Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

[Rishi]

Hello
M.V Iran Shojjat, Exocet through the Engine room, no deaths, vessel rescued.
M.V Iran Itihad - Vessel sunk, all saved
M.V Iran Nazr - Vessel beached, refloated and no lives lost.

Only one injury, a dumb goy who lost his thumb trying to fire a safety rocket (ex-IN Cdr.)

Location: Buoy no.9 on the channel to Bandar Khomeini.

Ah, the Merchant Marine, and the Iraqi Super Etendards and the Tanker Wars of 1984-87! Interesting stuff!


(all Googleable)

[sum]

RAWALPINDI: A Pakistani lawyer C M Farooque claimed that many people, including Ajmal Kasab, were arrested before 2006 from Kathmandu by the Indian agencies with the help of Nepalese forces.

He said Ajmal Kasab went to the Napalese capital on a business tour. His application regarding his arrest was lying pending in the Nepalese Supreme Court in which a reply was sought from Nepalese forces and Indian High Commission.

And one always wonders that no more spin on a story is possible?

Got to hand it to the Pakis for their creativity...pity they dont use it for more productive things than kufr-murdering.

[Tilak]

Hello
M.V Iran Shojjat, Exocet through the Engine room, no deaths, vessel rescued.
M.V Iran Itihad - Vessel sunk, all saved
M.V Iran Nazr - Vessel beached, refloated and no lives lost.

Only one injury, a dumb goy who lost his thumb trying to fire a safety rocket (ex-IN Cdr.)

Location: Buoy no.9 on the channel to Bandar Khomeini.

Yeah right, shiver your timbers, babe.

Date Area Attacker Unit/Crew Weapon Victim Unit/Nation

2Jan84 Khowr-e Musa SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 Iran Emamat Cyprus (CTL)
1Feb84 Bandar-e Khomeyni SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 Skaros Cyprus (damaged)
1Feb84 Bandar-e Khomeyni SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 City of Rio ? (CTL)
1Feb84 Bandar-e Khomeyni SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 FTE Neptune ? (damaged)
16Feb84 Khowr-e Musa SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 al-Tariq Liberia (damaged)
16Feb84 Khowr-e Musa SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 al-Tariq (II) Liberia (damaged)
1Mar84 Bandar-e Khomeyni SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 A.P.J. Ambika India (sunk)
1Mar84 Bandar-e Khomeyni SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 Sema G Turkey (CTL)
1Feb84 Khowr-e Musa SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 Charming UK (stranded/CTL)
1Mar84 Bushehr Roads SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 Iran Eslami Iran (damaged)
27Mar84 40nm SW Khark Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 (FTE) Filikon L Greece (damaged)
27Mar84 al-Marjan/55nm SW Khark Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Heyang Ilho South Korea (sunk)
27Mar84 Bandar-e Khomeyni SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 Iapetos (II) Iran (CTL)
29Mar84 Khowr-e Musa SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 Iran Dahr Iran (damaged)
18Apr84 Khark Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Rover Star ? (damaged)
25Apr84 100nm NE Bahrain Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Safina al-Arab Saudi Arabia (CTL)
27Apr84 Khark Super Etendard ?? FS AM.39 (FTE) Sea Eagle Liberia (damaged)
7May84 70nm SE Khark Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 al-Abood Saudi Arabia (CTL)
13May84 Khark Super Etendard IrAF 2xAM.39 Esperanza II (missile trap) Panama (CTL)
13May84 Khark Super Etendard ??FS/IrAF AM.39 Tabriz Iran (damaged)
13May84 85nm N Bahrain F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF 20mm/AIM-9P Umm Casbah Kuwait (damaged)
14May84 Khark Super Etendard ??FS/IrAF AM.39 Tabriz (II) Iran (damaged)
14May84 85nm N Bahrain F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF AGM-65A Bahrah Kuwait (damaged)
16May84 9nm N al-Jubayl F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF AIM- Yanbu Pride Kuwait (damaged)
18May84 Khowr-e Musa SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 Fidelity Panama (sunk)
24May84 S Bushehr F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF AGM-65A Chemical Venture Liberia (damaged)
26May84 Bandar-e Khomeyni SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 Savoy Dean Liberia (damaged)
31May84 Khark Super Etendard ?? FS AM.39 Atlanticos Liberia (damaged)
3Jun84 40nm S Khark Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Buyuk Hun Turkey (CTL)
3Jun84 Khowr-e Musa Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Giantkim Panama (beached/CTL)
10Jun84 Lavan Island F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF AGM-65A Kazimah Kuwait (damaged)
??Jun84 ? Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Dashaki ? (sunk)
24Jun84 Khark Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Alexander the Great ULCC Greece (CTL)
27Jun84 ?nm S Khark Super Etendard ??FS/IrAF AM.39 Tiburon Liberia (CTL)
27Jun84 ?nm S Khark F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF 2xAIM-9P Tiburon Switzerland/Liberia (CTL)
1Jul84 Khowr-e Musa SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 Alexandra Dyo BC Greece (CTL)
1Jul84 Khowr-e Musa SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 al-Kabeer (Note 7) Panama (stranded/CTL)
1Jul84 Khark SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 (miss) al-Tahir Cyprus (collision/CTL)
1Jul84 Khark SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 (miss) Five Oaks BC Panama (collision)
1Jul84 Khark SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 (miss) Sitia Venture BC Panama (collision)
1Jul84 Khark SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 (miss) Erne BC Panama (collision)
2Jul84 Khowr-e Musa SA.321GV IrAF 2xAM.39 Wonjin FR Korea/NIOC (CTL)
5Jul84 Lavan Island F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF 2xAGM-65A Primrose Japan (damaged)
10Jul84 85nm N Bahrain AB.212ASW IRINA AS.12 British Renown Gibraltar (damaged)
13Jul84 Khark Super Etendard ?? FS AM.39 (miss) Iran Eteghad Iran (damaged)
7Aug84 Khark Super Etendard ?? FS AM.39 (miss) Friendship L Cyprus (damaged)
15Aug84 Ras as Tannurah F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF AGM-65A (miss) Johar Pakistan
18Aug84 85nm N Bahrain F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF AGM-65A Endeavour Kuwait (damaged)
23Aug84 Khark Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Rana Saudi Arabia (sunk)
24Aug84 Khark Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Amethyst (TS) Cyprus (CTL)
27Aug84 Ras as Tannurah F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF AGM-65A Cleo I Panama (damaged)
??Aug84 Bushehr Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Iran Javad Iran (CTL)
1Sep84 Bandar-e Khomeyni Super Etendard ?? FS AM.39 (FTE) Jami II (TS) Iran (damaged)
11Sep84 50nm S Khark Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 St. Tobias Liberia (CTL)
12Sep84 Khowr-e Musa Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Good Wind Panama (CTL)
12Sep84 Khowr-e Musa SA.321GV ?? FS AM.39 Abib Iran (damaged)
16Sep84 ? F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF AGM-65A Med Heron Liberia (damaged)
16Sep84 ? F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF AGM-65A Royal Colombo South Korea (damaged)
21Sep84 20nm S Khark Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Seatrans-21 Germany (sunk)
8Oct84 40nm S Khark Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 World Knight Liberia (CTL)
11Oct84 Bahrain F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF AGM-65A Jag Pari India (damaged)
12Oct84 60nm S Khark Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Sivand Iran (CTL)
12Oct84 Qatar F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF AIM-9P Gaz Fountain Panama (sunk)
15Oct84 Khowr-e Musa Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Sivand (II) Iran (CTL)
16Oct84 Khowr-e Musa - - Mine Rover Star (II) Iran (CTL)
19Oct84 Qatar F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF AIM-9P Pacific Protector Panama (CTL)
25Oct84 ? Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Anis ? (CTL)
25Oct84 Khark Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Good Lord ? (CTL)
3Dec84 40nm SW Bushehr Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Minotaur ULCC Cyprus (CTL)
3Dec84 Khark Mirage F.1EQ-5 ??FS/IrAF AM.39 (miss) - - (miss)
3Dec84 Khark Mirage F.1EQ-5 ??FS/IrAF AM.39 (miss) - - (miss)
8Dec84 E Bahrain F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF AIM-9L Tariq Kuwait (damaged)
9Dec84 Khark Super Etendard ?? FS AM.39 (FTE) BT Investor Bahamas (damaged)
15Dec84 Khark Super Etendard ?? FS AM.39 Ninemia Greece (damaged)
16Dec84 Khark Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Ninemia (II) Iran (CTL)
17Dec84 Khark Super Etendard ?? FS AM.39 (FTE) Aegis Cosmic Greece (damaged)
21Dec84 Khark Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Thorshavet Norway (CTL)
21Dec84 31nm S Khark Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Magnolia Liberia (CTL)
25Dec84 Qatar F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF AIM-9L Kanchenjunga India (damaged)
26Dec84 Qatar F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF AIM-9L Aragon Spain (damaged)

Mind Id-ing (IMO no. etc..) M.V Iran Shojjat and M.V Iran Nazr, and back up your source ?

I will gladly provide my source..

[shiv]

]

Hello

Please follow the link below to read a very good analysis on the recent terror attacks
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/de ... ndhati-roy

Best regards

Very good. But too long Too boring. Too pointless.

This article fails to fire me up or rile me up because ARoy has lost herself in her love for words. Strangely, she accuses TV channels and those whose politics she dislikes of being breathless and hyperventilating.

In her own way ARoy has done exactly the same thing.

The Mumbai attacks have attracted so much press that single sound bytes and graphic images grab attention better than long winded lamentations in slow motion that ARoy has once again demonstrated in this article.

She accuses India and Pakistan and the world of having done nothing new. And in doing so she too says and does nothing new.

ARoy writes well and she writes powerfully. But when the writing does not come up with anything new - and does so at a time when new things are being said out in the open by new and different people hitherto unseen in the media, ARoy has firmly placed herself in the back seat, out of sight and not in control.

[Rishi]

• 1Mar84 Bandar-e Khomeyni SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 A.P.J. Ambika India (sunk)
  11Oct84 Bahrain F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF AGM-65A Jag Pari India (damaged)
  25Dec84 Qatar F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF AIM-9L Kanchenjunga India (damaged)

Woah. I know this is going off topic, but any Idea what India's reaction was that time?

[harbans]

Hi folks, may sound a little strange for those that work out of dangerous areas, but Suneel is not talking without the experience Persian gulf area. Talk to Merchant Mariners who've been that area..classified as War Zone, and their experiences will be a lot different and there are many that have done that route. Merchant marine casualities have always tended to be higher than Naval Forces casualities even in times of war. So it always makes sense to be prudent, sensitive and a bit respectful. Many of them have seen much more of war than you can imagine.

However i do disagree with his views on A Roy and the Guardian.

[nsa_tanay]

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/asham ... ll/397513/

Ashamed of NSG role: K P S Gill
KOlkata: “I am deeply ashamed of the role of the NSG,” said Punjab Police chief former K P S Gill, who has been credited with ending militant activities in Punjab, said in Kolkata on Thursday.

The operation to free the Taj Hotel lasted for over 60 hours and still the commandoes failed to nab any of the hostages alive, said Gill, highlighting that a number of lives were also lost in the operation. “I am reminded of Operation Blackthunder which was a very successful NSG operation under me at the Golden Temple. The terrorists surrendered and not a single life was lost,” he said.

“If 10 terrorists can hold the entire city of Mumbai to ransom for a whole of three days, I must admit that whoever is training these boys, hand picking them and motivating them, is definitely doing a good job,” Gill added.

Gill also raised questions on the role of the ATS and the eventual death of the ATS chief Hemant Karkare. “I feel that the quick reaction teams formed by the police is not the right way forward. The idea of quick reaction teams is specific to the Army and when the police starts thinking like the Army, it is always a great blunder,” the former DGP said. He added that three senior officers should not have been present in the same car while chasing the terrorists. “ Once the ATC chief was killed, the whole team was distorted,” he added.

[amit]

However i do disagree with his views on A Roy and the Guardian.

Harbans,(and Shiv ji who commented on this):

Regarding our very own "serial explainst" A Roy's puke in Guardian, even a liberal democrats-supporting paper like New Republic has this to say about her and her "puke-ticle":

(The other problem with making Kashmir independent is that it submits the subcontinent to another religious partition, which, as Roy recognizes, was exactly the problem in the first place). Maybe this is what makes her piece so unsettling, even if the essay counts as further evidence that she should stick to fiction.

[bart]

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/asham ... ll/397513/

Ashamed of NSG role: K P S Gill
KOlkata: “I am deeply ashamed of the role of the NSG,” said Punjab Police chief former K P S Gill, who has been credited with ending militant activities in Punjab, said in Kolkata on Thursday.

Whatever context he said that in, those are extremely harsh words. He needs to be more constructive in his criticism, or at least voice such opinions in the proper circles rather than to the media. He has over the years been accepted among the public as an expert on anti-terrorism operations so his statement, while well meaning does more harm than good.

[madhum]

So we are back to square one. What next..

Pakistan not to ban Jamaat-ud-Dawa
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Paki ... 838907.cms

[chetak]

Somebody do something about that Burkha Dutt girl!

On 'We the People':
"We don't want to become a nation of war mongers",
"Cricket is a casualty",
"People to people contact is important"
and lots more...

And thank you Rahul, for that EDIT.

I think she was sandbagged by a gent in the audience who was a survivor from the Taj attack.
His name is Bisham Mansukhani (hope I got it right). He spoke from his heart about what is in all our hearts. His comments were raw and searing.
He creamed her good and proper. He tore down her carefully constructed facade. She was shell shocked.
She and her pakistani senator friend, (who was in the audience and kept on bleating endlessly about the LTTE.) were at a loss for words.

[amit]

MJA is a closet Islamist. To understand him go to past until Babri destruction and his reasoning for opposing Nuke deal. I would not get fooled by shades of objectivity that these types show just to swing along with the public outcry. Wait until elections then you can see how suddenly he will turn to look like Rajdeep Sardesai.

muppalla, I am aware of MKA's leanings.
but that doesn't discount the fact that this particular article was mostly reasonable.
btw, I've read his writings for sometime now and he is certainly not as lowly or unethical as sardesai.
he does adhere to some sense of reason most of the time.

as an aside, we should always try to shift the fishbones and eat the fish, discarding nutritious fishes because they have fishbones is a wasteful habit we can ill afford.

Rahul, Muppalla,

I'm no particular fan of MJ but let me tell you he's no closet Islamist. The more appropriate description would be a jhollawala leftist "liberal".

He grew up in era when Leftism was at its peak in Kolkata and got influenced by it like most other impressionable folks of his generation. And his talk about Muslim "discrimination", "Hindu fundamentalism" etc all stems from this "leftist" mindset. If you call him a closet "Islamist" you have to do that for every Leftist including N Ram and even Prakash Karat, Yechuri et al.

Do note that when it has been time to stand up and be counted as an Indian, MJ has not been found wanting. His response to BBC is a case in point.

As bit of trivia, if I'm not mistaken Akbar's family hails from the Bhadreswar area of Hooghly district and his father was also a very well-known secular individual.

Having said that I would also like to add that most of the time I can't find myself agreeing to the positions he takes on various issues in his articles. But he takes those positions as an Left-leaning Indian and not as and "Islamist" trying to peddle a hate-filled Islamic agenda.

[Philip]

At this moment of crisis,we must not fight amongst ourselves and allow the enemy to enjoy our divisions.The country for better or worse at this time has elected leaders,sorely wanting in leadership and guts though it may be.Those wanting change of eladership can do so at the next hustings.Having said that,we must put pressure upon our own govt. and decisionmakers of the day,that obfuscation,procrastination and and spin is beyond contempt and unacceptable.The people cannot be fooled anymore.Therefore,we must devise methods and strategies where we as Indians in our groups/communities/institutions can come together for the sake of the nation.

As I see it,we on BR can contribute immensely in the international arena especially by helping winning the Propaganda War.This war as I said at the time of the Kargil War,is as important as winning the war on the battlefield.The Russians have just experienced the drawback of being subjected to adverse propaganda during the Georgian spat which is only now being reversed.Therefore,when respected Indian journos like MJ Akbar,who has an international reputation, go for the British Bullshit/Biased Corporation's jugular,we should applaud him and the other journos who are fighting those lelments of the international media trying to trivialise the Mumbai mayhem and the war against India.Therefore we on BR should put together a strategy to "Inform,Educate and Act" as follows.We must dedicate an entire focussed thread/page to exposing Pak as the global epicentre of terror.These are a few ideas .Just saying that "we are against terror" (as if Indians are for terror!),take a pledge,vow,whatever. is meaningless unless "direct action" follows that PUNISHES Pak and those countries /entities that continue to support it.Hence the foll: suggestions.

1.Collect all the evidence from various assorted sources of Pak's complicity in terror and the details on this latest outrage.Identify the key paki indiviuduals who sponsor international terror like retd. Lt.Gen.Hamid Gul,Gen."Ar*se-f**K Pervert Kill-any",current CAS and other members of the Paki establishment.

2.Gather the best writings from the various columnists,journos,service officers,diplomats,etc.,on the duplicity of Pak exposing their chicanery and lies and track record of sponsoring terror. Create a dossier that can be sent to all key foreign institutions/govts./media,etc.

3.The recommendations on what India should do and what the international community must do to punish Pak for its perfidy.

4.We must bombard the international media establishment that still supports Pak demanding that they stop their bullsh*t.We should lobby their MPs,govt.,etc. wherever possible ,providing NRI/PIO organisations with the dossier collected to help them lobby with their govts. to demand "Economic and Military Sanctions" against Pak,bans on the jehadi movements/freezing their accounts abroad and arrests of the key masterminds in the Paki establishment.They should not be able to travel to any civilised country without fear of being arrested for terrorist crimes.

5.If certain countries continue to support pak,then we must threaten a boycott of ntheir goods and services in India and lobby our MPs,corporate bodies to do the same and educate the Indian public about the nations and their companies that still support Pak.During the Kargil War,I managed to frighten one US MNC manufacturer by threatening a boycott from one institutional body which I managed to convince to do so,who wrote to them saying that as the US had imposed sanctions against India,we would likewise do the same with all their products.The speed with which they came to "negotiate" a compromise was vindication of our efforts.
If certain govts. continue to do so then public action is neccesary at the showrooms of their most visible products,like German/US car showrooms,etc.

6.The minimum that our govt. should do and which we should demand is ,
a suspension of all diplomatic relations until Pak hands over to India Dawood & Co.,the accused in the Mumbai terror and others sought for earlier on India's "wanted list".Ban on overflights,visits by Pakistani citizens,sealing of the border with every possible method-land mines,fencing,surveillance,etc..A shoot-to-kill policy of anything that strays into Indian waters,Indian soil or airspace.Boycott nations and their companies that supply Pak with military hardware which is used against India.This is the most important point,as the only method that the Paki military understand is when they can't get new "toys" to use against India.A massive diplomatic campaign at the UN.Non-Aligned meetings and other international fora to tar Pak as black as possibleand project our legitimate interests in taking military action if and when neccessary to destroy the heartland of terror in Pak.

PS:Can we appoint one of more of our "defenders" as coordinator/s?We could also have a member/members in different countries as point men for the same,who will dispense our dossiers to the various instituions/PIO/NRIs for the same purpose.

[kobe]

Hello
M.V Iran Shojjat, Exocet through the Engine room, no deaths, vessel rescued.
M.V Iran Itihad - Vessel sunk, all saved
M.V Iran Nazr - Vessel beached, refloated and no lives lost.

Only one injury, a dumb goy who lost his thumb trying to fire a safety rocket (ex-IN Cdr.)

Location: Buoy no.9 on the channel to Bandar Khomeini.

(all Googleable)

since people are posting off-topic missile hits on their body,
i must admit that i was hit by brahmos no less than 31 times.

i know it works, and its time to hit pakistan with the same thang.

[chetak]

These jokers are again pushing the non state actors s**t to the hilt.

Why are they all pushing the peace process and the composite dialogue so hard. Are we missing something?
They need our money I guess.

http://www.thesundayindian.com/21122008 ... 3&pageno=1


Can Pakistan LeT go?
Will Pakistan's Military and Intelligence establishments play ball? Or are they just biding time to keep the United stateS in good humour? shahid husain reports from inside pakistan

It was only after the intense pressure from India and the United States started to hurt that Pakistan’s security forces finally swooped down on the bases of the terrorist outfit Lashkar-e-Taiyyaba (LeT) and arrested Zaki-ur-Rehman Lakhvi.

Lakhvi – the alleged mastermind of the Mumbai attacks that killed 188 people and injured 327 – is among the 15 LeT operatives who were detained in Pakistan-occupied-Kashmir (PoK) and is said to be the outfit’s “operation commander”. The Pakistani operation came after Lakhvi was identified as the Mumbai attack mastermind by the sole terrorist whom the Indian security forces were able to catch alive in India’s traumatised financial capital.

The LeT – banned by the Pakistan government in 2002 – has since re-surfaced under a new name, Jamaat-ud-Dawa, and is led by Hafiz Saeed. While it has a sizeable presence throughout Pakistan, in PoK it is hyperactive. Small wonder, then, that the outfit, that claims to be involved in charitable works, was among the first to reach the victims of the 2005 earthquake in which over 79,000 people in PoK and the North West Frontier Province (NWFP) were killed. But senior surgeons told TSI that the quacks hired by the Jamaat-ud-Dawa botched up the entire operation, forcing scores of the quake’s injured survivors to undergo amputation. These quacks did not even care to disinfect the wounds before bandaging them.

The Pakistan authorities have also restricted the movements of Maulana Masood Azhar, chief of the outlawed Jaish-e-Mohammad (JeM), by confining him to his multi-storey home in the Model Town area of Bahawalpur in Punjab. The adviser to Interior Minister Rehman Malik said in Islamabad that India had been insistent that Pakistan extradite Maulana Masood Azhar, Dawood Ibrahim and Tiger Memon. All three notorious figures are believed to have enjoyed the patronage of Pakistani intelligence agencies in the past, and are allegedly involved in exporting terror to India and fomenting sectarian violence in Pakistan.

The US government has reacted positively to these arrests, with US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice reportedly happy that, despite Pakistan’s traditional closeness to the LeT, it was now committed to fighting it. Rice charged the group with being involved in not just the Mumbai carnage, but also of moving in “the same circles” as al-Qaeda. Yet at the same time, she seemed to be quite satisfied with the role the Pakistan government had played in the war on terror. “Pakistan is a different place now, with a civilian government and an army leadership working in concert to crush extremism in Pakistan,” she has been quoted as saying.

What Rice did not say, however, but which is known generally, is that the terror raging today is the result of decades of brainwashing of Pakistani youth through both formal and informal indoctrination. It is this deadly mix of classical religious education and militancy that is widely believed to have led to the spawning of worldwide jehad.

But this observation must be qualified. Madrassas are not the only institutions breeding hate and intolerance. The textbooks of the government-run schools do much more than madrassas to spread jehad and lure students by holding out to them the promise of shahadat (martyrdom), according to `The Subtle Subversion – The State of Curricula and Textbooks in Pakistan', a research study published in 2004 by the Sustainable Development Policy Institute, an independent Islamabad thinktank. The study adds, "Over the years, it became apparent that it was in the interest of both the military and the theocracy to promote militarism in society. This confluence of interests now gets reflected in the educational material."

This is precisely why, despite the efforts of both Pakistan’s Chief of Army Staff, General Ashfaq Pervaiz Kayani, who is said to be both secular and a thoroughly professional soldier, and President Asif Ali Zardari (himself a victim of terrorism) to eradicate terrorism, it will be a long time before Pakistan’s general populace, and not just the jehadi elements in the establishment, are re-educated.

Also make a note of this: in its 61 years of existence, Pakistan has been governed through direct military rule for fully 34 years; and all the elected governments have failed miserably to assert themselves. Remember how the populist government of the late Zulfikar Ali Bhutto buckled down under pressure from the right-wing Pakistan National Alliance-led movement of 1977 to appease the mullahs? And declared the minority Ahmedi community to be non-Muslims? It is a measure of the ironies contained in the politics of appeasement that it were these very mullahs who collaborated with military dictator General Ziaul Haq – whose July 1977 coup sent Bhutto to the gallows. And who, thus, enabled jehadi elements to hold Pakistan’s liberal sections hostage.

2

Today, religious extremism and intolerance in Pakistan are not confined to madrassa students. After the 9/11 terror attacks in the US, and the subsequent American bombing of Afghanistan and Iraq, even some of the most highly educated people in Pakistan have come to be influenced by the Taliban and the al-Qaeda. A major American casualty was The Wall Street Journal’s Daniel Pearl, who was trapped in Karachi on January 23, 2002 and brutally murdered by a highly educated al-Qaeda operative. And Ramzi bin al-Shibh, a key member of the Hamburg cell that was behind 9/11, was eventually arrested in Karachi. Psychiatrists say aggression could be a response to frustration; which, if rewarded by society at large, gets reinforced and gains acceptance. This is precisely what is being witnessed today throughout Pakistan, whose government has patronised ethnicity, sectarianism and jehadis down the years. But as we have seen, its strategy of using madrassa students for furthering its geopolitical interests in Afghanistan backfired badly; so that today, try as it might, the state finds itself at a loss every time it tries to rein in the Taliban and other jehadi forces in Pakistan's Federally Administrated Tribal Areas (FATA), as also other parts of it. It cannot have been otherwise considering how thoroughly brainwashed these lethally armed operatives are.

It is no surprise, therefore, that the forward-looking among Pakistan’s intelligentsia want sterner action against the LeT, the JeM and other jehadi outfits. “I think the action against the LeT is under outside pressure, mainly from India and the United States, because now India has provided inconvertible proof of the LeT’s involvement in the Mumbai carnage,” said Dr AH Nayyar, a leading educationist and Fellow of the Islamabad-based Sustainable Development Policy Institute. But he was not certain that the Pakistani establishment was as yet ready to regard the LeT as a threat to Pakistan as well. “The establishment had proceeded against the LeT and the JeM some years ago – then too under outside pressure, and without being convinced that these two entities could harm Pakistan as well. This is why both outfits were able to resume their activities soon after. So till these two begin to be perceived as threats within as well, neither of the two will cease its activities,” Dr Nayyar explained. Dr Nayyar seemed equally pained by the suspension of the peace talks between India and Pakistan, but hoped that it was a temporary phenomenon and that the two neighbours would not fall into the terrorists’ trap.

Dr Syed Jaffer Ahmed, Director, Pakistan Study Centre and a leading political scientist, said: “Being unaware of the exact nature of the crackdown, it is difficult for me to say whether or not it is satisfactory. But what we do know is that in his statement President Zardari made it clear that if non-state elements were involved in the Mumbai attacks stern action would be taken against them.”

But a senior Intelligence officer holds a diametrically opposite view. “There are more than 100 terrorist organisations in India, and only a few of them are Muslim. Since they (India) cannot blame themselves, they are blaming Pakistan. In the Samjhauta Express case too there was an Indian army officer involved. So whether by design or by default, India continues to be interested in painting Pakistan as a rogue state.” Just as well that he was not part of the peace process!

[Philip]

As more an more international VVIPs come out in the open of Pak's perfidy,we should collect all these statements as aprt of an anti=Pak dossier.Here's' the latest from John Kerry.

http://news.in.msn.com/national/article ... id=1717962

ISI grooming Lashkar, Kerry tells Manmohan

New Delhi: Influential American Senator John Kerry on Monday met Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and discussed the Mumbai terror attacks and the situation arising out of it.

During the meeting, Singh is understood to have apprised the senator about the details of attack which were carried out by the Pakistan-based outfit, Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT).

Kerry, a Democrat Senator considered close to President-elect Barack Obama, has said LeT was being nurtured by Pakistan's intelligence agency ISI, which had founded the terror organisation. He has also demanded reform of the ISI.

Kerry's visit to India comes four days after the US Congress asked Pakistan to "root out" all extremist groups operating in the country and ensure that its territory is not used as a "safe haven and training ground" for terrorists.

His visit follows a stream of visits from the United States, including that of Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, Deputy Secretary of State John Negroponte, influential senator John McCain and Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Mike Mullen.

The United States has already mounted pressure on Pakistan to act against terror groups responsible for the attacks in Mumbai.

[Rahul M]

amit, MJA may not be a closet extremist (don't think he is) but he is not an irreligious secular either.
the subjects of his books as also some of his blogs reveal as much.
One good thing about him was that he didn't misuse his position as age editor to push his personal beliefs as many are wont to.

one of the contributors at his blog, u mahesh prabu is fairly right wing in his writings and yet he is allowed to contribute unhindered.

[amit]

amit, MJA may not be a closet extremist (don't think he is) but he is not an irreligious secular either.
the subjects of his books as also some of his blogs reveal as much.
One good thing about him was that he didn't misuse his position as age editor to push his personal beliefs as many are wont to.

one of the contributors at his blog, u mahesh prabu is fairly right wing in his writings and yet he is allowed to contribute unhindered.

Boss,

Being religious isn't by itself bad as long as one doesn't make the transition to being an extremist.

I don't know if MJ, with age has found religion but I can certainly tell you that back in the days when I used to know him in Kolkata - admittedly that's quite far back - he was certainly not religious but was aware of and fairly proud of his Muslim identity.

As far as I can see that by itself is not bad at all, as long as one does not make the easy transition to becoming an Islamist. I would give compliments where they are due; MJ has so far resisted that urge quite well.

Even though I don't agree with most of his POVs, including his stance on the N-deal, I would trust him with the Tricolour as much as any other Indian I know. However, that's personal judgment, I've not wish to impose that on others.

[Rahul M]

Being religious isn't by itself bad as long as one doesn't make the transition to being an extremist.

never implied that it was. in fact the article I posted, which started this discussion is a pretty good one.
/dropping the issue.

[NRao]

2 US sleuths died in attack on Taj hotel

Manan KumarFirst Published : 13 Dec 2008 04:12:00 AM ISTLast Updated : 13 Dec 2008 08:03:28 AM ISTNEW DELHI: The unequivocal and unprecedented support that has come from the US government against Pakistan based terrorists outfits in the aftermath of Mumbai terror attack is not incidental.

Reliable sources in government told Express that two senior espionage officials from the US were among the eight Americans killed in the Mumbai terror attacks.

These two senior officials, a man and a woman, were in a meting at Taj hotel when it was raided by heavily armed terrorists of the Pakistan-based Lashkar- e-Taiba. Holed up in a hotel room, both of them fell to terrorists’ bullets late in the night on November 27. The news, sources said, even rankled the White House.

The Taj hotel was attacked by four heavily-armed LeT terrorists at around 9.30 pm on November 26 was finally declared safe after more than 50 hours gun battle NSG commandos and Navy’s Marcos on November 28. Investigations later revealed that Taj was attacked by highly trained LeT terrorists viz. Hafeez Arshad alias Bada Abdul Rehman from Multan, Javed alias Abu Ali from Okara, Shoaib alias Soheb from Sialkot and Nazeer alias Abu Umer from Faizalabad.

Unfortunately, the two espionage officials, in their middle age, had come to Taj to evaluate the threat perception in case a terrorist attack was launched from the nearby sea. They were at Taj after being alerted by the CIA, the espionage agency of the US about a terrorist attack on the hotel.

[suneels]

Some punk wants to question my credentials? Heh Heh! Gladly....
Had to find my old old CDC for this one... lemme see:
Iran Shojjat: Official No 391, GRT 12367, BHP 10900, date of strike 25/5/85
Iran Itihad: Official No.433, GRT 11384, BHP 11200, date of strike Sept 85, lost all my documents on that one...
Iran Nazr: Never officially accepted by the Govt of Iran (carrying munitions from a "friendly country and all that) date of strike Dec 85...
Owners of all ships IRISL. Managers: XXX
That was before they issued compulsary IMO nos friend...only port of registry nos were needed.

Move on brother and let old war memories lie...they bring out the worst in me
I've been there, bought the T-shirt, wore it and tore it...
This is 2008 and the discussion is Mumbai...

As a marine engineer and a naval architect, I made a humble suggestion in BR, of having 5 man or 7-man air-boats for patrolling the coastline (they have a negative draft i.e 3" in the air, are fast, better than hovercraft, and cheap as anything. They can take a ton of payload of anykind... (check on google)
They can run on water, sand, snow you name it....
And none of the Maharathis in BR seem to see any value in that.
So ok I've just sent a proposal to Shri Modi and the South Block... lets see what good comes out of that?

Now to the security aspects of Mumbai : Why are we acting surprised that the terrs landed in Gateway?
I've taken many a launch service from the Mumbai Inner Anchorage to the Gateway in the 90's... no customs, no guards... just walk off and get into a cab or a cup of coffee at the Taj...
Our shoreline security sucks bigtime brother, and all your Akulas and Dorniers will not be able to stop a fishing trawler or a launch coming into the Gateway.
Hopefully now the things should have changed...

Cheers and Jai Hind
Suneel

Hello
M.V Iran Shojjat, Exocet through the Engine room, no deaths, vessel rescued.
M.V Iran Itihad - Vessel sunk, all saved
M.V Iran Nazr - Vessel beached, refloated and no lives lost.

Only one injury, a dumb goy who lost his thumb trying to fire a safety rocket (ex-IN Cdr.)

Location: Buoy no.9 on the channel to Bandar Khomeini.

Yeah right, shiver your timbers, babe.

Date Area Attacker Unit/Crew Weapon Victim Unit/Nation

2Jan84 Khowr-e Musa SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 Iran Emamat Cyprus (CTL)
1Feb84 Bandar-e Khomeyni SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 Skaros Cyprus (damaged)
1Feb84 Bandar-e Khomeyni SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 City of Rio ? (CTL)
1Feb84 Bandar-e Khomeyni SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 FTE Neptune ? (damaged)
16Feb84 Khowr-e Musa SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 al-Tariq Liberia (damaged)
16Feb84 Khowr-e Musa SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 al-Tariq (II) Liberia (damaged)
1Mar84 Bandar-e Khomeyni SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 A.P.J. Ambika India (sunk)
1Mar84 Bandar-e Khomeyni SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 Sema G Turkey (CTL)
1Feb84 Khowr-e Musa SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 Charming UK (stranded/CTL)
1Mar84 Bushehr Roads SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 Iran Eslami Iran (damaged)
27Mar84 40nm SW Khark Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 (FTE) Filikon L Greece (damaged)
27Mar84 al-Marjan/55nm SW Khark Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Heyang Ilho South Korea (sunk)
27Mar84 Bandar-e Khomeyni SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 Iapetos (II) Iran (CTL)
29Mar84 Khowr-e Musa SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 Iran Dahr Iran (damaged)
18Apr84 Khark Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Rover Star ? (damaged)
25Apr84 100nm NE Bahrain Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Safina al-Arab Saudi Arabia (CTL)
27Apr84 Khark Super Etendard ?? FS AM.39 (FTE) Sea Eagle Liberia (damaged)
7May84 70nm SE Khark Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 al-Abood Saudi Arabia (CTL)
13May84 Khark Super Etendard IrAF 2xAM.39 Esperanza II (missile trap) Panama (CTL)
13May84 Khark Super Etendard ??FS/IrAF AM.39 Tabriz Iran (damaged)
13May84 85nm N Bahrain F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF 20mm/AIM-9P Umm Casbah Kuwait (damaged)
14May84 Khark Super Etendard ??FS/IrAF AM.39 Tabriz (II) Iran (damaged)
14May84 85nm N Bahrain F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF AGM-65A Bahrah Kuwait (damaged)
16May84 9nm N al-Jubayl F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF AIM- Yanbu Pride Kuwait (damaged)
18May84 Khowr-e Musa SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 Fidelity Panama (sunk)
24May84 S Bushehr F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF AGM-65A Chemical Venture Liberia (damaged)
26May84 Bandar-e Khomeyni SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 Savoy Dean Liberia (damaged)
31May84 Khark Super Etendard ?? FS AM.39 Atlanticos Liberia (damaged)
3Jun84 40nm S Khark Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Buyuk Hun Turkey (CTL)
3Jun84 Khowr-e Musa Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Giantkim Panama (beached/CTL)
10Jun84 Lavan Island F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF AGM-65A Kazimah Kuwait (damaged)
??Jun84 ? Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Dashaki ? (sunk)
24Jun84 Khark Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Alexander the Great ULCC Greece (CTL)
27Jun84 ?nm S Khark Super Etendard ??FS/IrAF AM.39 Tiburon Liberia (CTL)
27Jun84 ?nm S Khark F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF 2xAIM-9P Tiburon Switzerland/Liberia (CTL)
1Jul84 Khowr-e Musa SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 Alexandra Dyo BC Greece (CTL)
1Jul84 Khowr-e Musa SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 al-Kabeer (Note 7) Panama (stranded/CTL)
1Jul84 Khark SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 (miss) al-Tahir Cyprus (collision/CTL)
1Jul84 Khark SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 (miss) Five Oaks BC Panama (collision)
1Jul84 Khark SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 (miss) Sitia Venture BC Panama (collision)
1Jul84 Khark SA.321GV IrAF AM.39 (miss) Erne BC Panama (collision)
2Jul84 Khowr-e Musa SA.321GV IrAF 2xAM.39 Wonjin FR Korea/NIOC (CTL)
5Jul84 Lavan Island F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF 2xAGM-65A Primrose Japan (damaged)
10Jul84 85nm N Bahrain AB.212ASW IRINA AS.12 British Renown Gibraltar (damaged)
13Jul84 Khark Super Etendard ?? FS AM.39 (miss) Iran Eteghad Iran (damaged)
7Aug84 Khark Super Etendard ?? FS AM.39 (miss) Friendship L Cyprus (damaged)
15Aug84 Ras as Tannurah F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF AGM-65A (miss) Johar Pakistan
18Aug84 85nm N Bahrain F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF AGM-65A Endeavour Kuwait (damaged)
23Aug84 Khark Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Rana Saudi Arabia (sunk)
24Aug84 Khark Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Amethyst (TS) Cyprus (CTL)
27Aug84 Ras as Tannurah F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF AGM-65A Cleo I Panama (damaged)
??Aug84 Bushehr Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Iran Javad Iran (CTL)
1Sep84 Bandar-e Khomeyni Super Etendard ?? FS AM.39 (FTE) Jami II (TS) Iran (damaged)
11Sep84 50nm S Khark Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 St. Tobias Liberia (CTL)
12Sep84 Khowr-e Musa Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Good Wind Panama (CTL)
12Sep84 Khowr-e Musa SA.321GV ?? FS AM.39 Abib Iran (damaged)
16Sep84 ? F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF AGM-65A Med Heron Liberia (damaged)
16Sep84 ? F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF AGM-65A Royal Colombo South Korea (damaged)
21Sep84 20nm S Khark Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Seatrans-21 Germany (sunk)
8Oct84 40nm S Khark Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 World Knight Liberia (CTL)
11Oct84 Bahrain F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF AGM-65A Jag Pari India (damaged)
12Oct84 60nm S Khark Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Sivand Iran (CTL)
12Oct84 Qatar F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF AIM-9P Gaz Fountain Panama (sunk)
15Oct84 Khowr-e Musa Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Sivand (II) Iran (CTL)
16Oct84 Khowr-e Musa - - Mine Rover Star (II) Iran (CTL)
19Oct84 Qatar F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF AIM-9P Pacific Protector Panama (CTL)
25Oct84 ? Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Anis ? (CTL)
25Oct84 Khark Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Good Lord ? (CTL)
3Dec84 40nm SW Bushehr Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Minotaur ULCC Cyprus (CTL)
3Dec84 Khark Mirage F.1EQ-5 ??FS/IrAF AM.39 (miss) - - (miss)
3Dec84 Khark Mirage F.1EQ-5 ??FS/IrAF AM.39 (miss) - - (miss)
8Dec84 E Bahrain F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF AIM-9L Tariq Kuwait (damaged)
9Dec84 Khark Super Etendard ?? FS AM.39 (FTE) BT Investor Bahamas (damaged)
15Dec84 Khark Super Etendard ?? FS AM.39 Ninemia Greece (damaged)
16Dec84 Khark Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Ninemia (II) Iran (CTL)
17Dec84 Khark Super Etendard ?? FS AM.39 (FTE) Aegis Cosmic Greece (damaged)
21Dec84 Khark Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Thorshavet Norway (CTL)
21Dec84 31nm S Khark Super Etendard IrAF AM.39 Magnolia Liberia (CTL)
25Dec84 Qatar F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF AIM-9L Kanchenjunga India (damaged)
26Dec84 Qatar F-4E 61TFW/IRIAF AIM-9L Aragon Spain (damaged)

Mind Id-ing (IMO no. etc..) M.V Iran Shojjat and M.V Iran Nazr, and back up your source ?

I will gladly provide my source..

[suneels]

Go for it Mano... lets see if they work as advertised or are just flying cigars...
Heh heh
Suneel

(all Googleable)

since people are posting off-topic missile hits on their body,
i must admit that i was hit by brahmos no less than 31 times.

i know it works, and its time to hit pakistan with the same thang.

[jrjrao]

CNN.

Also, one of the Pentagon officials confirmed that the United States has intelligence indicating a single Indian aircraft violated Pakistani airspace twice on Saturday. The United States believes the incursion was inadvertent, the official said, adding that there is no information to indicate it was planned.

U.S.: India prepared for strike on Pakistan

Wonder how much real time intel Chacha Unkil would give to the Pakis, should the border get warmer...

[Rishi]

Some punk wants to question my credentials? Heh Heh! Gladly....
Had to find my old old CDC for this one... lemme see:
Iran Shojjat: Official No 391, GRT 12367, BHP 10900, date of strike 25/5/85
Iran Itihad: Official No.433, GRT 11384, BHP 11200, date of strike Sept 85, lost all my documents on that one...
Iran Nazr: Never officially accepted by the Govt of Iran (carrying munitions from a "friendly country and all that) date of strike Dec 85...
Owners of all ships IRISL. Managers: XXX
That was before they issued compulsary IMO nos friend...only port of registry nos were needed.

Move on brother and let old war memories lie...they bring out the worst in me
I've been there, bought the T-shirt, wore it and tore it...
This is 2008 and the discussion is Mumbai...

As a marine engineer and a naval architect, I made a humble suggestion in BR, of having 5 man or 7-man air-boats for patrolling the coastline (they have a negative draft i.e 3" in the air, are fast, better than hovercraft, and cheap as anything. They can take a ton of payload of anykind... (check on google)
They can run on water, sand, snow you name it....
And none of the Maharathis in BR seem to see any value in that.
So ok I've just sent a proposal to Shri Modi and the South Block... lets see what good comes out of that?

Now to the security aspects of Mumbai : Why are we acting surprised that the terrs landed in Gateway?
I've taken many a launch service from the Mumbai Inner Anchorage to the Gateway in the 90's... no customs, no guards... just walk off and get into a cab or a cup of coffee at the Taj...
Our shoreline security sucks bigtime brother, and all your Akulas and Dorniers will not be able to stop a fishing trawler or a launch coming into the Gateway.
Hopefully now the things should have changed...

Cheers and Jai Hind
Suneel

Well. Great to have you on board. BTW, the Paki/LeT inflatables landed at Badhwar Park Fishing Colony and not the Gateway Jetty.

[adityaS]

From an article about failed islamic states comes this gem:

A final note: several readers have asked me to comment on the terror attack on Mumbai in November. I will do so with great caution, given the absence of accurate information. I have good reason to believe that the Indian authorities lied about the attack. India claimed that 10 shooters were involved, because nine were killed and one captured. The actual number is closer to 30, I am reliably informed, not counting support personnel in Mumbai who arranged safe houses with extra ammunition and explosives months in advance of the attack. It was not a suicide attack at all, but a new kind of urban terror assault, in which the participants had a reasonable expectation of survival, and the majority did in fact survive. That is an important wrinkle, for a better class of combatant can be recruited for missions in which survival is at least possible.

Not sure how reliable this is, could the gurus please comment? Please do ignore Spengler's inflammatory language, since if this is true, it is worrying.

[Abhi_G]

[quote="NRao"]2 US sleuths died in attack on Taj hotel

[quote]


Ok, so this news is correct. It did come up in TOIlet during the attacks for an hour or so and then was hushed up. Somebody in BRF also posted the same information from a Paki site. But there was silence on this for the last two weeks. Now question is what was CIA doing at Taj?

[SaiK]

Pakistan complains about Hindu Terrorism to UN

[negi]

^^ Saik sir please check the link, I tried google did not find any relevant story.

[SaiK]

negi.. of course, that is a spin from me. its about kasab's lawyer's office getting attacked. porks will feel the heat to hear such news.

[Chellaram]

As I see it,we on BR can contribute immensely in the international arena especially by helping winning the Propaganda War.This war as I said at the time of the Kargil War,is as important as winning the war on the battlefield.The Russians have just experienced the drawback of being subjected to adverse propaganda during the Georgian spat which is only now being reversed.

Therefore we on BR should put together a strategy to "Inform,Educate and Act" as follows.We must dedicate an entire focussed thread/page to exposing Pak as the global epicentre of terror.These are a few ideas .Just saying that "we are against terror" (as if Indians are for terror!),take a pledge,vow,whatever. is meaningless unless "direct action" follows that PUNISHES Pak and those countries /entities that continue to support it.Hence the foll: suggestions.

1.Collect all the evidence from various assorted sources of Pak's complicity in terror and the details on this latest outrage.Identify the key paki indiviuduals who sponsor international terror like retd. Lt.Gen.Hamid Gul,Gen."Ar*se-f**K Pervert Kill-any",current CAS and other members of the Paki establishment.

2.Gather the best writings from the various columnists,journos,service officers,diplomats,etc.,on the duplicity of Pak exposing their chicanery and lies and track record of sponsoring terror. Create a dossier that can be sent to all key foreign institutions/govts./media,etc.

3.The recommendations on what India should do and what the international community must do to punish Pak for its perfidy.

4.We must bombard the international media establishment that still supports Pak demanding that they stop their bullsh*t.We should lobby their MPs,govt.,etc. wherever possible ,providing NRI/PIO organisations with the dossier collected to help them lobby with their govts. to demand "Economic and Military Sanctions" against Pak,bans on the jehadi movements/freezing their accounts abroad and arrests of the key masterminds in the Paki establishment.They should not be able to travel to any civilised country without fear of being arrested for terrorist crimes.

this would be a great thread...

[SaiK]

How dare BBC does a heading when mumble in kashmir speaks, makes the headline as "PM in Pakistan".. they are resorting to all kinds of vendetta against Indians.

Filthy brits is infested with LeTs!!

Indian PM in Pakistan ties plea

how come for BBC, speaking from kashmir becomes speaking from pakistan!.. this is outrageous..

[negi]

Suneel,

Your air boat suggestion indeed does make sense however what is even more troublesome is the fact that Our airports/custom checkpoints have become a place to mint moolah , the chalta hai attitude has overridden the security concerns.

Case in point, I have seen folks from travelling from massa specially the ones via Dubai manage to bring in overwhelming consumer elctronics/gold and other imported maal despite strict regulations(on paper), all this just because of 'bhai-bhatijawaad' or an occasional 'green dollar bill'.

In the context of the discussion I read that the terrorists were let of by a certain custom checkpoint in GUJ/Maha why don't we start by making an example out of those lousy idiots on duty on the fateful day.

I remember I had suggested a similar approach for manning the LOC with teams and survailance cameras and snifer dogs , but then learned members brought up the issue of a costs and logistics for manning a long boundary (which to be honest does make sense), the same might even hold good for vast shoreline.

That is why my emphasis on enhanced security for key entry points like all international 'airports' , rail and road links to Nepal,Pakistan and BD .

Bhai log any one of you recently travelling to/from India whats the scene wrt Airport security and baggage checks

[SaiK]

we need to passenger profiling.. to have safer travels. the terrorists have won currently from this liberty. it does not mean how we treat various passengers, but to do more investigations and searches.

[Pulikeshi]

Hi Shiv,

Can you please check your benne email and respond?

Regards,
Pulikeshi

[Anujan]

Very good. But too long Too boring. Too pointless.

Ah, the verbal diarrhea and intellectual constipation that I missed for so long. Let me summarize the article for Rakshaks.

Number of paragraphs that talk about:
Hindu/VHP/RSS/Dalit/Nandigram/Gurjat/Modi/BJP/Babri/Tortuning "innocent" muslims/Malegaon: 14 (aka we are to blame)

Number of paragraphs that talk about:
"Controversial encounter in Batla house"/LTTE-Indian army: 2 (aka we are the bad guys and deserve this)

Number of paragraphs that talk about:
Kashmir (aka we have to pay penance for our sins) 5

Number of paragraphs that talk about:
Pakistan/Islam (they are to blame, we should not condone their actions) 7


The reason the article was written:

Arnab Goswami, anchorperson of Times Now television, has stepped up to the plate. He has taken to naming, demonising and openly heckling people who have dared to question the integrity of the police and armed forces. My name and the name of the well-known lawyer Prashant Bhushan have come up several times.

A'roy signature so everyone knows who wrote it:

What we're experiencing now is blowback, the cumulative result of decades of quick fixes and dirty deeds. The carpet's squelching under our feet. The only way to contain (it would be naïve to say end) terrorism is to look at the monster in the mirror.

A'roy recommends to us, what she does for a living. Look at the mirror, admire self, mast**** furiously, wipe with paper and publish.

[ashashi]

How dare BBC does a heading when mumble in kashmir speaks, makes the headline as "PM in Pakistan".. they are resorting to all kinds of vendetta against Indians.

Filthy brits is infested with LeTs!!

Indian PM in Pakistan ties plea

how come for BBC, speaking from kashmir becomes speaking from pakistan!.. this is outrageous..

File an email complaint with BBC News here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/make_co ... ep1n.shtml

BBC needs to know how outrageous their headline is.

[amar_]

Guys,
I do not want to dilute the conversation but I would say this much...just whining about the issues is not going to help unless some concrete action is taken. If the govt is not doing anything about it, it is time for the aam janta to make their opinion count.
1) I cant believe that some ba$tards in BCCI are still thinking of playing cricket with porkis. Why should they be allowed to play in any matches in India and make money. Those ba$tards come to India and get entertained by the film industry? Let us isolate them. BCCI\ICL\IPL can live without porki involvement. WTF is wrong with ppl watching those ba$tards come to India and play?
2) Indian govt still didnt put the trade ties on hold and mo fus in pak continue to support terrorists. WTF is wrong with Indian govt. Dont we realize that a part of every rupee they earn here is being spent in funding terrorsts who plan to kill our people?
If MMS govt doesn't have the brains to put more and more pressure, let us not site idle.
If anyone in the forum can suggest a way to send mass protests to the film industry who is funded by the mo fu dawood and to the BCCI for being fu$cking money minded, please share the details.

[Rye]

Killer article by Rajinder Puri

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fo ... puri&sid=1

As Pakistan faces its moment of truth, its people remain in a state of denial. This could prove fatal. From Musharraf to the man in the street there is refusal to acknowledge the truth. Pakistan’s role as the launching pad for global terrorism is accepted all over the world except inside Pakistan. The evidence of the Pakistani hand in the Mumbai terror is irrefutable. So where do we go from here?

America, Russia and Europe are united in criticizing Pakistan. Sooner rather than later joint international action will likely knock out terror camps inside Pakistan. With that the crisis will not end. It will begin. For Pakistanis the real problem is not terrorism. The real problem is Pakistan. It is an artificial State. It was created by imperialist Britain in pursuit of its global strategic interests. Along with its creation the Kashmir dispute was created. Thereby Britain ensured that India and Pakistan would remain apart. There is more than enough circumstantial evidence to indicate this. Books have been written on the subject.

Because Pakistan was an artificial state, democracy could not survive. Genuine democracy could have torn the nation apart. That is why the Army took control. That is why tension with India was kept alive by the Army to perpetuate its hold. That is why Pakistan to survive was forced into dangerous bargains with big powers. That is why Pakistan became the hub of international terrorism. That is why from being created as an artificial state, Pakistan might now even disappear as a failed state. But after six decades of independence, Pakistan deserves to survive. For survival, Pakistan must act.

Today the Pakistan army is committed to help NATO forces in Afghanistan. But the army has little heart in fighting the war because large sections of it were complicit in creating and sustaining the terror outfits that are being fought. Pakistan’s dilemma is that the civilian government cannot control the army. And the army cannot fight terrorists for fear of splitting its own ranks. If the army splits, which side will its chief General Kayani back? As former head of ISI, as former member of the Special Services Group (SSG) which most likely trains terrorists, and as a member of the Janjua community that has dominated the army since Pakistan’s independence, Kayani is one man who conceivably could take on the terrorists and yet keep the bulk of the army intact.

The question is, will he?

[joshvajohn]

Indian government should release the addresses of other dead persons of the Mumbai attack and their addresses. Ask their parents or wives in Pakistan to come and receive their bodies.
It is essential to give their bodies and thus identify that they are part of such families and villages in Pakistan. why only Kasab's identity is revealed?

[NRao]

Sooner rather than later joint international action will likely knock out terror camps inside Pakistan.

The ISAF forces are ALREADY doing it ................... might I add, with the prior approval of the Pakistani Army and Government of Pakistan?

India lived with a IDE for some 15+ years. The US, et al found solutions ASAP for that menace. As long as THEIR kids were not getting killed they accepted the menace.