Indian Response to Terrorism

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 25 Dec 2008 03:46

milindc

i read that "now" and so i said that.

i dont buy all this gameplan, pak hidden hand business should deter us. if it is just speculation, ok, even if its not, india must stand up otherwise by that understanding everytime pak attack india via bomb blast or next attack india cannot retaliate because pak had game plan.

basically pakistan has got used to idea that india will do nothing so it will keep provoking. everything here suggest that pak air force is sh*tscared and pak army is least bother because they will not be hit hard and who cares about pak AF when they will make token symbolic strike to make pak fools raise chest in pride.

but it is important that a line is drawn now to avenge mumbai. otherwise next attack will come and present incompetent govt will get idea that nothing should be done.

right now there is combination of public anger, international support, political reason (election) to take action. this chance will not come again.

indian leadership has no record of making pakistan pay for any adventure over time forget fancy theories of taking revenge at our own pace. all that will not happen.

best to make even symbolic but hurtful strike now and at least make pak understand india will hit pak. and then wait for next 1-2 years before pak start this cycle again. otherwise we indians are like weak people screaming all the time about optimum time, when we will teach pak a lesson. nothing will happen.

yes pak has gameplan to divert troop away from FATA. so who care. hit them.
one way or other it is US job to put pressure on pak to retuen troop to FATA not our job.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 25 Dec 2008 04:23

Pak deploys forces in Rajasthan

An ADG rank official of BSF has confirmed the heavy movement of forces in Sir Creek area. Heightened tension between the two countries is apparent along the western front as the Centre has alerted Rajasthan about the possibility of evicting villages.

Heh heh, Porkis are sh1tting brix even w/o an Op Parakram style mobilization... Like has been speculated on BRF before, selective elusive air and ground intrusions should keep the porkis sh1tting ever larger stones besides revealing their radar positions and location of other assets. Also, hopefully our (and israeli) satellite intell is carefully looking for any signs of movement of the all-important porki nuke bums.

Game-plan etc is fine as long as we demonstratively make the porkis pay the price for murdering our civilians. And make sure the message goes through to the general public of both countries. Don't necessarily rush in a hurry, keep the pressure on, keep them guessing and sweating and sh1tting, but don't let them get away with this!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Dec 2008 04:49

vsudhir wrote:Pak deploys forces in Rajasthan

An ADG rank official of BSF has confirmed the heavy movement of forces in Sir Creek area. Heightened tension between the two countries is apparent along the western front as the Centre has alerted Rajasthan about the possibility of evicting villages.
Heh heh, Porkis are sh1tting brix even w/o an Op Parakram style mobilization... Like has been speculated on BRF before, selective elusive air and ground intrusions should keep the porkis sh1tting ever larger stones besides revealing their radar positions and location of other assets. Also, hopefully our (and israeli) satellite intell is carefully looking for any signs of movement of the all-important porki nuke bums.

Game-plan etc is fine as long as we demonstratively make the porkis pay the price for murdering our civilians. And make sure the message goes through to the general public of both countries. Don't necessarily rush in a hurry, keep the pressure on, keep them guessing and sweating and sh1tting, but don't let them get away with this!

IAF conducts precision bombing practice runs

Forward deployment of Pak Air Force planes detected

Don't need IA:

"The BSF is on full alert," said UK Bansal, Additional Director General, BSF, Barmer.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 25 Dec 2008 05:00

PM convened meet of Nuclear Command Authority (NCA) on Saturday

The top-level security meeting held by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh last Saturday was actually a meeting of Nuclear Command Authority (NCA). The meeting, kept under wraps so as not to fuel the current war hysteria between India and Pakistan, coincided with the first strong sign of Islamabad backtracking on its promise to crack down on the masterminds of 26/11.

Sources, however, denied the NCA meeting on December 20 had anything to do with the current stand-off with Pakistan in wake of the Mumbai terror strikes. They, in fact, stressed the meeting's "only intention'' was "to take decisions on the further consolidation of India's nuclear deterrence''.

Heh, heh. Sure, NCA meet was totally unconnected with porki games west of the border. I do hope they took adequate note of moves by the dlagon north of the border though.....

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 25 Dec 2008 05:06

Its good to see Pak moving men & material assets to the front line. Strategically and logistically it is difficult for them to launch an offensive and they are preparing a defensive posture. A swift strike of Brahmos, Prithvi and Agni-I will easily take care of the CCC and the troops can be hit with energetic neutrons to liquidate them and pesky terrorist civilians.

Eshwar · Post by **Eshwar** » 25 Dec 2008 05:07

Is it a good time to renounce the NFU policy?

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 25 Dec 2008 05:45

Its good to see Pak moving men & material assets to the front line. Strategically and logistically it is difficult for them to launch an offensive and they are preparing a defensive posture.

They are running as far away from the US Predators and Wana Wimmen's Flying Frying Pans as they can.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 25 Dec 2008 06:08

Diyar adminullahs,

The glorious pakistani army is going to run to the eastern border regardless of what indian fauj does or does not do. Is there an appropriate place to discuss what will happen once they redeploy as one of the senior adminullah has already conjectured?

thanku kindlee.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 25 Dec 2008 06:16

I also wonder what happens when the Ghorious Fauj has completely escaped across the Indus and RYK rail line to the east, and the bridges to Pakhtoonistan and rail track south and west from RYK are taken out...

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 25 Dec 2008 06:28

jnu continues to be pride of india

http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... th/402497/
Diplomatic breakdown notwithstanding, Pakistani artists perform at JNU

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Dec 2008 06:42

5 hours ago:

India, Pakistan: Signs of a Coming War

December 24, 2008 | 2002 GMT

Several major signs of a coming Indian-Pakistani war surfaced Dec. 24.

Indian troops reportedly have deployed to the Barmer district of southwest Rajasthan state along the Indian-Pakistani border. Furthermore, the state government of Rajasthan has ordered residents of its border villages to be prepared for relocation. The decision reportedly came after a meeting among the state’s director-general of police, home secretary and an official from the central government. Stratfor confirmed the report with an Indian army officer.

According to India’s ZeeNews, the Pakistani army replaced the Pakistan Rangers that regularly patrol the border with India. The Pakistani troop movements were later confirmed by U.K. Bansal, the additional director-general of India’s Border Security Force (BSF) in Barmer, Rajasthan.

As Stratfor reported Dec. 22, there is a high probability of India using military force against Pakistan after Dec. 26, when a deadline expires for Pakistan to deliver on Indian demands to crack down on Islamist militant proxies that threaten India. With low expectations that Pakistan has the will or capability to deliver on these demands, India has spent the past month preparing for military action against Pakistan. Pressure is now ratcheting up on both sides of the border, with Indian Air Marshal P.K. Barbora, air officer commanding-in-chief of the Western Air Command, telling reporters Dec. 24 that as many as 5,000 targets in Pakistan have thus far been identified, while saying that many of the militants hiding out in camps in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir have already fled.

It should be noted that the area of Rajasthan where Indian troops are deploying and where villagers are preparing to evacuate is a long distance from Kashmir, where conflict between India and Pakistan typically takes place. Barmer district is adjacent to Jaisalmer district, where India’s Southwestern Air Command is located. Any attacks based out of the Barmer district would involve mechanized and armored forces that could threaten the core Karachi-Hyderabad-Islamabad corridor — Pakistan’s only transit corridor that links the Pakistani heartland of Punjab with the coast. Given that cash-strapped Pakistan is a net food and energy importer and is already flirting with bankruptcy, India has a military opportunity at hand to cut off Pakistan’s economic lifeline. Furthermore, a potential cutoff would likely complicate the flow of fuel and supplies to U.S. and NATO forces in Afghanistan.

Any ground troop movement in southwestern Rajasthan is likely to be accompanied by air strikes against militant targets outside of Kashmir and possibly against intelligence facilities in Pakistan’s urban areas.

The timing of Indian military action is still unclear, as it will take some time for India to mobilize its forces and evacuate locals along the border area. But given these recent troop movements, it could be a matter of days before the world witnesses another Indian-Pakistani war.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 25 Dec 2008 06:50

This is one of the great migrations of pork.

many of the militants hiding out in camps in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir have already fled.

So the "mujaheddin" are running East to West to hide, and the Pakistan Army is running West to East to avoid them and the Predators. Obviously the safest place in Pakistan is the Indian frontier, since the airstrikes will be in downtown Pindi and Islamagood.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 25 Dec 2008 06:52

Shreeman wrote:Diyar adminullahs,
The glorious pakistani army is going to run to the eastern border regardless of what indian fauj does or does not do. Is there an appropriate place to discuss what will happen once they redeploy as one of the senior adminullah has already conjectured?
thanku kindlee.

If Paki army runs to border, desh will build up. This is irrespective of whether we want a war or not. I feel that powerful forces in Pakiland want a war. Please bear with me.

It all started in the waning days of Musharraf. Unkil realized his game and a flurry of article appeared in press "we gave them so much money, they ate the money". Remember that these were anti-mushy articles and not anti-paki articles. Those articles have since stopped appearing. Motorma, senses Unkil's frustration with Mushy, makes a deal. Make Motorma the PM, Motorma guarantees complete servitude of paki army and complete access to Unkil in trouble areas. As quid-pro-quo unkil drops support for Mushy, tells him to accomodate motorma and lets her fight elections. The mullah military alliance by now is fed up with Mushy (for dragging them into a pointless war in western badlands instead of their usual escapades in 'pindi), wont tolerate motorma (cant stomach being a secondary power center). Gifts a sunroof lever to motorma (India expects pakis to act on Mumbai suspects. Bah ! Motorma's assas-e-nation suspects are not known yet, inspite of motorma having a bunch of supporters inside pakistan. Go figure. But thats a digression).

Tenpercenti is hand in glove with the mullah-military alliance (stockholm syndrome after so much jailing ?). Strangely, the army lets tenpercenti become President. Any rakshaks who thinks that tenpercenti became president without quid-pro-quo or without army support is an idiot. Notice how he (a) replaced one of their (army's) own (b) a street fighter like mushy went silently without meddling with tenpercenti through his army loyalists (anybody who thinks mushy did not build up *personal* loyalty among army top brass and ISI is an idiot. Also notice assphuck's purges to weaken mushy) (c) did not pursue pinky's assas-e-nation (d) did not pursue his jailers in ISI.

Badmash realizes that he has been tricked by zardari and pro-establishment faction and goes sulks in a corner. Even makes statements supporting India and the suspects in faridkot signifying that he is ready for business and to negotiate if outside powers wish to (become a motorma replacement) But that is a digression.

The last step is to stop fighting in the west and institutionalize the role of the army in governance. This cannot be done without a crisis or without stopping army operation against talibunnies. Enter Mumbai operation. India's response would have been predictable. We did it once before during parakram, would do it once again because elections are due in May. But by now there are 10 unkil's listening bugs in every ISI goon's musharraf. Hence the Mumbai operation by a "different security agency" (Likely the pakistan navy).

Now desh is strangely silent. It is pakistanis who are upping the ante, first by flying CAP on their own cities and now by moving army to the borders. Go figure.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Dec 2008 06:58

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pakistan & Afghanistan - Beginning of 2009

Asia Times
12/24/2008
By Syed Saleem Shahzad
[Printer Friendly Version]

KARACHI - Two major events are likely to mark the beginning of 2009 and decide the new rules of war and peace in the region. In Pakistan, (first) the foremost is curtailing the powerful military dominated intelligence agency, the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), and the second is the unveiling of a new strategy in Afghanistan.

These two steps have emerged after months of high-level consultations between all the regional players, including the Afghan, Pakistani and Indian political leadership and the Western military establishment. American military officials have gone the extra mile to set up an incentive package to make these plans successful.

The process of clipping the wings of the ISI, elements of which have sympathies with the Taliban in Afghanistan and militants, could not take place during the rule of former president General Pervez Musharraf, who was succeeded by a civilian government early in the year after nine years of rule.

Moves were made to place the ISI under the civilian authority of the Ministry of Interior, but these were blocked by the military. Still, a few weeks ago the ISI's political cell was shut down, a development announced by Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gillani.

The next move is to appoint a civilian as director general of the ISI with the aim of eventually reducing the agency to an intelligence wing of the Ministry of Interior, from the grand secret service it was that earned international fame during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the 1980s in support of the mujahideen resistance.

The plan has been agreed to by the military leadership, which earlier showed its concern on the question of the handling the external security issues if the ISI worked under the Ministry of Interior. Apparently, the brass were convinced by senior US officials who had a long list of complaints against the ISI for its lack of cooperation in the "war on terror".

The director general of the ISI and top officials, including the chief of the external wing and the chief of the internal security wing, were fired in September on the US's recommendation, but still there was the feeling in Western capitals that the ISI's structure was too complex for it to be "reformed" by the sacking of a few senior officials.

The Mumbai attack on November 26, in which militants linked to Pakistan killed nearly 200 people, further fueled the debate. Eventually, a middle-road approach was adopted by the West in which direct confrontation with the Pakistan army, the main patron of the ISI, was avoided due to its deep links in Afghanistan. As a sweetener, the military was offered better military hardware and help with Pakistan's sinking economy.

Recently, the International Monetary Fund approved a 23-month US$7.6 billion bailout program for Pakistan. "American military officials played a crucial role in this approval," commented the executive director of the Center for Research and Security Studies (CRSS), Dr Farrukh Saleem, to Asia Times Online. "The purpose is to keep pace with Pakistan and its armed forces to ensure maximum cooperation in the 'war on terror'," he added.

An exclusive group called the 909 Intelligence Group has been formed which is working directly under the military command to look exclusively at issues of cross-border intelligence. The group has already taken over the ISI's external operations.

The US was spurred into action by the Mumbai attack to get Pakistan to deal with military sponsored militias and the ISI; the last thing it wanted was a war between Pakistan and India that would derail its plans for a surge next year in Afghanistan against the Taliban.

At one stage the war appeared so unavoidable that the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) piled up additional supplies in Afghanistan due to fears of an interruption to its supply lines in the event of an Indian naval blockage of the Arabian Sea. The Indian government gave a 30-day deadline for Pakistan to take action against those responsible for the Mumbai attack or else "all options would be open".

According to strategic sources who spoke to Asia Times Online, India activated three military bases - Rajasthan, Gujarat and Ladakh - but due to extraordinary American intervention and Pakistan's increased cooperation, such as over the ISI, the clouds of war cleared.

Nevertheless, India and the Americans understand that Pakistan's cooperation can only go to a certain level as militants still call the shots in many places, especially in the tribal areas on the border with Afghanistan. Thus Pakistan is being given a little leeway over organizations such as the Jamaatut Dawa, which has been named by the United Nations as a front for a terror organization linked to the Mumbai attack. Jamaatut, which is involved in extensive charity work, will be allowed to continue even though it is officially outlawed.

With all-out war between India and Pakistan now highly unlikely, there is still the possibility of limited surgical strikes by Israeli Predator drones from Indian soil against militant camps in Pakistan-administered Kashmir. Israel is present in India due to the killing of some of its citizens in the Mumbai attack and is helping with investigations.

Meanwhile, NATO is looking to protect its supply lines and might have found assistance from Iran, which would reduce its dependence on Pakistan, where supply lines have come under heavy attack.

Non-military supplies, including food and oil, could go from the Iranian port of Chabahar overland to Afghanistan, where a new road in the west of the country has been completed despite an unprecedented number of attacks by the Taliban.

The main challenge, however, is to clear the ring roads up to the capital Kabul, which are at present controlled by the Taliban. This will be crucial in deciding which way the Afghan war theater goes when Pakistani jihadi militias and the Pakistani Taliban are unleashed.

Syed Saleem Shahzad is Asia Times Online's Pakistan Bureau Chief.

shynee · Post by **shynee** » 25 Dec 2008 07:00

The Newshour Debate 'Pak reaction within minutes' Part 4

Ananth · Post by **Ananth** » 25 Dec 2008 07:04

Eshwar wrote:Is it a good time to renounce the NFU policy?

There is a reason for NFU. It provides a buffer against mistakes. If NFU is converted to FU, decision makers wont have space to explore other options.

Further all this talk of war is coming from TSP. They are racheting it up. I am fine with current government 's move to de-escalate and call TSP's bluff. One shouldn't mention the target of surgical strikes, especially when they are semi-permanent out in public. TSP will simply dismantle it and lie low. As Rangudu said, the place, time, format of response should be at India's choosing. If the policy of provocation were indeed to be used, the goal should be to shake them a little bit for any missing info.

Regarding the TSP threat of nuke blackmail, the loose talk by their ministers to use nukes to protect jihadis have consecrated jihadis as official organ. They can no longer be consiered as "stateless". The original fear was what if jihadis get their hands on the nuke button. Well they might not have their hands on it but they are directly protected by it. I don't see any difference between the two scenarios. GoI needs to recalibrate its deterrent strategy with this thing now publicly acknowleged by TSP.

The incoherence in "public" response from India suggests an handicap in the establishment on how to deal with jihadi attacks. What they do privately is for anyone's guess, but public campaign has resulted in a toothless UNSC resolution. The amount of energy that is being expended in rhetoric in India should be focussed on exploring alternative options.

shynee · Post by **shynee** » 25 Dec 2008 07:42

Options

By SALMAN HAIDAR

As the crisis draws on, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has tried to put at rest the rumours of war. He has pointed out that India is calling for the perpetrators of terror to be put away by Pakistan and their bases destroyed. War is not the instrument to achieve this goal. But at the same time, Pakistan is not seen to be doing enough; India's Foreign Minister has firmly asked it to meet its responsibilities. Separately, acting on their own, high US authorities have conveyed the same message to Islamabad. However, after what seemed a mildly encouraging start when President Zardari was ready to have his intelligence chief visit India, there has been a rapid backtracking by Pakistan.

Let alone holding back its cooperation, Islamabad has questioned the evidence, cast doubt on the nationality of the terrorists, and tried to treat the issue in the familiar fashion of an India vs. Pakistan dispute. India has refused to be drawn into bilateral slanging that would feed such an approach. It believes, with good reason and with wide international concurrence, that the attackers came from Pakistan; it has identified others involved in the attack and demanded action against them, including uprooting the infrastructure they have established.
Pakistan's evasions before these demands do not bode well and push many Indians, especially those in the media, to wonder where the present diplomatic thrust is leading, and to ask pointedly whether there are any other options available, meaning direct action of some sort. New Delhi has not been swayed into bellicosity by such pressures, as the Prime Minister's remarks demonstrate, and continues for now to place its trust in diplomacy, recognizing no doubt that bilateral threats and intimidation would inhibit the current ratcheting up of international pressure on Pakistan.

India's diplomatic activity in pursuit of its goals is intensifying. Heads of Mission from a number of countries have been called home for a conference where they would no doubt have been suitably briefed and instructed to convey the same message to their respective countries that Mr. Pranab Mukherjee has voiced here - Pakistan is not doing enough; it must stop dragging its feet and it must deliver on terrorism-related demands. Meanwhile, Pakistan is reported to be mounting some sort of diplomatic initiative of its own, especially among Islamic countries.

This highlights another issue, for it is evident that Pakistani opinion sees the matter within the enduring context of Indo-Pak differences: the famous 'hyphen', emblem of abiding discord, remains firmly in place. Thus a whole medley of hostile stock responses about India's intentions and its hidden purposes is to be found in Pakistan's media discourse. But India has moved on and is not comparably inclined to see the issue as part of the existential question affecting the two countries.

Some measure of counterpart sentiment to what is rife in Pakistan is to be observed in the Indian media but on the whole, notwithstanding the sometimes perfervid performance of some TV channels, India has been more restrained: perhaps the shock of the event in India's premier city had a sobering effect, aided by the fact that the government has remained focused on essentials and has not tried to play on public sentiment.
International interest in the Mumbai attack has also been markedly different, not limited to the familiar hand-wringing and undifferentiated calls to both sides for peace and calm, perhaps because this time the evidence of the Pakistani origin of the terrorists is too overwhelming.

It is not India alone that has so concluded; US, British and other investigative agencies have their own assessments that point in the same direction. One important result is the reported recent tough talk of Secretary of State Dr. Rice to Pakistan's National Security Adviser in Washington to the effect that Pakistan had not done enough and must do more against the terrorists.

Pakistan would also be well aware of its current economic vulnerability. Just a couple of months ago, inflation was at 25% and assistance from the IMF essential to avoid default. The immediate crisis has been tided over but the basic problems remain, and with them the need for external assistance. But the world is very critical of Pakistan's handling of terrorism, witness the UN Security Council imposing sanctions against some individuals and the repeated urging of major countries for more decisive action.

Former Premier Nawaz Sharif has even raised the spectre of Pakistan being declared a 'failed state' if it shows incapacity to deal with its responsibilities. It is hard to imagine that with all these negatives piling up, the major donors on whom Pakistan must depend will continue to hand over substantial sums of money without insisting on a number of conditions.

There are arguments on the other side, too, relating principally to the strategic requirement of the USA and the West in Afghanistan which point to an ineluctable need to keep Pakistan afloat. Whatever the outcome, whether or not economic necessity will compel policy changes in its handling of terrorist establishments, Islamabad will have to tread carefully to avoid further alienation of the donor countries.

If there is a glimmer of hope for Pakistan that it may not have to submit to damaging demands, it lies in the record of ineffectiveness of international economic sanctions and the reluctance of the international community to take matters beyond a limit.

Zimbabwe is a case in point. For a prolonged period, the world's most powerful countries have been lined up against President Mugabe, trying to force him out of office, but to no avail. Mr. Mugabe's iron grip on power has remained, despite sweeping popular discontent and unimaginable levels of inflation; now there is a raging cholera epidemic to add to the misery. There can be no easy outcome in that country, or indeed in Pakistan, so long as the rulers are prepared to resist necessary change, even at the cost of inner turmoil and decay. They can be confident that there will be no external intervention to force them out, and the internal opposition is too weak to do the job. Meanwhile, heated up nationalistic rhetoric and street demonstrations make their mark and push the government deeper into a corner. In these circumstances, one cannot expect too much from President Zardari, even though he has given many signs of wanting to develop a new and mutually beneficial relationship with India. Thus matters are not becoming easier and External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee has not concealed his frustration at Pakistan's evasive tactics. The crisis has become more intense and shows every sign of stretching out into the coming months.

The chance of a genuine partnership in fighting the terrorists that flickered briefly at the start has been extinguished and Pakistan has reverted to a familiar adversarial mode. It is a dark and daunting setting for India to pursue the option of intensified diplomacy across the globe in order to attain the goal of wiping out the threat of further terrorist attacks from the territory of its neighbour.

The writer is India's former Foreign Secretary

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 25 Dec 2008 08:24

Mr. Haider's position is the familiar one that "tough talk" such as

Pakistan must do more

from US SOS Rice, constitutes effective policy against the Pakistani global terror enterprise, while calls for "direct action" by India are to be avoided.

The main message this conveys to Pakistan is that its inaction as usual, and there is no cost to their policy of terror attacks on India. Look at the cost-benefit equation:

Pakistan:
1. Killing Indians is eminently satisfying
2. Seeing Mumbai burn is even more satisfying
3. Killing Jews and Americans in India has huge payoff in donations from the Islamic World
4. American demands to "do more" are accompanied by donations of F-16s and cash.
5. Planning for the next attack can now be accelerated.
6. Kashmir Problem has been given international prominence.

India:
1. More Indians are dead or traumatized
2. India looks weaker to the world
3. India's cane-armed police are unfavorably compared to Pakistan's SSG commandos.
4. Indian economy is hit as India is seen as weak, unstable, dangerous.
5. Indian government looks more and more ineffective.
6. India's military advantage is seen to be completely nullified when push comes to shove.

Why would Pakistan change its behavior under the present Indian policy?

What is different now, that these 150 Ambassadors are suddenly going to tell the world? They are so disorganized that they can't even run an effective customer service operation at their own embassies and Consulates.

The Indian Foreign Service seems to be laboring under the notion that they are somehow relevant to the world.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 25 Dec 2008 08:34

narayanan wrote: Pakistan:
1. Killing Indians is eminently satisfying
2. ....

India:
1. More Indians are dead or traumatized
2. ....

Someone gives you a black eye for no reason, you take two of their teeth off. No one cares.

If instead, you cry, go complain to you aunt, and make a soap opera out of it. No one blames your opponent.

If you can't hit back, don't make a big deal of it.

Speak rarely, use your stick if you feel like it. Now is too late to respond, later will be forever late.

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 25 Dec 2008 08:45

The Indian Foreign Service seems to be laboring under the notion that they are somehow relevant to the world.

well said. talk talk inspire zero confidence

another 200 dead, 200 crippled
india is great because indian leaders are even greater (mayawati madam birthday celebrations led to death of engineer who refuse to pay hafta) and indian babus are greatest (reference lakshmic's post about our great babus now "realising" pakistan is a problem, abhi tak india ka khoon choos rahen the and going to intellectual event at JNU for culture)

this is not whining but just general level of disgust at the incompetents this nation has to suffer. for 60 years before pakistan developed nukes, they sat on their butts (we dont need army only police force, great shri JN) and now pakistan has nukes and india is going to world begging for world to save its people

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 25 Dec 2008 11:06

Rangudu wrote:milindc,

TSPA has some kind of set up and game plan ready so that it can "declare victory" and threaten nukes. It could be that they have people inside our land to sabotage or blow up key military facilities, ready to sink a ship etc. The longer time goes, the likelier it is that those plans will be found out. They too don't want a full scale war, they just want India to start one so that they can execute their playbook and then declare "victory." It could be that they have a submarine in the Bay of Bengal, for instance.

Plus, they know that it will be 2-3 months before any alternative Afghan supply line opens and the Bush-Obama transition has left US with a big vacuum so their leverage with the US is at its highest point now.

We need to take revenge on our own schedule.

I may add something more to it, Pakistanis are trying to find an excuse to hide the humiliation of conforming to IMF $7 Billion aid package to avoid defaulting on loans or declare bankruptcy. If we go to war now they will get a lifeline and we can't afford to give them life line. Wait for a year let them slide into anarchy and we can take a cherry pick of targets. Let every mohammad, zakir, hamid come to us with list of their skill set so we can exact revenge. TSPA game plan is to get some money by creating war hysteria, nuke holocaust scene such that they can get more oxygen in dying body. We should not be worried about the perception if we will look weak or chump or some other adjective. Our goal should be to assist the self destruction of pakistan. We should add fuel to the fire. Let their inflation go up higher than Zimbabwe, we should cut off all train, bus, sea trade routes. Remember this we have already fired two shots, first one was Indian or International banks do not honor LC(letter of credit) from any pakistani bank. Secondly, paki army is spending their valuable resources on CAP, Mobilizing their military from barracks to border and then will go back to barracks. This all cost Millions of dollars, depletes the fuel reserves, adds agony to average person. Patriotism, jingoism does not feed hungry stomachs, once the jingoism adrenaline affect draws down, emptyness surrounds you, depression takes over, unrest breeds anger and it boils over.
We have to be vigilant so these hungry losers, the worst form of life do not cross over and eat whatever little prosperity we have achieved.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 25 Dec 2008 11:32

Unfortunately the logical outcome of bankrupting TSP will probably be West Bangladesh or East Somalia.
BUT.. that's not to say that the Pakis aren't trying to do it to themselves:

Senator Nisar Memon of Pakistan Muslim League-Q said the government should impose economic sanctions on India by halting all kinds of trade and also disallow Indian exports to Afghanistan via Pakistan.

Two long overdue steps.

prashanth · Post by **prashanth** » 25 Dec 2008 11:48

Baljeet wrote:
I may add something more to it, Pakistanis are trying to find an excuse to hide the humiliation of conforming to IMF $7 Billion aid package to avoid defaulting on loans or declare bankruptcy. If we go to war now they will get a lifeline and we can't afford to give them life line. Wait for a year let them slide into anarchy and we can take a cherry pick of targets. Let every mohammad, zakir, hamid come to us with list of their skill set so we can exact revenge. TSPA game plan is to get some money by creating war hysteria, nuke holocaust scene such that they can get more oxygen in dying body. We should not be worried about the perception if we will look weak or chump or some other adjective. Our goal should be to assist the self destruction of pakistan. We should add fuel to the fire. Let their inflation go up higher than Zimbabwe, we should cut off all train, bus, sea trade routes. Remember this we have already fired two shots, first one was Indian or International banks do not honor LC(letter of credit) from any pakistani bank. Secondly, paki army is spending their valuable resources on CAP, Mobilizing their military from barracks to border and then will go back to barracks. This all cost Millions of dollars, depletes the fuel reserves, adds agony to average person. Patriotism, jingoism does not feed hungry stomachs, once the jingoism adrenaline affect draws down, emptyness surrounds you, depression takes over, unrest breeds anger and it boils over.
We have to be vigilant so these hungry losers, the worst form of life do not cross over and eat whatever little prosperity we have achieved.

Good analysis indeed. Surgical strikes are of no use. By now the mullahs would have fled from POK. IAF will end up emptying plane loads on mud huts with a few sheep. Following this, sympathizers from KSA and PRC will channel hundreds of millions to pukes. The swines of TSP military will use this to buy more arms and train more mullahs.In the end India will be the net loser.
War or not, India must now cut TSP into 4-5 pieces once for all.
As a start we must recognize independence of sindh and baloch. We might even offer to allow their govt in exile to operate in India. This tactic has been quite effective against china.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Dec 2008 12:45

Only effective surgical strikes are the bobbit ones.
----
One thing I dont understand is this. Everyoe and his godfather says that TSP wants to rush troops to Indian borders and that would give free rein to the Taliban/Pakiban dregs to wage war in Afghanistan and dethorne Karzai. Wont the mass exit of the TSP troops from the FATA/WANA areas allow the US to conduct air strikes at will on the dregs? Arent the dregs being supported with TSPA presence? So the US should say go ahead and go to the Indian border as it gives us free way to take care of the dregs by hot prusuit.

Why doesnt the US do that? Its munafa he muanfa!

Or is the US really stretched and wants to keep the pretence that TSPA is keeping the dregs under control in the badlands?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Dec 2008 12:49

Also has this been posted earlier?

Mumbai Terror attack is not an India-Pak issue

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 25 Dec 2008 13:24

Some interesting facts in this article.

http://www.assamtribune.com/scripts/det ... c2508/at01

Barbora, in a startling revelation, stated that the IAF has already prepared a plan of attack and had identified over 5,000 specific targets in Pakistan.

Besides, special groups have been formed to hit specific targets of the enemy.

“Intelligence inputs gathered, especially post-Mumbai terror strikes, indicated that the neighbouring country is more concerned about the potent nature of the IAF than that of the Indian Army, in which it enjoys parity in strength,” Barbora said during a media interaction programme ‘Pride of North East’ in the city.

Substantiating his claim, the Air Chief Marshal, who recently served as the chief of the Eastern Command, stated that the IAF boasted the most advanced aircraft in its armour, including the potent SU 30 MKI, which was eight times more effective than a MiG 31.

“Pakistan does not have SU 30 MKI, which is considered as the most powerful of the fourth-generation aircraft,” Barbora stated, adding, “The IAF is intending to induct 200 such aircraft and it currently has 100 of them.”

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 25 Dec 2008 13:28

Baljeet wrote: I may add something more to it, Pakistanis are trying to find an excuse to hide the humiliation of conforming to IMF $7 Billion aid package to avoid defaulting on loans or declare bankruptcy. If we go to war now they will get a lifeline and we can't afford to give them life line. Wait for a year let them slide into anarchy and we can take a cherry pick of targets. Let every mohammad, zakir, hamid come to us with list of their skill set so we can exact revenge. TSPA game plan is to get some money by creating war hysteria, nuke holocaust scene such that they can get more oxygen in dying body. We should not be worried about the perception if we will look weak or chump or some other adjective. Our goal should be to assist the self destruction of pakistan. We should add fuel to the fire. Let their inflation go up higher than Zimbabwe, we should cut off all train, bus, sea trade routes. Remember this we have already fired two shots, first one was Indian or International banks do not honor LC(letter of credit) from any pakistani bank. Secondly, paki army is spending their valuable resources on CAP, Mobilizing their military from barracks to border and then will go back to barracks. This all cost Millions of dollars, depletes the fuel reserves, adds agony to average person. Patriotism, jingoism does not feed hungry stomachs, once the jingoism adrenaline affect draws down, emptyness surrounds you, depression takes over, unrest breeds anger and it boils over.
We have to be vigilant so these hungry losers, the worst form of life do not cross over and eat whatever little prosperity we have achieved.

Nothing wrong with waiting for, say, an year or so, let them fall into further anarchy & then settle it for once & for all.

But, what I fear is that an year is long enough for the fickle Indian public & government to forget everything. Porkis would be playing in IPL, their gawaiiyas would be playing their bands in our rock fests & our 'secular' media will be talking of peace & harmony.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Dec 2008 14:28

US doesnt have alternative supply chain yet. PA can make sure the pak route is 100% over.

plus they probably figure if pakis are cut loose the PRC will take over and extend its claw
down the indus valley to karachi and gwader.

so they want to retain some control as the main sponsor of pak govt in whatever format.

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 25 Dec 2008 14:48

deleted...

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 25 Dec 2008 14:49

Chandragupta wrote:
Baljeet wrote: I may add something more to it, Pakistanis are trying to find an excuse to hide the humiliation of conforming to IMF $7 Billion aid package to avoid defaulting on loans or declare bankruptcy. If we go to war now they will get a lifeline and we can't afford to give them life line. Wait for a year let them slide into anarchy and we can take a cherry pick of targets. Let every mohammad, zakir, hamid come to us with list of their skill set so we can exact revenge. TSPA game plan is to get some money by creating war hysteria, nuke holocaust scene such that they can get more oxygen in dying body. We should not be worried about the perception if we will look weak or chump or some other adjective. Our goal should be to assist the self destruction of pakistan. We should add fuel to the fire. Let their inflation go up higher than Zimbabwe, we should cut off all train, bus, sea trade routes. Remember this we have already fired two shots, first one was Indian or International banks do not honor LC(letter of credit) from any pakistani bank. Secondly, paki army is spending their valuable resources on CAP, Mobilizing their military from barracks to border and then will go back to barracks. This all cost Millions of dollars, depletes the fuel reserves, adds agony to average person. Patriotism, jingoism does not feed hungry stomachs, once the jingoism adrenaline affect draws down, emptyness surrounds you, depression takes over, unrest breeds anger and it boils over.
We have to be vigilant so these hungry losers, the worst form of life do not cross over and eat whatever little prosperity we have achieved.
Nothing wrong with waiting for, say, an year or so, let them fall into further anarchy & then settle it for once & for all.

But, what I fear is that an year is long enough for the fickle Indian public & government to forget everything. Porkis would be playing in IPL, their gawaiiyas would be playing their bands in our rock fests & our 'secular' media will be talking of peace & harmony.

How does secularism fit in between India and Pakistan?The concern is between two nations , i suppose.
Indian'secular'media is a menace.These mofos never miss a chance to promote their individual interests ahead of the nation.They need to be stoned to death...or may be rewarded with HIV injections in their butt.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Dec 2008 14:50

my theory: our political and business leaders with some exceptions are a self-serving
pack of dogs.

the center of gravity for these two domains is delhi and mumbai as in they live there,
their industries and investments are made in that region, their extended families and
friends mostly live there.

both are within easy range of pakistan by any means of attack.

Z-cat++ counts for nothing against a air delivered munition or missile. only very senior
leaders of ruling party can expect a seat inside the bunker, rest will have to take
their chances. not a single one will sit there through a extended war like churchill or
the english king did.

I figure they'd be more willing to be active and earn their massive retainers if the
centers of gravity were well out of range of all but few ballistic missiles like chennai
or coimbatore or trivandrum.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 25 Dec 2008 15:10

The only silver lining I can see about the current GOI is that the commies are no longer sharing power with UPA. Can't imagine what they would have been doing if they had any say in the current decision making process. 'War no option, local Indian terrorists generating from capitalist and hindu religious oppression onlee' would have definitely been the GOI line then.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Dec 2008 15:16

brinda madam has already gone on tv shouting malegaon investigation mein koi kami nahi hone chahiye.

but atleast she is a toothless pest being out of UPA.

RavinM · Post by **RavinM** » 25 Dec 2008 18:14

Just assuming there would be surgical / curative strikes on porkistan, will they not, at the first instance resolve to use nukes, as the bloody pukes have no guts or resources for a convi war! they are all a bunch of suicide morons, and I read on another website their main motive is to destroy Bharat, they dont mind eating the dust!
if such is the case will there not be large scale destruction, starting with these strikes, and grave socio-economic impact! will the US be willing to stop them from using nukes, or safeguard them falling into terrorist hands?
Can the BR gurus comment on this!

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 25 Dec 2008 18:54

RavinM wrote:Just assuming there would be surgical / curative strikes on porkistan, will they not, at the first instance resolve to use nukes, as the bloody pukes have no guts or resources for a convi war! they are all a bunch of suicide morons, and I read on another website their main motive is to destroy Bharat, they dont mind eating the dust!
if such is the case will there not be large scale destruction, starting with these strikes, and grave socio-economic impact! will the US be willing to stop them from using nukes, or safeguard them falling into terrorist hands?
Can the BR gurus comment on this!

There is no doubt about the porki motto and make no mistake,someday we have to face the porki nukes.If we don't attack them today because we have achieved a little progress , we will not be able to do it tomm as we will have done a little more progress.Lets face it, the sooner we destroy this satan, the better it is.We cannot afford inaction for the fear of nukes.We should nuke the porkis and the bangladeshi morons first , settle it for once and all.Sometimes war is the best option and sometimes , the only option. We should not go for a surgical strike, it should be an all out war, that too, starting with nukes.It is better to suffer the nuclear fallout than a direct nuclear strike.Someday we have to make this choice, why not today.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 25 Dec 2008 18:58

This map on stratfor is wrong on two counts.

1. POK is legally indian territory. Western media being purists of the other kind are then expected to draw a dotted line showing the LOC and Marking the whole of the state of J&K with a strong line displaying the borders of the state.
2. On this map they have drawn a line from NJ9842 - the northernmost tip of the LOC and extended it to the Karakoram Pass, in effect taking out Saltoro range and siachen glacier out of indian areas.
Currently based on the Actual Ground Position line that denotes the areas held by india are as follows
NJ9842 - Gyong La - K12 - Bilafond La - Saltoro Kangri 1 - Sia La - Indira Col

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 25 Dec 2008 19:14

narayanan wrote:This is one of the great migrations of pork.

many of the militants hiding out in camps in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir have already fled.

So the "mujaheddin" are running East to West to hide, and the Pakistan Army is running West to East to avoid them and the Predators. Obviously the safest place in Pakistan is the Indian frontier, since the airstrikes will be in downtown Pindi and Islamagood.

It's the "safest place" for another reason....the peace loving UPA is not going to do anything.
Soon peoples will will wear down & all will be forgotten.

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 25 Dec 2008 19:49

http://specials.rediff.com/news/2008/de ... letter.pdf

HM's letter to CMs

OCR transcript follows:

December 17, 2008

Dear Chief Minister,

This is my first letter to you and other Chief Ministers. Regrettably, it is on a matter that has caused great anguish among the people of India and continues to engage the attention of every one. It is on the threats emanattng from terrorists to India and the Indian people.

2. I know that you will, as I do, take this matter with utmost seriousness. We have undertaken a thorough review of the security systems that are in place with special reference to Intelligence gathering, Intelligence sharing and prevention of terrorist attacks such as the one that took place in Mumbai on November 26, 2006. The people expect uS to ensure the security of India and the security of the lives of the Indian people. Nothing less will do.

3. Shortly, we propose to convene a meeting of Chief Ministers/Home Ministers of the States/Unlon Territories to discuss issues relating to the preparedness of the Nation to prevent terrorist attacks. The Prime Minister has indicatad that the meeting may be
held on Tuesday, January 6, 2009. Hence, I request you, in advance, to rearrange your programmes so that you will be in Deihl, without fail, to participate in the most important meeting at the beginning of the new year.

4. Meanwhile, there are some steps that I would urge you to kindly take immedlately. There is, in my view, no need to lose time discussing the matters that I have listed below which, I believe, are generally regarded as imperative and which should be implemented by all State/UT Governments forthwith. In fact, there is no time to
lose and, therefore, I sincerely hope that you will implement the following suggested measures before you attend the meeting on January 6, 2009.

5. The suggested measures are:

(i) The State/UT Government shall, with Immediate effect, establish a 24 x 7 control room to be manned by a young and energetic officer of the rank of DySP/SP in each shIft. The control room should be linked by computer (for e-mail), telephone, mobile telephone (for sms) and fax to the offices of the Collector and SP at the district headquarters. The control room should be the centre to receive and disseminate intelligence/Information pertaining to terrorism and other forms of org~nlzed violence;

(ii) The State Intelligence Wing must have an Analysis Group that will receive, collate, analyze, link up with previous Inputs and dissemInate Intelligence inputs. This Analvsis Group should work in two shifts totailng 16 hours.

(iii) Both the Control Room and the Analysis Group of the State Intelligence Wing should forward the Intelligence inputs and information to the Central Govemment on a real tIme basis. For the present, the Inputs and information may be sent to the Intelligence Bureau.

(iv) The Chief Minister and the Home Minister should Invariably, take a meeting every morning with the Chief Secretary, Home Secretary, DGP, DG/IG Intelligence and Commissioner of Police (of the State capital) to review the secUrity situation and Issue suitable gUidance;

(v) The Chief Minister and/or the Home Minister should take a meeting !It each district headquarters over a period of OM to two months (depending upon the number of districts In the State) with the District Collector, IG, DIG and SP concerned to review the security situation in the district and issue sUitable guidance. Such meetings" should be held at least three or four times in a year;

(vi)The State capital and all other major cities/towns, especially cities with municipal corporations, should be rid of;

(a) mafia gangs operating In the city/town;
(b) extortion gangs;
(c) land sharks; and
(d) loan sharks.

The DGP/CoP/SP concerned should draw up a plan to identify these gangs/sharks and send a clear message to them that they should leave the city/town immediately. The police know how to carry out thiS task. After a few days, a determined drive should be launched to apprehend the leaders of the gangs under the National Security Act, Goonda Act, Unlawful Activities Prevention Act or similar enactments.

(vii)Tha State Government should immediately identify major establishments, Installations and symbolic or iconic structures etc., and conduct a thorough review of the security arrangements there. A small team of commandos should be posltiol1ed at eac~ of these places round the clock. The Central Government 15 Willing to offer assistance to train and eqUip such commandos. The State Government may draw up two
programmes - one a short module for a limited number of commandos and the second a longer 'module for a larger number of commandos - and forward them to the Ministry of Home Affairs for drawing up the training schedule.

(viii) In major towns, important private establishments with large footfalls may also be identified and asked to ensure that proper access control and surveillance related security equlpments are Installed by the owners In a tIme bound manner.

6. I request you to kindly take steps to Implement the above measures expeditiously.

7. I look forwand to receiving you at the Chief Ministers Conrerence on Tuesday, January 6, 2009.

With warm regards,
Yours sincerely,
{P Chidambaram}

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Dec 2008 19:56

Indian Response to Terrorism: nothing.

RajaJi · Post by **RajaJi** » 25 Dec 2008 20:28

NRao wrote:Indian Response to Terrorism: nothing.

Spot on, you got it 100% right buddy. And about people saying "revenge is a dish best eaten cold" I say to them, it's already too late to strike pukistan now that their forces have come into action and taken a very aggressive defencive stand. It would of been best to hit them when the iron was hot. I'm sure a few months from now it will be all forgotten, and paki Indian bhai bhai ho jayega. They will console us saying that they too are the victims of the same menace called terrorism. Heck, most of the bollywood personalities are already saying that pukistan is also a victim. No matter how patriotic they seem and no matter the level of condemnation they have about the terrorist attacks in Mumbai, they make sure to say in their statement that pukistan is also a victim of terrorist, etc., etc.,

I remember this dialogue from the film "Hungama" where Rajpal Yadav says: "Hum koi mandir ka ghanta hain ke koi bi aaye aur baja ke chala jaye, jiska bhi dil kare baja ke chala jaye?" That particular analasys very accurately applies to India. It has become "mandir ka ghanta" jiska bhi dil kiya, baja dia. And instead of feeling violated and angry and having resolve to make the culprits pay for their misdeeds, we take pride in saying "that we spring back to our feet fast and these terrorist attacks don't effect us", what rubbish, it just makes us seem even more weak. Gives more reasons to the terrorists for future attacks. As much as I love India and take pride in being from a land of rich culture, I feel ashamed at the situation in India, irrespective of having such a large army, it's failed to take any action to the large blows that pukistan has been giving India. I mean if their ministers can come on t.v. and state that we will use nukes first, because we have a small army etc., compared to India, why aren't the Indian couterparts giving a beffiting response by saying that if you do that will will nuke you out of existence. We have to up their ante. But, oh no, we are so peaceful, we are from the land of the great Mahatama Gandhi, we can't say that. Such a pathetic state we are in.