing innocent Indians.

"It is not enough for us to protect the people. We should go one step beyond. People who have done this should understand very clearly that not only do we hold lives of our people highly, but there is also a cost to killing innocent Indians," Gandhi said.

Participating in the discussion on the Mumbai terror strikes in the Lok Sabha, he said that India will not stand around and tolerate people coming into her cities and killing ordinary Indians.

When the terrorists attacked Mumbai, they did not attack the young or the old, Hindus or Muslims, upper or lower castes but Indians, he said. "If our enemies view us as one, we have to act as one." (Strong words indeed Mr.Gandhi, but may I remind you that words don't win a war)

Gandhi said a national priority and a national response was needed to deal effectively with the war being waged against the country.

"We will fight this war against terror and win this war," he said lauding the unity shown by Parliament in response to the Mumbai attacks.

[sum]

MVHO India should not have let the steam off with such a statement.

Absolutely...for heavens sake, atleast keep mouthing some threating words even if you plan to do diddly-squat on the ground!!!! UN ban etc will hardly make any Paki loose even a second of his sleep.

Or, is the GoI so chankyian that it wants to lull Pak into relaxed mode(by mouthing no war, we want peace onlee) before doing some serious stuff though i honestly doubt it with the present GoI/MMS?

[SaiK]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/CPM_ ... 824169.cms Lashing out at the media over the coverage of Mumbai attacks, he said, "breaking news were infact breaking the unity of the country."

and this joker feels bad that babooze are getting exposed? and thus breaking the unity? who wants baboo unity?

[John Snow]

Desh ki Neta Rahul G Zindabad

reminds me of my investigative journalism days of Desh ki Neta Sanjay Gandhi (in the company of Ambi ka, Jayasudha, Jaya Pradha...) those were the days, just wear kurta Pyjama free food in any restaurant no questions asked in 1975 emegency days)

[vsudhir]

Pakistan is epicentre of global terror: PM

Parliament on Thursday adopted a resolution moved by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh which warned that India’s restraint should not be taken as weakness and termed Pakistan as the “epicentre of global terrorism which the world needed to deal with sternly and effectively”.

“We have to galvanise the international community into dealing sternly and effectively with the epicentre of terrorism which is located in Pakistan,” he said. The prime minister also offered apologies to the nation and leaders of the countries whose citizens were killed for Mumbai terror attacks.

Leader of Opposition L.K. Advani had also described Pakistan as the “epicentre of terrorism” in his speech earlier in the day.

He called the Mumbai attack a calculated one and said that the need to review the system to fight terror. "Our country needs modern and efficient police forces to meet these challenges. Our country has emerged stronger with every attack and will do so again,” the prime minister added.

Looks like our honorable subprime minister has sent a resolute (desolute?) message in Neitzhe's vein. Namely, "what doesn't kill us makes us stronger". Further he anticipates that more attacks will only strengthen india and the police force...
/sarc off

But more seriously, seems like a policy change is bieng executed by GoI. For the 1st time, we have:

1. PM and Oppn unitedly calling Pak the 'epicenter of global terror'. 'Epicenter' is a loaded word and 'global terror' deflects any unwise kashmir whines fro TSP and also brings in the P5-PRC into the gambit.

“The infrastructure of terrorism has to be dismantled permanently. This is for the good of the entire world community including the well being of the people of Pakistan themselves,” he said.

"There can [sic] be double standards in fighting terrorism. Our restraint should not be taken by anyone as our weakness. We need to act and respond with greater speed," he said.

Wow, somebody from PMO is reading BRF, seems like. The words are all nice. Straight outta brf playbook. But end of the day, question retuns to that ol' stumbling (bumbling?) block: Can GoI walk the talk on this one?

[NRao]

Pak hub of terror but war no solution: Pranab

IMVHO India should not have let the steam off with such a statement. Pukes should have been kept guessing as fear of the unknown brings out the 'pakiness' in anyone let alone braindead stratejikally brilliant jerrnails and that could only have been in India's favour at this juncture. What was the reason for such a statement? Has Unkil decided to go easy on Munna after the warmth of bonfire made out of Humvees reached DC?

It is more to keep Indians quite than to send a signal to TSP. Besides, everyone knows that a formal war is not possible. Even the US finds it a challenge to deal with Pakistani internal dynamics.

Removing the specter of terrorism - here on out - should be left to other nations. My feel is that it would be far better for India to clean house and secure the borders. The speech that Chidambaram gave yesterday is perhaps the lowest level that India has reached as a nation. Considering the situation it is very hard to believe that so much still needs to be done within India - on security (this does not touch on other areas where the country NEEDS to catch up with herself, leave alone other nations). It is pathetic.

[NRao]

All the noise coming from PMO and Mr. Gandhi are meant to keep the people in line - let them hear what they want to hear. Nothing else will come out of it without US backing.

[Nesoj]

http://in.reuters.com/article/topNews/i ... 0020081211

The PCB's director-general Javed Miandad said that after the resumption of England's tour of India, he was hopeful of some positive news on the India tour in the coming days.

Are these guys so thick-headed or what ? The country is on the brink of armed hostilities, and this idiot is talking about cricket.

Probably more worried about the loss of revenue his daughter-in-laws family would make in the betting

[Johann]

Ramana, my bad.. I meant do LeT and JuD have Tajik connection. As far as I remember, Ahmad Shah Masood was anti-Taliban and assassinated on Sept 10 2001. Are Hafeez and some of his cronies Afghan Tajik? If there are Islamists of this ilk there, it may become hairy for Ayni air base in Western Tajikistan. How do our aircraft even get there?

Ani, the LeT leadership have no Tajik connection.

The pakhol wool hat became the globally recognised symbol of the Afghan resistance to the Soviets because Ahmed Shah Masood built the strongest relationship with the Western media and NGO world of any mujaheddin leader right from the start. He had to in order to counteract the ISI's hostility.

The LeT appropriated that symbol in order to remind Muslims that they fought in Afghanistan, although the truth is they only really got involved *after* the Soviets withdrew. So not only is their wearing of the pakhol propaganda, it is highly deceptive propaganda.

The LeT's strongest connections outside India have always been to Saudi Arabia, where they have many donors on account of their shared Ahle Hadith/Wahhabi background.

[rsingh]

Desh ki Neta Rahul G Zindabad

reminds me of my investigative journalism days of Desh ki Neta Sanjay Gandhi (in the company of Ambi ka, Jayasudha, Jaya Pradha...) those were the days, just wear kurta Pyjama free food in any restaurant no questions asked in 1975 emegency days)

Youth from our village used to hide in sugarcane fields if any Van was approaching village...................to avoid nasbandhi . Time right after emergency was fun......remember those pics in "Illustrated Weekly"........neta was admiring his own photo taken by himself having sex with some PYT.

[ManishC]

Desh ki Neta Rahul G Zindabad

reminds me of my investigative journalism days of Desh ki Neta Sanjay Gandhi (in the company of Ambi ka, Jayasudha, Jaya Pradha...) those were the days, just wear kurta Pyjama free food in any restaurant no questions asked in 1975 emegency days)

Youth from our village used to hide in sugarcane fields if any Van was approaching village...................to avoid nasbandhi . Time right after emergency was fun......remember those pics in "Illustrated Weekly"........neta was admiring his own photo taken by himself having sex with some PYT.

It was Jagjivan Ram's son IIRC, don't think lady was particularly P or Y and less said about the gent the better.
Added later:-
Reference as required by all scholarly work
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/spec ... ayer.shtml

[rsingh]

Well in those amateurish days every bit of open flesh was P and Y for village boy like me

[Paul]

It was Jagjivan Ram's son IIRC, don't think lady was particularly P or Y and less said about the gent the better.
Added later:-
Reference as required by all scholarly work
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/spec ... ayer.shtml

JJ Ram's son was in his 40s...with a Jat girl in her 20s.

[Johann]

Ani,

One additional detail.

The Afghan province where the LeT was the most active (around 1989-1991) was Kunar, where the pakhol was worn - although not with the same fervour.

Incidentally this is exactly the same area where the LeT is active today in Afghanistan, fighting Coalition and Afghan National Army forces.

[Prem]

Youth from our village used to hide in sugarcane fields if any Van was approaching village...................to avoid nasbandhi . Time right after emergency was fun......remember those pics in "Illustrated Weekly"........neta was admiring his own photo taken by himself having sex with some PYT.

It was Jagjivan Ram's son IIRC, don't think lady was particularly P or Y and less said about the gent the better.
Added later:-
Reference as required by all scholarly work
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/spec ... ayer.shtml

I had the pleasure of meeting Mr Tyagi in late 80s.
Surprisingly , i am finding out quite few from the bunch i came to know in Delhi on olden days have now become MPs with big amount of fat on them.

[Yogi_G]

I had the pleasure of meeting Mr Tyagi in late 80s.
Surprisingly , i am finding out quite few from the bunch i came to know in Delhi on olden days have now become MPs with big amount of fat on them.

I just finished seeing the movie Independence day for the umpteenth time and the President in the movies was a former fighter-pilot . Them soldier turned politicians knowing the ground realities and challenges, I pity there are not many of them in our political circles.

[SaiK]

my fear is now that pakis will divert the whole issue by assassinating their pm.. just like bhutto., and the whole world will forget mumbai as it never happened., and our babooze will be soft like butter again., and that they would start using that butter for their regular hand-lings.

pakistan's PM should be given advice.. also look out for any re-coup-de-tat by mushaarafites. can't rule that out.

[samuel.chandra]

I think BJP needs to up the pressure for military action. Arun Shourie/Narendra Modi are the kind of people BJP should put forward. They should rip holes in the congressi asses with their fiery speeches. Someone like Narendra Modi should get up and give MMS a thorough lashing for pontificating even after the evidence is clear. Pakis will not act without threat of imminent military action and congress will not act without an imminent election loss. So supporting the congress, in case they decide to act is the right thing. But not hitting hard if they decide to back off, is suicidal in the national elections...people are not going to see anything different in BJP. I think the congress understands this and thats why Rahul and Pranabda spoke so clearly about making them pay. The Indian citizens are waiting impatiently... mere statements won't do.

Please sign this petition to force the govt to act (and send it to your friends).
http://www.petitiononline.com/MUMx2611/petition.html

Stop 'running to mummy (US)' for tackling terror: BJP to Govt

NEW DELHI: Pledging support for a full-scale war against terror, Opposition BJP on Thursday said the government must stop "running" to Washington hoping that the US would come to its rescue in tackling Pakistan-backed terrorism.

"Please stop running to mummy (US)" hoping that somebody else will help the country to tackle terrorism, senior BJP leader Arun Shourie said initiating a discussion in the Rajya Sabha on the recent terror attacks in Mumbai.

He said the government keeps pinning its hopes on US Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice coming here to resolve the country's problems with regard to terrorism.

Asking the government to stop the peace process with Pakistan, he said "your intelligence record shows that ISI is now knitting together Indian insurgent groups".

Observing that China was propping up Pakistan, Shourie said Islamabad was supporting terrorism and at the same time putting the onus of the peace process on New Delhi.

Advising the government to come out of the "self-denial" mode, he said four days before the Mumbai terror strikes, former home minister Shivraj Patil was taking consolation in the figures showing comparison of terrorist attacks during the NDA and the UPA governments.

Referring to coastal security, he said barring one, none of the remaining 35 islands in Lakshadsweep was properly staffed by intelligence agencies.

Noting that the country remained vulnerable because terrorist groups backed by the neighbouring country use high technology like voice over internet protocol, he warned that in the next five years the terrorists would use non-conventional weapons like chemical and nuclear arms in miniature forms.

Shourie said the 'proxy war' started by former Pakistan President Zia ul Haq has kept India "bleeding" for 35 years with no damage to them.

Advising the government to judge Pakistan by the ground realities, he said "please do not go by joint statements that you sign with their leaders".

Rejecting the theory of using minimal force, Shourie said the government should go with full force to win over the proxy war unleashed by Pakistan.

"Not an eye for an eye. But for an eye, both eyes. For a tooth, whole jaw," he said.

He observed that violence in Jammu and Kashmir had come down in the last one year because Pakistan was preoccupied with its own problems in troubled areas like Balochistan, the tribal belt and other places.

He asked the government to empower the proposed Federal Investigation Agency with adequate teeth. Asking the government not to make it a prestige issue, he said if the UPA was "allergic" to POTA, it should bring changes in the National Security Act so that tough actions can be taken against terrorists.

Shourie said the entire country would support the government if it took effective and urgent steps to combat terrorism.

He reminded Chidambaram that if he failed to act sternly against terrorism, "this time it will not only the share prices that will come down, but the entire country would have been let down and exposed to greater danger".

Critical of the government for "routinising" the threats of terror attacks through sea and land routes, Shourie cautioned that seeking Pakistan's help in probing Mumbai attacks would be like living in a "fool's paradise".

He said the attacks have made clear that "all the terror infrastructure in India set up by Pakistan remains, be it the hawala network or smuggling routes through our coastlines".

He added that Pakistan will "never suffer" and "it has already gone on blackmail mode as soon as India twitched its brows after the Mumbai attacks, threatening to move its forces from Afghanistan to the Indo-Pak borders".

Shourie said Pakistan has always used this tactic when under pressure and started "blackmailing" the US, "which is its main prop. Condoleezza Rice came here, but what will she do when their government will go in the next five weeks".

The BJP MP said that Pakistan has always nurtured terror modules in India and "if we agree to its request of a joint probe, it would be like living in a fool's paradise".

Reading out various statements and resolutions issued by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, the then home minister Shivraj Patil and defence minister A K Antony between early last year till a day before the Mumbai attacks, Shourie said that "terror is getting routinised".

The BJP MP also stressed on involvement of local help to terrorists involved in Mumbai terror attacks and lamented that "we are politically hamstrung to talk about it".

He said between 2004 and 2006, 81 terror modules have been busted by intelligence agencies.

"These were ISI modules and due to this, many possible explosions were averted. But ISI has been able to penetrate into India, and the intelligence agencies are yet to unravel its full network," he said, adding that effective steps for curbing terrorism are required.

[Baljeet]

I think BJP needs to up the pressure for military action. Arun Shourie/Narendra Modi are the kind of people BJP should put forward. They should rip holes in the congressi asses with their fiery speeches. Someone like Narendra Modi should get up and give MMS a thorough lashing for pontificating even after the evidence is clear. Pakis will not act without threat of imminent military action and congress will not act without an imminent election loss. So supporting the congress, in case they decide to act is the right thing. But not hitting hard if they decide to back off, is suicidal in the national elections...people are not going to see anything different in BJP. I think the congress understands this and thats why Rahul and Pranabda spoke so clearly about making them pay. The Indian citizens are waiting impatiently... mere statements won't do.

Dude Pleae.....
Try to grow up and get some gyan in life. Arun Shourie and Narendra Modi has no national appeal. They are regional players. Only way any of them can become PM is if BJP wins Absolute Majority, LKA dies and either of them becomes PM for rest of the term. India is a nation devoid of any leaders. We are full of apologists who much rather surrender than to stand upto terrorist form of I-Slam. In this nation of apologists and Gandhigiri there are no more "jugharoos". Just GUBO types.

[AniB]

Johann, I perceive that:

Formed in 1990 in the Kunar province of Afghanistan, the Lashkar-e-Taiba (also known as Jama'at-ud-Da'awa) is based in Muridke near Lahore in Pakistan and is headed by Hafiz Muhammad Saeed.

The United Tajik Opposition began life as a political/religious organization, made up of people living in exile in Afghanistan who were opposed to the Russian government. However, UTO gained strength and recruits when it turned Islamic fundamentalist and allied itself with the Islamic Renaissance Party of Tajikistan and the Movement for Islamic Revival in Tajikistan.

http://specials.indiatoday.com/terror/t ... ns_2.shtml

Said Abdullo Nuri assumed control of the United Tajik Opposition in 1994 and remained at the helm until its disbandment in 2003 when 30% of government posts were handed over to the Islamic parties. Said Abdullo Nuri was the leader of the Islamic Renaissance Party of Tajikistan, before he took control of the United Tajik Opposition. Today the terrorist is the head of Commission on National Reconciliation. Although UTO no longer exists, Muslims continue to use violence to intimidate their opponents and under different names, Islamist elements continue to terrorize the nation.

If I had been wearing the 'pakhol hat' and was under pressure, I could revive multiple causes by attacking Ayni, with some impunity.

I am not so sure of NO Tajik connection. The CAR cause is a viable interim cause that can damage IAF cheaply.

[NRao]

my fear is now that pakis will divert the whole issue by assassinating their pm.. just like bhutto...........

Do no think so. However, IF that happens then expect Jihadis to be more bold and actually strike other countries to test the theory of invading India.

To me nothing here looks good ............... either way. Something has to give and we ALL have to face the fact that we are ALL here because:
* Either our ancestors fought and won
* Fought and lost
* Surrendered before a fight or after a small fight
* Or ran away

Violence has been the thread that has brought ALL of us here.

And, I suspect violence will be the thread to bring about a term of peace.

I cannot see a time when Islamists will back of. The issue will be forced, even if the fundamental premise is wrong.

[sugriva]

Are Hafeez and some of his cronies Afghan Tajik?

Hafeez Mohammad Sayeed is a Muslim Gujjar from Pakistani Punjab.

Added later..
See this
http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/papers4/paper337.html

[AniB]

Sugrivam. Reference please. Do you agree with Johann's interpretation of Let/ JuD enacting post-Masood machoism?

[animesharma]

Gone were the days where pakistan's hostility used to revolve against kashmir. The recent polling and mood of J&K citizen has left little for pakistan to do in kashmir. the current trend is to take out the whole enemy. that is why they want to destroy india socially and economically. they share quite a bit of interest with china.
IMO, as PC said, war is not an option. Agreed! But then what strong option you are exercising?
Quoting a rediff article, i will quote some important points that GOI can do:

12 steps to shock-and-awe Pakistan's economy
http://www.rediff.com/money/2008/dec/11 ... conomy.htm

1. Contain their exports:
Identify the major export items of Pakistan (like Basmati rice, carpets, etc) and provide zero export tax or even subsidise them for export from India. Hurt Pakistan on the export front.( To add to that, Start disturbing various industrial installation in pakistan, this will discourage domestic industrial development.there is already small domestic industry, and limited to almost half of pakistan.Abducting of foreigners was a good exercise by freedom fighters in pakistan )

2. Check Arm race:
Identify the major countries providing arms to Pakistan and arm twist them. Tell Brazil and Germany (currently planning to supply massive defense items to Pakistan) that it will impact their ability to invest in India. Tell Germany that retail license to Metro will be off and other existing projects will be in jeopardy.(Fortunately, india is in a position to block military sales to pakistan from all but china.then do it. use your market power, use your economy as a tool.Warn defence exporters that they will be blacklisted if they continue to do business with porki.

3.Raise your voice:
Incidentally, after the arrival of Coke and Pepsi in China, the human rights violations of China are not talked about much by US government organs. Think it is a coincidence? Unless we use our markets to arm-twist arms exporters to Pakistan, we will not achieve our objectives.

4. Tell American companies that for every 5% increase in FDI limit for them, their government needs to reduce equipping Pakistan by $5 billion. That is real politics, not whining. Let us remember that funds are in desperate search of emerging markets and not the other way about. Let us also remember that international economics is politics by another name.

5. Raise inflation in pakistan:
Create assets to print/distribute their currency widely inside their country. To some extent, Telgi types can be used to outsource this activity. Or just drop their notes in remote areas.(I wish we can use telgi's expertise in pakistan.grant him a bail and continue him untrialed till does the same in pakistan what he did in india.

6. Pressurise IMF to add additional conditionality to the loans given to them or at least do not vote for their loans.

7. Create assets within Pakistan to destabilise Karachi stock market - it is already in a shambles.

8. Cricket and Bollywood are the opium of the Indian middle classes. Both have been adequately manipulated/ controlled by the D-company since the eighties. Chase the D-company money in cricket/ Bollywood and punish by burning D-assets in India instead of trying to have them auctioned by the IT department when nobody comes to bid for it.

9. Provide for capital punishment to those who fund terror and help in that. We have the division in the finance ministry to monitor money laundering, etc. It is important that terror financing is taken seriously and fully integrated into money laundering monitoring systems and this division is provided with much larger budget and human resources. And it should coordinate with RAW.

10.Get pakistani intellectual here:
Encourage and allow scientists/ academicians/ elites of Pakistan to opt for Indian passport and widely publicise that fact since it will hurt their self-respect and dignity. There will be a long queue to get Indian passports -- many will jump to get our passport -- since they will not be stopped at international airports. It is rumoured that Adnan Sami wants one. Do not give passports to all -- make it a prized possession. Let it hurt the army- and ISI-controlled country. This one step will destroy their identity and self-confidence.

11. Discourage companies from India from investing in Pakistan, particularly IT companies, till Pakistan stops exporting its own IT (international terrorism).

12. In all these, it is important that we do not bring in the domestic religious issues. The target is the terror central, namely Pakistan, and if there are elements helping them here then they also should be punished -- irrespective of religious labels. If Pakistan is dismantled and the idea of Pakistan is gone, many of our domestic issues will also be sorted out.

TO add to these points,

13. Have some regular maintenance sessions on baglihar dam and kabul dam.
14. Scrap all links with pakistani cricketer. if india doesn't play, no one will play pakistan. pakistan cricket will be really hurt.
15.Get some dawoods from pakistan and give pakistan a reason to create a real 20-wanted list.
16. Start making documentaries to expose truth of pakistan. The discovery and NGC is already doing it, and that does have an impact on global audience.


Continuing such processes will weaken pakistan in coming years. And when the time is right, hit them hard.
I don't think we will need to wait till WW3 for that.

[Airavat]

Are Hafeez and some of his cronies Afghan Tajik?

Hafeez Mohammad Sayeed is a Muslim Gujjar from Pakistani Punjab.

See this
http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/papers4/paper337.html

Just like the Pakistan army, the terrorist organisations in Pakistan are dominated by Punjabi Muslims of various castes.

[Rudradev]

deleted duplicate post

[putnanja]

Lack of coordination during Mumbai attacks glaring, says top US official

Lack of coordination during Mumbai attacks glaring, says top US official

Aziz Haniffa in Washington, DC | December 12, 2008 10:19 IST



United States Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff has said the absence of an operational incident manager -- as was developed in the US after the 9/11 attack -- clearly was a major problem during the Mumbai terror attacks [Images], where there was a glaring lack of coordination between various departments and agencies.


Speaking at the Johns Hopkins University, Chertoff said, "This is what was reflected in the Wall Street Journal a couple of days ago when they wrote about the lack of communication between the fire responders and the emergency responders, the police and the military dealing in the hours and then days after that initial assault in Mumbai."


Chertoff said, "The failure to coordinate all of those elements led to delay and lack of coordination and resulted in criticism directed against the government by the citizens of India itself. This is not again my opinion. I'm not commenting. I wasn't there."


"This is what the papers are reporting and the citizens of India have indicated," he added.


"What you come to recognise is without the kind of incident management and coordination we are building at the Department of Homeland Security, joint planning, joint execution, cutting across the lines of different operators, without that kind of capability, it's easier to have a disconnected response than to have a coordinated and properly connected response."


Chertoff said that shortly after the DHS was created, President George W Bush [Images] had issued a Homeland Security Directive which "put the Secretary in the position of the operational incident manager in the case of a terrorist attack or natural disaster of significant consequence."


"The purpose of doing this was to recognise that while the White House guides policy, the operational planning, training and execution needs to be in a department and the conception was that the Department of Homeland Security wouldn't control the other departments but that there would be someone who would be saddled with a central responsibility to make sure all of the components of the operators were being synchronised and working well together."


Chertoff said, "This is, of course, a reflection of what they call the Incident Management System which has been adopted in many states as their way of dealing with incidents at the state level. It's a recognition of the fact that again crisis management and consequence management are part of a spectrum. When you're dealing with a potential terrorist attack, for example, you are simultaneously looking at how you prevent further attacks, how do you protect against the attacks that are underway, and how do you respond and mitigate the attacks that have occurred."


He said that "if you don't bring all these elements together, what you have is a disconnected response and it's that kind of disconnection that causes the kinds of problems that are often complained about when there's a terrorist attack and a failure to effectively respond."


Chertoff then mentioned several potential threats and attacks that were pre-empted by doing "it the right way, when we do have properly coordinated response on an operational basis."


He said that in July 2006, when there were questions about "the safety of Americans living in Lebanon during the war between Hezbollah and Israel," the DHS had worked in a coordinated way with several agencies 'using this incident management construct'. The DHS had been able "to facilitate the repatriation of Americans who had to leave Lebanon literally under the stress of fire fights, in order to make sure they were not engulfed in the struggle between Hezbollah and Israel," he said.


At a breakfast meeting with reporters and editors of the Christian Science Monitor, Chertoff made the same arguments, once again bringing up the Mumbai terror incidents and the lack of coordination between the fire and police departments, and arguing that "when you look at a crisis or an emergency, you cannot stovepipe your emergency response and your police response. You have to have a coordinated plan and coordinated execution."


"And, that's why what we've done in terms of joint planning, incident management, integrating prevention response, is to my mind the best way to minimise the risk of a Mumbai type attack."


He said that the DHS would draw lessons from the Mumbai attack, particularly since it was a seaborne assault with terrorists using sophisticated technology and hijacking fishing boats to come ashore on rubber dinghies.


Chertoff said in this regard, the DHS would ramp up its 'small boat strategy' which it had started 18 months ago. "We just didn't wake up because of what happened in Mumbai. We've got a general aviation strategy we have unrolled, and these things obviously are not finished, but we've launched them off to a good start."


"Obviously, we are still fully unpacking the lessons of Mumbai," he said, but argued that 'the key is you want to minimise the risk by having good intelligence and by having effective response, because effective response in a low signature attacks, meaning one that doesn't give a lot of intelligence warning in advance, is your best bet for mitigation."


Asked if his analysts have identified anything out of the Mumbai incident that he believed requires immediate attention, Chertoff said, "When I do an analysis with the bureau, we're going to disseminate what we see as the lessons of Mumbai."


"We need to recognise that technology is an enabler for terrorism," Chertoff said and referred to reports "about how terrorists were able to use everything from watching TV to cell phones, to other kinds of technological tools to advance their schemes."

[Rudradev]

Only by carrying out successful strikes against Paki Gov facilities, ISI HQ and TSPA GHQ in Islamabad could anything really be achieved. But who really believes that the fatcats of the GOI would ever make such a move, knowing that the Pakis would seek to target Lutyen's Delhi in retaliation? George Friedman believes it is unlikely that the Pakis could successfully hit Delhi, at least with the TSPAF, but I can't see our tremulous leaders being willing to chance it.

Rudradev,

A strike on ISI HQ and TSPA GHQ and hitting Islamabad would constitute crossing the so-called Paki redlines and that's likely to escalate into a nuclear exchange. Of course there are various theories of how Pak is nuke-nood or how Uncle has his hands over the button etc. However, policy can hardly be made based on assumptions. The Mumbai carnage, reprehensible as it has been, is not worth a nuclear exchange at this stage IMHO.

There are many Pakis including folks in ISI who want a Nuke exchange. They probably think that they will go straight to their 72 in heaven. No point in trying to oblige them.

The point to note is that an IAF bombing raid, even if it just kills a few goats (and makes some of the Abduls heart broken for having lost a dear one), has a very symbolic value not only for Pakistan but the rest of the world.

It shows that India, like the US can and will retaliate and thus brings a new equation into the Paki calculus of escalatory attacks on India. And such an attack will also drive the final nail into the coffin of that discredited India-Pak equal, equal theory peddled by the Brits since '47.

Another point: It also sets a precedent for Indian politicians as well. If, God forbid, a few years down the line there's another terror attack of this magnitude the public opinion pressure of punitive retaliation will be too much of the party in power to resist. So an entirely new dynamic comes into play in the Paki strategy of thousand cuts.

However, such a raid(s) has to be followed up by intense covert and overt operations not only to hurt Pakistan militarily but economically as well. Kill them economically and you kill them militarily as well. Make sure the Agricultural department of the TSPA presides over valueless land/defence colonies.

JMT

Well, you're the one making the assumption that a single decapitation strike against ISI HQ will in fact cross a "redline" and precipitate a nuclear exchange. Why is that a sounder assumption to base foreign policy on, than the belief that Pakistan is "nuke-nood"? If one looks at every existing incline as a slippery slope with nuclear devastation at the bottom, then one is effectively paralyzed into never walking another step. At that point, it doesn't matter whether the Pakistanis have nukes or not... they've effectively and permanently deterred us from ever retaliating to their sponsorship of terrorism in any meaningful way.

The Mumbai massacres may not be worth a nuclear exchange to you. However, the certainty of many more terrorist massacres to come from beneath the assumed safety of a nuclear umbrella is what matters here. Taking out ISI HQ will not bring back the dead of Mumbai but it will exact a real and unprecedented cost. It will send a number of ISI people to their 72 without initiating a nuclear exchange, and more importantly, it will give a larger number of surviving ISI people reason to consider that the rules of the game have changed dramatically.

Today, we extrapolate the readiness to embrace death of the actual fedayeen terrorist, to the entire Pakistani establishment... that is part of the effectiveness of suicide terrorism as a tactic.

Who exactly was willing to meet their 72 in the days following November 26th? Somewhere between 10 and 30 Lashkar-e-Taiba foot soldiers who were regarded by their own superiors as expendable martyrs. Neither Zaki-ur-Rehman Lakhvi, nor Hafiz Sayeed, nor any uniformed staffer of the ISI put himself at risk in the way those foot soldiers did. Nor have they ever. They sit beneath what they know the rest of the world assumes is a nuclear umbrella, and leave the shaheed-ing to lowly grunts with nothing to lose.

Our error is to confuse the shallow bravado of a TSPA brownpants general displaying a poster of a nuclear mushroom cloud in his office (and calling it "Delhi" or whatever), with the indoctrination that caused a village youth from Okara to go on a suicide mission for the LeT. We assume, given the eagerness of the follower to die for Islam, that the leader shares a similar degree of selfless commitment... "all those Muslims/Pakis are fanatics onlee, so don't mess with them".

If that had been true we'd have had the nuclear exchange by now... but we haven't, have we?

As for the IAF bombing raid against a cluster of mud huts in POK, most certainly it will have symbolic value. The question is, what will it symbolize?

To the Abduls who train in those camps, it will symbolize another reason to believe in their own invincibility... our enemies can drop ineffectual noisemakers from shiny planes till the goats come home, but that only shows their powerlessness to stop the march of the Ummah!

To the Paki on the street it will symbolize proof that Hafiz Sayeed was right all along... that the Hunood and the Amrikis are indeed working together to destroy Pakistan. First the Amriki predators, and now the Hunood Su-30s dropping ordinance on our sacred Muslim soil, etc. etc. End result, more popular support for the LeT, and greater unity among the Pakis to decelerate the process of their fragmentation.

To the Americans, especially if the bombing raid is carried out with their prior clearance, it will symbolize the craven unwillingess of India to lift a finger in her own defense without their okay and go-ahead... and then only to lift that finger to the prescribed extent, however ineffective it may be.

This is what it will symbolize to the rest of the world, particularly the western world, as well. They will see India as a nation which has been so thoroughly bought and paid for by the forces of economic globalization that, even given the massacre of its citizens, it will abjectly beg the indulgence of the international community before launching even a completely empty gesture of retaliation. Some "counterweight to China!"

To the Generals in Islamabad, it will reiterate that their policies are on track and that they have nothing to lose by pursuing them. Trafficking in symbols is what they do best, after all. Give the Americans an occasional "Al-Qaeda #3", and you can have billions of dollars in aid while continuing to support the Taliban. Give NATO the nudge-nudge-wink-wink for an occasional Predator strike that kills troublesome Agency villagers, and you will receive F-16s, AMRAAMs and so on for use against India. Tacitly agree with the Americans to allow a symbolic Indian airstrike against some mud huts, and you will gain.... who knows what? Internationalization and Western diplomatic support for Kashmir? I can't even begin to guess, but you can be sure they will extract a hefty pound of flesh from the Americans for it. Which the Americans, in turn, will extract from us.

The Generals can continue to refill their trough, ad infinitum, by continuing to export terrorism; and all without risking a hair of their own heads. THAT is what needs to change, and a decapitation strike on Islamabad GHQ and ISI HQ is the only thing that can change it.

Finally, to the common Indian citizen, craving retribution of some sort in the wake of the atrocity visited upon his countrymen... a "symbolic airstrike" against PoK mud huts will symbolize the entirely illusory political will of the Italian National Congress government to take a "tough line against terror".

This criminal administration, which coerced India's anti-terrorism agencies to waste time and effort on witch hunts against their political opponents, will become heroes overnight for authorizing a wag-the-dog sortie of no military or diplomatic consequence whatsoever. The English-language media, their ever-willing partners in the smear campaign against Hindu spiritual leaders and distinguished army officers, will milk it for all it's allegedly worth... lauding its "success" vis-a-vis the BJP's withdrawal after Parakram. Of course, Parakram at least achieved the strategic space necessary to conduct the first successful assembly elections in Jammu & Kashmir in a decade. The US-authorized Maino airstrike won't even yield that much of value.

However, it will probably win this pack of traitors another general election. As the Italian National Congress knows, you don't have to fool all the people all the time... you just have to fool them as long as election season lasts, and then you can happily get back to selling out the country's interests for another five years.

And that's why I say an airstrike such as you describe, and such as Condi Rice is reportedly prepared to "allow" us, is in fact worse than doing nothing.

I agree with your notion that it will set a precedent for retaliation... exactly the wrong precedent. It will show that we have learned to accept the destruction of uninhabited campsites as "effective retaliation" for the massacre of our citizens, just as the Americans have learned to be content with "Al-Qaeda #3s" as returns on their investment in Pakistan. It will be a symbol not of our resolve, but of our pusillanimity when confronted with terrorism, and of our worthlessness as a strategic player on the geopolitical game board.

You suggest following up this empty raid with "covert operations" to hurt Pakistan economically and militarily. Yet, whenever a concrete plan emerges, the fear of crossing Pakistani "redlines" is always cited as a reason to stay our hand. Honestly, the longer we dread the crossing of those "redlines" as an unthinkable eventuality, the longer we will continue to be paralyzed into inaction, no matter how terrible the provocation might be.

So what will it take for us to re-evaluate the existence and malleability of those "redlines?" Will it happen if the next set of Jihadis to attack an Indian city is armed with a nuclear warhead? In the aftermath, having that much less to lose, we might be that much more willing to act in a consequential manner.

[Johann]

If I had been wearing the 'pakhol hat' and was under pressure, I could revive multiple causes by attacking Ayni, with some impunity.

I am not so sure of NO Tajik connection. The CAR cause is a viable interim cause that can damage IAF cheaply.

Ani,

Remember, the Russians never left Tajikistan, and are still there although in fewer numbers. They helped repel a number of jihadi attacks from the Afghan side in the 1990s. They, and the supply lines to the Northern Alliance from Tajikistan have been a potential jihadi target all these years.

It has been over a decade since the Tajik civil war ended, and there have been no significant terrorist incidents. The civil war essentially ended when Afghan and Pakistani jihadi groups lost access to the Tajik border.

The most active jihadis in the area are from Uzbekistan's Fergana valley - currently most of them are in FATA/NWFP.

While an attack on Ayni is possible, it would be a challenge. Even if an attack took place, I would be surprised if it seriously affected flight ops from the base. It isnt exactly like Colombo.

[Airavat]

Maulana Wahiduddin Khan

But let us first understand the ideology of violence that is resulting in terrorism. This ideology is that Islam is a political system and that it is the duty of all Muslims to establish the political rule of Islam in the world. This kind of thinking was not prevalent during the time of Prophet Muhammad or his early companions. It is a later invention. This was developed over the last few centuries by a handful of people and has become widespread in the Muslim world today. This has led to the present-day violence.

A large number of Muslims, especially many among the youth, have become obsessed with this ideology and are trying to establish the political rule of Islam, thinking it to be their ticket to paradise. Having failed to achieve this objective of establishing Islamic rule by peaceful methods, they have started resorting to suicide bombing. The idea being that if we cannot eliminate non-Islamic rule, then let us at least destabilise it and pave the way for Islamic rule.

Being a Maulana it's not surprising that he should seek to shield his religion from the badge of terror. But at least he is honest about where the current scourge of terrorism originates....from the Islamist ideologies of the 19th century.

This admission makes him better than the psecs and FHLs, looking for all sorts of excuses like Iraq, Ayodhya, Afghanistan, Kashmir, Gujarat, and what not as a justification for Pakistani terrorism.

Also makes the Maulana a more honest person than that Javed Jaffrey character. We cannot have an effective Indian response to terrorism if people shy away from stating facts.

[amit]

Well, you're the one making the assumption that a single decapitation strike against ISI HQ will in fact cross a "redline" and precipitate a nuclear exchange. Why is that a sounder assumption to base foreign policy on, than the belief that Pakistan is "nuke-nood"? If one looks at every existing incline as a slippery slope with nuclear devastation at the bottom, then one is effectively paralyzed into never walking another step. At that point, it doesn't matter whether the Pakistanis have nukes or not... they've effectively and permanently deterred us from ever retaliating to their sponsorship of terrorism in any meaningful way.

The Mumbai massacres may not be worth a nuclear exchange to you. However, the certainty of many more terrorist massacres to come from beneath the assumed safety of a nuclear umbrella is what matters here. Taking out ISI HQ will not bring back the dead of Mumbai but it will exact a real and unprecedented cost. It will send a number of ISI people to their 72 without initiating a nuclear exchange, and more importantly, it will give a larger number of surviving ISI people reason to consider that the rules of the game have changed dramatically.

Today, we extrapolate the readiness to embrace death of the actual fedayeen terrorist, to the entire Pakistani establishment... that is part of the effectiveness of suicide terrorism as a tactic.

Who exactly was willing to meet their 72 in the days following November 26th? Somewhere between 10 and 30 Lashkar-e-Taiba foot soldiers who were regarded by their own superiors as expendable martyrs. Neither Zaki-ur-Rehman Lakhvi, nor Hafiz Sayeed, nor any uniformed staffer of the ISI put himself at risk in the way those foot soldiers did. Nor have they ever. They sit beneath what they know the rest of the world assumes is a nuclear umbrella, and leave the shaheed-ing to lowly grunts with nothing to lose.

Our error is to confuse the shallow bravado of a TSPA brownpants general displaying a poster of a nuclear mushroom cloud in his office (and calling it "Delhi" or whatever), with the indoctrination that caused a village youth from Okara to go on a suicide mission for the LeT. We assume, given the eagerness of the follower to die for Islam, that the leader shares a similar degree of selfless commitment... "all those Muslims/Pakis are fanatics onlee, so don't mess with them".

If that had been true we'd have had the nuclear exchange by now... but we haven't, have we?

As for the IAF bombing raid against a cluster of mud huts in POK, most certainly it will have symbolic value. The question is, what will it symbolize?

To the Abduls who train in those camps, it will symbolize another reason to believe in their own invincibility... our enemies can drop ineffectual noisemakers from shiny planes till the goats come home, but that only shows their powerlessness to stop the march of the Ummah!

To the Paki on the street it will symbolize proof that Hafiz Sayeed was right all along... that the Hunood and the Amrikis are indeed working together to destroy Pakistan. First the Amriki predators, and now the Hunood Su-30s dropping ordinance on our sacred Muslim soil, etc. etc. End result, more popular support for the LeT, and greater unity among the Pakis to decelerate the process of their fragmentation.

To the Americans, especially if the bombing raid is carried out with their prior clearance, it will symbolize the craven unwillingess of India to lift a finger in her own defense without their okay and go-ahead... and then only to lift that finger to the prescribed extent, however ineffective it may be.

This is what it will symbolize to the rest of the world, particularly the western world, as well. They will see India as a nation which has been so thoroughly bought and paid for by the forces of economic globalization that, even given the massacre of its citizens, it will abjectly beg the indulgence of the international community before launching even a completely empty gesture of retaliation. Some "counterweight to China!"

To the Generals in Islamabad, it will reiterate that their policies are on track and that they have nothing to lose by pursuing them. Trafficking in symbols is what they do best, after all. Give the Americans an occasional "Al-Qaeda #3", and you can have billions of dollars in aid while continuing to support the Taliban. Give NATO the nudge-nudge-wink-wink for an occasional Predator strike that kills troublesome Agency villagers, and you will receive F-16s, AMRAAMs and so on for use against India. Tacitly agree with the Americans to allow a symbolic Indian airstrike against some mud huts, and you will gain.... who knows what? Internationalization and Western diplomatic support for Kashmir? I can't even begin to guess, but you can be sure they will extract a hefty pound of flesh from the Americans for it. Which the Americans, in turn, will extract from us.

The Generals can continue to refill their trough, ad infinitum, by continuing to export terrorism; and all without risking a hair of their own heads. THAT is what needs to change, and a decapitation strike on Islamabad GHQ and ISI HQ is the only thing that can change it.

Finally, to the common Indian citizen, craving retribution of some sort in the wake of the atrocity visited upon his countrymen... a "symbolic airstrike" against PoK mud huts will symbolize the entirely illusory political will of the Italian National Congress government to take a "tough line against terror".

This criminal administration, which coerced India's anti-terrorism agencies to waste time and effort on witch hunts against their political opponents, will become heroes overnight for authorizing a wag-the-dog sortie of no military or diplomatic consequence whatsoever. The English-language media, their ever-willing partners in the smear campaign against Hindu spiritual leaders and distinguished army officers, will milk it for all it's allegedly worth... lauding its "success" vis-a-vis the BJP's withdrawal after Parakram. Of course, Parakram at least achieved the strategic space necessary to conduct the first successful assembly elections in Jammu & Kashmir in a decade. The US-authorized Maino airstrike won't even yield that much of value.

However, it will probably win this pack of traitors another general election. As the Italian National Congress knows, you don't have to fool all the people all the time... you just have to fool them as long as election season lasts, and then you can happily get back to selling out the country's interests for another five years.

And that's why I say an airstrike such as you describe, and such as Condi Rice is reportedly prepared to "allow" us, is in fact worse than doing nothing.

I agree with your notion that it will set a precedent for retaliation... exactly the wrong precedent. It will show that we have learned to accept the destruction of uninhabited campsites as "effective retaliation" for the massacre of our citizens, just as the Americans have learned to be content with "Al-Qaeda #3s" as returns on their investment in Pakistan. It will be a symbol not of our resolve, but of our pusillanimity when confronted with terrorism, and of our worthlessness as a strategic player on the geopolitical game board.

You suggest following up this empty raid with "covert operations" to hurt Pakistan economically and militarily. Yet, whenever a concrete plan emerges, the fear of crossing Pakistani "redlines" is always cited as a reason to stay our hand. Honestly, the longer we dread the crossing of those "redlines" as an unthinkable eventuality, the longer we will continue to be paralyzed into inaction, no matter how terrible the provocation might be.

So what will it take for us to re-evaluate the existence and malleability of those "redlines?" Will it happen if the next set of Jihadis to attack an Indian city is armed with a nuclear warhead? In the aftermath, having that much less to lose, we might be that much more willing to act in a consequential manner.

Rudradev,

Your argument for an attack on the ISI HQ is a powerful one and believe me at a personal level I would welcome it as much as you would.

The problem is such an attack will still be used by the Hafiz Sayeed types to shout from the rooftops and mosques that they were right all along and this was a Hundoo-Yahood conspiracy. The same as a bombing run on mud huts.

What is important is get the Pukes to understand that attacking India has its costs and the question is would that hurt be more effective by blasting the ISI HQ in one grand slam bang or would the hurt be more through a more long term and less glamorous covert operations which aims at target assassinations and measures to screw the Paki economy?

One will never know for sure but annectodal evidence seems to point out that Benazir decided to withdraw support for the Khalistanis because of the cost that was being extracted by RaW covert operations in Pakistan. One reason why Gujral was suckered into dismantling the covert infrastructure in what must rank as one of the most monumental stupidities committed by the Indian leadership.

My point about the bombing raids was more as a precedent for the Indian leadership in future. Lets disabuse ourselves of the notion that a bombing raid by itself, be it on empty mud huts in POK or at the ISI HQ, will deter future attacks like Mumbai or the Parliament.

What will deter it is when the Army Jarnails realise that such attacks are hurting their pockets and endangering the lives of their families, that's when the real crackdown on jehadis will start in Pakistan.

And that can only be achieved over a long term covert operation.

JMT.

[Nesoj]

Has Indian Army already entered Islamabad ???

I suddenly notice the Tricolour flying proudly on PDF -



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