) not new.SaiK wrote:q. how did they train the hawk to go a certain direction of human interest?http://www.hindu.com/2008/12/16/stories ... 681000.htm
Hawk with transmitters found in Gujarat ..The security agencies, however, are keeping their fingers crossed till the report came from the FSL .
this is interesting.. something we need to learn.
ARoy types always try to put the blame on India for Kashmir ! she desrves to be ignored. No matter if an artilce comes from WEST OR ELSEWHERE ON EARTH !shiv wrote:]But too long Too boring. Too pointless.suneels wrote:Hello
Please follow the link below to read a very good analysis on the recent terror attacks
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/de ... ndhati-roy
Best regards
ARoy has firmly placed herself in the back seat, out of sight and not in control.
It may be hard to believe, but if you read Paki press, or Deaf and Dumb, looks like 99.99999999872% of all pakis (or atleast the 99.99999999872% pakis talking heads and reporters) are are 99.99% sure that that is a proof.And you bet there are 1,700,000,000 yindoos who will eagerly lap that up as "proof".
only voice of sanity. (for a paki)Amber G. wrote:It may be hard to believe, but if you read Paki press, or Deaf and Dumb, looks like 99.99999999872% of all pakis (or atleast the 99.99999999872% pakis talking heads and reporters) are are 99.99% sure that that is a proof.And you bet there are 1,700,000,000 yindoos who will eagerly lap that up as "proof".
narayanan wrote:I was the pilot of the Mirage 2020 that fired all those Exocets.
How West Asia views Mumbai attacks
Atul Aneja
Several West Asian commentators feel that after the Mumbai attacks, India has been co-opted as an active partner of the U.S., Israel and the U.K. in the war on terror or is being “trapped” to join this unseemly coalition.
The Mumbai terror attacks have generated a vigorous debate in West Asia. In most major countries, these are being interpreted as an incident that is likely to usher in a new phase in the so-called global war on terror led by the United States. The war on terrorism, which has so far focussed on Iraq and Afghanistan within the strategic ambit of West Asia, has moved into South Asia with India as its new pillar.
Many, especially in Iran and Saudi Arabia, see the attacks as part of a plot hatched by Washington and some of its allies to stoke a major geopolitical realignment in the wider West Asia-South Asia region. Several commentators are of the view that in the wake of the Mumbai attacks, India has either been co-opted already as an active partner of the U.S., Israel and the U.K. in this war or is being “trapped” to join the unseemly coalition.
With the exception of Israel, there is plenty of sympathy in the Arab and Iranian media for Pakistan, which is seen not as an instigator of the Mumbai attacks but as a victim of this conspiracy. There is a considerably large body of opinion that after the Mumbai attacks, the stage has been set for Pakistan to be targeted militarily during the Obama Presidency. The ultimate objective of a chain of events that could follow Mumbai is to draw both Pakistan and Afghanistan along with India firmly into the western orbit of influence.
So far, the jury is out in the region on the role the Indian state is likely to play in the aftermath of the Mumbai strikes. Sections of the Iranian and Saudi media have either bluntly stated or implied that India is already in the western camp and would be an active player in redrawing the geopolitical map of the region. Some others are, as yet, not so sure.
The influential hardline Iranian daily, Kayhan, said on December 1 that India, the U.S., Britain and Israel were behind the Mumbai terror attacks. It observed that neither the Al-Qaeda nor the Pakistan government was involved in the strikes. Kayhan is known to be close to the Iranian supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, but that does not mean it necessarily reflects his views or that of a majority of Iranians.
‘Vengeance obsession’
The Saudi-owned daily Al Hayat has also voiced suspicion over India’s strategic relationship with the U.S. “The Indian brother may have already given the Americans a mandate to launch wars in the Indian subcontinent, whose management will be India’s responsibility, since it is possessed by the same ‘vengeance obsession’ that struck the Americans [in 2001].”
The Lebanese militant group, Hizbollah, which successfully battled Israel for 33 days in the killing fields of South Lebanon in 2006, does not presume that India is already part of the western camp. But sensing that New Delhi is under enormous pressure to join it, the militant group has counselled India to steer clear of an alliance with the U.S. and Israel. In a statement, Sayyid Nawwaf al-Musawi, Hizbollah’s head for international relations, has recalled India’s image as a country which has not succumbed to pressures of big powers since its independence.
Hizbollah’s stand
“India has been one of the three founder-states of the Non-Aligned Movement, which sought to follow a path that is independent from the hegemony of the arrogant. We have noted that these kinds of attacks that struck India are often a prelude to U.S. security and military interference that confiscates the sovereignty of states at the pretext of fighting terrorism. These attacks will be an opportunity for the U.S. administration to blackmail both Pakistan and India and infringe on their sovereignty.”
The statement also warns India against the pitfalls of depending on Israeli intelligence. It says Israel sets this “additional trap that aims at inundating states with misleading intelligence as well as infiltrating their security and military establishments.”
According to the Hizbollah, those who carried out the Mumbai strikes were of the Takfiri ideological persuasion. It is widely perceived that the Takfiris are extremists who view the entire non-Muslim world as a battleground, with the majority of Muslims also being termed infidels.
The Hizbollah said it rejected “Takfiri ideas which make others targets of killing and aggression ... the deadly Takfiri thought has been tearing apart the body of the Muslim community, [has] inflicted massacres on them and shed much of their blood.”
The Hizbollah pointed out that it did not view conflicts through a religious ideological prism. “Our opinion on divisions and conflicts … are not based on religious, ethnic, or sectarian considerations but on the basis of arrogance and oppression. We stand by the oppressed, regardless of their religion, ethnicity, colour, or countries in order to confront the arrogant ones whatever their religious and national affiliations might be.”
Commenting on how it envisaged its relations with India, Hizbollah, which has now emerged as a highly influential player in the Lebanese political establishment, said: “[It is] our desire to consolidate dialogue and friendship with the Indian people of various groups in order to uphold freedom of mankind and confront the forces of arrogance, takfir, and Zionism, because these forces cooperate and stand together to reap the fruits of their common work. Indeed, they have the same approaches and methods.”
The 9/11 analogy
There has been considerable comment on the negative implications of characterising the Mumbai attacks as India’s 9/11. Al Hayat points out that repeated references to 9/11 in the wake of the Mumbai attacks only bring back “the atmosphere of the U.S. 9/11.”
The website of Iran’s state-run Islamic Republic New Agency (IRNA) also posted an article on December 5, stressing that the Americans were going to great lengths to connect the group which perpetrated the 9/11 attacks with terrorists who struck in Mumbai. It cited the visit by U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to New Delhi, where she reportedly said those who attacked India’s commercial capital and those blamed for the 2001 terror attacks in New York and Washington “move in the same circles.”
IRNA added: “If there is a connection between the Mumbai attacks and those of September 11 it is to be found in the American response. Seven months after the planes flew into the World Trade Center and Pentagon, Rice described those tragic events as ‘an enormous opportunity’ to ‘create a new balance of power.’ Washington now sees a similar opportunity arising from the carnage in India to pursue its interests in South Asia.”
Sympathy for Pakistan
The events that followed the Mumbai attacks have generated sympathy for Pakistan in West Asia. An editorial in Saudi Arabia’s daily Al Madina said: “Terrorism also threatens Pakistan’s very existence, and directly or indirectly harms its sovereignty over its territory, every time the U.S. attacks what Washington claims is a ‘terrorist’ target within Pakistan. [In the aftermath of the Mumbai attacks], India is furious while Pakistan, already in an extremely complex economic predicament, definitely needs no more crises to add to its existing ones.”
An editorial in the Saudi daily Al-Jazirah titled “A War Is Imminent” blamed the policies adopted by the U.S. in Afghanistan as the deeper cause of the current tensions in South Asia. “The terrorist attacks in Mumbai were extremely serious — in terms of their ‘quality,’ in hitting a number of targets [simultaneously], and in the [large] number of victims [they claimed]. But worst of all, they gave rise to serious political and military tension between India and Pakistan, which may lead to a war. Such a war would be a war between two nuclear powers whose security has been fundamentally undermined by the U.S. warfare in Afghanistan …”
The Iranian leadership was the first to imply that the Pakistani state was not involved in the Mumbai attacks. On December 2, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad told state television IRIB that the “savage terrorist attacks which killed so many innocent people were staged by [elements] from outside the region as regional people would never do such a thing.”
The Mumbai attacks challenge the Indian state on not only how it manages domestic security but also how it frames external polices. It remains to be seen whether New Delhi will follow an independent approach by forging closer ties with neighbours on a common politico-security platform or get itself entrapped as a junior partner in an alliance with extra-regional players pursuing their geo-strategic agenda in the region.
Mumbai’s Butcher and human rights
Kanchan Gupta
Now that the din of national outrage over the death and destruction in Mumbai, caused by 10 Pakistani fidayeen of whom one has missed the bus to jannat and thus left 72 gossamer-clad, kohl-eyed houris distraught at being deprived of the privilege of leading him through the pearly gates to the limitless pleasures that lie beyond, human rights activists and their cohorts in media have begun to crawl out of the holes in which they have been hiding since November 26. For the past couple of days, they have been crowding the studios of 24x7 news channels and airing their views dripping with compassion for Ajmal Amir Kasab, also known as, and justifiably so, ‘The Butcher of Mumbai’.
Displaying utter contempt for the national mood and flaunting their perverse notion of what constitutes justice, they have started demanding that Kasab’s ‘human rights’ should be protected. There is no evidence as yet to suggest that the ‘human rights’ of this terrorist are being trampelled upon by an uncaring, cruel state, unless we are to believe that his detention at an undisclosed safe house, in a room with a high ceiling to ensure that he cannot commit suicide, where he is being served wholesome hot meals, amounts to a gross violation of his ‘human rights’.
Nevertheless, by way of ample precaution, the New York-based Human Rights Watch, which has been honoured with this year’s UN Human Rights Prize, has lent its shrill voice to the clamour of the human rights activists. In a statement issued on December 3, while offering gratuitous advice to the Government of India on how to manage its affairs, Human Rights Watch has demanded that investigators should “respect human rights”. As a commentator in The Jerusalem Post has pointed out, “The HRW’s website lists 38 reports attacking counter-terrorism efforts around the globe but only three on the brutal impact of terrorism on civilians”.
Meanwhile, a spurious debate has been initiated by publicity-seeking human rights activists and lawyers, egged on by activist-anchors whose hearts beat for Kasab and his breed and who make a fetish of their appalling ignorance, on whether he should be provided with legal assistance, presumably to prove his innocence in the courts of law. There are aspects to the debate that merit comment.
Kasab will no doubt be tried as per the law of the land after charges have been framed against him. Since we are a law-abiding democracy, the judicial process will not be short-circuited. It is also unlikely that the judges who hear the case will suspend their adherence to the principle, no matter how flawed and disingenuous it may be, that every accused person must be presumed to be innocent until proven guilty.
It is at once a tribute to our criminal justice system and a blot on our collective conscience that a Pakistani who slaughtered citizens of India and has since expressed neither remorse nor regret will appear in court as an ‘innocent’; the state shall have to prove that he is actually guilty of the crime which everybody knows he has committed in full view of innumerable witnesses. But since India is not Saudi Arabia, he will escape decapitation in a public square.
As with other terrorists, for instance, Mohammed Afzal Guru who masterminded the fidayeen attack on Parliament House on December 13, 2001, he will be represented by a lawyer. Which brings us to the question: Whose responsibility is it to ensure that he gets adequate and appropriate legal assistance? Since he is a Pakistani citizen, the responsibility devolves upon the Government of Pakistan. If Islamabad turns away its face, Ms Nandita Haksar and Ms Teesta Setalvad will have the opportunity to defend yet another terrorist. There are other lawyers who are willing to represent Kasab in court despite bar association resolutions preventing them from doing so. Some of them, including Mr Trideep Pais, are on record offering their services because they believe everybody has the right to legal representation and that a lawyer should not be constrained by either the nature or the enormity of the crime his or her client is accused of.
That’s a lofty principle and if Kasab’s defenders truly believe in it, they should not be fearful of social ostracism or of being shamed and shunned by their peer group. If it is their right to plead that Kasab is not guilty of the crime of mass murder, or that he does not deserve to be put on the next bus to jannat to keep his date with 72 gossamer-clad, kohl-eyed houris, then citizens have the right to spit on their faces. It is absurd to expect people will felicitate the defenders of Kasab.
There is, however, the other view, which cannot be entirely overlooked in our zeal to uphold the rule of law as we understand it. Does Kasab really qualify to be tried within the matrix of our criminal justice system? As a foreign national, he cannot demand the same privileges that are accorded to India’s citizens and are guaranteed by India’s Constitution. More importantly, he is not a commonplace offender, but an alien ‘unlawful combatant’. During a recent television debate, former Solicitor-General Harish Salve described Kasab as a foreign citizen and an ‘unlawful combatant’ who waged war against the Union of India; since he targeted unarmed civilians, he should be treated as a ‘war criminal’.
The term ‘unlawful combatant’, contrary to popular belief, was not coined after 9/11 to justify the detention of suspected jihadis at the American facility in Guantánamo Bay. It has been in use for a long time and essentially refers to ‘non-state actors’ who wage war against a state. Given the illegality of their action, it is not surprising that neither the Hague nor the Geneva Conventions should refer to ‘unlawful combatants’. Hence, it is ridiculous to invoke the Geneva Conventions, as is being done by those who hope to see Kasab walk free.
So, what do we do in this situation? How should we classify Kasab and his crime? Is he just an alleged murderer? Or is he an alleged terrorist? Or, is he an ‘unlawful combatant’ who should be tried by a military tribunal? And what will be Kasab’s response when his trial begins?
When Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the mastermind behind 9/11, and his four co-defendants were presented before the Military Commission at Guantánamo Bay, they said that they wanted to plead guilty, but only if it served their desired purpose. “If we plead guilty, can we still be sentenced to death?” Khalid Sheikh Mohammed asked the Military Commission judge responsible for trying the men. The question stumped him and others representing the US Administration: They didn’t know how to respond.
What if Kasab were to tell the judge before whom he is presented, with or without legal assistance, “If I plead guilty, can I still be sentenced to death?”
ramana,ramana wrote:Kobe what do you print it on? Is it a standard Avery sticky page? We can even have fundraiser for those bumper stickers.
I have serious reservations with this assertion.1.The ordinary citizen in both Pak and India want to live in peace with each other.Bollywood,cricket and a common cultural heritage binds us together in a love-hate relationship.
I liked this answer to the Hindu paper.>>>>>achit wrote:from the articleSaiK wrote: may be the answer to the larger context lies in the negation.well he think this was laudable...I am convinced that the attacks are further evidence that the partitioning of India and Pakistan has proved a tragic mistake. It was prompted for laudable reasons — to protect Muslims from Hindu dominance — but it caused the death of millions in the greatest migration in human history, and 60 years on what has it achieved? Two nations — three including Bangladesh, which gained independence in 1971 — whose leaders have shed blood and spent billions fighting each other while their people have starved and suffered....
Perhaps a thread like ---"Why Pakis hate India? and Why Indian Muslims don't hate Pakis" might give us some more strategic depth into how we may help strategize for our future ops.If the reason that prompted Partition was “laudable,” India would not be home to the world’s second largest Muslim population.
The tragedy of Partition was thrust on the subcontinent by the power-hungry Muslim leadership. The fatal mistake cannot be undone.
Col. C.V. Venugopalan (retd.),
Palakkad
* * *
Among ALL those, as weak as they are, I find this to be the most stupid one.3.The Kashmir issue,the most intractable is being gradually defused through the relaxation of the LOC,holding of regular elections in the state and development aid.However,there are certain Kashmiri groups who are being secretly supported by western entities/agencies in continuing to demand a separate independent state, which if brought into being would allow a permanent foreign presence in the region (aimed primarily against China through Tibet),inimical to both India and Pak.India however had to keep up the momentum in defusing J&K and not waste the hard work gone before.The GOI should not bother about peripheral events like terror attacks around the country,but remain focussed on J&K affairs without sacrificing the security of the state.
The MOST laughable.6.The US/NATO are in deep trouble in Afghanistan and will do their utmost to bring the Pak military establishment onto their side to fight the Taliban,compromising their principles in the bargain.There interests will come first as always.
Secretary Condoleezza Rice
Remarks Following the UN Security Council Meeting on the Situation in Somalia
New York City, New York
December 16, 2008 ………
QUESTION: Following up on your answer, you said the U.S. has been sure that UN sanctions, et cetera, are followed. Is Pakistan following the UN Security Council’s ban on the Jamaat? The Foreign Minister just said this weekend that charitable organizations of the Jamaat-ul-Dawa will not be closed down. Is this a violation of international cooperation?
SECRETARY RICE: Well, the – Pakistan is going to have to untangle a difficult circumstance with the Jamaat-ul-Dawa – they are – because I understand that there are so-called charitable activities. But we learned – the United States learned the hard way that sometimes these are too intertwined with organizations that have terrorist ties and that have just been designated here. And so we will be pressing all member-states to adhere completely and to the letter of the designations that the United Nations has taken. And because I know the Pakistani Government to be a government that wants to deal in good faith with the world – it’s a new civilian government that is a legitimate government that wants very much to be respected in international politics and, by the way, wants to deal with the terrorism problem that is itself having dire consequences in Pakistan – I expect that there will be great – will be cooperation. ………
US State Dept
for those that dont have it, heres the link to that story highlighting the number of people in Karachi supporting suicide bombings in India.Rahul M wrote: the pakistani 'ordinary' citizens wish no such thing. of course they will rather have an India that is demolished without a frontal confrontation with their country, one they know they can't win.
but that does not mean that the avg pakistani is averse to the use of force without *ANY* reservations if that forwards their cause (like bombings or killing civilians).
case in point : a) the candle light vigil news, as reported by Amber G.
b) the recent opinion poll that showed that overwhelming majority of respondents(bulk of whom were educated/affluent urban pakistanis) supported suicide bombings if the target was India.
is there another article highlighting the views of the rest of Pakistan?nearly 50 percent of all those surveyed in Karachi believed that suicide bombing was acceptable in Palestine, Kashmir and Lebanon.
Ramana I have been mulling on it for many days now. The mandarins in South and North Block are indeed doing their job darn well in this inning. Indian Government is fighting this grand chess game quite well. Earlier Kargil was a masterful trap (by the loving massa, and the nuclear flash point flavor of the day) and Indian strategists and the government of the day (NDA) saved the nation and won victory on more fronts than just immediate war. Similarly the strategists and government of today (UPA) is doing a good job in carefully walking this minefield and ensure India does not fall for this goading and knee jerk urge. I can see that it is orchestrated in undercutting TSPArmy and continue the TSP vacuum implosion, while checking the firangi role further growing into Indian sub-continent.ramana wrote:NRao its poor perfomance to piss on information and feedback. Try to read between the lines and craft strategy.
GOI understands what the foreign interlocutor is saying. And hence the reluctance to provide legitimacy for the TSPA by massing troops. It has to be tackled in other ways and at same time keep out the US form the area.
Go back and read SB Chavan's speech in Lok Sabha after the Mumbai blasts and the ABV speech in Tajikistan in 2003.
Why do you think the US is revealing and confirming all that GOI has been saying all these years? Its to goad the UPA to take some action and get embroiled and provide a role for US. It has to be done in an Indian way.
Rahul M wrote:I have serious reservations with this assertion.1.The ordinary citizen in both Pak and India want to live in peace with each other.Bollywood,cricket and a common cultural heritage binds us together in a love-hate relationship.
the pakistani 'ordinary' citizens wish no such thing. of course they will rather have an India that is demolished without a frontal confrontation with their country, one they know they can't win.
but that does not mean that the avg pakistani is averse to the use of force without *ANY* reservations if that forwards their cause (like bombings or killing civilians).
case in point : a) the candle light vigil news, as reported by Amber G.
b) the recent opinion poll that showed that overwhelming majority of respondents(bulk of whom were educated/affluent urban pakistanis) supported suicide bombings if the target was India.
a cursory scan of their media for any period of time exceeding a month is enough to convince people of what the 'ordinary' citizens think about relations with India.
shiv ji's work especially the parts on education is particularly well researched.
or is it that pakistan has no or few 'ordinary' citizens ?
after zia that may be certainly closer to the truth.
I would tend to agree.....solution to Pakistan will happen when the Nawaz Sharifs, rump sections of PA, the MQM, Baloch, Seraiki, Pakhtun and Sindhi nationalists come to an agreement with GOI on rooting out the Pakiban menace. The recent actions of the GOI give credence to this thinking.Arun_S wrote:Ramana I have been mulling on it for many days now. The mandarins in South and North Block are indeed doing their job darn well in this inning. Indian Government is fighting this grand chess game quite well. Earlier Kargil was a masterful trap (by the loving massa, and the nuclear flash point flavor of the day) and Indian strategists and the government of the day (NDA) saved the nation and won victory on more fronts than just immediate war. Similarly the strategists and government of today (UPA) is doing a good job in carefully walking this minefield and ensure India does not fall for this goading and knee jerk urge. I can see that it is orchestrated in undercutting TSPArmy and continue the TSP vacuum implosion, while checking the firangi role further growing into Indian sub-continent.ramana wrote:NRao its poor perfomance to piss on information and feedback. Try to read between the lines and craft strategy.
GOI understands what the foreign interlocutor is saying. And hence the reluctance to provide legitimacy for the TSPA by massing troops. It has to be tackled in other ways and at same time keep out the US form the area.
Go back and read SB Chavan's speech in Lok Sabha after the Mumbai blasts and the ABV speech in Tajikistan in 2003.
Why do you think the US is revealing and confirming all that GOI has been saying all these years? Its to goad the UPA to take some action and get embroiled and provide a role for US. It has to be done in an Indian way.
Thanks for pointing it out.
The low life sounds more like a kashmiri or pashtun with a limited knowledge of urdu. This is not the accent of a punjabi. My opinion, of course.Victor wrote:Link to pakiturd interview on youtube.
Mirpuris are mixed breed . There genetic make up got updated many time since 47.anupmisra wrote:The low life sounds more like a kashmiri or pashtun with a limited knowledge of urdu. This is not the accent of a punjabi. My opinion, of course.Victor wrote:Link to pakiturd interview on youtube.
So really, this attack, like all the others, has been an attempt to incite a pogrom against IMs? In that they have miserably failed it appears.
According to two senior sources within jihadi outfits and as many in the intelligence agencies, the recent terror attacks in different parts of Mumbai…were masterminded by Pakistani intelligence agency ISI using the defunct Lashkar-e-Taiba [LT] which is presently working under the guise of a relief/charity agency – Jamatud Dawa – all over Pakistan… Deccan Mujahideen is a pseudo name of Lashkar-e-Taiba.
The latter cannot assume the responsibility of the attacks - like past - due to the fact that Pakistan and its jihadi outfits are being watched by the US and its allies. The Lashkar leaders are not accepting the responsibility at official level but they are taking pride and claiming it among their trusted people. There is a strong sense of jubilation among the ranks and files of Lashkar-e-Taiba. They have offered nawafil i shukrana (special prayers to thank God) for successfully carrying out the attacks. They have distributed boxes of sweet meats among their workers to celebrate the victory. They believe that it will pave the way for the freedom of Kashmir."
