Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

Hari Sud · Post by **Hari Sud** » 19 Jan 2009 20:38

Aditp

Thanks, I will not begin a new thread. It was a scenario to fill up the gap between long delays at the other people's scenario. Surprisingly it became at hit at UPI Asia website.

But, as and when Shankar begins his scenario (which I am sure he is collecting information for it), BR should let him begin a new thread.

The current thread mostly Vivek's is irregularly posted and uneven battle, these days stuck at Dalet Beg Oldi is not making a progress. He has been there for the last three months, never making a progress beyond a brigade level action. The Ladhakh front spreads from DBO to Chusul. When the Chinese fight, they open up at as many places as possible.

Vivek's fight in Twang sector is unfinished. We have to wait when he opens up with Col Patel and others at Twang.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 19 Jan 2009 23:24

This is getting ridiculous.

Hari Sud wrote:The current thread mostly Vivek's is irregularly posted and uneven battle, these days stuck at Dalet Beg Oldi is not making a progress. He has been there for the last three months, never making a progress beyond a brigade level action.

The point of which has been clearly lost on the reader.

Tactical scenarios are different from Strategic scenarios. Mine clearly falls into the former category. If the reader wishes strategic scenarios where tactical maneuvers are glossed over without explaining the difficulty or the technical advantages and limitations, clearly he will not get those from my scenario. I have heard far too many stories of hardship from those involved in high altitude operations to even think of glossing over the difficulties involved in land warfare in the region. And especially one against China.

Note that tactical scenarios will progress far more slowly than strategic simulations. It will not have the hard hitting strategic results available without the reader digging into the minute details. Battles will be simulated as closely as possible to real life counterparts at least at the small unit levels. In doing so, battles appear disjointed, confused and the results far from clear. Land is grabbed, lost, grabbed, lost and repeated again until one side is exhausted and the other is not. But these are the realities on the ground in any battle. The soldiers who have to fight these battles are not in a position to have the luxury of thinking in grander terms any larger than the gun in his hand and the enemy in front of him. If the expectation on this discussion thread is a strategic simulation of a war, surely the battle being portrayed currently around DBO would be uneven and disjointed. In fact, it should not even be here.

Another note. Strategic scenarios involving air, naval and missile exchanges can still be tactical because of their very nature. But with ground battles there can be no alternative to detailing the dusty and grimy nature of war. Anything else is simply glossing over the results and in my view a mistake given the large thinking ability of the folks here as well as considering the lessons of history.

The Ladhakh front spreads from DBO to Chusul. When the Chinese fight, they open up at as many places as possible.

I suppose my scenario treats the overall war in a different light. Events on other fronts are portrayed in the form of consequences to the unit battle being detailed. The reader has to read the scenario carefully. Every sentence in there comes with some meaning. Applying the mindset of a strategic scenario to a tactical one will not work. Alternatively, expecting the tactical scenario to apply to every single unit on the front is also unrealistic.

In this context the above comment set me off completely. Do disrespect to Hari_sud, but that statement was basically trashing my entire work on the scenario so far in insinuating that either I had lost sight of the overall progress of the scenario or that I hadn't considered such an event despite the man hours of work put into the research in this field.

Finally, on the accusation of floundering scenario development on my part, I wonder if the readers are in fact reading the time frame in which the different posts take place. If different events in a tactical situation take place over the course of several minutes, and if each of these then requires detailed writing spread over days, then is that to be considered a stagnating scenario or a complex one?

I leave the readers on this thread to come to their own conclusions on my above observations.

In any case, I think I would continue writing my scenario till the day comes (and I get the feeling it might not be far off) that I am told to stop here.

-Vivek

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Jan 2009 23:27

vivek, you have PM.

Mihir.D · Post by **Mihir.D** » 19 Jan 2009 23:33

Vivek,

Please continue with your scenario in your style. Lets others start there own scenarios as required.

ManuJ · Post by **ManuJ** » 20 Jan 2009 00:12

I normally don't post here, but this is really getting ridiculous. I consistently read Vivek's scenarios, because they are highly realistic and very well written. Can't say that about all the posters here, no offense. I don't care what 'extra-constitutional' post Hari Sud has been appointed to by the moderator(s), but his ignorant and foolish comments are only serving to alienate BR's best war-gamer. Vivek also makes very informed posts in other threads. So my request to Vivek, keep posting. You have many fans, although most prefer to remain silent. And Hari, please back off and think before you post. If you can't say anything good, keep your mouth shut.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 20 Jan 2009 00:35

Vivek-ji,
People at BRF are C R A Z Y about your writing style and the way you present grim reality. It has given us armchair generals a peek into the grime and dust of war sitting in the coziness of our homes and offices. Please continue with the good work.

PS: I for one will complain about the need for more frequent posts from your side on this thread, withdrawal sets in very quickly you see...

Hari Sud-ji,
Come on, let vivek-ji get on with his story in the style he puts it in. I can understand your frustration at the speed in which the scenarios unfold, but that's the style we are unlikely to see anywhere else. I have not seen such minute reporting of war or building a scenario at the level of the soldier or the commander in the field anywhere else - no movie no novel. I know I couldn't write something like this. You have to have been in the field to be able to do this AND you have to have the intelligence to put it in so many words and in a way that is both exciting and believable. I vote we all let vivek continue his great storytelling the way he wants to.

But I agree that Ladakh is not one sector, I think there are three areas there, Nay four.

The area around Daulat Beg Oldi - the Depsang Plains,
The area around Rezang La - Chushul and further north,
and finally the area around Fukche - Demchok.
I think there is a fourth area, the Shaksgam Valley north of Siachen, that Pakistan transferred to china. China has easy access to this area via low lying valleys, besides this area is not snowed out like the area around siachen. The chinese could do something naughty here to help the pakistanis get a hold on the Saltoro Range, with the Indian Army in Siachen and Saltoro sandwitched between the Pakistanis below saltoro and the chinese on the shaksgam valley.

vila · Post by **vila** » 20 Jan 2009 01:21

Vivek,

The tragedy is that in this forum a "self styled expert" is preaching without any understanding/appreciation of the effort involved in writing a realistic scenario. He had been snubbed more than once in the past but I think it has no effect on his kanchan armour type of skin.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 20 Jan 2009 01:34

vila wrote:Vivek,

The tragedy is that in this forum a "self styled expert" is preaching without any understanding/appreciation of the effort involved in writing a realistic scenario. He had been snubbed more than once in the past but I think it has no effect on his kanchan armour type of skin.

I second that.
Vivek Sir, please ignore the unsolicitated advise /s hell bent on killing the excitement and keep the great work going . Mucho Gracias.

Hari Sud · Post by **Hari Sud** » 20 Jan 2009 02:18

Vila; Prem

You have any knowledge of Vivek's tactical military expertise or you are guessing it that he is got to be good?

I suggest you have to put a closure to your views and both of you simmer down.

In the meantime let me talk to Vivek and ask him why is he so delayed in his postings and how come he does not close battle in one area before he switches to another area. If he like to that, novelists usually do, but they always return and pick up where they left.

That is a fair question to you Vivek you can answer that. I am expecting rest of you to let Vivek and Vivek only answer it.

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 20 Jan 2009 02:25

Hari ji,
What you wrote in your Indo-pak scenario was wonderful and what Vivek is doing is also wonderful.The difference is you made a 2 hour movie and he is making a multi-year serial with precise details.
You both are different and both should be encouraged.We are comfortable with Vivek's writing speed.Actually, he's doing us a favour burning his midnight oil and i think he deserves respect for that.
Btw , if you think Vivek is slow, you should make one more movie and fill in the gaps.We are here to watch.
Let us be positive and creative in our criticism , if necessary. No dhoti pulling like politicians...

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 20 Jan 2009 03:19

Hari Sud wrote:In the meantime let me talk to Vivek and ask him why is he so delayed in his postings and

There is no question or argument on the issue of slow posting. The posts are slow in frequency. Perhaps given the nature of the battle being portrayed, one expects a quicker series of posts, and I can understand that (I certainly did when writing it). But that is something that has been a handicap on my side for some time due to a variety of reasons, including travel, work etc. Some of it also invariably is a result of the time taken to plot out these simulations and jot them down, as it were. Not as simple as it might sound at first thought. In any case, post frequency is a charge I accept. And at the same time all I can say is that I can try to improve on it, nothing more.

how come he does not close battle in one area before he switches to another area. If he like to that, novelists usually do, but they always return and pick up where they left.

This works fine (and in fact I used it all the time in my first Indo-China scenario) in cases where the time frame separating the scenes are large enough (here large enough is a relative term. It might just be half an hour, say) or the scenes themselves are fully autonomous (That is, the scene starts and ends within the same post). However, in cases where the scenes are separated by mere minute intervals, and the posts themselves are connected, it merely serves to make the battle disjointed. Granted that the posts for the DBO battle were posted somewhat irregularly, but now that its at an end, copy paste the scenes on to MS-Word and read it in one go and you will see what I mean.

In effect you can term it as stretching the time (slowing the pace) to go into a particular battle etc in more detail that would otherwise be possible. It is also about being thorough technically and militarily regarding a battle (and its results and repercussins) thought to be crucial to the scenario.

It deviates from my earlier scenario attempts in speed and details mainly because of the increased level of information that followed from retired Military folks among others after my first attempts of writing the scenario two years ago. And it has definitely affected my outlook on my scenario. The current scenario is supposed to be a slower and more detailed scenario than the first one.

But having explained my reasoning to choose such a form of writing, in choosing to do so I was merely exercising freedom in writing. My question to the powers that be is whether tolerance for such efforts is now over? Because if so, then it would be logical to either transfer this scenario to another thread, or shut it down on BR. It serves no one if we spend time here debating the need for such a scenario at every step of the way.

-Vivek

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 20 Jan 2009 03:48

Hey Vivek-ji,
Fully support you. Your scenarios are one of the better things that have happened on BRF. And we are all the more richer for having gone through them.

Please shrug this off, and continue in your usual manner - this earnest and humble request from me personally and from almost everyone here.

Nothing needs being changed for now. Or if the Admins feel it is required, a seperate link to all of Vivek-ji's scenarios in serial order along with the various maps can be created in the archives, or in an e-book format even. Only Vivek-ji (And Mods) will have the rights to edit and change material there.

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 20 Jan 2009 04:16

This is getting ridiculous.

Folks, Vivek is posting professional-quality work here, for free. Editors at a publishing house have the right to badger an author about the speed and the scope and the flow of his writing--because the author is getting paid. Even then, a sensible editor treats an author with respect: there are many more editors in the world than there are talented writers. An unreasonable editor can be easily replaced, and if the publisher has a brain, he will do so, quickly, before the author decides to jump ship.

It is my professional opinion that Mr. Sud needs to find another outlet for his energies besides harassing Vivek with his inanity.

In any event, Vivek, I would recommend that you set up a personal website, and migrate your work there. That is a standard practice among authors: it lets you create and build a unique brand (around your name), and it safeguards your intellectual property, as well. You and B-R could still have a relationship by B-R linking to your work, if you would be open to that.

I'm sending an email to your Yahoo account now; email me back if you have any questions.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Jan 2009 05:27

Seriously speaking, we have had enough of this unsolicited advice that eschews all pretext of decency and assumes expertise on the part of the gyandata where none exist.

Let me spell out once again the rules by which this thread functions :

a)the authors will post on their own terms taking as much or as little time as they want. The MOST one can do as fans is to request them to post quicker/consider alternate points.

b)the requests should be presented in decent language without patronising. an assumption of superiority of any kind is most likely to be disgracefully misplaced.

c)remember that the authors are doing a favour to us, not we to them. behave accordingly.

d)rude posts will be summarily deleted, no questions asked.

e)there is NO rule that says 2 or more scenarios can't run concurrently. there is absolutely NO need for anybody to wait for an author to finish his scenario. the original scenario threads had people like singha,YIP, Dileep and SS writing at the same time.
So if you are holding on to your scenario for the perfect moment, please understand that it is your personal decision and other author(s) can't be blamed for not finishing their scenario quickly enough.

actually, it is expected that a BRFite can read two or more scenarios side by side without blowing up their heads.

regards everybody.

p.s. the above applies to everyone.

Jay · Post by **Jay** » 20 Jan 2009 07:17

This thread only exists to the whims of the Author and Mods, Period. What Vivek is doing is a lot better then numerous Cut & Paste scenarios that we have come across in the web. Hari Sud, if you think that the DEVIL IS NOT IN THE DETAILS then your scenarios can be completed in 7 words. 'India Pakistan go to war, India wins' and pardon the sniping, but your scenarios looks like its been inspired by the series 24(Atleaset the ending).

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 20 Jan 2009 08:52

At first I thought I shouldn't post, but after seeing couple of posts, especially Rahul M's, I thought I should atleast post what a reader looks for..

1. The pace, content of narration is exclusive domain of the Author. Read it if you like it, otherwise don't. Constructive critisism is helpfull though.
2. However I am with Sri Hari Sud regarding regularity of posting. I do not agree that Vivek or Shankar or Hari are doing the readers a favor by writing these scebarios. As a writer they do have obligation to post regular interval (whatever that interval may be, daily, Weekly monthly whatever...though I wish for an hourly post

), But they are not doing us a favor. If that is true, every post in this forum is a favor to everybody else.
3. They have an obligation to finish, once they start. Don't start anything you can't finish.

JMHO onlee

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Jan 2009 09:17

sunil, I respectfully disagree. while I'm with you about hourly updates (!) it is too much to expect people with demanding day jobs to submit to a dense schedule, especially for scenarios that require lot of background research like vivek's.

and they are doing this for free and you are getting to read this work exclusively, if that is not a favour I don't know what is.
other posts can't be compared simply because discussions and wargaming scenarios are entirely different creatures.
regards.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 20 Jan 2009 10:25

Rahul M, let's leave it.

However just to be sure I am not mis-understood, I really appreciate authors taking time to post such high quality scenarios. I enjoy them a lot, looking forward to Shankar starting his scenario. May be Sri Hari Sud can start another one. That way even if they post once a week, we have some thing to read every second day..

I know ..I know, I am greedy..

ovein · Post by **ovein** » 20 Jan 2009 10:57

I am a avid reader of the scenerio post for years. I found the writing of Vivek is one of the quality. Ideally i would have like to read the whole scenerio without any break. but if this is the quality i have compromise then "breaks" .. a small price.

The writing is superb. i will just request Vivek to keep on. I will loook for youe book.

Thank you, thank you, thank you

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 20 Jan 2009 11:02

Hari Sir, I find it ironical that you should criticise Vivek's work. With all due respect, I believe that his scenario is much more realistic than yours which I found was much more imaginative than required. Though I do agree that he should post more often, I don't think any of us are in a position to 'instruct' him, to be able to read his scenario is a privilege & should be treated like one.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 20 Jan 2009 11:20

I'm all for Vivek's realistic scenarios and if it takes time then so be it . Also , it would be better off if we let this thread just for Scenarios and some suggestions , a lengthy discussion dilutes the continuity and flow of of is an excellent scenario , as close as any of the armchair generals here can get to the real battle field.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 20 Jan 2009 11:39

Vivek, we like our food well cooked. Please entertain no tendency for fast food rubbish.
A stew is always cooked for a long time over slow fire.

vila · Post by **vila** » 20 Jan 2009 11:54

I dont know about viveks military expertise or what he does but I know some other things. Anyway I am restrained by some other conditions. I totally agree with Rahul, the authors are not under any obligation whatsoever regading the frequency of the posts or scenarios. We as BRFites have every right to criticise what he writes but not how he writes. Let us for once and all put a stop to it and not waste our time and disturb the author. If anyone doesnt like Viveks scenarios dont read it go elsewhere but for gods sake dont preach.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 20 Jan 2009 11:56

sunil i second that
we can have a scenarios section and threads by multiple authors, that way we dont mix up things.
what do you mean by greed, its natural.

sunny_s · Post by **sunny_s** » 20 Jan 2009 21:47

Iam really shocked to see a comment like this coming from shri hari ji,if iam not mistaking he with great authority sometime back had adviced other BR readers not to put pressure on vivek ji for delivering his posts at a much faster rate,so why a change in stance today???why today we have a person like vivek ji having apprehentions that he in the near future may be asked to stop writting here???? are we all not aware of vivek ji's writting skills,should'nt we be encouraging vivek sir,his taking time as a alot of research is also thier,n if the gap is really making a few people so impatient we have with us many gentlemen who with thier posts in between can add more to this thread..VIVEK JI u have a big fan following here u kindly continue at ur own pace.waiting for more from you.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 20 Jan 2009 22:02

Gentlemen,

With everybody's permission I would like to proceed ahead with the scenario. I have taken notes on everybody's comments and I would like to thank the folks here for their support, critique and opinions.

I will try to post more regularly than before. Maybe smaller posts on days of heavy work, but will try to keep the posts coming.

Thanks.

-Vivek

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 20 Jan 2009 22:04

HAL AIRPORT
BANGALORE
DAY 4 + 0930 HRS (L)

The greyish clouds over Bangalore and the slight rain were not helping matters along. Pools of water on the tarmac were reflecting the greyish cloud filled sky above even as the ground crewmen began to push the first LCH into the cavernous interiors of the parked IL-76. They were pushing it along because it weighed as much as a feather in comparison to the beast it was entering into.

Wing Commander Dutt was standing by the ramp of the parked IL-76 along with two of his test pilots in their grey overalls as the senior NCO was shouting at his men to push the lightweight attack helicopter into the fuselage of the IL-76 without hitting banging it anywhere along the way. As Dutt watched, another spout of rain began to fall from the sky. The weather was bad, at least for flying, and he wondered whether nature would force its way into the combat debut of his newborn 119HU. But the captain of the IL-76, another senior “Wingco” had assured him that the flight to Leh would take place regardless of the pitiful weather around them. They were not going to provide history an excuse as feeble as weather to justify their abandoning their duty...

The IL-76 had arrived from Sonegaon airbase, Nagpur, where it was based under No. 44 Squadron or “The Mighty Jets”, as they were called. This particular aircraft was available only because it had been coming of a maintenance overhaul when the war with china had blown over and therefore had spent the first four days of the war in Sonegaon. Most of the IL-76 fleet under 44 Squadron and 25 Squadron had already left their home bases and were flying literally everywhere, every hour of the day. The crews were getting exhausted due to the hectic induction of troops taking place in Laddakh under enemy fire. India had been caught off guard because of the machinations of the Chinese and the indulgence of the Indian Government into their diplomatic feint. And at the moment the outcome of the ground war in Laddakh was anybody’s guess.

The induction of the LCHs of 119HU into Laddakh was currently underway. Six helicopters had been literally pulled off the production and testing lines and therefore in many ways each helicopter was unique in some capacity or another. The only weapons that had been tested thoroughly had been the chin cannon and the unguided rockets. The integration of the helicopter mounted Nag missiles, called HELINA, had been incomplete when W/C Dutt’s office had been invaded by the Army and Air Force brass a day ago. The squadron, actually 119HU was merely a Flight, was still taking the ready rounds of the HELINA with them along with most of the civilians to see if anything could be done about the ATGM integration once at Leh. These HAL employees had already been working night and day to get the system up and running ever since the war started. Desperate measures for desperate times. Laddakh was currently feeling the heat from the Chinese armour that had reached the warzone quicker than their Indian counterparts thanks to the terrain and the element of strategic surprise.

But all said and done, this attack helicopter unit was being inducted in Laddakh for a job that would not require ATGMs, and yet it might contribute more towards turning the battles around...

“So how are we doing?” the Air Marshal asked as he walked over to Dutt. The latter pointed towards the first LCH being strapped to the floor inside the IL-76 by the ground crews even as another was being pushed into position behind it.

“We are on time. The second helicopter is being loaded right now. Then we just have to load the ATGMs, rockets, Cannon rounds, spare parts. We are also sending a group of ground crews and two of my pilots along. We need to hit the ground running once we land at Leh.” Dutt answered. The Air Marshal nodded and then looked over to the remaining four helicopters parked outside on the tarmac waiting airlift. They had been covered with tarpaulins now that the rain had picked up slightly. Their main rotor blades had been removed and the tail rotor blade system locked down and feathered. Armed guards with rain water dripping off their INSAS rifles were patrolling the perimeter nearby even as a round of thunder ran across the dark and cloudy skies.

It would be much more sunny in Laddakh...Dutt reminded himself. He had studied both the long term and short term meteorological reports for his future AO. It was going to be bright and sunny, and cold like hell...Before they entered the battlefield, that is. After that they would contribute towards heating things up...He smiled to himself just as the Air Marshal started talking again:

“There has been a small change of plans, Dutt. You are to send a detachment of two helicopters to the FARP near Saser, south of DBO, after you reach Leh. Deploy another two of your birds at Shyok. The last two will remain at Leh.”

That caused Dutt to turn around. He did not like last minute changes in plans. The Air Marshal continued before the former could speak:

“My boy, the war in Laddakh is not going as planned for either side. The situation at DBO is a bloody mess. We have our chaps on the verge of being run over by Chinese tanks. They have beaten off the first wave of attacks, but without support they wouldn’t be able to last another. We are diverting every last Jaguar we can spare for the CAS role towards DBO until the situation stabilizes. Take your two birds there and see if you can even the odds, will you?”

Dutt absorbed what all he had been told just now. The stakes were high, and despite the politeness of his Commander, it wasn’t a request...

“What about supplies, sir? My unit has just been formed ad-hoc. It has barely a skeletal logistical and maintenance setup. You stretch us out there from Leh to Shyok to Saser, and I will be fighting to get the basic supplies sent to my guys just as much as I will be spending time fighting the reds.”

“It’s already been set up. We already have an ALH unit in Leh along with a Cheetah unit. Plus the Mi-17s at Thoise. Apart from that we have half a dozen other helicopter units in the region or arriving in the region as we speak. The forward detachments of 119HU will receive supplies and logistical support through these units. Use their setup to transport your special supplies. Understood?” the AM answered.

“Yes Sir. And what about our original task?” Dutt continued.

“It still stands as far as the two birds at Leh are concerned. You will receive your intelligence update from the Army chaps once you arrive at Leh. You think the job’s doable?”

“As long as the bloody weather doesn’t get in the way!” Dutt answered, putting his arm out into the pouring rain. His response got a amused grunt from his grizzled old commander before the latter walked away...

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 20 Jan 2009 23:02

THE VILLAGE OF DOKUNG
SOUTH OF KONGRA LA
SIKKIM
DAY 4 + 1015 HRS (L)

The six men of Team-Five had now slept for a few hours and had recieved another few hours to clean up and present themselves inside the Battalion CO’s office. Inside the room waited a reasonably large number of people waiting to talk to them. As the Major in command of the team walked in through the door, the SOCOM Lt-Colonel was off the chair along with all other unformed people in the room and salutes were exchanged. The RAW people didn’t bother getting up or even look away from the photographs that had been handed to them an hour ago.

These photographs, and some notes as well, had been taken by Team-Five members in the plains of Tibet. Many of these images showed the nature of the supply routes in the region as well as the layout and structural strength of the bridges, roads and other assorted infrastructure that made up the arterial and radial routes built by the Chinese. The notes had been written with special pencils because the ink froze inside the pens at the brutal arctic cold temperatures in Tibet. The handwriting was shaky as well because the hand that wrote those notes had been shivering at the time despite the gloves...

“So Major, what’s the tally?” the Battalion CO asked after settling down behind his table inside the room. The question caused the RAW officers to look up to see the Major’s response. The latter had a smile on his face by now even before he spoke:

“Twenty seven, sir. The ones we could count as confirmed, that is! Twelve of these belonging to a Chinese recon party actually heading out of Kongra-La as we were on our way out.”

The Battalion Commander did not like that final comment one bit because his Battalion was the one strung out north of Dokung and in charge of the security of Kongra-La and its defence along with the other two sister Battalions of the Brigade. The last thing he needed now were Chinese recon teams infiltrating behind his lines or causing mayhem among his units. Before the senior RAW officer could open his mouth regarding the nature of the trip near Gyantse, the Bat-CO spoke again:

“Major, was there any further indication of Chinese interest in the region of Kongra-La?”

The Major shook his head after giving it some thought: “No sir, not that we could see. But they do have some units out on patrol all along the border. The recon team we ambushed had the notes on unit dispositions and so forth for this sector, though. They had actually infiltrated behind our lines just as we had done behind theirs, roughly through the same route. But all indications from the notes I handed over to your Intel people showed that they probably wanted to know whether we had plans beyond Kongra-La rather than the other way around.”

It was now that the SOCOM Colonel spoke up: “And I will agree with the Major’s assessment on the matter. They will send more probes and recon teams into Sikkim from this sector, and we have to stop them getting this intelligence out. Thanks to the Major and his men we know now that the Chinese have in fact been sending teams across, just like us. We need more units out here to plug the gaps along the border. This Team of ours broke through the border by crossing the peaks rather than the passes and reached nearly the camp perimeter yesterday night before we spotted them. If we can do it, the Chinese can do it to. We must work with that assumption.” He looked at the Bat-CO: “Sir, we need to improve the security in this sector and plug the gaps.”

The Battalion Commander was less optimistic about his resource pool: “That means that I have to spread out my men even more thinly to plug these holes rather than keeping them concentrated into a fighting fist. That is a folly I can ill afford, especially against the Chinese. As you say, we need more units. I will forward the estimates up to my Brigade CO. Let’s see what comes off it. In any case, good work, Major. I will leave the further debriefing to our comrades in the RA&W here.” The Battalion CO leaned back into his chair and turned towards the SOCOM officer and gestured him to continue. The SOCOM Lt-Colonel turned to face the Major: “Anyway, coming to the strategic issues. Major, what’s the latest unit estimates at Gyantse?”

“55 and 11, Sir.”

“No. 55, huh?” the Colonel pondered. Yet another familiar number from the past...

“Yes Sir. 55 Division is already concentrated at Gyantse and has a Brigade on its way down towards the Chumbi Valley. We located the Divisional HQ and two Brigade HQs near Gyantse. We didn’t really see any units under 11 Division, sir, but we have this information based on eyewitness reports near the Karo-La that reported another Division on the way south towards Gyantse. That makes three, I believe.”

“Yes it does, Major. Good work on the number identifications.” The only other Colonel rank officer in the room said from where he sat on his chair next to the RAW officers. He was from the Sikkim Section of the DIA, and he knew just how deep the trouble in his sector went. He wasn’t done, though:

“We have a Chinese Brigade concentrating inside the Chumbi Valley opposite the Nathu-La. It will be ready to begin operations within a day or two at the max. The Chinese have another Brigade heading to join this first one based on the photographs you provided us. That leaves another Brigade under HQ, 55 Division at Gyantse. We can be sure that it will move down as well once 11 Div. Comes down to Gyantse from the Karo-La to the northeast.

"Now, you are the operators, so I cannot tell you what we have going on our side of the border, Major, but rest assured. We have a lot of shit heading our way unless we do something to slow down these Chinese Regiments racing towards the Chumbi valley. Of course, that’s where you come in...” the DIA officer looked over to his SOCOM comrade, who took over:

“Major, what would you say if I offered you another sojourn inside Tibet?”

ksmahesh · Post by **ksmahesh** » 20 Jan 2009 23:06

I took time to understand that writing a post on BRF is privilege hence I stay in lurker mode but reading recent posts (esp Hari Sud ji's) amaze me

Vivek, Shankar et al are (read "cannot be") under no pressure to post . What we get to read is excellent, balanced and detailed war scenarios. Writing these definitely is time intensive (and beyond the ability of people like yours truly). I am more than happy to read whatever comes my way (after all beggars cannot be choosers).

On a side note all of us would love to read more scenarios written by other authors. I was reassured by Shankar ji's post.

Vivek ji

One word for your writing style, substance and buildup - Mesmerizing.

johnny_m · Post by **johnny_m** » 21 Jan 2009 06:18

With Respect to Rahul, I think the issue between Vivek and Hari came down to what it is now because of poor moderation. When Hari was being critical at first Rahul supported him saying he is the mentor of this thread and that he sets the pace. So its natural that he took the matter into his own hands and demanded quicker posts. Rahul intervened a bit too late IMO. But then again everyone knows how hard moderating a large forum can be.

Vivek Ji,

I am a big fan of your writing style like most of us here. While I have no qualms with the regularity of the posts, I would really love this scenario to reach a conclusion. I read 230 pages of your last scenario which was posted in full here, It was outstanding but was really disappointed at the inconclusive and abrupt ending. I hope that this will be finished.

Hari Ji,

Your age and stature is deserving of respect. Your scenarios are also outstanding in their own peculiar way. I think it would be nice if you keep in mind that Vivek's scenarios focuses on individual battles while yours deal with a wider strategic context. Your scenarios are more academic and educational while his are Tom Clancy like thrillers.

If you respect and accept each others differing styles there won't be any issues.

Thanks
A Humble Fan

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Jan 2009 06:33

johnny, you are mistaken, it wasn't me.

and please let's not compare tom clancy's fanciful unrealistic scenarios with vivek's.
it's a graver insult than you might imagine.

frankly, I'm yet to see the down and dirty tactical level stuff vivek writes in any other book.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 21 Jan 2009 19:56

Demchock Sector with the Jara La Pass shown. Also seen are the positions of the army outposts.

CalvinH · Post by **CalvinH** » 22 Jan 2009 07:29

Rahul M wrote:johnny, you are mistaken, it wasn't me.

It was some other moderator if not you. I need to dig the post but Johnny is right about the moderator part of it and yes it did lend a lot of credibility to Hari's role here as I was finding his attitude unbearable too.

I found Hari's attitude offensive mostly. A lot of time I just pulled myself back from putting a comment as I didn't wanted to disturb the flow of scenario's here. But now since people are talking I would say yes. If I look back Hari has not added anything significant to this thread qualitatively.

Vivek you are a great writer. You have amazing writing capabilities. But sometimes you do leave the scenario unfinished. However thats not something I mind as much as Hari's roaming around moderating this thread.

Thats my last post/view on the subject.

bhavin · Post by **bhavin** » 22 Jan 2009 08:13

Rahul M wrote:johnny, you are mistaken, it wasn't me.

and please let's not compare tom clancy's fanciful unrealistic scenarios with vivek's.
it's a graver insult than you might imagine.

frankly, I'm yet to see the down and dirty tactical level stuff vivek writes in any other book.

It was Ramanaji who had said that earlier... Let's call this discussion to an end and let the Vivek do his 'job' and enjoy the scenarios

Singh · Post by **Singh** » 22 Jan 2009 14:53

Rahul M wrote:johnny, you are mistaken, it wasn't me.

and please let's not compare tom clancy's fanciful unrealistic scenarios with vivek's.
it's a graver insult than you might imagine.

frankly, I'm yet to see the down and dirty tactical level stuff vivek writes in any other book.

He He He well said Rahul

Tom Clancy

Anyways Vivek Saar as we've all seen you have more than enough admirer's here.
Enough of us have said this before but just wanna say it again "pls continue your posts at your own pace".
But of course try not to keep us starving for too long saar.

johnny_m · Post by **johnny_m** » 22 Jan 2009 17:56

Err. Tom Clancy may be a biased American fool writing pro American propaganda through his works. But many of his works have very well described battle scenes, and he has very good knowledge about geography and weapons employed, I was comparing that aspect of his writing with Vivek's.

Also Rahul I am sorry it was not you was some one else. Pardon me in this regard.

karadi · Post by **karadi** » 23 Jan 2009 18:10

Vivek Ji. Please post the next update.

kaRadi

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 23 Jan 2009 21:52

SASER
SOUTH OF DAULAT BEG OLDI
DAY 4 + 1030 HRS (L)

The single Smerch battery in the valley had been firing their rocket barrages at the Chinese artillery for hours now. The Chinese artillery fire on the infantry Battalions of Brigadier Adesara’s Brigade had substantially reduced as a consequence of this counter-battery fire. More than a dozen Chinese field artillery batteries were by now nothing more than smoldering and smoking remains. But for all that, the constant fire-on-the-move tactics that had prevented the Indian Smerch unit from being wiped out by Chinese counter-battery fire had also exhausted its crews and nearly emptied its stock of weapons. The dust and smoke raised by the constant moving of the firing vehicles in the valley had left a lingering smog contained by the high mountainous walls of the valley.

It was therefore not that surprising to the battery commander and his other officers standing outside the command trailer to see a column of armored vehicles moving past their CP in a long convoy. A moment in which everybody’s heart missed a beat thinking that the vehicles were Chinese units, passed by as the type of the vehicles became clear. The fear that the vehicles were Chinese were not totally unfounded. The battle in Laddakh was far from clear at the moment. Frontlines were changing by the minute and chaos was in the air. It was not outside the realms of possibility that the Chinese might reach a certain sector after having overrun the Indian defenses and surprising the Indian units before the Indian commanders reacted to the Chinese breakthrough. And the same could work the other way too.

In the case of Saser, it was a distinct possibility. Saser sat the mouth of the valley around the river than ran down to the south and turned towards Leh near Shyok. North of Saser was the DBO sector which was a vast plain cut into a northern and southern sector by the Chip-Chap River. In the northern sector of DBO, the infantry Brigade under Adesara had barely escaped being overrun. In the southern sector, being defended by the forward deployed elements of the 10TH Mechanized Regiment under Colonel Sudarshan, the battle had between the Regiment’s BMPs and the Chinese ZBDs had been bloody and desperate, both sides having taken severe casualties.

In addition, the Chinese had pushed Colonel’s Sudarshan’s surviving vehicles to the northwest and close to the Chip-Chap River. In fact, as it currently stood, the Indian defences in the region around DBO airstrip were one push away from the airbase perimeter with the Infantry Battalions under Adesara in the region around the Citadel and to the north and Sudarshan’s remaining NAMICA and BMP-II vehicles holding the southern approaches. The Chinese pushing Sudarshan’s units to the northwest had opened the southwest approaches towards Saser for the Chinese fast moving ZBDs to exploit if the Chinese commander could spot the opportunity, that is.

As it was, the Chinese commanders were unsure of what defences currently lay between their current positions opposite Sudarshan and to the south near Saser. And in fact, all it would take is one UAV recon to see that in fact there were only two or three companies of Indian infantry currently holding the approaches to Saser and the crucial Shyok river valley to the south. Once the Chinese realized this, they would unleash a wave of fast moving light armoured vehicles on these infantry units to open up the way to victory in Laddakh. And after that happened, one of the first units to be overrun would be the Smerch battery around Saser that was providing the crucial artillery support to Brigadier Adesara.

The Indian commanders knew the danger that had opened up after the battles near DBO since morning. They were providing all the air support needed to attack Chinese armour, but it was something that would begin inflicting losses on the Indian Jaguar fleet just as soon as the Chinese anti-air units were fully deployed around their armour. The only other thing that could prevent the Chinese from taking over Saser was the remaining force of the 10TH Mechanized Regiment that was currently making its way under light artillery fire from the Chinese towards the DBO area of operations...

As the battery commander and the other officers around the command trailers watched, the line of dozens of BMP-IIs and NAMICA vehicles, ARVs, trucks and AXEs rolled by on the road north through Saser through the dust cloud being raised by their tracks and wheels. As the main force of the 10TH Mechanized finally began entering the plains of DBO, the battle for Laddakh hung by a thin thread...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Jan 2009 22:07

iirc tom clancy's military details are really the work of larry bond. tom sir is not averse to consulting with experts like these for the meat of his stories. the famous multi-squadron backfire attack on the franco-US CVBG in red storm rising surely came from him.

tom sir wraps some passable and some plain naive politics around this military core. where the core is heavy like red october or red storm rising it is quite good.

Yogesh · Post by **Yogesh** » 24 Jan 2009 01:09

Hey Vivek this is doing good

pardon me folks (slightly of the topic), what do you do other than posting on BRF (just my personal curiosity

)