Indian Response to Terrorism

Locked
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36427
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by SaiK »

community based setup could be the answer if govt fails to provide security setup. but, this type of setup needs to be regulated with federal information sharing agencies. its important to have the community setups to be an integrated force rather a disjoint force. its ok, if they have something as stop gap.

btw, dilbu.. we are a big nation.. slow democracy, and a big fat discreet club of living house on the planet.. some times responses that looks like "no response at all", appear to be responses as well. i understand, we are looking for a big attack on the madrassas, terror training camps in pakistan.

pakistan is being told to act by everyone.. we need to keep up the international pressure by banning all arm sales to pakistan till they prove this is done. chinese arms sales, as we noted by a post here, was quickly done by pakis.. they know this is coming.

we have to wait..
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60289
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by ramana »

Saik, The move by Tatas to setup private secuirty will lead to private armies and eventual breakdown of law and order. In that way by incompetence and ngeligence the UP Awill facilitate the very thing the INC founders fought against- break down and eventual breakup. It will be back to the Pindaris. Think of a private security setup run by Bal Thackeray or Lalu Yadav.
Abhi_G
BRFite
Posts: 715
Joined: 13 Aug 2008 21:42

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Abhi_G »

Manu wrote:
(2) The Security checks inside Domestic and International Airports is very comprehensive.
At the *entrance* of the airports until a couple of months back, we did have a group (number depends) of CISF personnel or police personnel carrying Insas rifles checking the passenger's passport/id and ticket. This may have changed after the Mumbai carnage. That was the first line of defence. In the event of a full blown attack, it would seem to me that this arrangement is not adequate. Further these personnel are without any security vest/ BPJ. It would make more sense that in addition of the security *inside* the airport, there needs to be security spread in the airport premises; the reason being that a spread out security will have chances of neutralizing terrorists away from the entrance, which is normally more chaotic. Kasab and his accomplice coming out of their car in the parking were caught in CC TV cameras. Of course just CC TV footages are not enough to neutralize terrorists. If there was a check point/outpost somewhere near that place, maybe some action would have occurred away from the inside of CST, IMHO. It is always easy to see things in retrospect though.

Now if we take the case of a big railway junction, an entire new paradigm needs to thought about considering the number of our people who travel by trains. The CST experience should raise questions about this - if not now, then sadly probably never. It needs a cohesive and complete overhaul of our security apparatus. The system that is in place now is just not adequate.
Last edited by Abhi_G on 17 Dec 2008 20:46, edited 2 times in total.
enqyoob
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2658
Joined: 06 Jul 2008 20:25

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by enqyoob »

(2) The Security checks inside Domestic and International Airports is very comprehensive.


I am not going to give out specifics, but very respectfully, I would suggest that whoever is in charge of security at Mumbai airport should be summarily fired and have their ass kicked all the way to Juhu. I am talking of the situation there as of 1 week ago. The "chalta hai" chaos there is utterly shocking.
ASPuar
BRFite
Posts: 1536
Joined: 07 Feb 2001 12:31
Location: Republic of India

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by ASPuar »

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 852273.cms

Antulay raises doubts over Karkare's killing

17 Dec 2008, 1916 hrs IST, PTI


NEW DELHI: Union minority affairs minister A R Antulay set off a major controversy on Wednesday when he raised doubts over the killing of
Maharashtra ATS chief Hemant Karkare by Pakistani terrorists, suggesting a link with the Malegaon blasts that were investigated by him. ( Watch )

Opposition parties were quick to attack the minister for his "misdemeanour" and demanded immediate clarification from the prime minister but the Congress party distanced itself saying they were his "personal remarks".

BJP and Shiv Sena members raked up the issue in Lok Sabha and demanded home minister P Chidambaram, who had moved two anti-terror bills, to clarify the situation.

Maintaining that "there is more than what meets the eyes", Antulay said Karkare was investigating some cases in which "there are non-Muslims also", an apparent reference to the Malegaon blasts case in which sadhvi Pragya Thakur and a Lt-Colonel Shrikant Prasad Purohit were among the 11 persons to be arrested.

"Unfortunately his end came. It may be a separate inquiry how his (Karkare's) end came," he told reporters outside Parliament.

Antulay said "Karkare found that there are non-Muslims involved in the acts of terrorism during his investigations in some cases. Any person going to the roots of terror has always been the target, he said.

"Superficially speaking they (terrorists) had no reason to kill Karkare. Whether he (Karkare) was victim of terrorism or terrorism plus something. I do not know," he added.

When he came under attack in Lok Sabha on the issue, Antulay sought to wriggle out saying he had not talked about who killed Karkare but about "who sent him in the direction" of Cama hospital, outside which he was killed.

"Who had sent them to Cama hospital (a lane opposite which he and two other officers were killed by Pakistani terrorists on Nov 26). What were they told that made them leave for the same spot in the same vehicle.

"I repeat what I had said. I had not said who had killed them but only questioned who had sent them there (Cama Hospital) in that direction," he said in Lok Sabha where BJP and Shiv Sena members attacked him for his remarks.

Anant Geete of Shiv Sena accused him of "misleading" the house and sought Chidambaram's clarification.

Earlier in the day, describing Hemant Karkare as a very bold officer having great acumen and vision, Antulay asked "How come instead of going to Hotel Taj or Oberai or even the Nariman House, he went to such a place where there was nothing compared to what happened in the three places?"

"Why all the three (Hemant Karakre, Vijay Salaskar and Ashok Kamte) went together. It is beyond my comprehension," the minister said.

The minister's remarks came under immediate attack from BJP which asked the prime minister to clarify whether his remarks are an "individual misdemeanour or the collective wisdom of the Cabinet".

"The remarks are obnoxious and deserves a clarification from the prime minister," BJP spokesman Rajiv Pratap Rudy told reporters.

Reacting to Antulay's remarks, Congress spokesman Abhishek Manu Singhvi they should be treated his "personal views" and Congress party does not agree with them and does not support such a formulation.

To a question, he said there was no question of embarrassment to the party.

Samajwadi Party MP Amar Singh, who himself was in the centre of a controversy when he had raised doubts over the killing of a Delhi police official in an encounter recently, said a senior leader like Antulay should before issuing any statement uphold the cherished tradition of collective wisdom of the cabinet.

Not completely disapproving the remarks, Union minister Ram Vilas Paswan said Antulay must be having "more information" since he hails from Maharashtra.

The issue came up when the house was discussing two bills brought in by the government to tackle terror against the backdrop of Mumbai terror attacks.

Geete said the prime minister and several senior union ministers have gone on record to say that Karkare was killed by terrorists.

Not satisfied with Antulay's reply, Geete charged the union minister with "misleading" the house, which he "did not "expect".
X-posting from another thread.

This is the Indian response to terror. I thought that our government wanted to prove to the world that Pakistan has caused a terror attack in Mumbai. But no, Sri Antulay knows better. Has he ever heard of an action for slander? Along with the famous Maharashtra Anti Terrorism Squad, which despite the IB's protests want to pretend that some two bit group blew up the Samjhauta express. I think these gents want to derail our whole foreign policy.
enqyoob
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2658
Joined: 06 Jul 2008 20:25

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by enqyoob »

These oiseules are all on the take from Pakistani terrorist sponsors. Hang Antulay and hang the rest of the Maharashtra "cabinet".
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60289
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by ramana »

S. Balagangadhara writes on the ideology of the terrorists

The Saint, The Criminal And The Terrorist


I submit that terrorist attacks from Islamist countries are a throwback ot the old razas of Muhmmad's time. To treat them as mere acts of criminals is not to understand the true nature of the raid.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36427
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by SaiK »

hanging netas is India is harder than landing in mercury.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60289
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by ramana »

I am not too sure about the suspending habeas corpus from 90 days to 180 days. All it will do is to prop up incompetence by police.
The other thing is shifting the burden of proof from the accuser/prosecution to the accused.

Unless there is truly independent judiciary this will recoil on the politicians who supported this bill. It reads like de-Enlightenment act and similar to the one in Count of Monte Cristo.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36427
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by SaiK »

the laws should mention clearly, that they are valid for Indian nationals only. All state less actors will be dealt by military courts.
Sasi
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 11
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Sasi »

The NIA is flawed in many respects and I seriously doubt if it will serve any useful purpose.
  • As many forum members mentioned, the presumption of guilt is the biggest drawback. This is too Talibanic.
  • Aiding, abetting or committing a terrorist act shall be punishable with imprisonment up to ten years. This is too lenient, to say the least. There are many Pakis who will be more than happy to repeat Mumbai carnage if the punishment is only 10 years! If the punishment has to have any deterrent value, then the punishment should be at least 20 years multiplied by the number of casualties/victims. Also, the convicted should not be allowed to serve the term concurrently. Needless to say, this type of punishment should be meted out not only to the savages like Kasab but also to his sponsors/masters.
  • While the text of the NIA bill is unnecessarily wordy, whoever wrote that have made it too restrictive in some cases. This gives a lot of leeway for some activist judges. For example, the statement The Bill for constitution of the NIA to be applicable to whole of India, citizens of India outside India and persons on shops and aircraft registered in India in the literal sense fails to mention (or excludes, in the eyes of an activist judge) water-borne attacks.
  • Nothing in the bill directs the judiciary and the law enforcement to speed things up. This can mean, going by our standards, long drawn (seemingly never ending) trials.
milindc
BRFite
Posts: 761
Joined: 11 Feb 2006 00:03

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by milindc »

SaiK wrote:hanging netas is India is harder than landing in mercury.
If any neta had stepped out during the Mumbai protests, he would have been lynched.
Aam janta is baying for blood and this mob justice will prevail sooner than later unless the prosecution and judiciary improves drastically.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60289
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by ramana »

milindc wrote:
SaiK wrote:hanging netas is India is harder than landing in mercury.
If any neta had stepped out during the Mumbai protests, he would have been lynched.
Aam janta is baying for blood and this mob justice will prevail sooner than later unless the prosecution and judiciary improves drastically.
So whats the scoop on changes in the Police setup? And who was the police officer that was locked up in his vehicle with his two aides and wouldnt respond to SMS even? Pravin Swami wrote about the incident.
Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17167
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Rahul M »

ramana wrote:
milindc wrote: If any neta had stepped out during the Mumbai protests, he would have been lynched.
Aam janta is baying for blood and this mob justice will prevail sooner than later unless the prosecution and judiciary improves drastically.
So whats the scoop on changes in the Police setup? And who was the police officer that was locked up in his vehicle with his two aides and wouldnt respond to SMS even? Pravin Swami wrote about the incident.
saw a report on TV that both AN Roy and Gafoor are being investigated for leadership failure. either NDTV/Times Now.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36427
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by SaiK »

there are "cause & effect" and there are co-relations. why would the 10 terrorist take the high seas, to hit karkare!?. if antulay knows so much, why can't he give more answers to those dead pigs who killed all the poor dehis, americans, jews et al. antulay is just playing poltics.. take him out, and lynch him in public, who cares.. we are giving too much into such antics by babooze.

these politicians have a scope of reasoning.. beyond that, their intelligence is below 60.. and just enough to do the under hand dealings, butter masalas, and get the rowdy gang in force for the next elections.

imho, karkare was killed as would have sandeep or other security forces did.. in karkare's case he was too early to realize the attack was a larger nature, than a local terror gang outfit kinds.

haven't you all heard of our hear sayers in the streets.. they can make a tsunami after the event, based on some karma that happened earlier. btw, if tsunami never striked, it would have been good karma, rather no karma effect.

antulay has only made himself defined as a perfect fool!
vsudhir
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2173
Joined: 19 Jan 2006 03:44
Location: Dark side of the moon

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by vsudhir »

INC meanwhile is triangulating away

Congress distances itself from Antulay’s Karkare remarks
On Tuesday, a tough talking opposition in the Maharashtra Assembly, joined by suspended Congress rebel Narayan Rane, issued a virtual ultimatum to the government to sack state Director General of Police Anomy Roy and Mumbai police chief Hasan Ghafoor.

The opposition slammed the two top police officers for their “failure” to act on intelligence about the 26/11 terror strike and lead from the front the force under their command in repulsing the terrorists.

“While three top political functionaries - (then central home minister) Shivraj Patil, (then chief minister) Vilasrao Deshmukh and (then state home minister) R.R. Patil - have had to go owning up moral responsibility for the loss of life in the horrendous terror strike, why are the two top police officers directly responsible for it still in their seats?” asked senior Bharatiya Janata Party leader Gopinath Munde while speaking on an adjournment motion tabled by the opposition.
And sure enough, in response....
Maharashtra govt to probe top cops' lapses during Mumbai attack

Meanwhile, dunno who is pulling the strings here but does seem like democratic chaos in action. Central hand doesn't know what the state hand is doing and vice versa.

Maharashtra govt rejects Antulay's conspiracy theory
Senior Congress Minister A. R. Antulay's remark over 'conspiracy' angle in ATS chief Hemant Karkare's death was rejected on Wednesday by Maharashtra Home Minister Jayant Patil, who said there was enough circumstantial evidence to rule out the conspiracy theory.

"We have eye-witnesses statement and other evidences to indicate that Karkare was killed by terrorists," Patil said.

Meanwhile, State BJP president, Nitin Gadkari, demanded an apology from Antulay, for his baseless allegation.

"He should give proof (to back his remark)," Gadkari said demanding statement by the UPA government over the issue.
I would really like to see Antulay be held accountable for his mouthfarts. So far there has been no 'I've been misquoted' kinda BS. And o yes, video of his statement is available on the India Today main page. Keep at it, oppn and press. Let 26/11 be an end to biz as usual.
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25387
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by SSridhar »

vsudhir wrote:I would really like to see Antulay be held accountable for his mouthfarts. So far there has been no 'I've been misquoted' kinda BS. And o yes, video of his statement is available on the India Today main page. Keep at it, oppn and press. Let 26/11 be an end to biz as usual.
Antulay should be made an example of for spreading canards and conspiracy theories. Such a trait is very visible in the padosi land and why is that bug biting Antulay also ? He is playing the same 'disinformation' tune that ISI is playing. The least his party can do is to expel him for playing fiddle when our country is burning.
enqyoob
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2658
Joined: 06 Jul 2008 20:25

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by enqyoob »

EXTRA! EXTRA! CNN REPORTS AS BREAKING NEWS! (no kidding)
India’s cricket tour of Pakistan next year has been called off following Indian govt. advice, say media sources
Eat your words, all ye who doubted the RESOLVE of the GOI !
What is the next level on the Terrorism Response escalation ladder, I wonder? The price of candles at the Wagah border crossing will be raised 10%?
sugriva
BRFite
Posts: 318
Joined: 15 Jun 2005 20:16
Location: Exposing the uber communist luddites masquerading as capitalists

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by sugriva »

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/dec/18m ... terror.htm

Small but important step. Not giving large amounts of airtime to terrorist acts should go some way in choking off the oxygen supply of publicity to terrorists.
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21537
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Philip »

Islamic Nazism.

We are not fighting a 'war on terrorism'. Terrorism is a tactic, it is not a target. Terrorism is a means to an end. We are fighting a war against Islamic Nazism, we are fighting a 'religious war'.

When Mumbai Comes To Your Mall

by Tamar Yonah

(IsraelNN.com)
We are not fighting a 'war on terrorism'. Terrorism is a tactic, it is not a target. Terrorism is a means to an end. We are fighting a war against Islamic Nazism, we are fighting a 'religious war'
You're out holiday shopping. The stores are crowded and everything is very busy. All of a sudden, you hear gunfire and shouting in a foreign accent. People are dropping their bags and taking cover, some falling to the ground. Screaming and panic and chaos ensue. What do you do?

Global terrorism has become a plague. Fears of terror attacks are on the minds of westerners, and some say it is not if, but when. How can you prepare for such a scenario as what took place in Mumbai, India, if it comes to your mall? Director of the Northeast Intelligence Network Douglass L. Hagmann was interviewed on Israel National Radio's Weekend Edition and said that attacks like those in Mumbai will happen again.

Hagmann Interview Part 1
IsraelNationalRadio.com
Hagmann Interview Part 2
IsraelNationalRadio.com
Embed Video - Copy code to embed video in HTML document

Hagmann is a private investigator and security and surveillance expert who provides information for the FBI, Homeland Security and other agencies. He's also the author of "Tactical Surveillance" an investigative manual that is used at Henley-Putnam University as one of the core texts in the criminal justice program.

Hagmann wants the public to know, "I’ve personally investigated potential terrorists who are in this country [USA] that appear to be training for just such scenarios." He went on to explain that he has evidence of Muslim groups training in the Catskills. They train with automatic weapons and the loud spats of gunfire are unsettling and disturbing to those neighbors who reside nearby. The most disturbing thing Hagmann says is that during surveillance of this Muslim group it was discovered that they have video of them practicing shooting up a yellow school bus they had brought onto their property. The school bus target shooting is disturbing because it could be a sign to come of a future terror attack on American school children.

What about immediate targets?

Hagmann states that the Mall of America is a prime target for Islamic terrorists. "The terrorists have published their desires to create an attack against American civilians in a retail shopping outlet. Number one, for the body count, number two, for the ease of the target and thirdly, they don't care if they kill women and children, in fact, all the better, and number four, it would have a serious economic affect on the country. Why not attack during a Christmas holiday [Christmas shopping]?"


The problem

The United States and other western leaders have been intellectually dishonest in identifying the enemy, Hagmann states. "We are not fighting a 'war on terrorism'. Terrorism is a tactic, it is not a target. Terrorism is a means to an end. We are fighting a war against Islamic Nazism, we are fighting a 'religious war'."

Hagmann's view of the Arab Israeli conflict

From an investigative point of view, "It would not matter how much land Israel gave away. It wouldn't matter if all of the grievances by the Islamic world were satisfied. They will not be satisfied, and there will not be an end to terrorism [for all of us] until one of two things happen. Number one, our enemy is completely eradicated or number two, they succeed in taking over the world by establishing a one world Islamic Caliphate.

"I believe that Israel is the best friend that the United States has ever had and will ever have in the middle east, and it is our moral obligation to back Israel in whatever actions Israel plans to do with respect to Iran. I don't think the world can tolerate, nor should they accept a nuclear armed Iran. Just the mere fact that Ahmadinejad has threatened to exterminate Israel should be a sufficient cause to take action against this man. I think it's a shame. It's sinful. I think that G-d will render judgment on America for not taking action against Iran when they had the opportunity. The threat is absolute, I think the threat is real and it needs to be addressed as soon as possible or else we're going to come to a point where we will not be able to address the threat without the use of nuclear weapons."

'Politically Correct' gets in the way

Hagmann says that his reports and investigations are to be taken seriously. "When we turn over valid reports with evidence, - such as photographs, video tape, documentation that's irrefutable -that is considered best evidence in a criminal trial, …when we provide evidence that lives up to that standard, which by the way, separates us from other agencies on the Internet, -we're not a blog that writes opinions, our actions and our findings are what we provide to the agency that separates us from other blogs and what have you, on the Internet."

Hagmann is frustrated because of the way the U.S. government is handling enemy threats against it. He chastises the government and media for calling this a 'war on terror', and not a 'religious war'. He says we must identify the enemy or we cannot win this war.

Reports have been given to the government stating the hard truth. "A lot of times, we have seen unbelievable dissention among people. When in fact they say, we have to act on this or that. Or look, this IS Islamic fundamentalism, or this ideology is being taught in mosques across the United States." But it is either ignored or disqualified because of political correctness or ineptness. "Numerous individuals who had subcontracting status with the Pentagon, with our government, has been summarily dismissed, because they were not adhering to the philosophy, to the ideology, that Islam does not pose a threat to the United States." Hagmann stated.

"There was one infamous case not too long ago, I think it was about a year ago, where a long standing member of the United States military was – he was a subcontractor providing intelligence and other information to the Pentagon. When he issued a 300 and some odd page report about the threat of the Islamic fundamentalists within this country. A Muslim agent of the Pentagon was offended by the findings of that particular report. And as a result of that religious offense, and basically because of the objections by this Muslim agent who was in the Pentagon, the lieutenant was fired despite his twenty plus years of seniority and despite the fact that the report he submitted was factually accurate. So yes, what I am saying is that a lot of times political correctness and religious, the dumbing down of different things, trumps the threat. We have decision makers who are actually making decisions which are contrary to the security of the United States based on attempting to appease and acquiesce to religious groups.”

Hagmann's surveillance and exposure of Muslim radical groups operating in the United States has earned him death threats. There's a 'fatwa' (Muslim death edict) out on him from Sheik Gilani of Pakistan, the Muslim Sheik Daniel Pearl was on his way to interview when he was killed.

To hear more about some steps you might take if you are a victim of a terror attack, as in Mumbai, hear this two-hour radio special.

Sign up to receive the Daily Israel Report by email (Free)

Post Comment
1. So How Can You Prepare, Tamar?
Brana Lobel, Israel (14/12/08)

1. So How Can You Prepare, Tamar?
What is the point of scaring people without giving them means to act?
Or without giving them enough information?
Islam is not simply equivalent to the Nazi or Communist ideology.
The Islamic countries are not equivalent to Nazi Germany.
First there are three main bad actors: Iran, Syria, and Egypt. Pakistan is in there somewhere.
People have to educate themselves to go back to the source to understand the geopolitics.
Then when they contact public officials the Americans need to state American truths: people are not supposed to infringe on other's rights. The Muslims are not supposed to infringe and should be contained and if needed deported if promoting/ supporting terror or takeover of the American social/legal system and replacing it with Sharia. That's the micro. Drawing the line as hard as necessary is the macro.


4. the American-Pakistan affair
ellen, Golan Heights (14/12/08)

4. the American-Pakistan affair
Take a very hard look at the way America has fueled Jihad. 4.5 years ago I wrote opeds on the dangers of America's close alliance with Pakistan
Am-Pakt Affair part 1:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Artic ... .aspx/4051
Part 2:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Artic ... .aspx/4056

What goes around comes around, and the following sums up the US foreign policy "mistake" which led to everything from Pollard's incarceration, to 9-11 to Mumbai to a nuclear Iran:

When asked if he regrets having supported Islamic fundamentalism and giving arms and advice to terrorists, Carter's National Security Adviser, Zbigniew Brzezinskiresponded: "What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?"
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36427
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by SaiK »

I find islamic schools all over USA.. its hard to find hindu schools. imho, all temples in unkill land, must expand to house a school. at least a preschool to start with.
Raj Malhotra
BRFite
Posts: 997
Joined: 26 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Raj Malhotra »

SSridhar wrote:
vsudhir wrote:I would really like to see Antulay be held accountable for his mouthfarts. So far there has been no 'I've been misquoted' kinda BS. And o yes, video of his statement is available on the India Today main page. Keep at it, oppn and press. Let 26/11 be an end to biz as usual.
Antulay should be made an example of for spreading canards and conspiracy theories. Such a trait is very visible in the padosi land and why is that bug biting Antulay also ? He is playing the same 'disinformation' tune that ISI is playing. The least his party can do is to expel him for playing fiddle when our country is burning.

If you note that Minister of Jaiswal was saying the same thing in more sophisticated manner even when the operations were on.
Raj Malhotra
BRFite
Posts: 997
Joined: 26 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Raj Malhotra »

Sasi wrote:The NIA is flawed in many respects and I seriously doubt if it will serve any useful purpose.

Aiding, abetting or committing a terrorist act shall be punishable with imprisonment up to ten years. This is too lenient, to say the least.
Yes

Note:- Term India includes territorial sea waters.
Raj Malhotra
BRFite
Posts: 997
Joined: 26 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Raj Malhotra »

SaiK wrote:the laws should mention clearly, that they are valid for Indian nationals only. All state less actors will be dealt by military courts.
And given death sentence if involved in terrorist action. The closed envelope evidence from intelligence agencies, identity protected witnesses should be allowed and the defence lawyer should be a serving military officer
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60289
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by ramana »

Philip, Try to get hold of Freud's "Moses and Monotheism" And extrapolate to present day. it will explain the Islamic Nazism. Both are same.
milindc
BRFite
Posts: 761
Joined: 11 Feb 2006 00:03

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by milindc »

sugriva wrote:http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/dec/18m ... terror.htm

Small but important step. Not giving large amounts of airtime to terrorist acts should go some way in choking off the oxygen supply of publicity to terrorists.
Will this also apply to Suzzana Roy and her ilk who support terrorist causes.
enqyoob
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2658
Joined: 06 Jul 2008 20:25

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by enqyoob »

All I can say is that I am amazed at the reaction here to this unConstitutional knee-jerk "law" passed by the worst Indian Parliament in history.

Can you folks really browse the "Malegaon" thread, and still support giving these sorts of powers to the sort of governments and "ATS" antics seen there? I guess the Indian voter deserves what s(he) votes for.
Raj Malhotra
BRFite
Posts: 997
Joined: 26 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Raj Malhotra »

I am not too sure about the suspending habeas corpus from 90 days to 180 days. All it will do is to prop up incompetence by police.
Agreed
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66589
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Singha »

Stratfor has a three part analysis of the geographical issues that make pakistan the violent cesspool it is. from the free excerpts, I could make out

- it cannot expand thru rajasthan or punjab swamps.
- north punjab and J&K are blocked by a large civilization india
- the baluchistan and pushtuns are not 'core' peoples of their state
and spill over into other countries (iran and afghanistan)
- bstan and pstan cannot be really ruled by a central govt from indus valley
except by using very harsh measures, military rule...
- the broken terrain and lack of communication makes for very strong tribal
loyalties and inter tribal wars

so basically I could make out the only pakistan capable of being ruled by a
vanially govt is the Indus valley. the lands to the west are held by military
force only.

perhaps that is the 1st step of the model to follow to 'restructure' this
struggling asset. 'layoff' bstan and pstan and focus on its 'core' indust valley
with bite sized chunks of heavy economic warfare (vaidyaji outlined some
solid ideas)
p_saggu
BRFite
Posts: 1055
Joined: 26 Nov 2004 20:03

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by p_saggu »

Interesting thoughts.
I like the idea of squeezing pakistan so that the entire nation is within range of Smerch and Pinaka. :rotfl:
Sasta way out for us too.
Vikram Rathore
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 42
Joined: 12 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: India

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Vikram Rathore »

A very thought provoking article about what a response to terror could be from each and every one of us.
http://maloykrishnadhar.com/do-not-wash ... -get-angry
DO NOT WASH THIS BLOOD; DO NOT WIPE THIS TEAR: GET ANGRY
Posted by: Maloy Krishna Dhar on Tuesday, December 9th, 2008
This dissertation is not meant to inspire you to accumulate anger as a part of behavioral asset. Anger, in some form of application, is bad; medically, socially and morally. That anger is an animal instinct and is originated by obstruction to achieve desired object and lust, has been stated even in the Holy Book-Gita:

Dhyato Vishayan Pungsh Sangasteshupajayate,

Sangatsajjayate Kamah Kamatkrodhoabhijayate

Krodhatbhabati Sanmoha Sanmohatsmritibibhrama

Smritibhrangshad Buddhinashou Buddhinashatpranashayati (Second Chapter).

In simple English: Excessive lust and desire for any object generates infatuation in men, infatuation generates stronger desire; non-achievement generates anger; anger smog rational thinking; loss of rational thinking generates misguidance; misguided of judgment destroys men.

However, I beg to draw a line between the interpretations of the Holy Book and mundane but very important aspects those govern the affairs of a society and a Nation. This anger is not for saturating lust and fulfilling desire. This anger is more primordial- cave men wailing for total lack of safety form elemental hazards and approaching saber-toothed predator. You and all of us are being attacked by armed predators from inside and outside the country. Our constitutional protectors are emasculated and cannot defend us. They simply rob our resources; stack inside the country or in foreign accounts. They are above the law and we have no law and order coverage. The latest mercenary attack on Mumbai has proved the impotence of the omnipotent government and its governing tools. These are toothless robbing tigers.

You have wiped enough tears, you have washed enough blood. Stop wiping and washing. Stand up. Ask: how long this drama would continue? How long would we be asked to sacrifice?

For whom? The fat and corrupt politicians and the catty bureaucrats who bite away our resources in the name of fatter pay and parks packets? No more.

A time has come to get angry. It is no more enough for the media to tom-tom the virtue of the metro cities like Mumbai, eulogizing their infinite shrugging capability and sleep over the ghastly incidents taking toll of hundreds of lives and going about usual business and animalistic daily chores. A human community cannot be expected to graze in the grasslands of Kenya mindless of attacks by ferocious cats and two legged hunters. That is the basic difference between organised human society and pack of wild animals. It looks poetic and reads cathartic in electronic and print media to buy and swallow the bait that life moves on; dastard terror attack or not; corpses lying next door or not and the sleeping with the feeling: ‘I am ok, let the world go to hell.’ If our media cannot go on tomfooling the people by hyping the basic animal instinct in the animal called MAN.

Some tears can be wiped, some blood can be washed and life restarted. Indians are attuned to this routine for centuries, overcoming waves of invasion and carnages. Animals are better healed by time than medicine. Dawa se dua kabhi kabhi accha hota hain, as they say in Urdu-sometimes prayer is better than medicine. These clichés are parts of our lulling process, which we recite and go to sleep. After all, the animal must live and continue to survive.

However, we happen to live in a supposed organized Nation State whose business are run on the basis of freedom, liberty, equality, secularism and other noble concepts enshrined in the constitution. The basic test of existence of a State is its capability to protect the lives and properties of the citizen from internal and external disturbances, maintain order, move the people up to the path of progress and maintain integrity of the geopolitical entity and all other affairs of the Nation. These rights have been assured in the constitution.

For last 60 odd years we have faced disturbances arising out of internal fault lines in our communal divide, in the Northeast, Punjab, Kashmir and of course and the great fault line that is creating tectonic explosions in the Maosit movement affected areas. The entire country is in turmoil despite our pretensions that life goes on smooth like a placid river. The poetic description is misleading. Life flows on but often its course takes violent turns, changes course and brings miseries. That life can go out of rhythm totally has been proved by the escalating Maoist movement arising out of constant neglect of rural economy, agricultural community and other related problems.

I am not advocating the last course of action a group of citizen can take; rebel and create a civil war like situation. I am just evoking again the spirit of the song written by Pradip and immoratalised by Lata Mangeshkar after the 1962 China war debacle: please do not forget the sacrifices of the brave warriors of the country; remember them and keep the fire lighted.

This time, after the organised mercenary attack by a group of Pakistan based jihadists on Mumbai, in culmination of sporadic bomb attacks should not be forgotten. We should not go to sleep like a tried and vexed animal and wake up next morning and go hunting for livelihood, sex, amusement and procreation; look up the sinking sensex and wail over the rising prices of daily needs. We should try to be little better than basic animals.

For the first time a group of seaborne foreign mercenary raiders attacked a prime city of India, the supposed land of proud Marathas, revolutionaries and champions of progress. It is no jihadi/terrorist cell and module based attack. This is an attack by a proxy-foreign army with the backing of sections of Pakistani state apparatus. Those of you read the book or seen the movie Dogs of War by Frederick Forsythe and Guns of Navarone should realize with great shame that India is a Soft State and any enemy can get away with Kargil and Mumbai like adventures. This fluffy cotton-country reacts with limped limb-jerk and vomits political garbage in the form of lectures and lectures ad infinitum. Do we still look at the State as Gods beyond the clouds? The people have to decide; now or never.

Therefore, I request you do not go to bed by wiping the tear and washing the blood-Hindu, Muslim, Christian and Jewish blood. Please freeze the tear drops and the blood clots and ask in anger: where do we go from here and how do we go! Get angry, for the first and last time. Get angry not to desire money, woman, and power, not to destroy but to stabilize the systemic organs of the country and give yourselves a renewed system that works, invigorates and revitalise the tools of governances that are capable of protecting you and the country. This objective requires strong resolution and determination to reject what our corrupt, criminal and caste and greed ridden politicians say, reject all the excuses offered by the systemic tools and reject all the contorted arguments offered by the so-called intellectuals and analysts. They offer opinion because some of them are paid by vested interests and others write because the papers are to be filled up in black and white and the anchors have to fill in the air time. Listen to your heart; listen to cries of your children, wife and other near and dear ones. Listen to your inner urging and cry in anger: CHANGE THE SYSTEM, CHANGE THE GOVERNING TOOLS, CHANGE THE CONSTITUTION, CHANGE THE LAWS, CHANGE THE CRIMINAL JURISPRUDENDEC SYSTEM AND DUMP THE POLITICIANS OF PRESENT VARIETY.

Come out and share the anger of the people and make the anger victorious.

Before you do so you should know what has gone wrong and how the enemy is able to hit our heart like we are a banana Caribbean island. Leave aside Kargil and other faux pas, the present mercenary jihadi attack on Mumbai is not new at all. It is an upgraded version of what has been going on in India in the name of Islamic terrorist attacks and Jihadi thrust. Besides severe blast incidents in 1993 that devastated Mumbai and attack on the Parliament in 2001 there have been several high intensity serial bomb blasts since 2003:

March 13, 2003 - Bomb attack on a commuter train in Mumbai kills 11 people.

August 25, 2003 - Two car bombs kill about 60 in Mumbai. Aug. 15, 2004 - A bomb explodes in the northeastern state of Assam, killing 16 people, mostly schoolchildren, and wounding dozens.

October 29, 2005 - Sixty-six people are killed when three blasts rip through markets in New Delhi.

March 7, 2006 - At least 15 people are killed and 60 wounded in three blasts in the northern Hindu pilgrimage city of Varanasi.

July 11, 2006 - More than 180 people are killed in seven bomb explosions at railway stations and on trains in Mumbai that are blamed on Islamist militants.

September 8, 2006 - At least 32 people are killed in a series of explosions, including one near a mosque, in Malegaon town, 260 km (160 miles) northeast of Mumbai.

Feb. 19, 2007 - Two bombs explode aboard a train heading from India to Pakistan; at least 66 passengers, most of them Pakistanis, burn to death.

May 18, 2007 - A bomb explodes during Friday prayers at a historic mosque in the southern city of Hyderabad, killing 11 worshippers. Police later shoot dead five people in clashes with hundreds of enraged Muslims who protest against the attack.

Aug. 25, 2007 - Three coordinated explosions at an amusement park and a street stall in Hyderabad kill at least 40 people.

May 13, 2008 - Seven bombs rip through the crowded streets of the western city of Jaipur, killing at least 63 people in markets and outside Hindu temples.

July 25 - Eight small bombs hit the IT city of Bangalore, killing at least one woman and wounding at least 15.

July 26 - At least 16 small bombs explode in Ahmedabad in the state of Gujarat, killing 45 people and wounding 161. A little-known group called the “Indian Mujahideen” claims responsibility for the attack and the May 13 attack in Jaipur.

Sept 13 - At least five bombs explode in crowded markets and streets in the heart of New Delhi, killing at least 18 people and injuring scores more. The Indian Mujahideen again claim responsibility.

Oct 30 - Eleven bomb blasts rip through Guwahati, the main city of northeastern Assam state. Detonated in quick succession, they kill at least 68 people and wound 335.

Nov 26 - At least 101 people are killed in Mumbai as an unidentified number of armed attackers shoot at and toss grenades into crowds at landmark hotels and buildings.

Nov 29 - Police finally end the siege at the iconic Taj Mahal hotel in Mumbai. More than 155 people, including foreigners, were killed in militant attacks on two luxury hotels and landmarks across the city.

The statistics indicate that the foreign and internal jihadis who intend to reestablish Islamic hegemony over India as an extension of two decades old jihad in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Bangladesh are escalating the degree of attack on India. This time it has come in the form of a daring mercenary attack. This is an up gradation of the war strategy- from proxy-war to direct war.

The readers have fair idea about the perpetrators. However, to concretise the presentation of facts so disjointedly catered by the media and innumerable official spokespersons a capsule description is given below. Lots have been written about the Lashkar-e-Toiba and the materials are available in several web pages. In short, Markaz-ud-Dawa-wal-Irshad was founded in 1987 by Prof. Hafiz Moahmmad Saeed and Abdullah Azam, a Palestinian and the original preceptor of Osama bin Laden with monetary help of the later and support of the ISI. Out of this Markaz emerged Lashkar-e-Toiba in 1991 at Kunnur province in Afghanistan (some reports say Muzaffarabad) as the fighting arm of the Markaz, headquartered at Muridke, near Lahore (see map). Its dual purpose was to assist the Qaeda in Afghanistan and global jihad and to carry out ISI’s war against India in Kashmir.

Initially the Lashkar was partly trained in Afghanistan and Muridke and nearby forested area called Changa Manga. Later the major training camps were shifted to Muzaffarabad, Thakot and Mansehra (see map). Your mercenary invaders were trained by a former ISI and army officer of Pakistan for over one year at Thakot camp (name not revealed for security reasons).



Lashkar camps at Thakot, Muzaffarabad and Mansehra in POK


Initial recruitment was made from Punjab and out of that 25 young men were selected to undergo rigourous training. After brainwashing at Muridke the team was sent to Thakot for intensive training and every aspect of the training was supervised by the ISI cover officers.

After Muridke and Thakot training the group of 20 was sent to Karachi for undergoing naval-training under supervision of the Musa Company of the Special Services Group (SSG) of Pakistan Army (Musharraf was in command earlier) . The Musa Company is something like MARCOS unit of the Indian Navy. After intensive training in navigation, rough weather sailing and other aspects of naval maneuver the group was equipped to the teeth with GPS, Sat Phone, explosives, arms and ammunition and of course they were acquainted with detailed aspects of the targets of attack by using video materials. The video materials, it is now known, were made by cohorts of Dawood Ibrahim who also helped the boys by providing false identity papers. The identity papers were meant to give Pakistan a solid ground for deniability-to tell India bluntly that the raid was done by Indian Muslims or better Hindu terrorists. Some identity papers and SIM cards were obtained by HUJI and SIMI activists in Calcutta and West Bengal district towns. This hoax was fortified by sending mails in the name of Deccan Mujahideen prom a Pakistani proxy server. Some media agents of the ISI in India and abroad also floated the story that the attack was mounted by Israeli Mossad and India intelligence. Have a look at various Islamist web pages, which are carrying the garnished story in all conceivable manners to impress vulnerable Indian Muslims that the great raid was by their own brethren. Sniff around and you would hear the hushed mouth to mouth propaganda that the heinous crime was perpetrated by the Hindu government to malign the Muslims. What do you do with such congenital Goebbels?

The mercenaries took a well planned route starting from the capital town of POK via Muridke, Karachi>Porbandar> Mumbai. I illustrate the route for your benefit:



Muzaffarabad to Mumbai




Approximate Landing route


It would be clear that such a daring international transgression could not be performed by a terrorist group without state players of Pakistan. Rest of the stories about hijacking of a Gujarati fishing vessel or betrayal by a Gujarati fisherman earlier won over by the ISI while in Pakistani jail, would unfold during investigation. Let the police and intelligence carry out the postmortem as they usually do and let us proceed with resolved anger to examine other important aspects of this mini-Kargil on Mumbai.

To remind you and to strengthen your resolve a photo of the area of occupation by the mercenaries is given below:



Area of Operation by the Mercenaries (courtesy BBC)


Many opinions have been expressed by multi-mouthed government agencies and more are yet to come. Readers may notice the similarity between Mumbai attack and 9/11 attack on the USA. Mumbai operation was launched from Karachi but was planned in Islamabad and the US attack was launched from Pakistan and Afghanistan bases of the Al Qaeda and the ISI. The footprints of Al Qaeda techniques in Mumbai operation can be easily detected by discerning eyes. It may be remembered that the LeT is intricately linked to the ISI, Al Qaeda and the Taliban. Exchange of technology is a common feature.

The other players are:

a) Dawood Ibrahim and his mafia associates in Mumbai,

b) SIMI/IM assistance from Hyderabad, Bangalore and Mumbai.

c) HUJI helpers in Bangladesh and bordering areas of Murshidabad and Malda districts of West Bengal.

Dawood helped the ISI by supplying ground survey reports, facilitating intimate knowledge of the hotels and other targets. Very few people in Mumbai itself know that there is a Jewish centre at Nariman House. The facilitators of the IM helped with identity cards etc and HUJI facilitators helped in obtaining SIM cards and false certificates to help the ISI to spin the story that the attack was mounted by Indian Muslims (Deccan Mujahideen). These preparations were done months ahead of the attack and the ISI and the LeT were equipped with all the alibis.

The name Deccan Mujahideen has been used deliberately as the separatist Muslims always insisted on creation of Osmanistan with the former princely state of Hyderabad as nucleus. Hyderabad and Bangalore have other live links to this attack. Abu Hamza and Sahabuddin Ahmed linked to IISC, Bangalore attack and Syyid Vicar Ali of Hyderabad Mecca Masjid incident are suspected as main southern helpers of the ISI and the Lashkar. The myth of Deccan Mujahideen has been woven around these separatists from southern India.

Intelligence agencies are aware that Joint Intelligence Miscellaneous of the ISI and one of its important operatives Col. Mehmood Hassan has been responsible for most of the planned attacks in Indian mainland. The US 9/11 attack was assisted by the ISI (former DG ISI Mahmood Ahmad) and this time around also the ISI core is involved in the planning. Forward roles may have been played by Kafa and Zaki ur Rahman Lakhwi, Kashmir in charge of Lashkar operations.

Like the US operation the Mumbai attack was also planned and prepared for over one year. This is no ordinary terrorist attack. It is a seaborne mercenary attack like the Guns of Navarone where a British team was sent to cross occupied Greek territory and destroy the massive German gun emplacement that commanded a key sea channel. I should say with a tinge of sadness that Indian intelligence agencies also had failed to stretch their imagination that Pakistan could resort to such mercenary attack. Anticipation is half of the intelligence scheme and blue print on which the agencies build up real operations bases. How surprising that even the IB has run out of anticipation and imagination! Or have they joined the rut procession?

The Lashkar chief has denied any involvement of his organization in the Mumbai incident. The Pakistani president initially reacted with positive signals but retracted after the real owners of Pakistan-the Mullahs, Army and the ISI pressed his government to behave or get punished like his wife Benazir. Elected or nominated, no head of state or prime minister in Pakistan can renege against the real owners of Pakistan. That president Zardai is more fragile than a sand castle has now been amply proved. He has to recite the script prepared by General Kiyani and General Nadim Taj, the ISI chief or fall to bullets as his wife Benazir did.

What went wrong in India? It is necessary to know to strengthen your anger and your determination to take the fight to the core of the rotting political and bureaucratic system that operates our constitution and the governing tools.

The RAW is supposed to keep track of inimical activities beyond our borders. They are paid from your money to keep track of jihadi and terrorists organizations abroad that are regularly punishing you, simply because you are Indians. Colossal failure on the part of the RAW to generate real-time Human Intelligence has become a pain in the neck. Their reporting is sketchy, irregular and there is hardly any advance input to help the internal agencies to prevent jihadi attacks. The Intelligence Bureau has very limited access to the Islaimist organizations for combination of reasons that cannot be overcome without drastic changes in our governing attitude. The boorish policy of vote-bank secularism hinders the intelligence and security agencies. Intelligence is supposed to access a place where death even cannot enter. They have failed in their endeavours. They are also answerable to the country.

Fortunately this time around the RAW had an electronic input to indicate that a group of jihadis are likely to mount seaborne attack on Mumbai and one of the targets was Taj Hotel. Regarding Taj the IB also had sent warning to the state government and other agencies. What did the RAW do after the electronic input was received? Had they activated their assets in Karachi? Do they have any real-time asset in that area? If so, why did they fail to follow up the information?

The IB had also not followed up the information in its entire ramification covering coastal areas, mafia linkages and indigenous jihadis. Why? How long would they take shelter behind the veil of secrecy? IB is supposed to work out most ground details in cooperation with the state intelligence and police. Mere intelligence sharing does not qualify IB to retire for the day. Well known for its operational edges the IB should be able to follow up smallest lead on the ground. The ideal reporting format includes: i) intelligence statement (real input); ii) intelligence assessment (what is the real threat according to agency’s assessment); iii) intelligence implication (what can be real ground ramifications) and the likely follow up action by the reporting agency.

I am sorry to say that the two major central intelligence agencies of India do not follow this format followed by countries like the USA. It was imperative on the part of the RAW to follow up the initial input and feed further information. In case IB was aware of this RAW input it should have activated ground units to follow up. Why the Maharashtra unit of the IB failed to follow up? Mumbai has a strong unit. Why did it goof up? Why should these officers not be punished?

The mother agencies cannot wash away conscience and justify existence by merely claiming that they had catered some information. However, I do not endorse the half-baked views expressed by the Navy Chief. The Navy and the Coast Guard have a lot of questions to answer. Fortunately for them in India even after a Kargil the chiefs of intelligence agencies are rewarded with gubernatorial posts. Long live the indestructible Baboos!

However, as far as the IB is concerned there are severe limitations. IB requires minimum 100% increase in manpower and other resources. Our political class finds black money to loot but do not find legal money to spend for the security of the country, in spite of repeated threat from the neighbouring countries.

How long the people would tolerate? Why should not the people decide to dismantle this rotten system? Over last twenty years minimum 20 announcements were made to increase the capability of the IB. Precious little has been done and there is no constitutional author to take stock of the appalling condition of the IB as there is no Act of the Parliament to regulate the body and there is no accountability system. IB is a house maid of the PM and the Home Minister. Our politicians of all sheds have refused to add spine, morale and efficiency of the IB.

It is better less said about the RAW; an organization allegedly for Relatives and Associates’ Welfare. Since our people are not empowered to look into the functioning of these two agencies thorough their Parliamentary Overseeing Committee, the agencies tend to save their skins by taking shelter behind the indulgent politicians. It is high time the country wakes up and asks these questions. Please wake up, get angry and ask and force your political parties through your electoral power to attend to these important aspects of national security.

The state government (police and intelligence) did precious little to work out the ground details of the input. They were busy with tomfooling with the publicity glare of detecting Hindu Terrorism. The SIT, a virtual leaking can, was leaking information by the minutes. Before the State Assembly elections it was imperative for them to prove that Hindu Terrorism was as devastating for the country as the Muslim terrorism was.

In simple words the DG police Maharashtra and Commissioner of Police should have been sent home along with the Home and Chief Minister. These servants of the people are still merrily basking in the glory of post-attack glare, when they should have been in the dust bin. This happens because in India accountability is with the political master and not to the constitution and laws of the land. Some political bosses are protecting these two incompetent officers.

Indian states do not have organized professional police intelligence. The state intelligence branch, special branch and CID and SIT etc are not professional forces to cope with jihadi and terrorist challenges. The state police intelligence should have a comprehensible and adequately big force dedicated to intelligence tasks; they should be professionally trained and allowed to have longer tenure. At present the intelligence staffs are reshuffled between traffic, law & order, police station and other special arrangement duties. Intelligence generation requires longer nestling by officers handing a particular branch of activity. So far no state government has done this in a systematic manner.

As I said about the IB and the RAW, the state police forces and their intelligence units should also be made independent of political control and brought under statutory laws, making them accountable to an independent constitutional body. These recommendations have been made by many Police Commission Reports and the latest report submitted by Soli Sorabji Committee. The major states like Maharashtra, Gujarat and Rajasthan have not yet implemented the directives of the Supreme Court to bring about police reforms. Most political parties and leaders want to use the police as kitchen maids.

What can you expect from the kitchen maids of the politicians? Some curry is cooked well and most curries are spoiled. You have a choice; eat spoiled curries or force the kitchen maid to be professional.

Besides failing to secure the city Maharashtra police and its intelligence apparatus failed to arrange for proper protection of the vast cost lines. Marine policing and marine patrol exist in name. There is no protective police shield in the shallow waters and the innumerable minor ports, landing sited and creeks. In this vast unguarded border India stands totally exposed. The Coast Guard has limited capability. It cannot ply boats in very shallow waters and cannot afford to keep watch on more than 150,000- fishing and other vessels crisscrossing the Arabian Sea daily; among them many foreign owned fishing trawlers.

Our police forces do not have any record of the vessels operating in their areas of responsibility. They have very few fast moving patrolling vessels and these are not equipped with GPS and other sophisticated navigation systems. The coastal police do not have any low-coverage radar facility electronically connected to networks in neighbouring states. They do not have night vision binoculars and infrared firing target locator. With such colossal drawbacks it is very difficult to police, generate intelligence and intercept the intruders.

India stands naked in the vast western coastal-front.

There have been some debates if the government of India should militarily respond; carry out preemptory attacks against targets like Lashkar headquarter at Muridke and other terror training camps. I would not suggest military action, not as yet. I would not suggest drone attack on selected targets, not as yet. India is capable of staging a Munich or Entebbe as was done by Israel. However, India’s geopolitical situation is different. Such decision should not be taken without exhausting diplomatic miles, international pressure relay-races and geostrategic relocation of force alignments. War is fought to win; war is not for a stalemate and for merely inflicting some damages on the enemy. That conclusive state for winning a war has not yet come.

Moreover, by display of jingoistic belligerence India may not like to invite premature death for the fledgling democracy that has been allowed by the army to come to power. It is unlikely that this ramshackle democracy would strike permanent root. Democracy gives shivers to the Pakistani Establishment; yet we must respect the civil society of Pakistan, which by no means is involved with jihadi activities. Pakistan in army hand, that too in the hand of a former ISI chief, General Kiyani may not bring undiluted blessings. In fact, the Lashkar group trained for Mumbai operation started training over a year ago when Kiyani as ISI chief and Musharraf lorded over Pakistan. Who does not know that officers of Joint Intelligence Miscellaneous of the ISI were responsible for training this group? General Kiyani cannot be bathed in milk when the JIM was responsible for conceiving the operation in collaboration with the Lashkar-the official non-state player of the State of Pakistan.

Moreover, India must consider that nearly half of Pakistan is ruled by the Taliban, Al Qaeda and allied jihadi forces. Government writ runs only in limited areas. By Indian military intervention Pakistan can be weakened and pushed to the lap of the jihadis, but a Talibani Pakistan might set foot in India and poison our security ambience more than we are made to inhale now.

With these arrays of arguments and realities before us shall we just finish off by burning a few candles and gradually returning to the shell-Mumbai resilience is unparallel? Please do not stop with the candles, do not wipe the tears, do not wash the blood and do not draw a blanket on your memory. GET ANGRY AND KEEP THE FIRE BURNING. YOUR ANGER SHOULD NOT MELT DOWN LIKE THE CANDLE YOU HOLD. THE TRICOLOUR FLAUNTED BY YOUR CHILD SHOULD NOT BE TRAMPLED BY THE JIHADIS.

I am not advocating violence, I am not urging you take up arms. We have power to change the things-the political parties, their leadership, the police, intelligence and other segments of the bureaucracy without application of violence. We can change through ballot boxes; either by casting or refusing to cast our votes. Please remember we in India did not have a conclusive Revolution. A revolution of the peoples of India, as recorded in some history books by Congress party or communist historian and some Gandhi admirers would tell you the story of the Great Indian Revolution under India National Congress and Mahatma Gandhi that earned us freedom. Gandhi could not finish his revolution. It was hijacked either by violent mobs in 1942 or by his greedy junior colleagues. Practically after 1937 they had abandoned Gandhji. Please read again your history, written by independent minds and not by individual and family worshippers. You would understand why Gandhi failed.

Another person who dreamt revolution and accomplished to a great extent was Subhas Bose, the prodigal and abandoned child of India’s independence movement. Not only the British, the Indian communists and the Nehruite Congress were ready to fight him and his forces if he entered India with the Japanese. These two revolutions had shaken the British. But we received independence because an exhausted Britain wanted to escape from India as it had broken its spine in wars against Germany and Japan. Even in victory the British Lion lost its claws and teeth.

Let us have a revolution. There are several theories and debates how the French Revolution had come to change the course of human history. Thinkers like Edmund Burke, Thomas Carlyle, Louis Blanc, Albert Sorel etc differ vastly. But the Mother of all Revolutions came riding the shoulder of the people. The other great revolution of our times happened in America.

I request you to consider that we can bring this revolution through the use of our universal franchise-our election system, our constitution, our higher judiciary and the desire of our people to fight against internal systemic enemies in the form of stale political parties, chauvinistic regional leaders, caste barons and wholesale bribing of the electorate by astoundingly rich moneybags. Please have a look at the electoral rot we are in. This election system has degenerated to mafia war and money game. (Those who are interested to know the real character of our election may like to read We The People—A Story of Gangland Democracy authored by me. Hindi version coming soon. This is not an advertisement, this is a strong recommendation).

What can you achieve through your electoral power? Suppose we angry people minus the party loyalists boycott the next General Elections? What would happen? Can any party elected on only 10% of votes cast legally rule India, command the loyalty of the people and the Armed Forces? They cannot.

Would you invite the Army to rule? No, never. Army would be worse than present mafia ridden political structures.

Please adopt two weapons: the old one prescribed by Mahatma Gandhi to launch peaceful boycott of all elections, till the entire election laws are changed and constitutional and legal frameworks are devised to ensure that only “clean, involved and patriotic political leaders are allowed to contest elections.” Elimination of the mafia, criminals and known thieves among the politicians would not tantamount to violation of democracy. They should be treated as social and political outcasts. Participate in elections only when such conditions are restored.

In case of jihadi or terrorist attacks please do not let the politicians and the bureaucrats go scot-free. Launch peaceful Satyagraha till responsible officials, politicians and agencies are punished either through departmental or legal action.

Please launch mass hunger strike to protest against carnages like Mumbai attacks and do not compromise till the political leaders in the Centre and the States take responsibility, quit office and new ones, who can assure better security are ushered in. Democracy does not allow blatant violation of accountability. Accountability is the soul of democracy.

You have another potent weapon: mass refusal to pay certain taxes after formally notifying the President and the Chief Justice till the governments implement adequate measures to ensure security and safety of the people and devise ways and means to provide cutting edge capability to intelligence agencies to operate inside and outside the geographical border with sufficient State-backing.

Consider if you would force the political leadership to change governing ethos of the country and adopt prompt retaliatory policies like certain countries in the West have done to cope with the emerging terror attacks on their soil and against their citizen. If the rulers cannot protect they have no right to rule. They must go. And you can ensure that only through steeled determination, citizen’s cooperation, irrespective of your linguistic, religious, caste and other affiliations. Your unity can bring doom to the masters of the doomsday administration you are now being subjected to.

All these can be achieved peacefully, with very little or no violence on the part of the people. You can produce your own leaders. Do not wait for the moneybag fatties, caste lords and family worshippers; do not fall in the trap of religious propagandists and the Jurassic communists.

Please freeze your tears, please preserve those blood rivulets and steel your mind. Your determined non-cooperation and your sustained pressure alone can change the rotten imperial system of political and bureaucratic dispensation. Remember rupees 30 out of your hundred go to pay these politicians and bureaucrats. Why maintain these white elephants if they cannot protect you?

Your Anger is important, not for a violent revolution. But for uniting the people and fighting political and bureaucratic machines that has gone berserk. Instead of protecting you they are allowing the foreign aggressors to devour you.

You have two options: Violent resistance against a failing system like the Maoists are doing or the peaceful one that was abandoned by the Indians since Gandhi’s experiment with Quit India failed way back in 1942. Even in failure that was the globally hailed mechanism to fight. Remember one Mandela can change a people. One Black is US president today because another Black had taken the path of Gandhi. I suggest unite and opt for Gandhi’s mechanism. Make it successful this time.

Come join your hands and minds and cry: WE WANT CHANGE AND WANT IT NOW.
Chandragupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3469
Joined: 07 Dec 2008 15:26
Location: Kingdom of My Fair Lady

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Chandragupta »

So, the GoI has responded. I'm sure Porkistanis are shivering in their boots, after seeing our response -

No Cricket - This will surely change the hearts of Porki Generals & Islamic terrorists. It will also cripple Porki military & economy. Kudos to the Indian Government for taking this tough step, even though BCCI seemed to agree with Miss Burkha Dutt that Cricket needs to continue.

Lists of Fugitives - By now, the Dawoods & Masoods of Pakistan would have been shot in the head by our Porki friends, since we gave them the lists along with their locations. Good move by GoI & Sardar Ji.

Summon the ISI Chief - *CLAPS* What a move by Sardar Ji! Mazza aagaya! What a brainy move! If you want to catch the thief, what do you do? You ask the thief what he is going to do next!! Wow, Sardar ji used his brain really well. Now the ISI Chief will come to India & the intelligent & clever Sardar Ji will extract his future plans from him so that we can prevent RSS & Bajrang Dal causing more terrorist attacks.

New Law - Rajmata Ji is not content with putting Sadhvi & Purohit behind bars, she wants these cold blooded brutal terrorists dead. What better than a new Law to do it?! Sonia Ji has shown that India will not back down in our fight against Hindu terrorism.

What a government! Special mention to honourable Shri Antullah. The only person in India with the balls to speak the truth. Ofcourse, the RSS, BJP, Bajrang Dal, Abhinav Bharat worked together to kill Karkare. And some idiots think Karkare was killed by Pakistani terrorists, come on what were you thinking?!

With these people at the helm & with such tough measures being taken, I can finally sleep tight in my bed.

Thankyou Sardar Ji, Rajmata Ji & Antullah Ji.
sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10205
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by sum »

Sir, very very good post highlighting the "service" being done to our country by our "leaders".

I was still a bit confident about something good happening with everyone rallying behind the nation and ensuring a safe future for us but after Shri. antulays antics in the past few days and the muslim support(and Kangress support, of course) he is getting cutting across party lines, all my hopes for a rosy future are destroyed.

The image of a smiling Antulay asserting that he will never back down from his stand was almost like a hammer blow to me. I have sadly lost all hope for the future since there is no question of a country moving ahead when a main political outfit is so crassly anti-national with the support of 15% of the population.

I was barely able to sleep last 2 nights thinking about where our country is heading and the signs do not look any good. Actually, our position currently is what i would have hoped for my enemy nation with a sold out political class, huge number of fifth columnists and no unity to speak of... :cry: :cry:
Chandragupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3469
Joined: 07 Dec 2008 15:26
Location: Kingdom of My Fair Lady

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Chandragupta »

What Mr.Anutallah, Mulayam Singh, Amar Singh, Laloo & the Commies do not think about, is the future of the country. Any Muslim in the country if he raises any doubts about the terrorists being Pakistani or calls them Zionist conspirators or BJP-RSS men, should be hanged in public. Anyone who thinks that his religion, Islam is more important to him than his motherland, should either be burned alive or thrown to the other side of the Border to Bangladesh or Pakistan. As long as such people continue to live in India, we will always have a problem at our hands.

The Indian Muslims have become so paranoid & so Islamic that they will soon become to scoff at any step that the government (i.e any gov not run by Kaangress) to counter Islamic terrorism, as a Hindu conspiracy. Not long ago, my friends & I were having dinner at Karim's, just a stone's throw away from Delhi's Jama Masjid. As I finished my dinner & went outside to have a smoke, I noticed that there was this old bearded man delivering a speech right in front of the Mosque. Since the Mumbai terror attacks were still fresh wounds, I tried to listen to what the man was saying. And I was aghast on hearing what he said. The guy actually defended Pakistan & brought Malegaon into picture. The same old story of "Amriki-Yahudi" conspiracy & the usual suspects being BJP & RSS. I tried to find the same look on the faces of the muslims who were around, that I had, a look of disgust, but I did'nt find any.

The point is that the Indian Muslims are falling deep in jihadi shithole & we're not talking about a few hundred people, we're talking about potential 15 crore jehadi sympathisers.

'Leaders' like Antullah, Laloo & parties like Kaangress, SP, BSP who bend over backwards to appease muslims, do not know what grave injustice they are doing to the country. Muslims defending Pakistan & blaming 'Hindu' radicals should be stipped naked & paraded on streets and bitchslapped, that goes for anyone irrespective of his religion, if you side with your country's biggest enemy, you lose the right to live, simple as that. But instead of that, our politicians driven by petty vote bank politics see it as a opening, to get more minority votes. They're not just f****g the country but they're also pushing the Muslims into a deep dark corner.
suneels
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 23
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 17:09

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by suneels »

Hello
I will ditto that for Bangalore's new BAIL.
Was there last night to receive someone, the security is utterly lax.
Counted 15 people being allowed into the "passengers' arrival" area, with no id check, because they were wearing uniforms of various airlines groundstaff, but only 3 had their ID tags on.
The security sux bigtime.
In the US airports, apart from fingerprint ids, they also make everyone enter a glass chamber (without your shoes on), and air is blown from below and analysed through an analyser for traces of any suspect ions !
That may be the way to go (if we can afford it)
Cheers
Suneel
narayanan wrote:
(2) The Security checks inside Domestic and International Airports is very comprehensive.


I am not going to give out specifics, but very respectfully, I would suggest that whoever is in charge of security at Mumbai airport should be summarily fired and have their ass kicked all the way to Juhu. I am talking of the situation there as of 1 week ago. The "chalta hai" chaos there is utterly shocking.
Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17167
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Rahul M »

chandragupta, its antulay. not antullah.
he comes from the hallowed list of corrupt kangressi politicians. He was forced to resign as Mah CM following an expose by Arun Shourie in Ind Express.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66589
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Singha »

he had a meeting with the PM today. but neither confirms nor denies handing his
resignation letter.

the shameless kangress is trying to gauge if they can keep him around. a sarkari mullah
is always more controllable than a feral mulla found in the wilds of the hinterland...kind of
like the sarkari musalman's of NWFP and pakjab :mrgreen:
Guddu
BRFite
Posts: 1059
Joined: 01 Dec 2008 06:22

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Guddu »

[quote="Singha"]Stratfor has a three part analysis of the geographical issues that make pakistan the violent cesspool it is. from the free excerpts, I could make out

Some snippets from Strat part III.
"Pakistan historically has been an economically weak, mismanaged and corrupt state. The Pakistani military elite, deeply entrenched in the economy, holds much of the country’s wealth as well as a number of key assets in the corporate and real estate sectors. The agricultural industry remains the country’s economic backbone, employing some 44 percent of the population, yet accounting for only 21 percent of Pakistan’s gross domestic product (GDP). The remainder of the GDP comes from services (53 percent) and industry (27 percent).

"Pakistan’s most fundamental economic problem is that it has very few natural resources to tap in the first place. And it is not necessarily a matter of lacking the resources; security issues in the country’s northwest have long constrained even basic exploration in much of the country, going back to times that predate the British colonial experience. In order to industrialize, therefore, Pakistan has been forced to import whatever materials it needs without first being able to establish a source of income. The unavoidable results are high debt and a sustained, massive trade deficit. As of 2008, the country’s national debt was more than 60 percent of GDP, and the trade deficit about 9.3 percent of GDP."
"What truly sets Pakistan apart from other countries in terms of economic performance is a geography that greatly curtails its economic opportunities. Of Pakistan’s cities, only Karachi remains globally competitive by most measures. Karachi is the country’s only real port and has easy access to major trade lanes. Moving north along the Indus Valley, one becomes tightly hemmed in by marshes and deserts to the east and arid highlands to the west. The result is that Karachi functions as a city-state unto itself, with the bulk of Pakistan’s population found much farther upstream, where the Indus Valley widens.

The upper Indus is where the country’s best infrastructure is located and where any deep, integrated development might take place. But such development is impossible for three reasons. First, the region’s high population has required extensive irrigation, which has drawn down the Indus’ water level, making it unnavigable by any but the smallest of ships. The upper Indus region is, in effect, cut off from Karachi except by far more expensive rail or road transport. Second, the upper Indus’ natural market and trading partner is none other than India. Indian-Pakistani hostility denies the region the chance for progress. Finally, what water the Indus does have is not under Pakistan’s control; the headwaters of not just the Indus but nearly all of its major tributaries lie not in Pakistan, but in Indian-controlled territory. India is damming up those rivers, both to generate electricity and to further tilt the balance of power away from Pakistan.

The remainder of Pakistan’s population is split off (or perhaps more accurately, sequestered) into the mountainous region of the North-West Frontier Province and Federally Administered Tribal Areas, a region that is simply too remote to justify developing under normal circumstances. With the notable exception of Karachi, economic development in Pakistan is virtually impossible without the country somehow getting past its conflict with India.

Thus, the question must be asked: How is Pakistan able to survive? Economic development has been nearly impossible since partition from India, and certainly since the United Kingdom joined the EEC. The answer, put simply, is that Islamabad has been very creative. What Pakistan has succeeded in doing is leveraging the political and security aspects of its geography in order to keep its system going. Just as geography has been Pakistan’s curse, to a great degree it also has become its lifeline. Pakistan sits at the intersection of many regions, countries and cultures, including Iran, India, Afghanistan, Shiite Islam, Sunni Islam and Hinduism. This mix makes ruling Pakistan a major headache on the best of days, but it also means that powers beyond Pakistan’s immediate frontiers have a vested interest in seeing Pakistan not fail.

British diplomatic and economic support has maintained the Pakistani-Indian balance of power. All manner of Chinese support, including the sharing of nuclear technology, has strengthened Pakistan against a far superior India. Economic and energy support from Arabs of the Persian Gulf has lent strength to Pakistan when it seemed that India would overwhelm it. And support from the United States, which proved critical in backing the Pakistanis against the Soviet-leaning Indians during the Cold War, continues today in exchange for Pakistan’s support in the war against militant Islamism.

Islamabad’s success in leveraging its geography means that the country has not had to succeed economically on its merits for decades. Put another way, Pakistan has leveraged its geopolitical position not only to push for softer security policies from the United States or India, but also to pay the bills.

This has certainly been replicated in current times. None other than U.S. Central Command chief Gen. David Petraeus was reported to have personally intervened with the International Monetary Fund (IMF) to ensure that Pakistan received a US$7.6 billion loan in November, a loan for which Pakistan certainly did not qualify. Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates chipped in another US$2 billion in credit, while China contributed US$500 million and the Asian Development Bank provided another US$300 million — all in the past few weeks.

While these funds certainly will delay Pakistan’s day of reckoning, they are unlikely to prevent it. Pakistan’s economy is flirting with becoming nonfunctional, and it cannot operate in the black any more. Doing that would at a minimum require slashing military and subsidy expenditures, an impossible move for a socially seething country operating on a war footing (and, incidentally, a move the IMF loan supposedly will require).

But the real danger is that the world is shifting away from Pakistan, and with that shift, Pakistan’s ability to leverage its geography diminishes. The United States views Pakistan to be as much part of the problem of the Afghan insurgency as it is part of the solution. Oil prices have dropped by US$100 a barrel in less than five months, drastically limiting the Gulf Arabs’ ability to dole out cash. China has many concerns, and fighting Islamist extremism that has leaked into its own western provinces is something Beijing is now weighing against its commitment to Pakistan. The result might not prove to be a total cutoff of funds, but a slackening of support certainly seems to be in the offing. And without such outside support, Pakistan will have to make it or break it on its own — something it has never proved capable of doing."
sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6593
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by sanjaykumar »

There have been so many unromantic articles on Pakistan since Mumbai, it is almost embarrassing. I believe there has been a lot of latent goodwill towards India that is now surfacing. Hope India does not blow it as did the US after 9/11.
Locked