Indian Military Aviation

Yusuf · Post by **Yusuf** » 13 Jan 2009 15:42

manjgu wrote:maybe they are verifying if we can monitor pakis from b'lore

Thats one massive radar it must have got

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 13 Jan 2009 15:44

Dmurphy wrote:
vishals wrote:Guyz, Couldn't believe my eyes...

I saw Phalcon taking off from HAL Airport bangalore today at 11:30 AM...
Thats funny. The article clearly mentions that the Phalcon was there on its way to agra. Why would it go to Bangalore?

May be the same way one heads straight to the mandir after entering a holy place.

It's likely to have flown in international airspace (rather than foreign airspace) throughout, so probably came over the Arabian sea.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Jan 2009 15:47

manjgu wrote:maybe they are verifying if we can monitor pakis from b'lore

kidoman · Post by **kidoman** » 13 Jan 2009 15:49

Phalcon mubarak ho..

By the way , why is GOI taking so much time for placing the order for 3 more..

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 13 Jan 2009 15:55

or may be its sent to fit Communications for net-centric operation, because it should be able to send data to every single Combat aircraft in service.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 13 Jan 2009 19:08

kidoman wrote:Phalcon mubarak ho..

By the way , why is GOI taking so much time for placing the order for 3 more..

I think they'll wait for the current Phalcons to realise their full potential and then go ahead with that extended order. Who knows, they might even ask for something more sophisticated on the next 3.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 13 Jan 2009 19:18

JTull wrote: It's likely to have flown in international airspace (rather than foreign airspace) throughout, so probably came over the Arabian sea.

The India Today article clearly mentions it touched down at palam airport before it headed towards agra. So it wouldn't have flown over araibian sea to get to bangalore from delhi. JMT. But who cares, they're finally here!

I treated myself to a softy cone on hearing that news..

Anshul · Post by **Anshul** » 13 Jan 2009 19:21

JTull wrote:
Dmurphy wrote:Thats funny. The article clearly mentions that the Phalcon was there on its way to agra. Why would it go to Bangalore?

May be the same way one heads straight to the mandir after entering a holy place.
It's likely to have flown in international airspace (rather than foreign airspace) throughout, so probably came over the Arabian sea.

It is likely that the Phalcon has been temporarily attached to ASTE to weed out bugs.Mossad has had access to the airframe long enough to resist planting some.

The second theory that comes to mind is...is this the second Phalcon which took a different route via Port Louis?

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 13 Jan 2009 21:01

Yusuf wrote:Dont think the Brahmos will be wing mounted. It will probably be belly mounted and might be restricted to just one missile per fighter.

If it's just one Brahmos per fighter as you're predicting, is it worthwhile then? Just one Brahmos per take off?

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 13 Jan 2009 21:25

Dmurphy wrote:
JTull wrote: It's likely to have flown in international airspace (rather than foreign airspace) throughout, so probably came over the Arabian sea.
The India Today article clearly mentions it touched down at palam airport before it headed towards agra. So it wouldn't have flown over araibian sea to get to bangalore from delhi. JMT. But who cares, they're finally here!

I treated myself to a softy cone on hearing that news..

I never said that. It would have flown over Arabian Sea to get to Bangalore. Then overland to Delhi/Agra. My guess is top-brass wanted to see it so a stopver at Delhi enroute to Agra.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 13 Jan 2009 22:10

We better have nice protection at Agra and some nice parameter defence.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 13 Jan 2009 22:14

Do you think all would be based in Agra? Probably not.

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 13 Jan 2009 22:29

Dmurphy wrote:
Yusuf wrote:Dont think the Brahmos will be wing mounted. It will probably be belly mounted and might be restricted to just one missile per fighter.
If it's just one Brahmos per fighter as you're predicting, is it worthwhile then? Just one Brahmos per take off?

Me thinks too there would be two brahmos , one on either wing.

kidoman · Post by **kidoman** » 13 Jan 2009 22:44

Dmurphy wrote:
kidoman wrote:Phalcon mubarak ho..

By the way , why is GOI taking so much time for placing the order for 3 more..
I think they'll wait for the current Phalcons to realise their full potential and then go ahead with that extended order. Who knows, they might even ask for something more sophisticated on the next 3.

Which current AEW do u think is more sophisticated than the phalcons.
E-2D Advanced Hawkeye??

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 13 Jan 2009 22:52

Arunkumar wrote:
Dmurphy wrote: If it's just one Brahmos per fighter as you're predicting, is it worthwhile then? Just one Brahmos per take off?
Me thinks too there would be two brahmos , one on either wing.

Since we are all speculating here, it reminded me of this photo taken by B Harry long back
http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/sho ... 5/size/big
seems to be 2 Brahmos (if you are the mockup-brochure believing type

)

Hariprasad · Post by **Hariprasad** » 13 Jan 2009 23:07

klein wrote:The First Phalcon is here !!!!
http://indiatoday.digitaltoday.in/index ... 8&Itemid=1
The Indian Air Force's newest force-multiplier, the first of three 'Phalcon' Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW) aircraft landed quietly in New Delhi on Sunday.

From the above link:

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Jan 2009 23:17

Anujan wrote:.......
Since we are all speculating here, it reminded me of this photo taken by B Harry long back
http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/sho ... 5/size/big
seems to be 2 Brahmos (if you are the mockup-brochure believing type )

that's actually three brahmos(what is the plural, brahmi like fungus and fungi ??) on the sukhoi. one between the engines and two on wing-root stations.

the idea conveyed to the public was that the mki can take one on centreline without a too drastic modification but could carry a total of three if it was modified accordingly.

Aditya_M · Post by **Aditya_M** » 13 Jan 2009 23:31

Woohoo! Welcome to the Phalcon!

As for the Brahmos, assuming that the Sukhoi carries one under each wing, can it launch just one and return with the other, or will the asymmetry cause too much trouble? Of course, it is a twin-engined / twin tailed plane and has DFBW to compensate, but this is a case that it may not have tried out yet. This is the most ambitious addition to the Sukhoi series yet. If I'm not mistaken the Bison *has* to launch one R-77 from each wing in succession, it cannot take the asymmetry.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Jan 2009 23:37

yes aditya, I remember that this question was raised on BR back then too and no info was forthcoming. I suspect this may be one of the reasons behind restricting the # to 1.

Ameet · Post by **Ameet** » 14 Jan 2009 01:05

Nihat wrote:Thank god , it has finally arrived - I would hope that the other 2 are also in place by this time next year and the contract for the next 3 is signed too .

AWACS is a modern day necessity which we lack in numbers.

from the article it looks like the contract for the next three are at an advanced stage and the contract is to be signed sometime this year. Of course with babus, they could sign it on december 31st at 11.59pm.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 14 Jan 2009 03:25

We surely need more than 3. So I hope they make a decision soon. Even the UK with such a limited airspace has more than 10 AEW aircraft of 3 different kinds!

HariC · Post by **HariC** » 14 Jan 2009 03:26

shiv aroor writes

50 Sqn will house the Phalcons

Was this reported before? It looks like they are finally filling up a hole in the IAF squadron numbering http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Units/Squadrons.html

HariC · Post by **HariC** » 14 Jan 2009 03:29

answering my own question

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2008/10/ne ... sight.html

Now there’s an even newer entrant that’s got everyone excited, No 50 squadron — a special unit that will operate the Phalcon Airborne Warning, Control and Command System, bought from Israel. The first Phalcon, fitted on an upgraded IL-76, is expected early next year.

Credit to the Indian Express guy

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 14 Jan 2009 05:09

HariC wrote:answering my own question

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2008/10/ne ... sight.html

Now there’s an even newer entrant that’s got everyone excited, No 50 squadron — a special unit that will operate the Phalcon Airborne Warning, Control and Command System, bought from Israel. The first Phalcon, fitted on an upgraded IL-76, is expected early next year.
Credit to the Indian Express guy

I see the airforce is still continuing its lazy practice of numbering squadrons after the types

No.125 -> Mi-25
No.126 -> Mi-26
No.78 -> Il-78
No.50 -> A-50

Maybe the same reason they selected No30 to fly the Sukhoi-30

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 14 Jan 2009 06:43

shameekg wrote:We surely need more than 3. So I hope they make a decision soon. Even the UK with such a limited airspace has more than 10 AEW aircraft of 3 different kinds!

There is also DRDO AWACS. if armed forces didn't like it, Israel has a low-cost, smaller phalcon based on G-550.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 14 Jan 2009 08:10

Congratulations to the IAF, finally !

A few good close-up snaps of the Phalcon, credits with the respective photographers:

Image 1

Image 2

Image 3

Div · Post by **Div** » 14 Jan 2009 08:44

If the Russians can put 2 Moskits(?) on the inner wing pylons, then 2 Brahmos shouldn't really be a big deal.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 14 Jan 2009 10:06

ajay_ijn wrote: There is also DRDO AWACS. if armed forces didn't like it, Israel has a low-cost, smaller phalcon based on G-550.

The issue is, we need to speed up acquisitions. Then we need to actively train our pilots and controllers using the new doctrine. And we need to integrate ground control with our new capability. No doubt the IAF has this planned, but the more aircraft they have, the quicker we train and the better prepared we are.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 14 Jan 2009 11:14

Div wrote:If the Russians can put 2 Moskits(?) on the inner wing pylons, then 2 Brahmos shouldn't really be a big deal.

Those are AS-17/KH-31 Kryptons my friend, AFAIK the Moskit can only be employed on the centre pylon given its weight and dimensions compared to the Kryptons.

viveks · Post by **viveks** » 14 Jan 2009 11:20

JaiS wrote:

Congratulations to the IAF, finally !
A few good close-up snaps of the Phalcon, credits with the respective photographers:
Image 1
Image 2
Image 3

I am very glad this day came. Something like this was very much needed in south asia. We do not need to over do things...but just be good with what we have. India seems to be becoming a big influential power. I would really thank the Jews of isreal to give us this gift...an awesome man -made architecture. As a future direction I would not advise the government to take maintain an ICBM force. I think it is a waste of money and ideas...

A gandhi nation with missiles (bhramastra) to cause harm is not that should be encouraged...

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 14 Jan 2009 11:23

JaiS wrote:

Congratulations to the IAF, finally !

A few good close-up snaps of the Phalcon, credits with the respective photographers:

Image 1

Image 2

Image 3

Wowie that's bloody beautifullll!!!!

Always amazes me to see that HUGE radome Heartiest Congrats to the IAF.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 14 Jan 2009 12:23

No fighter is structurally capable for wing mounted Brahmos, with any amount of modifications. Most aircraft inboard wing hardpoints are stressed for ~ 1000 kg @ 9g allowing carriage of 2000 lb PGMs. Comparative weights are Popeye2 @ 1134 kg Kh-59M @ 930 kg Kh-31P2 @ 600 kg. Brahmos @ 2000+ kg would shear the wing off during a simple turn!

The whole thing was a publicity stunt from BrahMos Corp. As are the Orion and P-8 pictures with wings bristling with missiles. In the upgraded Il-38, there are new mid-fuselage hardpoints for Brahmos. Sea Eagles were earlier carried in rear fuselage hardpoints.

Fighter centre fuselage hardpoints are usually stressed to 2000 kg for carrying EFTs. However the Su-27 family was designed without EFTs. Hence the current modifications will probably result in the Su30 two fuselage hardpoints being merged to a single hardpoint stressed to 2000-2500 kg.

Yusuf · Post by **Yusuf** » 14 Jan 2009 12:38

What is the possibility of fittings the P-8s with Brahmos?

Rahul Shukla · Post by **Rahul Shukla** » 14 Jan 2009 13:02

Very good news. The plane is a beauty...

pkudva · Post by **pkudva** » 14 Jan 2009 13:11

We should not waste an time in ordering more, i think that IAF will first look at the peformance of this beauty and then order. But the iniial information is that IAF has already made up its mind to order 4 more.
During the initial odering the integration will always be a problem but the follow on orders will be easy to execute because of the pas experience so the delivery will be fast when compared to the earlier deal.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 14 Jan 2009 13:31

Since the first has been delayed , expect the second and third to be delayed too but not by much. 3 operational AWACS by March 2010 I would think.

As for the contract of the next 3 , lets see . Given the babugiri and general elections too , either the contract should be signed very soon or not before December 09

Anshul · Post by **Anshul** » 14 Jan 2009 16:53

This bird looks very elegant to say the least.

Just wanna feast my eyes on one of these flanked by the MKIs during the R Day parade.Should be good PR.

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 14 Jan 2009 21:05

tsarkar wrote:No fighter is structurally capable for wing mounted Brahmos, with any amount of modifications. Most aircraft inboard wing hardpoints are stressed for ~ 1000 kg @ 9g allowing carriage of 2000 lb PGMs. Comparative weights are Popeye2 @ 1134 kg Kh-59M @ 930 kg Kh-31P2 @ 600 kg. Brahmos @ 2000+ kg would shear the wing off during a simple turn!

The whole thing was a publicity stunt from BrahMos Corp. As are the Orion and P-8 pictures with wings bristling with missiles. In the upgraded Il-38, there are new mid-fuselage hardpoints for Brahmos. Sea Eagles were earlier carried in rear fuselage hardpoints.

Fighter centre fuselage hardpoints are usually stressed to 2000 kg for carrying EFTs. However the Su-27 family was designed without EFTs. Hence the current modifications will probably result in the Su30 two fuselage hardpoints being merged to a single hardpoint stressed to 2000-2500 kg.

Strengthening flanker fuselage would also allow DRDO to develop heavy LACMs with large nuclear or conventional bunker buster warheads. F-15s can carry one 1800 kg GBU-28 in their centerline while F-111 can carry 2.

But what makes Russian ramjets so heavy/huge as compared to turbojet/turbofan. almost all Russian Ramjet powered missiles, Sandbox, Shipwreck, sunburn, Krypton, yakhont, brahmos are really giant, heavy and long although compared to Sunburn, Brahmos is somewhat smaller and shorter.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 14 Jan 2009 22:08

The Rafale can carry 5 X 2000 ltr tanks on a variety of pylons. The Scalp EG which weighs around 1400kg is carried on 2 pylons (not inboard, but in the middle).

But TSarkar is right, most a/c don't seem to manage above 2000kg in inboard pylons. Although lets not forget that the Su-34 can carry 2X3000ltr (2500kg?) tanks in this config. Of course, one can't expect 9g maneuvers under the circumstances. The airlaunched brahmos ought to be close to the 2500kg mark.

Its an interesting development considering Pillai's statement in october 08 that integration wont be done till 2011-12. Wonder if this is a consequence of the sabre rattling going on currently.

I would like to see some airlaunched Kloobs in IAF/IN service though (1300kg). The sizzler is an excellent mijjile, weighs a LOT less and was last advertised with the IN fulcrums and the Su-35 (maks 07?). Maritime Rambhas with 2 X Klubs + 1 Brahmos would make an impressive sight

photo credits: defence update.com

btw, it seems the Gripen's out of the MRCA race based on Huma Siddique's article. Too similar to the LCA I am guessing. Good move.

REgards,
CM.

Aditya_M · Post by **Aditya_M** » 14 Jan 2009 23:20

Are those gold-tinted windows (a la F-16) i see in the first two photos?

Also, LOTS of little antennae under the body. As many as a dozen. Looks like the IAF gave them a nice shopping list. And I'd like the IAF to thrash this one out for six months, THEN give the follow-up order with little tweaks to the original

Meanwhile, DRDO - your turn now! Give us a tactical AEW, and we can have a nice twin layer of security...