Understanding Sikh History-1

[SBajwa]

Sure Ramana!!


In an ancient indian tradition When you take some knowledgeable to be your guru you drink the "Charan Amrit" or "Charanamat" or "Charan Pahul"

Guru Gobind Singh reflected on this tradition., many non-sikhs who would take Guru Nanak as their Guru tend to drink the water that has touched the feet of their guru (Guru Nanak use to touch the toe of his right feet to the drinkable water which all people who want to become his Sikhs would drink). This tradition was continued till Guru Gobind Singh who did this

1. Reflected on the Sayings of Sri Guru Nanak Dev "Panch Pravaan Panch Pradhaan Panche Paave Darghe Maan" from JapuJi sahib.

i.e. Guru Nanak says that there are "Five Elements of life, Five Panch of a panchayat, Five elements of Senses, and thus number five in an Indian sense is holy. Even Vedas start out with first describing the five elements of life.

2. So Guru Gobind Singh reflected on Guru Nanak's saying created a democractic system of "Five". He declared that from now on people will drink "Khanda Baate da Pahul" i.e. "Water that has been stirred with a sword" instead of "Charan Amrit" and will follow five symbols that represent the essence of Sikhi as described by Guru Nanak Dev ji.

3. Five symbols remind Khalsa to be towards five virtues "Sat Santokh Sabr Daya and Dharam" and to be away from five vices "Kam krodh lobh moh hankaar".

4. And he declared that Khalsa must create a Panchayat of five elected people as it has been ancient law of the land and that panchayat will pick a head among themselves., the first five Khalsa who were declared "Punj Piara" by Guru Gobind Singh thus became the the supreme authority even surpassing Guru Gobind Singh according to his own declaration. Then he asked the panchayat to order him (Guru Gobind Singh) to take the Pahul, which they did and he took. That is why there is a saying that "Wah Wah Gobind singh Aape Guru Chela" i.e. "Guru Gobind Singh is amazing, he is a Guru as well as a Disciple"

5. Then in each period the successive Khalsa at "Sarbatt Khalsa" conventions (Sarbatt Khalsa means all Khalsa), elected five Punj Piara and they elected one person who become "Jathedar of Akal Takht". These days these Khalsa elections have been hijacked by Amrinder Singh or Badal.

IMHO, The biggest problem as we face in India today is that our Panchayats, which is the ancient law of our land do not have power while we are trying to govern ourselves with imported law from Britain.

[surinder]

Ramanna:
That is gracious of you. There is a lot to say and I have felt a curiousity and need to hear it. Our Indian history (both Sikh history & Hindu history) must be told and re-told. It must become second nature for us to know this history. That is our surest bet to preserve and grow.

Vikas Raina & Others:

There are some interesting questions you raise. I will try to answer it tonight (hopefully).

[shiv]

up

[SBajwa]

Guru Gobind Singh himself in one of his poems (Braj Bhasha) says

"Hum eih Kaaj Jagat mein aaye"
The reason that I came into this world is Dharama"

"Dharam Haet Gurdev Pathayae"
I became Guru for the sake of Dharama

[Arun_S]

Guru Gobind Singh himself in one of his poems (Braj Bhasha) says

"Hum eih Kaaj Jagat mein aaye"
The reason that I came into this world is Dharama"

"Dharam Haet Gurdev Pathayae"
I became Guru for the sake of Dharama

SBajwa-ji: here is my version of translation with little correction:

• "Hum eih Kaaj Jagat mein aaye"
  I came to this word for this purpose { eih - this/one, Kaaj - purpose/mission}
  
  "Dharam Haet Gurdev Pathayae"
  Guru-dev sent me (to this world) for Dharam (to serve/protect). {Pathayae - sent, Haet - Sanskrit root 'Hit' / "Hytu" or interest/purpose}

Jai Gurudev.

[surinder]

Arun_S, Your translations is correct.

A good site of the translation is:
http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&p=138


हम इह काज जगत मो आए ॥ धरम हेत गुरदेवि पठाए ॥
I have been sent into this world by the Preceptor-Lord to propagate Dharma (righteousness).

Guru Gobind Singh Ji is referring to God almight as Gurudev. Earliner in the same composition he says something similar (using the word "pathayo"):

इह कारनि प्रभ मोहि पठायो ॥ तब मै जगति जनम धरि आयो ॥
For this reason the Lord sent me and I was born in this world.

And even earlier he writes:

तिन प्रभ जब आइस मुहि दीआ ॥ तब हम जनम कलू महि लीआ ॥४॥
When the Lord ordered me, I was born in this Iron age.4.
चित न भयो हमरो आवन कहि ॥ चुभी रही स्रुति प्रभु चरनन महि ॥
I had no desire to come, because I was totally absorbed in devotion for the Holy feet of the Lord.
जिउ तिउ प्रभ हम को समझायो ॥ इम किह कै इह लोकि पठायो ॥५॥
But the Lord made me understand His Will and sent me in this world with the following words.5.



While searchign someting interesting caught my eye on the same site: Guru ji talks of Mohammad:

महादीन तब प्रभ उपराजा ॥ अरब देस को कीनो राजा ॥२६॥
Then I created Muhammed, who was made the master of Arabia.26.
तिन भी एक पंथ उपराजा ॥ लिंग बिना कीने सभ राजा ॥
He started a religion and circumcised all the kings.

[ramana]

I would like to know more about Punjab at the time of Guru Nanak. And his persona- who was he, what drove him, what are his ideals?

Thanks, ramana

[surinder]

I wanted add one more thing: The language used by Guru ji in the above lines is pure Braj Bhasha, khari boli. It is identical to how people from Eastern UP, Bihar, Balia speak. Those who have grown up in that area will recognize this language and expressions.

(This compositon is called Bahittra Natak (Vichitr Nakak) where he tells his story.)

Guru Gobind Singh was a born in Patna, and wrote most of his compositions in this beautiful language. He probably spoke this language more naturally.

[SBajwa]

From my understanding of Sri Guru Nanak dev ji's composition. I can make him out to be

1. Very naturalist who loved nature.
2. Inquisitive who loved to travel to know/learn.
3. Compassionate, full of passion.

The biggest event that happened during the times of Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji was the attack by Babar.

Zahir-ud-Din Muhammad Babar, driven out of his ancestral principality of Farghana in Central Asia, occupied Kabul in 1504. Having failed in his repeated attempts to reconquer the lost territory and unable to expand his new possessions in the direction of Khurasan in the west (which had once formed part of his grandfather's dominions), he turned his eyes towards India in the east. After an exploratory expedition undertaken as early as January-May 1505, he came down better equipped in 1519 when he advanced as far as Peshawar.

The following year he crossed the Indus and conquering Sialkot without resistance, marched on Saidpur (now Eminabad, 15 km southeast of Gujranwala in Pakistan), Emibabad is in the district of Virkgarh(Shaikhupura) and its neighbouring village was "Rae Bhoe di Talwandi" where Guru Nanak Dev ji was born.

This town (Eminabad) suffered the worst fury of the invading host. The town was taken by assault, the garrison put to the sword and the inhabitants carried into captivity. During his next invasion in 1524, Babar ransacked Lahore. His final invasion was launched during the winter of 152526 and he became master of Delhi after his victory at Panipat on 21 April 1526.

Guru Nanak was an eye witness to the havoc created during these invasions. Janam Sakhis mention that he himself was taken captive at Saidpur. A line of his, outside of Babarvani hymns, indicates that he may have been present in Lahore when the city was given up to plunder. In six pithy words this line conveys, "For a pahar and a quarter, i.e. for nearly four hours, the city of Lahore remained subject to death and fury" (GG, 1412). The mention in one of the Babarvani hymns of the use of guns by the Mughals against the Afghan defence relying mainly upon their war elephants may well be a reference to the historic battle of Panipat which sealed the fate of the Afghan king, Ibrahim Lodhi.

Babarvani hymns are not a narrative of historical events like Guru Gobind Singh's Bachitra Natak, nor are they an indictment of Babar as his Zafarnamah was that of Aurangzeb. They are the outpourings of a compassionate soul touched by scenes of human misery and by the cruelty perpetrated by the invaders. The sufferings of the people are rendered here in accents of intense power and protest.

The events are placed in the larger social and historical perspective. Decline in moral standards must lead to chaos. A corrupt political system must end in dissolution. Lure of power divides men and violence unresisted tends to flourish. It could not be wished away by magic or sorcery. Guru Nanak reiterated his faith in the Almighty and in His justice. Yet so acute was his realization of the distress of the people that he could not resist making the complaint: "When there was such suffering, such killing, such shrieking in pain, did not Thou, 0 God, feel pity? Creator, Thou art the same for all!"

The people for him were the people as a whole, the Hindus and the Muslims, the high caste and the low caste, soldiers and civilians, men and women. These hymns are remarkable for their moral structure and poetical eloquence. Nowhere else in contemporary literature are the issues in medieval Indian situation comprehended with such clarity or presented in tones of greater urgency.

[ShivHari]

I used to go to Darbar Sahib (Golden temple) every day in my childhood. One day, I heard a devotee saying that there is some wording about Muhammad and Christ in Guru Granth sahib which is something like that " jab ayega Bisa (probable 20th century ?), kya rahega Muhammad kya rahega Isa". I do not remember what was the exact wording, that devotee was refering to. Does any one know?

[Arun_S]

I wanted add one more thing: The language used by Guru ji in the above lines is pure Braj Bhasha, khari boli. It is identical to how people from Eastern UP, Bihar, Balia speak. Those who have grown up in that area will recognize this language and expressions.

I was born in a village that is in heart of "Khadi Boli" region in "Do-aab" (region between the two rivers Ganga and Jamuna). Makes me a little special

[Arun_S]

महादीन तब प्रभ उपराजा ॥ अरब देस को कीनो राजा ॥२६॥
Then I created Muhammed, who was made the master of Arabia.26.
तिन भी एक पंथ उपराजा ॥ लिंग बिना कीने सभ राजा ॥
He started a religion and circumcised all the kings.

Correction:
"लिंग बिना" means castrated not circumcised. Meaning he started a religion and made impotent (defeated) all the Arab kings.

[Keshav]

"लिंग बिना" means castrated not circumcised. Meaning he started a religion and made impotent (defeated) all the Arab kings.

Is that a compliment or an insult?

[shyam]

महादीन तब प्रभ उपराजा ॥ अरब देस को कीनो राजा ॥२६॥
Then I created Muhammed, who was made the master of Arabia.26.
तिन भी एक पंथ उपराजा ॥ लिंग बिना कीने सभ राजा ॥
He started a religion and circumcised all the kings.

Correction:
"लिंग बिना" means castrated not circumcised. Meaning he started a religion and made impotent (defeated) all the Arab kings.

If Guru says he created Muhammed, how can Mohammed's followers kill Guru's followers?

[SBajwa]

The correct translation will be that
God Created Mohammad which started a new panth i.e. "Islam"

Guru Gobind Himself says in the same poem as above

Jo hamko parmeswar kahe he, naraq kund mein vo parhe

i.e. whomever calls me parmeseswar (God) will suffer in pain and agony. so Guru Gobind Singh didn't created mohammad, God Created mohammad just like God creates all living Things.

Nanak says god is One Omkar., timeless, genderles, whose name is truth, who creates the life, and is without fear, and is without enemies, the whole world/universe is God's face, god never dies, and only way to get this knowledge is to submit to your Guru, with full devotion., Nanak says that this was true in the past, will remain true and will be true in all future.

[Kakkaji]

Arun_S, Your translations is correct.

A good site of the translation is:
http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&p=138

I didn't know that so much of Gurubani is in Braj Bhasha.

If only more copies can be printed in Devnagari instead of Gurumukhi, it could be distributed to, and understood by, a much wider audience. Look how the Bible is printed in hundreds of languages and distributed around the world.

Specifically, in the web page that Surinder's link leads to, I am struck by the similarity in concept to Lord Krishna's words in the Bhagvad Gita:

Paritranay Saadhunaam, Vinashaay cha dushkritaam,
Dharmsamsthapanarthay, Sambhavaami Yugey Yugey.

Perhaps Guru Gobind Singhji was an avataar of Lord Krishna for this age. Like Lord Krishna, he also made those who were reluctant and mentally defeated, to rise up and fight against tyranny.

[SBajwa]

I didn't know that so much of Gurubani is in Braj Bhasha

There are two books Adi Granth and Dasam Granth

Adi Granth was compiled by first five gurus and the ninth Guru.

Dasam Granth was compiled by Guru Gobind Singh himself.

Guru Gobind Singh made Adi Granth as "11 th and last Guru" .

So Dasam Granth is all of the work of Guru Gobind Singh., which he left as his own source.

He spent his life in making copies of Guru Granth and not Dasam Granth., Baba Deep Singh (who later attained martyrdom figthing Abdali at Golde Temple) was tasked to do nothing else but print copies of Adi Granth and distribute them all over.

thus we have hundreds of thousands of coipes of Adi Granth while few copies of Dasam Granth.

Dasam Granth which was compiled by Guru Gobind Singh (as well as 52 poets that he kept with him at Anandpur) and after his martyrdom at NAnded, more work was added by Bhai Nand lal(Arabic and Farsi) and others.

So Dasam Granth is book in BRaj Bhasha, Sanskrit, Punjabi, Farsi, etc.

[Kakkaji]

thus we have hundreds of thousands of coipes of Adi Granth while few copies of Dasam Granth.

Dasam Granth which was compiled by Guru Gobind Singh (as well as 52 poets that he kept with him at Anandpur) and after his martyrdom at NAnded, more work was added by Bhai Nand lal(Arabic and Farsi) and others.

So Dasam Granth is book in BRaj Bhasha, Sanskrit, Punjabi, Farsi, etc.

I would suggest make thousands of copies of Dasam Granth in Devnagri and distribute them all over North India outside Punjab. Give them to people who come to eat free at Langars in Gurdwaras.

Here in the US, you cannot stay in a hotel room without finding a copy of the Bible.

We need to learn the techniques of advertising from Christians.

[Prem]

SGPC dont have time to print the Granth . They are busy purchasing Rajasthani Marble while loosing their own .
The initiative has to come from different Dharmic section.

[surinder]

ShivHari:

The line you give is interesting. I have never ecountered it in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. While I cannot say with cent percent authority, I sincerely doubt it is there. In the entire Sikh literature by the Gurus & their companions you find very little (if any) reference to Muhammad Sahib. I was surprised when I read those lines about "Mahadeen" so I decided to post them here. In fact given the nature of long-standing conflict with Islaam, it is perhaps very surprising that there is this complete ignoring of Muhammad, Isa, and other prophets. But Guru have been very very liberal in quoting inspiring stories of Hindu history like: Raam Ji, Sri Krishna ji, Dhruv, Prahlad, Raja Janak Ji, Narad Ji, Gajendra, Ganika, Sudama, Ajamal etc.

Regards.

[surinder]

Arun_S:

I was born in a village that is in heart of "Khadi Boli" region in "Do-aab" (region between the two rivers Ganga and Jamuna). Makes me a little special

"Do-Aabi" !!!

[surinder]

महादीन तब प्रभ उपराजा ॥ अरब देस को कीनो राजा ॥२६॥
Then I created Muhammed, who was made the master of Arabia.26.
तिन भी एक पंथ उपराजा ॥ लिंग बिना कीने सभ राजा ॥
He started a religion and circumcised all the kings.

Correction:
"लिंग बिना" means castrated not circumcised. Meaning he started a religion and made impotent (defeated) all the Arab kings.

You know what, you are correct. The translator is being kind ... maybe more kind than he/she needs to be. That is exactly what the mahadeen did, isn't it?

Just one more reference point. It will support Arun_S 's point further. I had once some to the effect of (I kid you not), "something something nahi Lund Kataye". (It was there in the book Amrit Kirtan, if some one wants to search.)

These exceptions notwithstanding, Sikh Gurus have been remarkably quiet about islaam, even though there was a long conflict with Islaam where 3 Guru's fought actual wars, 2 Gurus were killed & tortured by Mughals directly, and 1 Guru assasinated indirectly by them (not counting lakhs of others killed, tortured).

[surinder]

If Guru says he created Muhammed, how can Mohammed's followers kill Guru's followers?

Shyam,

Guru jis not saying that. If you read the entire poem, he referring and talking about what God himself is saying and doing and observing. "I == God".

[surinder]

I didn't know that so much of Gurubani is in Braj Bhasha.

If only more copies can be printed in Devnagari instead of Gurumukhi, it could be distributed to, and understood by, a much wider audience. Look how the Bible is printed in hundreds of languages and distributed around the world.

Specifically, in the web page that Surinder's link leads to, I am struck by the similarity in concept to Lord Krishna's words in the Bhagvad Gita:

Paritranay Saadhunaam, Vinashaay cha dushkritaam,
Dharmsamsthapanarthay, Sambhavaami Yugey Yugey.

Perhaps Guru Gobind Singhji was an avataar of Lord Krishna for this age. Like Lord Krishna, he also made those who were reluctant and mentally defeated, to rise up and fight against tyranny.

Kakka Ji,

While there are many languages used in Gurbani, but if we were to ask ourselves what is that ONE language I can learn to get the maximum understanding of Gurbani? The answer to that would be Hindi, not Punjabi. That is something most Sikhs themselves don't realize. Not to confuse the issue, there is Punjabi, Marathi, Sanskrit, etc. in the Guru Granth Sahib, but majority of it is closest to current Hindi than anything. If you read writings by 9th Guru Ji, that is explicitly clearly Hindi (even the examples are prominently from Ganika, Gajendra, & Ajamal).

As aside: it is surprising that given how Hindi-oriented Sikh scriptures are, Sikhi has not spread too much in Hindi heartland of UP or Bihar. This may be a failure of the Sikhs themselves.

If only more copies can be printed in Devnagari instead of Gurumukhi, it could be distributed to, and understood by, a much wider audience.

Actually it already exists and is fairly easily available. I personally read Devnagiri predominatly (my gurumukhi is really weak). I have copies of Guru Granth Sahib Ji in Devnagiri, along with translation in common Hindi. It is published by the Bhuvan Vani Trust, Sitapur Road, Lucknow. In fact it was purchased from there by a friend of my dad who was a Brahmin from Balia. He had a copy of the holy Granth Sahib at his house and insisted to buy one for me too. He had the Dasham Granth (the one by Guru Gobind Singh ji) and used to read it and tell my father excitedly that this is his language. That is how I discovered the link. It made sense because Guru Gobind Singh Ji was born & raised in Patna. That is what he would speak, naturally.

But coming back, you should be able to go to any major book store and get a Hindi copy of both the Granths easily. My wife got another copy in Hindi from a Changigarh book store. Or they may be able to order it quite easily.




Perhaps Guru Gobind Singhji was an avataar of Lord Krishna for this age. Like Lord Krishna, he also made those who were reluctant and mentally defeated, to rise up and fight against tyranny.

There are many similarities in the manner & approach of Sri Krishna & Guru ji. Both were Kshatriyas. Both were great sprititually, but kept arms with them. Both were great warriors and slew many paapis. Both were annihilators of inustice and tyrannies. For both of them war was not a first option, both strove immensely to avoid it. Guru Ji was eager to stop war, if the Mughals would stop injustice; Sri Krishna Ji asked the Kauravas in last ditch effort to just give 5 villages to the once great Pandavas, all in an effort to avoid war. Both, after exhausting all means secure justice, were not hisitant to take to war, fully and unapologetically. When the time of war came, they fought with vigor and gusto and secured great victories. (Guru Ji and other Sikh Gurus have written about Sri Krishna. In the Dasham Granth there is description of wars of and charitra of Sri Krishan.)

But He Guru Gobind Singh was not an avatar of Sri Krishna. In his autobiographical work (Bachitra Natak) Sri Gobind Singh describes his previous births. He tells us that he was an incarnaton called Dusht Daman (Killers of Bad People). He tells us how he came to exist in his previous birth, and how he fought wars for Dharma. Then he was asked to go and meditate in what is now Hemkund in Uttaranchal mountains. I think if you search that link I gave a while back will have more details.

[surinder]

I would suggest make thousands of copies of Dasam Granth in Devnagri and distribute them all over North India outside Punjab. Give them to people who come to eat free at Langars in Gurdwaras.

Here in the US, you cannot stay in a hotel room without finding a copy of the Bible.

We need to learn the techniques of advertising from Christians.

I have often thought of that. Not just Guru Granth Sahib Ji, but also Geeta & Vishnu Puran, etc. But in India we respect our scriptures too much. We will not place it in a dirty place, or touch it with unwashed hands. We take utmost care to keep scriptures in high respect. This prevents us from putting it in motel rooms.

[surinder]

Is it really true that Guruji believed he was in the lineage of Lava and Kush (through Guru Nanak)?

That is true.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji writes the following:

Sri Ram Chandra Ji had two sons: Luv & Kush. Luv established Lahore, Kush established Kasur. (Both cities are alive cities and have now gone to Pakistan.) The descendents of Luv and Kush formed two separate clans. Descendents of Luv were defeated by descendents of Kush. They took over Lahore. The Kush descendents went to Banaras & began studying the Vedas. They began being called Bedi (the last name of Guru Nanak). The victors of Lahore, the Luv-descendents, were now called Sodi (after someone called Sodi Rai in their family). They became the ancestors of Guru Gobind Singh (who's last name, if used it, would be Sodi). The Sodis felt remorse for taking the kingdom, so they invited the Bedis to come to Lahore and recite the Vedas. They did so. As the Vedas were recited one by one, the Sodis developed feelings of renunciation. They decided to give up the world and retire to forests & give the throne of Lahore to Bedis back. Bedis were also touched and promised that in the future (Kali Yug) the Bedis would return the favor. So the Bedis, in Guru Nanak's form, gave Guru ship to the Sodis (last 7 Gurus).

Note Added later: If you have the patience to read it, the autobiographical account is detailed starting at the following page:

http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&p=115

[Anujan]

As an aside, the best panorama of Harmandir Sahib that I have ever seen is Here. Be sure to click on the thumbnails in the bottom to get a zoomed up view

[sanjaykumar]

So the kinship of Hindu/Sikh is like lips to teeth (to use an Arab expression). Did not realise just how deep this business goes.

[surinder]

The expression used in Punjab is similar. I forget the exact expression, it goes something like that Hindus & Sikhs are like the relationship of flesh and nails. It is not for nothing that many Hindu families (Even today) raise one son (usually eldest one) as a Sikh. I know countless such families. Many Hindus I know fulfull all their spritual needs by going to the Gurudwaras.

[surinder]

Vikas Raina,
I still owe an answer to you. Perhaps in a few days.

[Satya_anveshi]

This thread has been most educative and a tribute and celebration of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji's birthday. SBajwa, surinder et al - thank you for providing such nice glimpses of history and making us "feel" it.

[surinder]

The Raghuvanshi link of Guru Nanak & Guru Gobind Singh has been misinterpreted & ill-characterized by some, both Sikhs & Hindus. What I am writing comes straight from the writings of the 10th master himself.

I once told a Sikh that our Gurus are descended from Sri Ram, through Luv & Kush. He immediately retorted, "Oh, that must be RSS propadanga." I said, "No, not RSS. It is written by Guru Ji himself." The Silence following that was priceless.

[munna]

The expression used in Punjab is similar. I forget the exact expression, it goes something like that Hindus & Sikhs are like the relationship of flesh and nails.

Nohaan naalon maas nai vakh hunda!

(You can't separate nails from the flesh). Carry on Surinder and Bajwa bai jee (guess I am not a doabia after all ).

[Prem]

If Guru says he created Muhammed, how can Mohammed's followers kill Guru's followers?

Shyam,Guru jis not saying that. If you read the entire poem, he referring and talking about what God himself is saying and doing and observing. "I == God".

Muhamad got lucky but spritually unable to sustain the higher consciousness and exceeded his brief and mentally fell below naval satisfying gross physical needs. Gurbani mentions many holy figures but Muhamad naam hardly appear and that too in not so favourable way.

[Keshav]

Sorry if this sounds blasphemous, but on this page (and others previous, but after the link you provided), Guruji talks about a multiplicity of Gods (including Shiva).

I thought Sikhs were monotheists?

ਤੇਗ ਬਹਾਦਰ ਕੇ ਚਲਤ ਭਯੋ ਜਗਤ ਕੋ ਸੋਕ ॥
तेग बहादर के चलत भयो जगत को सोक ॥
The whole world bemoaned the departure of Tegh Bahadur.

ਹੈ ਹੈ ਹੈ ਸਭ ਜਗ ਭਯੋ ਜੈ ਜੈ ਜੈ ਸੁਰ ਲੋਕਿ ॥੧੬॥
है है है सभ जग भयो जै जै जै सुर लोकि ॥१६॥
While the world lamented, the gods hailed his arrival in heavens.16.

[Prem]

Keshav
IMHO
Sur Lok is Divine Lok and not necessary Devtas but abode of many Rishis etc also.
Guru mentioned worship "Pooja Parbrahm Ki" only. The acknowledgement of other lower divine beings below High Parbrahm dont necessary translate as act of worship. These beings bless and rejoice in good deeds and are always working under the command of Supreme.

[Keshav]

Keshav
IMHO
Sur Lok is Divine Lok and not necessary Devtas but abode of many Rishis etc also.
Guru mentioned worship "Pooja Parbrahm Ki" only. The acknowledgement of other lower divine beings below High Parbrahm dont necessary translate as act of worship. These beings bless and rejoice in good deeds and are always working under the command of Supreme.

So our Hindu Devas are considered "angels" of the Sikh Parabrahaman?

Isn't Parabrahaman a word that lots of Hindu scriptures use to describe God (Krishna, Shiva, etc.)?

[Prem]

Keshav
IMHO
Sur Lok is Divine Lok and not necessary Devtas but abode of many Rishis etc also.
Guru mentioned worship "Pooja Parbrahm Ki" only. The acknowledgement of other lower divine beings below High Parbrahm dont necessary translate as act of worship. These beings bless and rejoice in good deeds and are always working under the command of Supreme.

So our Hindu Devas are considered "angels" of the Sikh Parabrahaman?

Isn't Parabrahaman a word that lots of Hindu scriptures use to describe God (Krishna, Shiva, etc.)?

Even Sikhs have Brahm Gyanis and Brahm Gyanis are considered AAP Parmeshwar.
I belive Parbrahm is reference to Universal Supreme Godhood and it cannot be limited to any narow Indian Dharmic section. My understanding is Indic spiritual and philosphical teachings always transcend sectual boundaries and freely use and mingle with others. To my limited knowledge , Vedantic definition of Parbrahm differentiate with the Avataric understanding regarding Lord Krishan or Ram.

[surinder]

सुर लोकि is merely heaven (or one of the heavens). Prem's already explained that, I suppose. But of course there can be entities between the Parbraham and humans. Their existence is not denied.

Talking more about that would lead us into discussion of theology and sprituality and religion. I have tried to talk about religion (Sikh religion) in mostly social, geniological, & national terms here, shying away deeper discussion of spirituality.

Yes, in Hindu scriptures, Par Braham is often used by the advaitis & by those who wish to refer to God's nirakaar nirgun roop (attributeless). it is actually their favorite name for God. Par Braham would not be Ram, Krishna etc. (Sikh scriptures use the word too.)

[surinder]

Nohaan naalon maas nai vakh hunda!

(You can't separate nails from the flesh). Carry on Surinder and Bajwa bai jee (guess I am not a doabia after all ).

Munna, Thanks. That is what I looking for. Note the subtelity of the expression. Nohaan = nails, scratched the face of tyranny. Maas=flesh, sustained & grew those nails.


Well, if you live between the daryas of Colorado & Missisippi, you are a doabia.