Indian Response to Terrorism

[shynee]

Defence meet keeps option of Pak strike open

20 Dec 2008, 0222 hrs IST, TNN

NEW DELHI: Keeping the military option alive and kicking in face of Pakistan doublespeak on the crackdown on terror, a top-level meeting was held on Saturday evening to review the security situation in the region and the state of defence preparedness of the armed forces.

It was a clear signal to Pakistan that it could not look away from its commitment to take concrete action against terror emanating from its soil soon after India, under persuasion from the West, indicated it would not prefer to use force. Interestingly, the meeting also came a day after foreign minister Pranab Mukherjee declared that India was keeping all its options open since Pakistan has not kept the assurances it has given.

Though there was no official word on Saturday's meeting, attended by Mukherjee, defence minister A K Antony, the three Service chiefs - General Deepak Kapoor, Admiral Sureesh Mehta and Air Chief Marshal F H Major -, among others, sources confirmed that all options were discussed, with an audit of pros and cons of each possible scenario.

"The option of cross-border surgical strikes has not been abandoned. The armed forces, on their part, are maintaining a high level of alertness to meet any eventuality, as they have been directed,'' said a source.

Saturday's meeting came in the backdrop of Pakistan trying to deflect the focus from terrorism, with its frequent flip-flops on action against Jamaat-ud-Dawa, the front for Lashkar-e-Taiba, or even the lone surviving terrorist behind the 26/11 strikes, Ajmal Ameer Kasab.
Pakistan president Asif Ali Zardari, for instance, told journalists on Thursday there was no "real evidence'' that the Mumbai attackers came from his country. Apart from other evidence, this claim has now even been contested by former Pakistan premier Nawaz Sharif, who held that he had personally checked that Kasab belonged to Faridkot village in Pakistan's Punjab.

Interestingly, global intelligence service provider Stratfor also declared in its latest report that "Indian military operations against targets in Pakistan have, in fact, been prepared and await the signal to go forward''. As reported earlier by TOI, the armed forces are keeping their powder dry "to carry out strikes'' if the political leadership "so desires at any point in time''. "The deep sense of anger in India has even been conveyed to US, Russia and other countries,'' said a source.

IAF sources reiterated to TOI that it would not take more than three to four hours for IAF fighter jets to carry out strikes against terror camps and other targets in Pakistan and Pakistan-occupied Kashmir with laser-guided ‘smart’ bombs. The Army also does not have to mobilise on a large, visible manner as was done during Operation Parakram after the December 2001 terror attack on Parliament, practicing as it has its "cold start'' strategy for rapid and multiple thrusts into enemy territory at short notice.

With the growing feeling in the Indian security establishment that Pakistan is reverting to its old ways, after initial signs of addressing some of Indian concerns, the military option for India has come right back to the table.

[brihaspati]

I think Antulay should be appreciated for his efforts. He provides a good pointer already discussed I think before here. Some time ago I speculated exactly about the possible reasons behind the concentration of the "top" ATS intelligence operatives who appeared to have carried a lot of "recent intelligence" about the Malegaon investigations - all moving in together in a direction where they are eliminated quickly by the Islamic terrorists. Yes, Mr. Antulay what about investigating the possibility that the same forces that probably engineered the Malegaon investigations by "planting" evidence to implicate the "Hindutva" forces and divert political as well as security attention away from Islamic Jihad (double agents, Mr. Antulay?) integrated the manipulation of the ATS with the planned "attack" on Mumbai such that the main officers who could later face pressure and therefore reveal any political "orders" to implicate "Hindutva" - were eliminated after the maximum political mileage to be gained from the Malegaon blasts were extracted - dead men do not talk, eh!

[brihaspati]

"The option of cross-border surgical strikes has not been abandoned. The armed forces, on their part, are maintaining a high level of alertness to meet any eventuality, as they have been directed,'' said a source.

This is more likely to be propaganda, to put pressure on Pakistan to do the needful to assuage "Indian voters'" feelings. As the general elections loom nearer, it is likely that GOI would like to keep on appearing to be taking steps and not shying away from acting tough. But the main political vacillation is about the UPA's doubts about how far action against Pakistan and Islamic Jihad will alienate Indian Muslim vote. Only if UPA feels that NDA is unstoppable or a "Hindu" consolidation is taking place that can signal the ultimate end of the Congress hold on Indian politics - will the GOI take "cross-border strike" option at the critical time horizon when it can have an impact on the general elections.

[shynee]

Dawood prepares for secret birthday party

MUMBAI: Even as the Indian government continues to put pressure on Islamabad to hand over Dawood Ibrahim to it, the don gets ready to celebrate his 53rd birthday on December 26 at an undisclosed location, probably outside Pakistan.

According to a source in the underworld, the star guest to this year's extravaganza will be a high-profile international arms dealer who reportedly handles financial transactions of Dawood. When an Indian politician had to receive a kickback worth crores in an international business deal, he sought the help of Dawood, who took the services of this arms dealer to facilitate the funds transfer, a source told TOI on Saturday. A secret meeting was held at Geneva last year, which was attended by Dawood-who has several passports issued by the Pakistani government-the politician and the arms-dealer where the money transaction was worked out. "The Centre has report of this meeting, but it is not acting on it,'' an official said.

Usually, an array of Indian businessmen, including some builders, are invited to Dawood's birthday bashes at Karachi, which are lavish affairs attended by senior ISI officers. In previous years, the Indian businessmen land in Dubai from where "arrangements'' are made to ferry them to Karachi. However, this time, with all eyes on the underworld don, thanks to his probable role in the November 26 terror attack on Mumbai, Dawood has shifted his party venue to a secret place, a source said. There is increasing evidence that funds for the terror strike were sent by the D gang-which is under the thumb of the ISI- from two accounts in London, a source said.

Indian security agencies are reportedly keeping tabs on the movements of known business partners of Dawood in Mumbai, including a gutkha baron and a top builder, to find out if they are going to Dubai en route to the secret birthday bash. "However, all these efforts add up to nothing as the government is not at all inclined to crack down on Dawood's financial empire in India despite us gathering all kinds of information about it,'' a security official said.

Dawood, who has a major benami stake in an airline operating out of Pakistan to several international destinations, is now trying to get permission to operate to India through his front men, the source added.

[samuel.chandra]

Very hard to predict. Multiple theories on what the UPA might be doing:

1) GOI always knew it would come down to military action: Does anyone know the state of the alternate transport route the US was planning to setup (wasn't it 8 weeks for that to be setup). Once that is ready, I think MMS will sound the bugle. US and India might be acting in tandem to put pressure on TSP. If TSP does not budge, UPA has no other option. All this diplomatic pressure is basically exhausting all options before the eventual military action. The reason TSP went back on JUD-banning in such haste might be because they see the writing on the wall and don't want to piss off the jihadists (the jihadists obviously are better motivated than their military).

2) UPA is playing politics as usual. They are keeping up the hawkish position in the media because they don't want BJP to come in and talk tough. They know BJP will raise this issue in the election but their hope is that they could somehow quieten the janta with "hame dekhna hai" crap. Anthulay episode basically brought the UPA minority politics back in the media...coupled with fresh mumbai wounds, the electorate might just decide that UPA needs to go. The longer they hold on to Anthulay, the worse its going to get for UPA. Beats me why BJP does not come out with a clear statement demanding military action(whats with the no-dialogue crap?)... maybe they know its coming.

"The option of cross-border surgical strikes has not been abandoned. The armed forces, on their part, are maintaining a high level of alertness to meet any eventuality, as they have been directed,'' said a source.

This is more likely to be propaganda, to put pressure on Pakistan to do the needful to assuage "Indian voters'" feelings. As the general elections loom nearer, it is likely that GOI would like to keep on appearing to be taking steps and not shying away from acting tough. But the main political vacillation is about the UPA's doubts about how far action against Pakistan and Islamic Jihad will alienate Indian Muslim vote. Only if UPA feels that NDA is unstoppable or a "Hindu" consolidation is taking place that can signal the ultimate end of the Congress hold on Indian politics - will the GOI take "cross-border strike" option at the critical time horizon when it can have an impact on the general elections.

[Muppalla]

If one reads the Dawood story above, then someone inside is powerfully trying/acting against UPA to nail it into some corner via a scandal a.k.a Bofors for the rest of its term. However, it is too early to say.

[Chandragupta]

chandragupta, its antulay. not antullah.
he comes from the hallowed list of corrupt kangressi politicians. He was forced to resign as Mah CM following an expose by Arun Shourie in Ind Express.

I know his real name is A R Antulay, but somehow, Antullah suits him more imho.

For the UPA, they know that the public will not be content with their rhetoric, and contrary to what they think, Indian voters are not stupid, they can see that the UPA has been buying time all this while.

Now, there is no chance of Pakistan actually delivering on any of their promises, and that leaves India with only one option - punish Pakistan with military strikes, but guess what, the UPA will have big problems doing that since that will cut their mullah votes who would then vote for Mayawati's BSP & Mullah-I-am Singh's SP. BSP already did damage to Congress in the state elections & Congress would be wary of Mayawati's threat. All in all, I believe that UPA will NOT undertake military strikes, all they would do is to keep up the rhetoric & plead to the US behind the curtains, to bail them out of this situation. The US will then make a few statements, and a few US think tanks will publish reports on how India almost bombed Pakistan but stopped due to some reason that will be the saving grace for UPA.

Hopefully, the voters can see through what is happening & don't make the wrong choice of voting for UPA again next year.

[Rony]

Dawood prepares for secret birthday party
When an Indian politician had to receive a kickback worth crores in an international business deal, he sought the help of Dawood, who took the services of this arms dealer to facilitate the funds transfer, a source told TOI on Saturday. A secret meeting was held at Geneva last year, which was attended by Dawood-who has several passports issued by the Pakistani government-the politician and the arms-dealer where the money transaction was worked out. "The Centre has report of this meeting, but it is not acting on it,'' an official said.

Indian security agencies are reportedly keeping tabs on the movements of known business partners of Dawood in Mumbai, including a gutkha baron and a top builder, to find out if they are going to Dubai en route to the secret birthday bash.

Any guesses who is this 'Indian' politician , international arms dealer, gutka baraon and top builder are ?

[John Snow]

SImple boss
Pawar got the pawar

As Avram noted the problem is with in India, damit I cant own 350 sq yards of property, where as these ******** own everything in billions.

Our netas are our home grown terrorists, abett,aid, comfort, nurture, direct and protect.
One of our mavericks has a headline blog "Send Pasha Saluja to Delhi....' not a request

Jokers like these are defacto admitting that Pashas control India, any way Manmohan is already working for his arrival based on Indian Mr. M directions

[Chinmayanand]

In a nutshell, our own beloved politicians and builders and gutkha kings and bollywood baadshahs are funding the terror against us , poor indians. Not to foget the BSF apparatus which is deeply indulged in cross-border smuggling of anything from laloo brand bhainsh to mulla brand heroin.Shell out some mullahs and India is up for sale.Where is my cut?

[darshhan]

Hey guys.This is my first post on this forum.I just wrote an article.Please review it and give your comments

India's incomplete Nuclear Doctrine

Recently after Mumbai terrorist attacks which took a huge toll on the precious human life in india,people have been rightfully clamoring for action.However according to me before taking any action against terrorists and their sponsors in Pakistan we should ask whether our nuclear doctrine is complete and if not so then what should be done to modify it.

The current nuclear doctrine states if any country attacks India with the weapons of mass destruction(i.e nuclear,biological and chemical weapons) then India will also attack that country with full force of its nuclear arsenal.So far so good.But is it enough.

I am going to tell you a story so that you may understand the issue in a better way and explain it to the other indians.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
So here it comes.Once upon a time there was a car racing competition(akin to formula 1 or Nascar).It was also asia specific something like asian championship.There were lot of drivers from all over asia competing for this championship.However the favorites to win the race were two drivers by the name of Hari and Huang.Now Hari was a simple fellow with no ill feeling towards his fellow competitors including Huang.Infact he had a healthy respect for them.Make no mistake he wanted to win but not by hurting others.

However Huang was a altogether a different person.Extremely cunning and manipulative he was intensely jealous of Hari.As Hari was kind and generous other drivers used to trust him more.Huang decided that in order to win the race he has to kill Hari as Hari was also a more solid driver.But he did not have the courage to attack Hari directly as Hari was also very strong.

But Huang being of a very evil disposition he came upon a very ingenious plan to finish off Hari for once and for all.He contacted a street thug by the name of Humza to kill Hari.Now Humza didn't have that capability to attack Hari on his own.In fact last time he tried to take on Hari he was beaten very badly.He managed to survive only because Hari had forgiven him. So Huang supplied him with weapons and training.Huang calculated that both Hari and Humza would kill each other,thereby clearing his path towards Championship crown.

Humza also had rich cousins in middle east by the name of Hussein and Hassan who kept him supplied with money and other logistics to do the job.Humza also had previous beef with Hari.He was all too eager to brawl with Hari once more to avenge his previous humiliation.As he was not very intelligent (result of being indoctrinated throughout the childhood in a madarsa) he was unable to realize that Huang was manipulating him.

On the day before race was supposed to start Huang finally set the plan in motion.Humza attacked Hari and shot him.

From here there are two endings.

Ending 1 : Since Hari was not prepared well for the ambush he was barely able to retaliate.Somehow he managed to shoot Humza killing him although he was himself severely wounded in the process.As a result he was paralyzed and Huang went on to win the championship.

Verdict on Ending 1 : Justice was not done as Huang managed to get away scot free as did Hussein and Hassan.Humza was killed but it is not enough.The real conspirators are still enjoying their lives.Secondly the incident shows that Hari was not prepared well even after knowing that enemies were after him.This could have been avoided.

Ending 2 : Hari was anticipating this action on the part of Humza and had prepared himself well.He was travelling in an armored car and wearing body armor.He also had lot of ammunition himself.As soon as Humza started shooting he retaliated as well.In the ensuing shootout Humza was killed outright.Autopsy reports showed that Humza had suffered over Three Hundred bullet wounds.Hari also suffered some injuries but he managed to survive.Then he went to Huang's house and shot him many times.He did not spare Hussein and Hassan either.They were sent packing to hell in the quickest way possible.As for Hari no one knows what happened of him whether he managed to live or died as a result of the shootouts.But even if he died one thing is clear.He lived with Honor and he died with Honor.

Verdict on Ending 2 : Justice was served to all the conspirators and enemies of Hari.They got what they deserved.
----------------------------------------------------------------

The current nuclear doctrine will lead to ending 1 which is inherently unjust.We all know which countries supplied Pakistan with knowhow and resources for developing nuclear weapons.We also know that they did this to destroy India.

If we attack Pakistan only in retaliation these countries would have achieved their objectives.Surely we cannot allow it.

My suggestion is lets modify our nuclear doctrine to enable justice.We should attack Pakistan as well as those countries which helped it in its pursuit of nuclear weapons(no need to name them).Let Huang die as well.

Strength,Pride and Honor

[sum]

My suggestion is lets modify our nuclear doctrine to enable justice.We should attack Pakistan as well as those countries which helped it in its pursuit of nuclear weapons(no need to name them).Let Huang die as well.

IIRC, our nuclear doctrine already ensures that!!??

[Rony]

Dawood prepares for secret birthday party
When an Indian politician had to receive a kickback worth crores in an international business deal, he sought the help of Dawood, who took the services of this arms dealer to facilitate the funds transfer, a source told TOI on Saturday. A secret meeting was held at Geneva last year, which was attended by Dawood-who has several passports issued by the Pakistani government-the politician and the arms-dealer where the money transaction was worked out. "The Centre has report of this meeting, but it is not acting on it,'' an official said.

Indian security agencies are reportedly keeping tabs on the movements of known business partners of Dawood in Mumbai, including a gutkha baron and a top builder, to find out if they are going to Dubai en route to the secret birthday bash.

Any guesses who is this 'Indian' politician , international arms dealer, gutka baraon and top builder are ?

The 'Indian' politician with Dawood links is Abu Azmi of Samajwadi Party.

The gutka barons with Dawood links are Rasiklal Dhariwal of Manikchand Gutka and J.M.Joshi of Goa gutka .

The top builders with dawoood links are Krishnamilan Shukla alias Baba Shukla of Buildertech Engineer .

The international arms dealer with dawood links is the Saudi arms dealer Adnan Khashoggi .A desi Hubli arms dealer, Shashidhar Ullagaddimath also have links with Dawood.

[Arun_S]

Islamabad must act, says Pranab Mukherjee: NDTV

Press Trust of India
Sunday, December 21, 2008, (Kolkata)
Taking a tough stance, External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee on Sunday said that Pakistan had been given enough evidence regarding the Mumbai terror attacks and "Islamabad must act".

"Pakistan has been contradicting its statements. Enough evidence has been given to Pakistan. Pakistan must cooperate and not contradict us. Mere talk is not enough. Pakistan has to act," Mukherjee told a conference at the Bengal Chamber of Commerce in Kolkata.

"Instead of contradiction and denial, they will have to take action," Mukherjee added.

The issue of terrorism within Pakistan being deeply embroiled in its internal politics has been found true, the minister said.

"The infrastructure of terror remained unchallenged in Pakistan and so did the logistical support to anti-Indian terrorists from multiple hands due to emergence of multiple centres of power," Mukherjee said.

On India's vision for a developed and prosperous South Asia, Mukherjee said, New Delhi sought to promote an environment of peace and stability in the SAARC region and the world for accelerated socio-economic development and national security.

"At the same time, one cannot choose one's neighbour," he said in an apparent dig at Pakistan.

"The goal of the SAARC countries should be to create a peaceful periphery to enable all of us to pursue our own development," the union minister said and questioned the commitment of some neighbouring countries to pursue a common goal of peace and development in the South Asian region.

"The internal development in our neighbour countries, cross-border issues, ethnicities and migration among others make the bilateral relations a complex and sensitive issue as the domestic and foreign policy gets closely intertwined," he said.

[sum]

After having gone all over town talking about not being fooled by Paki antics this time around unlike last time, do we have any option other than strikes since pak seems to be getting more defiant day by day?

[Dhiman]

My suggestion is lets modify our nuclear doctrine to enable justice.We should attack Pakistan as well as those countries which helped it in its pursuit of nuclear weapons(no need to name them).Let Huang die as well.

There is a lot of support for a "war" in Pakistan. The levels of frustration in Pakistan are so high, after multiple failed military and civilian governments, that a lot of people there look at war a way to purge Pakistan of all its self-perceived wrong and make a new beginning. So while the Pakistanis still hate India, there are many in Pakistan who are truly hoping for a war so as to rid the country of its misery and help them make a new start rather than to score a point against India. It their hearts of hearts they know that any all out war would lead to complete destruction of current Pakistani military/establishment and hence a new start.

From the Indian perspective, a war with Pakistan (actually Pakistani Military and ISI power centers to be more accurate) is inevitable. It can only be delayed, but not avoided. It has already been written into our destiny. The only open issue is when: either now as response to mumbai terror attacks or later after one or two more "shocking" acts of terrorism that can only increase the public anger on netas to do their rightful karam.

Even a short punitive strike won't help to eliminate future acts of terror. Anything short an action that eliminates the current Pakistan military/isi/jehadi establishment won't help. Under such a situation, the only option left is to apply the element of surprise to launch a massive missile and air strikes against pakistani air force, missile, and radar establishment so as to gain complete air supremacy over Pakistan in the shortest possible time - say 2 to 3 days. Once that is done impose a complete no-fly-zone over Pakistan and reserve the right to shoot down anything on the ground in future. Use it as a bargaining chip to ensure that ISI is dismantled and Army stays out of politics and in its barracks in Pakistan while letting the civilian government do its job - hopefully there are saner elements in Pakistani civilian administration.

Maintain a no-fly-zone over Pakistan for next 20 years and use it to force them to stop dealing with China, democratize Pakistan, introduce sanity (by bombing the shit out of insane assylums in Pakistan), open trade, and do things in a more constructive and friendly manner. Only when Laloo and his favorite cows + cowshed are appointment "interim" governor of Pakistan will there be hope in Pakistan.

[BSR Murthy]

Rahul M wrote:
chandragupta, its antulay. not antullah.
he comes from the hallowed list of corrupt kangressi politicians. He was forced to resign as Mah CM following an expose by Arun Shourie in Ind Express.

Actually Abdul Rahaman Antulay to be complete.

[kshirin]

The Unspeakable speaks.
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/i-am-proud-o ... 029-3.html

I am proud of my comments: A R Antulay
Rajdeep Sardesai / CNN-IBN

Minority Affairs Minister A R Antulay remains defiant in the face of intense criticism for his comments questioning the circumstances of Anti-Terrorism Squad Chief, Hemant Karkare's death in the Mumbai terror attack. Speaking to CNN-IBN's Editor-in-Chief Rajdeep Sardesai on the show The Weekend Edition, Antulay was unfazed, even saying he was proud of what he had said and had no regrets whatsoever. Antulay had suggested that there should be a probe into the circumstances of Hemant Karkare's killing on 26/11.

Rajdeep Sardesai: Do you have any regrets at the end of the day, for all that you have said this week? Do you think you have embarrassed the country, the Congress party?
A R Antulay: None. No regrets. I haven't embarrassed anyone. On the contrary, those who have twisted my statement have embarrassed the country, helped Pakistan and they have done grave injustice to the nation.
Rajdeep Sardesai: You said very clearly that there should be an enquiry into Hemant Karkare's death. Why did he not go to Oberoi and Taj, why did he go to Cama hospital? Essentially, you are raising a question over someone's death who it has been confirmed has been killed by Pakistani terrorists. Why did you have to raise questions on his death, thereby suggesting that there was some foul play in Karkare's death?
A R Antulay: In all humility I submit that Karkare and his two colleagues were killed by Pakistan. It has never been in doubt. Only a fool would say so and Antulay is no fool. No Indian and no human being can say that. The only question which is correct and which I continue to stand by and will for the rest of my life - is that from CST station, rather than he going to Taj hotel, Oberoi hotel and Nariman House, how is that he went in the opposite direction to Cama hospital where there was nothing?
Rajdeep Sardesai: Sir but you are a responsible member of the Cabinet and as a result, the insinuation that you are making somewhere down the line is that because Hemant Karkare was investigating the Malegaon blast in which some Hindu right wing extremists had been caught, that is why this could have been foul play - that one of them could have called up Hemant Karkare and led him to his death. You have no evidence to that effect or do you?
A R Antulay: You are from Maharashtra. I was the Chief Minister of Maharashtra for 18 months and three days. I have been in Maharashtra all my life. Did you ever sense any communalism or communal tinge in me?
Rajdeep Sardesai: That's exactly it sir. You are not a communal politician and yet today, you are being embraced by fundamentalists because you are seeing as catering to the worst kind of stereotypes and prejudices and vote bank politics. Today who is supporting you Mr Antulay? The number of those supporting you are fundamentalists. You are weaking the position of the liberal Muslims, by somewhere down the line suggesting that Hemant Karkare was killed because he was investigating the Malegaon case.
A R Antulay: Let me now explain. I did not even the raise the name of Malegaon. Anybody can interpret, misinterpret and say anything. I cannot control anybody. My only question is what made a brilliant man and a brave soldier who jumped into the fray to defend his country go to Cama hospital.
Rajdeep Sardesai: But Mr Antulay you are a member of the Cabinet - a Cabinet which is conducting an investigation which has already nailed the involvement of Pakistani based terrorists - and you are raising questions on Karkare's death that can be exploited by others. The Pakistan Nation's editorial says: "The truth behind the carnage is not be established beyond any doubt, since Indians continue to refuse to share the evidence with Pakistan. Although the death of ATS Chief Hemant Karkare had raised eyebrows, the Indian Minority Affairs Minister's remark that 'he was a victim of terrorism plus something' has caused an uproar. If New Delhi were really serious about getting to the root of this attack, it would do well to investigate them." Effectively, you are voicing what Pakistan is saying here, sir.A R Antulay: Rajdeep ji, you are so intelligent and hold a lot of esteem in my eye and in the eyes of many Indians, so are you taking the words of what a Pakistani newspaper writes as the Bible?
Rajdeep Sardesai: Sir you have given Pakistan a stick in some way to sort of obfuscate the issues of 26/11.
A R Antulay: This has been done by the media. Not that you intended to do it, or it was deliberate, but the media twisted it and said it the first time that I said Pakistani terrorists did not kill Hemant Karkare.
Rajdeep Sardesai: You are always saying that Pakistani terrorists killed Hemant Karkare, but you are still raising doubts over his death. You are asking for a probe. Why do you want a probe into his death?
A R Antulay: No, because I don't think that Hemant Karkare should be treated like any Tom, Dick and Harry. Please. He was a great man and a great soldier for the country.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Sir, your intentions may be honest but the manner in which you played them out in the end and the timing of it - a Cabinet Bill is passed and the next day you raise questions over Karkare's death. Haven't you embarrassed the Prime Minister and the Cabinet? A R Antulay: No that is where you know I want to say that I did not say anything. I was told in Parliament that CNN-IBN had been carrying the statement since the morning and then with the permission of the Speaker I had to clarify my stance.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Sir, noted lyricist Javed Akhtar had said to CNN-IBN on Friday: "I don't know why we have these kind of fears that if his resignation is accepted, Muslims will get upset and if we ban organisations like the Bajrang Dal, Hindus will get upset. How long are we going to accept things which are not secular because we are afraid of upsetting one community or the other?" Please respond to Mr Akhtar's statement. Today you seem to be catering to some kind of prejudice of the worst kind, to the fears and anxieties of those Muslims who perhaps now fear that Hemant Karkare was killed for reasons other than just him being a victim of a terrorist attack.
A R Antulay: My dear son, in my constituency, there are hardly eight per cent Muslims. I don't have to cater to the constituency of Muslims at all. Predominantly, it is the Hindus who have been voting me in power continuously.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Sir, but tell me one thing. At a time when the country needs to be united, you seem to be in some way dividing the country. Doesn't that worry you? Because you are raising an issue which could divide the people. Suddenly Hemant Karkare's death is becoming the focus, rather than the focus being on Kasab and Pakistan-based terrorism.
A R Antulay: Why do you think that somebody from the Opposition got Hemant Karkare to go to Cama hospital? I know it is in your mind and you do not say it, but you imply it. Why can't you think of someone who might be an enemy and gave him a call.
Rajdeep Sardesai: You are saying someone may have given a call to Karkare and asked him to go to Cama hospital? You don't have any proof of this.
A R Antulay: If I had the proof for this, I would not have asked for any investigation. Investigation is required when you don't have a conclusion or conclusive proof.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Sir, effectively you are damaging the case that the entire Mumbai Police had built up that this was an operation by Pakistan-based terrorists by bringing in another agenda into it.
A R Antulay: Ten lads between the ages of 19 and 22 came to Mumbai over a period of a few days and then took the city hostage for three days. A man of the stature of Hemant Karkare would have made the terrorists shiver.
Rajdeep Sardesai: You have given your resignation to the Prime Minister. Are you serious about this or is this one big drama that you are enacting? Are you basically putting the ball in the Prime Minister and Congress Chairperson Sonia Gandhi's court?
A R Antulay: Whether I gave the resignation to the Prime Minister or not is a moot question, I will not say yes or no - I will neither confirm it nor deny it.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Do you believe that you have embarrassed yourself, the party and India?
A R Antulay: I have done India proud, by raising the question of Hemant Karkare's death.
Rajdeep Sardesai: You don't think that you have given BJP a handle for targetting your party, you don't think that you are dividing the country, you don't think that you have given Pakistan a handle? You don't think that you have misled people? You don't think that you have politicised an issue and made a political capital out of it? None of this?
A R Antulay: On the contrary, what I want to know is who pushed Karkare in the throes of death at the hands of Pakistani terrorists. He was bold and intelligent. He would not have gone to Cama, he would have gone to the Taj hotel. I feel that I have united the country with what I have said.
Rajdeep Sardesai: You were getting marginalised in the Cabinet and this was your way of building yourself in the party, of building a Muslim constituency for yourself?
A R Antulay: Who says I was being marginalised in the Cabinet?
Rajdeep Sardesai: You have not played vote bank politics?
A R Antulay: No not at all. I have never done it and I will never do it. And I will do whatever the Party President and the Prime Minister ask me to do.
Rajdeep Sardesai: A R Antulay, appreciate your joining us and giving us your position, showing us where you stand on the issue.

[kshirin]

And:

Pakistan unable to control terror, says Stephen Cohen Madhu Bharathi
Sunday, December 21, 2008, (Chennai)
More voices continue to speak out against Pakistan's inability to control terror being sponsored from its territory.

Well-known US strategic analyst Stephen P Cohen in an exclusive interview to NDTV has said that what happened in Mumbai is the second major international crisis after 9/11 in terms of people from 22 different countries being killed.

Excerpts from the interview:

NDTV: What should Pakistan do?

Stephen P Cohen, Senior Fellow, Brookings Institute, Washington DC: The problem with Pakistan for a number of years has been that it does not control its own state. There are elements in Pakistan who in the past wanted to provoke India. Or exercise influence outside of Pakistan.

The Americans worked with them in defeating the Soviets in Afghanistan. There's nothing new. There are elements in India who do the same thing with regard to other countries. East Pakistan for example. What's new is that the two countries cannot use force to deal with each other. It's the same as the US and Soviets. There's a limit to how much you can provoke the other.

What both countries are doing is that they are allowing groups to go and provoke the other side. Sometimes it's state sponsored and sometimes it's amateur. In this case I don't think the Pakistan leadership was involved at all. On the other hand the Pakistan leadership can't control its own country.

NDTV: There has not been any attack in the US after 9/11 or 7/7 in the UK. But India has seen a lot of terror attacks. Is it a case of India being taken for granted?

Stephen P Cohen: India is a bigger country. It's softer in some ways. It's also closer to where a lot of these people hang out. Afghanistan and Pakistan. But even India has allowed its territory to be used by elements which have destabilised its neighbours. It's not purely a Pakistan issue. I have just returned from Sri Lanka where there s a lot of talk of Indian Tamils being engaged in Sri Lanka supporting the Tigers. So no country is blameless.

States do have a responsibility to control their own territory. Right now Pakistan is unable of doing it. There may be elements of Pakistan state that are complicit also. We are not sure completely how far up in the ISI or the military this goes. But there is not military solution to this. Using military might feel good. It might hurt the other side. You can't stop these things.

The attack was designed among other things to provoke India-Pakistan bad relations. I thought it was designed to hurt the Zardari government. That was true of the attack on the Indian embassy in Kabul. Their target simply wasn't India but to show the world that Zardari had no control over what happened. Perhaps, over his own government.

So, you have to exercise deep restraint if you know that you are being provoked. You have to resist that provocation. On the other hand in India public opinion is outraged. And this was the second major international crisis after 9/11 in terms of people from 22 different countries being killed.

NDTV: India has come up with a tougher anti-terror law and a federal investigating agency like an FBI. Is that one positive step forward?

Stephen P Cohen: That's for the Indian government to decide. There's a danger in all these circumstances. Including what happened in the US. After 9/11 we began to lose some of our liberties. You do have to lose some of them to protect against terrorists. We take off our shoes, belts in airports. The terrorists have forced us to do that. We try to maintain our social and political freedom.

So, the Indians will have to be careful to balance freedom and liberties with the requirements of security. But clearly as we saw on television you did require much expertise. Indians were not prepared for this at all. The top three people went in and got killed right away. There was no coherent anti-terrorist operation when operating that way. So, clearly a lot of restructuring and reorganising has to take place.
http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/st ... 0080077237

[kshirin]

Someone mailed me this

Geopolitical Diary: India's Invisible War FootingDecember 19, 2008 | 0419 GMT

India on Thursday placed a key paramilitary organization, the Border Security Force (BSF), on high alert. Though there have been vague reports that Indian military forces have been on high alert since the Nov. 26 attacks in Mumbai, the BSF move is the closest we have come to seeing actual Indian preparations for war.
And frankly, it is not very close. The BSF, which currently has 45,000 personnel deployed along the 2,030-mile border with Pakistan and also guards the border with Bangladesh, would not be involved in any major combat operations with Pakistan; its mandate is to prevent infiltration, not to carry out attacks.
Indeed, more than three weeks after the Mumbai attacks, there has been nothing even remotely resembling the military buildup that occurred in the wake of the 2001 attack on the Indian parliament, when New Delhi deployed 750,000 troops in Kashmir within a week. Until now, we have seen New Delhi threaten to take action, and we have seen it join hands with the United States in pressuring Pakistan to take action against the various actors involved in the attacks, but there has been nothing measurable that could be convincingly described as preparation for a war.
Given this stark contrast between the two situations, conventional wisdom would suggest that the clouds of war that were hovering over South Asia might have passed. A recent flurry of statements from very senior Indian officials, saying that they are not planning an attack against Pakistan, might make the conventionally wise feel even more at ease.
Stratfor has learned, however, that Indian military operations against targets in Pakistan have in fact been prepared and await the signal to go forward. These most likely would take the form of unilateral precision strikes inside Pakistan-administered Kashmir, along with special forces action on the ground in Pakistan proper. Unlike the massive troop movements in 2002, these are not the type of operations for which preparations would be visible to the world at large. Sources have indicated to Stratfor that New Delhi is going through the diplomatic motions in order to give Pakistan the opportunity to take care of the militant problem itself —- but the Indians know that Islamabad has neither the will nor the capability to address their concerns.
From a strategic perspective, the Indian government can no more afford to accept the Mumbai attacks and move forward than the U.S. government could have afforded to ignore the 9/11 attacks. New Delhi has little choice but to respond -— regardless of which political party is in power -— and because the perpetrators are linked to elements within the Pakistani state, the response must be directed against Pakistan. And if Islamabad will not cooperate in controlling the militants, India will have to take unilateral action.
The Indians know that striking in Pakistan would not eliminate the Islamist threat —- but that would not be the aim of any such operation. Instead, India has to communicate firmly that it will no longer tolerate attacks from Pakistan-based militants —- whether they are rogue or approved by the state. Failure to do so risks emboldening the Islamists and their enablers, as well as a domestic political backlash. The Indian government could not live with either of those outcomes.
The Pakistanis, for their part, also are showing subtle signs that they see India as likely to act. Pakistani daily The News reported Thursday that former President Pervez Musharraf had been forced to leave the country after security forces unearthed an assassination plot against him. Reports like this do not simply appear in the Pakistani press; they are carefully leaked in efforts to shape perceptions and behavior. In this case, the Pakistani army’s central command is signaling to the Indians that the situation has spun so far out of its control that the safety of its own VIPs cannot be guaranteed.
The underlying message is that any Indian plans for striking Pakistan will further weaken the tenuous writ of the Pakistani state, exacerbating rather than neutralizing the militant threat to India. It is not a very strong argument, and certainly not one the Pakistanis would be making if they did not think an Indian military action was in the works —- but Islamabad does not have many options left.

[krishnan]

madamji warning pakistan , saying India's intent to have peace and friendship with neighbor counties should not be seen as a sign of weakness

[Dilbu]

madamji warning pakistan , saying India's intent to have peace and friendship with neighbor counties should not be seen as a sign of weakness

OMG! Major disaster for pukes. I am sure dozens of senior jihadis in ISI must have died of excessive rolling on the ground with laughter.

[ManishC]

^^^
There are forumites who take such verbal diahorrea from their esteemed leaders very seriously -
An innocent query onlee
Should this thread be renamed Indian Pseudo response to Terrrorism

[Chandragupta]

^^^
There are forumites who take such verbal diahorrea from their esteemed leaders very seriously -
An innocent query onlee
Should this thread be renamed Indian Pseudo response to Terrrorism

An innocent suggestion from my side too,

Should'nt this thread be closed already? Are'nt we wasting too much bandwidth for GoI's response to terrorists, like no cricket, no friendship, no candy & stuff?

We can continue the 'response thread' in Malegaon thread, because that's where the response is going to come and Mr.Antullah has started it already.

[akumar]

AntulayGate is far more sinister than it appears.

It has all the intent, purpose and markings of being the Godhra2008. The aim is to take the air out of current posturing, whatever that might be, and open up a diversionary front within.

Will it be safe to assume that sleeper cells at high places have been activated?

[Chandragupta]

Whoever thinks that Antulay could have done that all by himself, is wrong. Can you really believe that a Kaangress minister will speak of anything NOT APPROVED by the Rajmata? Big No.

Rajmata ordered this. She WANTED Antulay to say this, to make sure her muslim votes were going nowhere. That's why that rotten piece of shit called Antullah is still in power, if Rajmata & her pet Sardar Ji were serious about combating terror & pakistan then Antullah would have been kicked out of the cabinet by now, but no, now the votebank politics comes into play. If they throw Antullah away, then they piss off 'Indian' Muslims, and if they don't well, they are secular, which is exactly what they're trying to prove.

Antullah will stay. And all this is a ploy by Rajmata & Sardar Ji, to appease Muslims, yet again.

[sum]

AntulayGate is far more sinister than it appears.

It has all the intent, purpose and markings of being the Godhra2008. The aim is to take the air out of current posturing, whatever that might be, and open up a diversionary front within.

Will it be safe to assume that sleeper cells at high places have been activated?

Scary thought!!! Very plausible indeed...

[samuel.chandra]

They will pay for their defiance. UPA has maintained a tough line this whole week. And they know the pakis are not going to deliver... unless we discover a new muskrat who does a U-turn..so only thing that can be inferred here is that UPA has made up its mind. US has pretty much served the ultimatum and has made it very clear that it will not support the pakis this time around...the pakis are truly cornered this time around. I think GOI wants to do a true shock and awe... I hope it would just not be some punitive strikes in POK. I hope at least muridke is taken care of besides several targets withing pakistan proper...they should understand that we don't consider anything sacred. Most of all, this will set a benchmark for any future government.


http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/dec/21m ... sition.htm

Finally, US gets tough with Pakistan's 'shifty position'

December 21, 2008 17:20 IST


In a tough message to Pakistan, the United States has said that it is not satisfied with what Islamabad [Images] has done so far to eradicate terrorism from its soil after the Mumbai attack, which was not an ordinary event which can be "swept under the carpet."

The message was conveyed by top American officials to Pakistani National Security Adviser Mahmud Ali Durrani, who was summoned to Washington as the US government was "getting increasingly frustrated with what it views as Islamabad's shifty and shifting position on the Mumbai attacks and their aftermath," the Daily Times newspaper reported.

Durrani on Saturday concluded his unannounced three-day US visit during which he met Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice [Images], his American counterpart Stephen Hadley and Pentagon [Images] officials.

In a speech at the Council on Foreign Relations, Rice said on Wednesday that what Pakistan had done so far to catch those responsible for the Mumbai attacks was not enough.

She said her message to the Pakistani leadership was "...you need to deal with the terrorism problem. And it's not enough to say these are non-state actors. If they're operating from Pakistani territory, then they have to be dealt with."

A 'much stronger message' was conveyed by Rice during a meeting with Durrani, US and diplomatic sources were quoted as saying by the 'Dawn' newspaper.

The Pakistani team, which included Ambassador [Images] Hussain Haqqani, learnt from Rice and Hadley that the US is not satisfied with what Pakistan "had done so far for eradicating terrorism from its soil".

A senior diplomatic source said, "The curt message that Mr Durrani and the Pakistani team received from the Americans was: this is not 2002 and you cannot do what President (Pervez) Musharraf did after 9/11...In the past, you swept everything under the carpet while the problems were allowed to fester. No more."

The Pakistanis were told that the Mumbai attacks were no ordinary event and the tendency in Pakistan to deal with this as a minor incident was going to hurt it, the sources said.

The US officials "insisted that they had enough evidence to prove that Lashker-e-Tayiba and Jamaat-ud-Dawah were involved in the Mumbai attacks and they wanted concrete action against all such groups", they said.

"They told the Pakistanis to understand the gravity of the situation and the seriousness of the evidence that exists to
Pakistan's links to this event," said a source.

"The message the Americans gave was: This is the third time we are saying such a thing. We may not be able to bail you out the fourth time. Global terrorism is not just an India-Pakistan dispute. We see LeT and Jamaat-ud-Dawah at par with the Al Qaida. Pakistan should stop thinking of this as just another round of India-Pakistan altercations," the source said.

The Pakistani embassy in Washington kept Durrani's visit tightly under wraps and did not tell journalists about his arrival or the reason for his visit.

Contradictory statements on the Mumbai attacks from the top Pakistani leadership have cast doubts on Islamabad's "willingness, and even its ability, to take the follow-up action it has committed itself to," the Daily Times said.

Rice also told Durrani that Pakistan "needs to do better and while declarations of good intent are to be commended, they have to be translated through actions," it reported.

US officials were dismayed by such statements as the one that said Jaish-e-Mohammed chief Maulana Masood Azhar had left the country after it had been officially announced that he was under house arrest, it added.

Statements by premier Yousuf Raza Gilani [Images] and Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi that charitable institutions run by JuD would be allowed to keep functioning have cast further doubts on Pakistan's sincerity in taking necessary action, sources said.





http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=18732

Tuesday, December 02, 2008

By Amir Mir

LAHORE: There are fears in some official quarters that the Indian Air Force may attack Muridke headquarters of the Jamaat-ul-Dawah headed by chief of Lashkar-e-Taiba Hafiz Mohammad Saeed to avenge the Mumbai attacks.

According to well-informed circles in Rawalpindi, in a bid to reclaim their lost credibility in the public eyes, following their massive intelligence failure to pre-empt the recent Mumbai attacks, the Indian military and political leadership is holding deliberations over a possible aerial attack on Dawah headquarters in Muridke.

The Indian military establishment is trying to convince the decision-makers in the Congress government that an aerial attack on Muridke headquarters could be justified on the basis of the pattern of the ongoing drone attacks being carried out inside the Pakistani territory by Afghanistan-based US forces, which are targeting al-Qaeda and Taliban hideouts.

Pakistani sources say the Indian political leadership is being pursued by the military establishment to declare Muridke headquarters of the Jamaat-ul-Dawah as an enemy hideout [of the Lashkar-e-Taiba militants] before targeting it.

Established in 1988, the Dawah headquarters are called Markaz-e-Taiba (Holy centre), which is run by the Markaz Al-Dawah Wal Irshad (Centre for Religious Learning and Propagation). Spread over 200 acres of land the sprawling Dawah complex houses both teaching and residential facilities complete with its own farms, mosques, fish-breeding ponds and stables. Over 3,000 male and female students are presently enrolled at the Muridke complex, which are imparted Islamic as well as modern education from primary to university level.

The Muridke complex is also not just restricted to the Markaz Dawah Wal Irshad. Around the complex, the Dawah has bought land for supporters, who have built houses, shops and mosques and centres of Islamic learning. The complex has its own strict Islamic rules that ban music, television and smoking on its heavily guarded premises. Not even passing vehicles are allowed to play music which Prof Saeed believes is strictly forbidden in Islam.

Following the Mumbai attacks, the Indian authorities alleged that the Mumbai terror attacks were carried out by a group of 10 Lashkar-e-Taiba militants, who were picked for the suicide mission and ordered to ‘kill until your last breath and murder as many Hindus as you can’.

The Indians have further claimed that the captured gunman, Ajmal Amir, told his interrogators that the attackers had been trained in Muzaffarabad before heading to the nearby Mangla dam for lessons in marine commando techniques. Afterwards, they allegedly took a train to the port city of Karachi and boarded a freighter for their trip to Mumbai.

However, a Srinagar-based Taiba spokesman Dr Abdullah Ghaznavi has strongly refuted the LT’s involvement in the Mumbai attacks, saying it condemns such acts and has no link with those responsible.

Lashkar-e-Taiba was also blamed for terrorist attacks on the Indian parliament in 2001, when the two nuclear South Asian neighbours came to the brink of war. However, the Pakistani authorities say an Indian attack on any civilian building or military installation inside the Pakistani territory by the Indian Air Force would be treated as an act of war between the two countries and the Congress government should desist from resorting to any uncalled-for adventurism.

Approached for comments, Yahya Mujahid, a close aide of Hafiz Saeed and the spokesman for the Jamaat-ul-Dawah, said any aerial Indian attack on any of the Dawah-run religious seminaries across Pakistan would be treated as an assault on the sovereignty of Pakistan.

Refuting the Indian allegations that the Dawah headquarters was being used as a terrorist training centre, Yahya said: “All the Dawah centres in Pakistan either house religious seminaries or welfare centres and none of them is being used for any Jihadi activity. Even otherwise, no militant group in Pakistan could even think of setting up a military training centre at any such place. The Indian allegations of a Pakistani hand in the recent Mumbai attacks are meant to camouflage the internal fissures India is confronted with today. Therefore, the Indian military establishment deems it fit to blame Pakistan for anything that goes wrong in their country.”

While defending Lashkar-e-Taiba, the Jamaat0-ul-Dawah spokesman further said: “Linking LT with the Mumbai strikes was a crude attempt on the part of the Indian establishment to malign the ongoing freedom struggle in held Kashmir.”

After having gone all over town talking about not being fooled by Paki antics this time around unlike last time, do we have any option other than strikes since pak seems to be getting more defiant day by day?

[brihaspati]

Reports like this do not simply appear in the Pakistani press; they are carefully leaked in efforts to shape perceptions and behavior.

Well there Stratfor says it all! These guys do not seem to be very clever at what they profess to do! They are giving out the very tools of the trade! What makes it so unlikely that if the Pakistanis can do it, that Stratfor itself cannot do? That all that they are saying now, is to shape "perceptions and behaviour" of the Indians themselves?

Stratfor has learned, however, that Indian military operations against targets in Pakistan have in fact been prepared and await the signal to go forward. These most likely would take the form of unilateral precision strikes inside Pakistan-administered Kashmir, along with special forces action on the ground in Pakistan proper. Unlike the massive troop movements in 2002, these are not the type of operations for which preparations would be visible to the world at large.

What prevents, dear Stratfor, from you or the GOI leaking these info in order to shape "perceptions and behaviour"? the "type of operations for which preparations would [not] be visible to the world at large" are also exactly the type of operations which "need not actually" exist even in the planning stage - and simply "threatened" in a camoufluge gray state of complete deniability.

In this case, the Pakistani army’s central command is signaling to the Indians that the situation has spun so far out of its control that the safety of its own VIPs cannot be guaranteed.
The underlying message is that any Indian plans for striking Pakistan will further weaken the tenuous writ of the Pakistani state, exacerbating rather than neutralizing the militant threat to India. It is not a very strong argument, and certainly not one the Pakistanis would be making if they did not think an Indian military action was in the works —- but Islamabad does not have many options left.

Here Stratfor reveals all its concerns : It is shaking on behalf of its masters - it wants the Pakistani state to continue to exist, as the collapse of the TSP means (1) loss of direct foothold on the subcontinent (2) loss of leverage factors in pressurizing the Indians into the larger Asian strategic objectives of the USA as India is likely to turn inwards once it frees itself from the TSP threat (3) the military alliances and contacts between the TSP military and the US and other EU military establishments that have stake in the Indian Ocean feel threatened - raising fears of potential loss of trade in arms and expertise - and the loss of the TSP military machine to the Indians will definitely take out a lot of money from the business.

The nervousness of Stratfor at least indicates two things : (1) there are certain sections within the GOI and possibly the intermediate "gray zone" between the Indian army and the GOI which are concerned at the thrust of "patriotism" among the Indian military as indicated by the backlash to trying to implicate the army in favour of "Hindutva" through the Malegaon blasts - and these are the sections crying out to the "West" to help out (2) the "West" and especially its "military trade" is concerned about the loss of the TSP trade - the TSP is a good base for ex-servicemen to ply their lucrative trade in conjunction with the secret services of their respective nations under cover of complete deniability in the whole Indian Ocean rim - the TSP coastline is good starting point for reaching out to Sri Lanka, to Somalia, into having a merry party or two with the Mujahideen (supplying both sides in a war is a very old good business line of EU ) and so on. These are the types most likely to have a finger in Stratfor.

Should we fall for this, BRfites?

[cholaraja]

Hey guys.This is my first post on this forum.I just wrote an article.Please review it and give your comments

India's incomplete Nuclear Doctrine

Recently after Mumbai terrorist attacks which took a huge toll on the precious human life in india,people have been rightfully clamoring for action.However according to me before taking any action against terrorists and their sponsors in Pakistan we should ask whether our nuclear doctrine is complete and if not so then what should be done to modify it.

The current nuclear doctrine states if any country attacks India with the weapons of mass destruction(i.e nuclear,biological and chemical weapons) then India will also attack that country with full force of its nuclear arsenal.So far so good.But is it enough.

I am going to tell you a story so that you may understand the issue in a better way and explain it to the other indians.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So here it comes.Once upon a time there was a car racing competition(akin to formula 1 or Nascar).It was also asia specific something like asian championship.There were lot of drivers from all over asia competing for this championship.However the favorites to win the race were two drivers by the name of Hari and Huang.Now Hari was a simple fellow with no ill feeling towards his fellow competitors including Huang.Infact he had a healthy respect for them.Make no mistake he wanted to win but not by hurting others.

However Huang was a altogether a different person.Extremely cunning and manipulative he was intensely jealous of Hari.As Hari was kind and generous other drivers used to trust him more.Huang decided that in order to win the race he has to kill Hari as Hari was also a more solid driver.But he did not have the courage to attack Hari directly as Hari was also very strong.

But Huang being of a very evil disposition he came upon a very ingenious plan to finish off Hari for once and for all.He contacted a street thug by the name of Humza to kill Hari.Now Humza didn't have that capability to attack Hari on his own.In fact last time he tried to take on Hari he was beaten very badly.He managed to survive only because Hari had forgiven him. So Huang supplied him with weapons and training.Huang calculated that both Hari and Humza would kill each other,thereby clearing his path towards Championship crown.

Humza also had rich cousins in middle east by the name of Hussein and Hassan who kept him supplied with money and other logistics to do the job.Humza also had previous beef with Hari.He was all too eager to brawl with Hari once more to avenge his previous humiliation.As he was not very intelligent (result of being indoctrinated throughout the childhood in a madarsa) he was unable to realize that Huang was manipulating him.

On the day before race was supposed to start Huang finally set the plan in motion.Humza attacked Hari and shot him.

From here there are two endings.

Ending 1 : Since Hari was not prepared well for the ambush he was barely able to retaliate.Somehow he managed to shoot Humza killing him although he was himself severely wounded in the process.As a result he was paralyzed and Huang went on to win the championship.

Verdict on Ending 1 : Justice was not done as Huang managed to get away scot free as did Hussein and Hassan.Humza was killed but it is not enough.The real conspirators are still enjoying their lives.Secondly the incident shows that Hari was not prepared well even after knowing that enemies were after him.This could have been avoided.

Ending 2 : Hari was anticipating this action on the part of Humza and had prepared himself well.He was travelling in an armored car and wearing body armor.He also had lot of ammunition himself.As soon as Humza started shooting he retaliated as well.In the ensuing shootout Humza was killed outright.Autopsy reports showed that Humza had suffered over Three Hundred bullet wounds.Hari also suffered some injuries but he managed to survive.Then he went to Huang's house and shot him many times.He did not spare Hussein and Hassan either.They were sent packing to hell in the quickest way possible.As for Hari no one knows what happened of him whether he managed to live or died as a result of the shootouts.But even if he died one thing is clear.He lived with Honor and he died with Honor.

Verdict on Ending 2 : Justice was served to all the conspirators and enemies of Hari.They got what they deserved.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The current nuclear doctrine will lead to ending 1 which is inherently unjust.We all know which countries supplied Pakistan with knowhow and resources for developing nuclear weapons.We also know that they did this to destroy India.

If we attack Pakistan only in retaliation these countries would have achieved their objectives.Surely we cannot allow it.

My suggestion is lets modify our nuclear doctrine to enable justice.We should attack Pakistan as well as those countries which helped it in its pursuit of nuclear weapons(no need to name them).Let Huang die as well.

Strength,Pride and Honor

totally agree no first use is useless and should be abandoned to send shivers through jihadis, otherwise India will be doomed. the weopon in their posession is what they think enables them to blackmail India with such terror. I guess the detailled debate belongs in the nuclear thread...

[Chandragupta]

Hey guys.This is my first post on this forum.I just wrote an article.Please review it and give your comments

India's incomplete Nuclear Doctrine

Recently after Mumbai terrorist attacks which took a huge toll on the precious human life in india,people have been rightfully clamoring for action.However according to me before taking any action against terrorists and their sponsors in Pakistan we should ask whether our nuclear doctrine is complete and if not so then what should be done to modify it.
...............................
.............................

Strength,Pride and Honor

totally agree no first use is useless and should be abandoned to send shivers through jihadis, otherwise India will be doomed. the weopon in their posession is what they think enables them to blackmail India with such terror. I guess the detailled debate belongs in the nuclear thread...

Do you really think that the Indian Army will wait for Pakistan to nuke us first in a full blown war? Policies like these are just that policies, they will be scrapped the moment India plunges into war. If an India-Pakistan war takes place, I bet my right arm that India will nuke those pigs back to stone age before they can even think of doing the same to India. The IA is not foolish, in an event of war & emergency, this Rajmata & our Sardar Ji will not do anything, they will be locked in a bunker, thats it. The people pulling the strings would then be our Generals, and they are not foolish & they don't have votebanks to cater to. They will nuke Porkistan & extract revenge of a thousand years in a moment of bright fury & destruction.

[samuel.chandra]

I think its clear without some substantial concessions from TSP, UPA cannot back down now... don't think TSP can deliver though. With the US also giving the ultimatum, TSP is feeling the heat.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Worl ... 870461.cms

India capable of giving befitting reply to terror sponsors: Sonia
21 Dec 2008, 1857 hrs IST, PTI

R S PURA: Warning Pakistan against taking India's "wish for peace" as a weakness, Congress chief Sonia Gandhi on Sunday said the country was
capable of giving a "befitting reply" to those using their soil for abetting and promoting terrorism against it. ( Watch )

"Our wish for peace and friendship should not be taken as a sign of weakness," Gandhi told an election rally near Indo-Pak border belt and voiced disappointment over Pakistan's failure to reciprocate India's efforts for better ties.

"While we have tried to build friendly relations with the neighbouring country, I want to make it clear that we are capable of giving a befitting reply to those who are using their soil for promotion and abetment of terrorism against our country," the UPA chairperson said in R S Pura Assembly constituency.

India wanted peaceful and friendly relations with our neighbouring country in the same way it wants peace and tranquility within the country, she said.

"We have tried to build friendly relations but it is a matter of regret that they have not understood our feelings," said Gandhi, who arrived in a chopper to address a rally in Dablehr area barely 3-kms away from international border.

The last round of the seven-stage elections in Jammu and Kashmir will be held on December 24.



http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Pak_ ... 870497.cms

Pak to India: Don't speculate before Mumbai probe outcome
21 Dec 2008, 1912 hrs IST, PTI

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan on Sunday said that it will be "irresponsible" to speculate on the Mumbai attacks before the results of the probe come out
and asked India to work with it to defuse tension in the region.

"Both countries (India and Pakistan) need to work to defuse tension in the region, and it will be irresponsible to comment or speculate on the Mumbai attacks before the results of the investigation are presented," foreign minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi said on Sunday.

He said Pakistan will act according to its own laws while probing the Mumbai terror attacks though it is ready to cooperate with India to investigate the incident.

Pakistan is conducting its own investigation into the incident and is still waiting for India to provide evidence about the attacks, Qureshi told reporters in his hometown of Multan.

The country has to operate according to its own laws and has also offered to cooperate with India in an investigation, he said.

He rejected the contention that Pakistan is isolated in the world community and said the country cannot afford such isolation.

[brihaspati]

Do you really think that the Indian Army will wait for Pakistan to nuke us first in a full blown war? Policies like these are just that policies, they will be scrapped the moment India plunges into war. If an India-Pakistan war takes place, I bet my right arm that India will nuke those pigs back to stone age before they can even think of doing the same to India. The IA is not foolish, in an event of war & emergency, this Rajmata & our Sardar Ji will not do anything, they will be locked in a bunker, thats it. The people pulling the strings would then be our Generals, and they are not foolish & they don't have votebanks to cater to. They will nuke Porkistan & extract revenge of a thousand years in a moment of bright fury & destruction.

I am not sure we are expecting a lot from the army command in our fervent wish to see the leadership and determination we miss in the current existing crop of politicians. The Indian army started out with one great disadvantage - it was nurtured under a British colonial doctrine that justified its opportunism in selecting the major army components based on ethnicity - practically those groups who happened to help them during the 1857 war. This gives a rather uneasy picture of clan/family loyalty to opportunity rather than patriotism. The British imperialists maintained this throughout, and we can see the effects in the treatment of the INA soldiers, or the treatment of the naval mutineers of 1948 - who surrendered on the deceptive promise and requests of the Indian political leadership. This was a command structure carefully and deliberately built up to remain loyal to individual political families in power - and we know the fallouts of such "family influenced" choices during the reign of Nehru I in the first Indo-China war [the Kaul episode]. This structure of tenuous control by a "particular family" over the army higher echelons is coming to a shaky phase - out of two processes - (1) the British coordinated and nurtured development of upper echelons of civil and military hierarchy through a complex process of education, psychological manipulation and invented separation/alienation/disidentification from the "commoners" is weakening as the newer post-colonial generations are educated in increasingly free-from-post-colonial hangover in the institutions and finding their way into the lower ranks of the forces, and the military traditional aristocracy is getting winded down (2) the weakening of the "personal hold" over Indian politics in two major shocks of 1977 and the BJP interlude which has made the traditional "officer class" aware of the possibilities of alternate paths upwards rather than relying purely on loyalty to a particular family - and the realization that in the future the scenario of "personal influence" based track could become altogether unavailable.

Just as Indian politics, the Indian army is in a transition period too, although just like the politicians the army command may not actually be aware of this. All over the subcontinent, the newer generations of army recruits show the social processes going on for decades - where the "mass will" gradually trickles in and finds its way into the army - after the removal of the colonial imperial authorities whose regime depended on exactly the prevention of such trickling in of popular will. This is reflected in the increasing Jihadization of the Pakistani army and the increasing Islamic orthodoxy in BD - there is no reason why the Indian army will be free of this trend too in reflecting more an dmore of the majority trend in Indian society.

But this trend is not yet so strong or has been in play for such a long time that the upper command will be swayed completely by it. The greatest difficulty of the Indian army has been the weak political will of the reigning political leadership which makes it vacillating on strategic questions and leads to complete lack of calrity on concrete strategic issues - for example, as relevant for the case under discussion, what to do with the TSP ? after bombing it to smithereens, what should the Indian gov and the army do with the place, the people, and the consequences? should they incorporate it into a province of India? should they allow it to be a newly designed republic? should they incorporate part and leave the other bits to the "dogs"? what to do with the surviving military machine and political class? should democracy be restored or replaced on a "wait and see basis" by military rule or authoritarian givernance until the population is deemed ready for "democracy"? what to do with the captured ? go for a Nuremberg style trial or not? what to do with the Ulema at the heart of this pain and blood? what to do with the Islamic theology that reigns through the madrassahs and permeates the society? lots and lots of questions on which the current crop of politicians have no clue at all - this handicaps the Indian army - and makes its strategic objectives necessarily confused and therefore self-defeating.

What many BRfites are hoping for, comes froma clear political will and vision about what to do with the inseparable twin questions of the state of Pakistan and the Islamic Jihadi ideology - and the Indian army should not be burdened with this expectation at the current state - they have not been prepared and nurtured to do this. They have a much a greater role to play and much greater rewards to receive - but in the future, when the polutics is ready.

[ramana]

I think Antulay should be appreciated for his efforts. He provides a good pointer already discussed I think before here. Some time ago I speculated exactly about the possible reasons behind the concentration of the "top" ATS intelligence operatives who appeared to have carried a lot of "recent intelligence" about the Malegaon investigations - all moving in together in a direction where they are eliminated quickly by the Islamic terrorists. Yes, Mr. Antulay what about investigating the possibility that the same forces that probably engineered the Malegaon investigations by "planting" evidence to implicate the "Hindutva" forces and divert political as well as security attention away from Islamic Jihad (double agents, Mr. Antulay?) integrated the manipulation of the ATS with the planned "attack" on Mumbai such that the main officers who could later face pressure and therefore reveal any political "orders" to implicate "Hindutva" - were eliminated after the maximum political mileage to be gained from the Malegaon blasts were extracted - dead men do not talk, eh!

One of the ATS constables who was shot by Kasab and Ismail Khan (By the way what kind of name is that? It looks like taken from Dera Ismail Khan and is pseudonym) Mr Jadhav, has already stated that another ATS squad officer MR Date was shot by terrorists and was at Cama Hospital. The ATS chiefs decided to visit him in the hospital to get Date's assessment of the situation as he was one of them and had seen the terrorists. So we do have independent confirmation of what motivated the ATS chiefs to go to the Cama Hospital.

To me the question is how and why did the terrorist duo get down from the Cama hopsital roof and ambush the ATS vehicle? Was it happenstance or was it delibrate? If latter, it could be their controllers monitoring TV and directing the duo to get off the roof and then the ambush happened?

Antulay is Antulolo. Dont know which interests he is serving but not Indian interests. For he is sowing dissension in Mumbai Police and making them weak. Now they (Mumbai Police) dont know if they should respond to calls to investigate shootings or fear for their lives. As Ghafoor most likely did by being incommunicado that night.

[vsudhir]

Karkare was targetted due to an old feud with the D-company

[akumar]

Token strikes, if any, are going to be just that. It will hit a few camps and perhaps kill a few rats. But for the pakjab they were expandable anyways.

For a truly punishing lesson UPA has to grow sufficient balls and walk the whole yard and at least hit the following

Murdke – First targeting. Natural choice along with the camps. These will be empty by now.
GHQ – Preferably with kayani inside
POF – The explosives for Mumbai murders came from these guys
Binoria – Sister act of Muridke
Mangla fauji establishment – the navel training place
Karachi docs. – For launching the terrorists.

Obviously purely fauji locations will need to be targeted in the first wave along with the above

And while we are it a lob a few “stray” bums at Clifton and RWP-ISB belt to complete the effect.

A token strike will be futile and create more problems.

Do we miss Indira Gandhy ?

[brihaspati]

The terrorists either knew or were guided to the place where the wounded serviceman would be taken, and then someone also keeping watch on the "Officers" directed them to liquidate "unwanted people". I find it unpardonable that more than one key "commander" were allowed to be simultaneously in a "hostile" situation - this is not standard military practice - and it is avoided exactly to minimize the loss of large chunks of key command in an instant. It looks more like a planned coordinated operation which also targeted elimination of potentially uncomfortable revelations - a move exactly from those who managed the entire plan of the Mumbai attacks, and the diversionary steps taken in a buildup to the attacks to shelter the actual Jihadi character of the whole episode until the very last moment when the propaganda objective of the operation - the Jihadi message was delivered.

[Chinmayanand]

Do you really think that the Indian Army will wait for Pakistan to nuke us first in a full blown war? Policies like these are just that policies, they will be scrapped the moment India plunges into war. If an India-Pakistan war takes place, I bet my right arm that India will nuke those pigs back to stone age before they can even think of doing the same to India. The IA is not foolish, in an event of war & emergency, this Rajmata & our Sardar Ji will not do anything, they will be locked in a bunker, thats it. The people pulling the strings would then be our Generals, and they are not foolish & they don't have votebanks to cater to. They will nuke Porkistan & extract revenge of a thousand years in a moment of bright fury & destruction.

I second that...

[Chinmayanand]

We should not make too much of karkare's death.I for one, have no sympathy for those who are maligning the Hindutva brigade.The pigs did not run to karkare's house/office to execute him, karkare and his team got in the pigs way and so run over.Let's not forget that karkare is not the only one who was shot.There were policemen , NSG commandos too who lost their lives.Karkare got what he deserved .The secular brigade has already harassed the Sadhvi enough while saving the piggy afzal guru.We need to go on the offensive against the pseudo seculars and Karkare was just one of them.

[AdityaM]

madamji warning pakistan , saying India's intent to have peace and friendship with neighbor counties should not be seen as a sign of weakness

Why is it that she appears daily on TV saying "...Haamre kamzori na smjha jayee......clap clap clap"