India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

[Vikram_S]

Even HAL does not seem to have much confidence in the abilities of DRDO

HAL, not DRDO, will lead design of new aircraft
by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard: 5th March 08

let us not fool ourself here. HAL is simply afraid DRDO will take away high money involvement fighter design space from HAL. while LCA is intended from day 1 to have highest possible local item, HAL in past, is usually resorting to putting together variety of DRDO and foreign item into aircraft. simple fact is HAL leadership did not focus on R&D, on other hand DRDO is basically research organization which is not into money but indigenous manufacture. HAL in old day was also ok with making imported item in india and making sure it got money from GOI.

What is the exact role the L&T intends to play with this major research facility.

Is it to mfg protoypes and design and test the mfg process needed. Once they are validated transfer it to the OFB for mass production. Is it something on those lines?

there are 3 level of work done in R&D, one is to develop basic technology, second level is to make production prototype and transfer TOT, final stage is to make production item (it is also called mass manufacture stage) which also require R&D from manufacturing agency

L&T (see recent statement of annual reports) is one of key partner of DRDO, then it also require R&D investment from own side to get TOT from DRDO and make it production ready and also develop other uses. successful partner of DRDO are doing this same method.
OFB is not able to meet entire indian weapon needs and investment in R&D is also very low if compared to international standard of IMI.

[chetak]

Even HAL does not seem to have much confidence in the abilities of DRDO

HAL, not DRDO, will lead design of new aircraft
by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard: 5th March 08

let us not fool ourself here. HAL is simply afraid DRDO will take away high money involvement fighter design space from HAL. while LCA is intended from day 1 to have highest possible local item, HAL in past, is usually resorting to putting together variety of DRDO and foreign item into aircraft. simple fact is HAL leadership did not focus on R&D, on other hand DRDO is basically research organization which is not into money but indigenous manufacture. HAL in old day was also ok with making imported item in india and making sure it got money from GOI.

What is the exact role the L&T intends to play with this major research facility.

Is it to mfg protoypes and design and test the mfg process needed. Once they are validated transfer it to the OFB for mass production. Is it something on those lines?

there are 3 level of work done in R&D, one is to develop basic technology, second level is to make production prototype and transfer TOT, final stage is to make production item (it is also called mass manufacture stage) which also require R&D from manufacturing agency

L&T (see recent statement of annual reports) is one of key partner of DRDO, then it also require R&D investment from own side to get TOT from DRDO and make it production ready and also develop other uses. successful partner of DRDO are doing this same method.
OFB is not able to meet entire indian weapon needs and investment in R&D is also very low if compared to international standard of IMI.

Vikram_S ji,

The majority opinion in the country, be it PSU, Armed Forces or knowledgeable journalists does not support your oft belabored POV.
The problem in DRDO is in the management, policies and attitude.
If only they stuck to their frequently proclaimed vision statement and delivered a mere 10% of what they promised no one would have a cause for complaint. DRDO blames everyone else but themselves. Not possible to fool all the people all the time.
The armed forces use antiquated equipment and suffer high casualties because almost everything they need to do their jobs, the DRDO says don't import we will develop and give by today evening evening itself.
Nag taking 20 years???
Still in user trials?
I know that you will blame the Army for the long trials. I cannot but admire the Army for having the patience to carry on with the bloody trials for this long.
It certainly helps to have such stupid customers.
Every DRDO project bar a few suffer from this result.
For you every body else is wrong but only the DRDO is right?
I know of some projects where the DRDO was very forcefully asked to keep out and because they were kept out the job was completed very much on schedule.

When driving, if you only see traffic coming in the opposite direction, you are driving the wrong way down a one way street.

DRDO is in imminent danger of losing credibility and relevance.

[sudeepj]

The armed forces use antiquated equipment and suffer high casualties because almost everything they need to do their jobs, the DRDO says don't import we will develop and give by today evening evening itself.

Casualties are regrettable, but which imported weapon system would let the Indian armed forces achieve the larger political goals of the Indian Govt.?

Please elaborate how shiny new imported Tanks, Arty, Ships, Missiles etc. will help you achieve victory over Pakistani terrorism and Chinese hegemony.

[KiranM]

The armed forces use antiquated equipment and suffer high casualties because almost everything they need to do their jobs, the DRDO says don't import we will develop and give by today evening evening itself.

Chetak ji, can you elaborate or give examples with respect to the quote? I am aware of DRDO vetoing Barak purchase by IN to push Trishul. But any such instances which resulted in harm/ casualties?

[chetak]

The armed forces use antiquated equipment and suffer high casualties because almost everything they need to do their jobs, the DRDO says don't import we will develop and give by today evening evening itself.

Casualties are regrettable, but which imported weapon system would let the Indian armed forces achieve the larger political goals of the Indian Govt.?

Please elaborate how shiny new imported Tanks, Arty, Ships, Missiles etc. will help you achieve victory over Pakistani terrorism and Chinese hegemony.

Friend sudeepj ji,
Lets not go down the same old road again. You question has been asked and answered a million times.
Casualities are just not "regrettable", they only happen to other people. Mostly non DRDO people.
People equally "poorly paid" who nevertheless go out there and get their butts shot off, every day!
Don't see anyone else but DRDO "Customers" taking casualities. This includes paramilitary and police.
No body gives a doodly squat about waiting for DRDO to get off its fat bloody backside and "develop" indigenous capablity which will then benefit the nation in the coming centuries.
Just get out of the way and let the faujis get what they need to fight now without putting your finger into it.
DRDO should just retreat into the shadows, develop whatever it wants and after some decades of work come back and show that whatever it has made actually works. Take as much money as you want for your projects but keep out of the way!
DRDO should not just sit on every defence import committee and roger every project by promising delivery by that same evening

Lets talk basics first. Import or urgently produce good stuff locally like

Helmets,
BPJs
Cold weather gear, not only for siachen
Sufficient night vision stuff
Thermal imaging gear
communication gear
Better assault weapons and sidearms
APCs
The pakis produce H&K MP5s locally, we have shit.
perimeter sensors
Prefab portable shelters
and other small things like these

We can get to the shiny stuff later, much later.

[chetak]

The armed forces use antiquated equipment and suffer high casualties because almost everything they need to do their jobs, the DRDO says don't import we will develop and give by today evening evening itself.

Chetak ji, can you elaborate or give examples with respect to the quote? I am aware of DRDO vetoing Barak purchase by IN to push Trishul. But any such instances which resulted in harm/ casualties?

KiranM ji,

Sorry I cannot elaborate as this is an open forum.

But many will already know what is being talked about.

[sudeepj]

Lets talk basics first. Import or urgently produce good stuff locally like

Helmets, BPJs, Cold weather gear, not only for siachen, Sufficient night vision stuff, Thermal imaging gear, communication gear, Better assault weapons and sidearms, APCs. The pakis produce H&K MP5s locally, we have shit. perimeter sensors, Prefab portable shelters and other small things like these

We can get to the shiny stuff later, much later.

Chetak, AFAIK, the Bullet proof patka used by Coin troops can actually stop AK bullets, not so for other imported maal. DRDO already makes NBC capable pre fab shelters.. INSAS is an excellent weapon, mp5 is only a close support carbine with limited applications in COIN and regular warfare.

Your concern appears to be more towards the lives lost in COIN ops, and I agree, we can do a better job of supporting the COIN troops. Having said that, its not clear to me at all whether its the DRDO veto or substandard DRDO products that's to blame for less than optimal equipment with our soldiers. You can blame DRDO for heavy BPJs, but you forget, they were developed in the 90s, hardly the 'money no object' scene India is in today. Was a requirement for lighter BPJs sent to DRDO? Did they veto a proposal to import such BPJs? Its not clear at all..

As far as the big and shiny stuff goes, Its clear to me, that no amount of imported weapon systems will allow India to achieve its political goals in its neighborhood.

For Geo Strategic goals, its not just enough to put weapons in the hands of a sentry, you also need to have the industrial complex necessary to support that weapon.

In this goal, I am not sure that DRDO has failed. Actually I think they have succeeded remarkably well..

[ajay_ijn]

Your concern appears to be more towards the lives lost in COIN ops, and I agree, we can do a better job of supporting the COIN troops. Having said that, its not clear to me at all whether its the DRDO veto or substandard DRDO products that's to blame for less than optimal equipment with our soldiers. You can blame DRDO for heavy BPJs, but you forget, they were developed in the 90s, hardly the 'money no object' scene India is in today. Was a requirement for lighter BPJs sent to DRDO? Did they veto a proposal to import such BPJs? Its not clear at all..

I never knew DRDO develops BPJs & Helmets. whenever govt talks about them, its only about importing them.

although i completely agree with chetak, there should be no compromise in providing the worlds best equipment to forces for combating terror no matter how costly or from which country we are importing from and even if it means we have to cancel or defer purchases of bigger weapons like tanks, fighters or missiles.

i just hope next year we will increase home land security budget by many times. we have a large force engaging terror in different areas besides guarding border n coast, so a large capital budget would be needed. we should actually compete with Israeli forces on modernization. even think one step like developing or funding futuristic technologies, even better than best availaible in the market instead of importing whatever best is availaible. all these should come at the fraction of whatever big budgets being assigned for fighters, warships etc.

[chetak]

Lets talk basics first. Import or urgently produce good stuff locally like

Helmets, BPJs, Cold weather gear, not only for siachen, Sufficient night vision stuff, Thermal imaging gear, communication gear, Better assault weapons and sidearms, APCs. The pakis produce H&K MP5s locally, we have shit. perimeter sensors, Prefab portable shelters and other small things like these

We can get to the shiny stuff later, much later.

Chetak, AFAIK, the Bullet proof patka used by Coin troops can actually stop AK bullets, not so for other imported maal. DRDO already makes NBC capable pre fab shelters.. INSAS is an excellent weapon, mp5 is only a close support carbine with limited applications in COIN and regular warfare.

Your concern appears to be more towards the lives lost in COIN ops, and I agree, we can do a better job of supporting the COIN troops. Having said that, its not clear to me at all whether its the DRDO veto or substandard DRDO products that's to blame for less than optimal equipment with our soldiers. You can blame DRDO for heavy BPJs, but you forget, they were developed in the 90s, hardly the 'money no object' scene India is in today. Was a requirement for lighter BPJs sent to DRDO? Did they veto a proposal to import such BPJs? Its not clear at all..

As far as the big and shiny stuff goes, Its clear to me, that no amount of imported weapon systems will allow India to achieve its political goals in its neighborhood.

For Geo Strategic goals, its not just enough to put weapons in the hands of a sentry, you also need to have the industrial complex necessary to support that weapon.

In this goal, I am not sure that DRDO has failed. Actually I think they have succeeded remarkably well..

sudeepj ji,

My post was not sufficiently clear.

I meant to say start with the small and manageable items first.
Develop customer confidence and then move upwards.

Starting with big ticket items, raising national expectations sky high and then ending with messy failure is not the way.

Blaming everyone else but never stopping to introspect seems to be DRDO's single point agenda.

The forces should be free to choose what they consider best suited for their own operations, not what some scientist thinks that they should have.

If the scientists feel so strongly, let them raise a DRDO brigade of fighting scientists and equip it with all the DRDO designed weapons, and deploy in COIN and border control. They are certainly battle hardened from all that infighting anyway!

Enough of needless bleeding by johnnies being experimented upon. There is not much difference between a DRDO veto or a substandard DRDO product. The end result is the same.

When the DRDO can take up major projects without much consultations with customers, why can it not take up lighter BPJs or whatever without being prompted? Don't they read the papers? And when was money ever a hindrance for DRDO?

I remember the first time the Naval designers built a tug.

They were so proud of their accomplishment and otherwise so full of it that they brooked no criticism.

Until one day, incognito, the chief designer landed up on board the vessel and while talking to an old salt, he casually enquired about the human engineering aspects of the ship.
The answer was revealing and it considerably altered the approach of the Naval design staff.
" Pata nahi saab, kaun chuth*** isko banaya."

As for Geo Strategic goals, do we really have any?
To have a industrial complex, its necessary to have a reasonably good product first. Good as defined by the user and not the prejudiced and motivated designer.

At the end of the day, unfortunately, survival seems to be the common aim of both the DRDO and the johnnies.

Pity.

[somnath]

Chetak,

You might be right on most of the points you raised..But I do think that the question of building a domestic military industrial complex is pretty moot. And that doesnt get built by continuiing to import weapon systems. And there hasnt been a single power of note in history that did not have a domestic military industrial complex..

About military claims of "insufficiency" of DRDO products, it kind of cuts both ways - Dr Santhanam once mentioned that the services suffered from what he described as BBC-itis (Best of Brochure Claims). Some of the DRDO projects are discussed ad inifinitum on BR - but to a layman some of the objections of the services seem pretty "excuse-germinating". Take Arjun, did the DRDO develop a heavy 60 ton tank on its own, without a GSQR? Or was it the fact the IA feared that PA is going to acquire the Abrams in the 1980s and therefore wrote out the initial specs for a heavy tank. When the Abrams did not materialise, the IA said "lets do with more of the same!" and blame DRDO for building a "heavy tank"! Going back in history, none of the marquee weapon systems got built to their reputed fame on ver I. the Isarelis made do with refurbished Centurions to start with - and the initial Merkavas were inducted despite reservations..

More knowledgebale people in BR can illuminate us on many more such projects..

The services, on the other hand, seem to sometimes take the "familiarity breeds contempt" philosophy to a different extent when it comes to Indian made stuff..I did some "enquiring" once on some of the ship building projects undertaken in India. Two years into a particular prject, the IN had not selected the turboshaft! It had also not finalised the EW package, and to top it all, the confusion (then) on the Barak meant that the shipbuilder didnt have half the specs of the ship! And this is from the IN, which is the best of the three services when it comes to patronising the domestic effort..

Lastly, about the examples you gave (BPJs, small arms etc)..I would in fact say that there should NOT be any DRDO initiative for these things.. They are easily available in the global market, sanctions proof, relatively cheap, and involve in most cases no real "streatgic" tech frontiers..On the other hand, some of the "shiny" projects as you refer them, eg, combat aircraft, missiles etc, involve breakthrough tech development..These techonolgies build a national mil industrial cmplex..

I agree on one premise - the DRDO tries to do a lot of things by itself. In this era of coopetition, it would doa lot better by getting into JVs like the Brahmos..But again, for the real high end stuff, things like hypersonic vehicles, or satellite surveillance tech, no one shares anything material...

On the other hand, the services need to be clear on what they want - very often the services induct a system and then figure out how it fits into their ooperational doctrine (I am not saying this, people like Adm Prakash have said this publicly many times)...And they need to sometimes "invest" in a system even if its not a 100% - the IAF order forr 2 Akash regiments is a small example...They need to show at least the same tolerance for the Indian system that they show soemtimes for the foreign stuff - how many years were the Talwars delayed by? And did the IN ever do an investigation on the mysterious death of the officer who refused to sign up for its induction befroe the glitches were sorted out?

[sudeepj]

I meant to say start with the small and manageable items first.
Develop customer confidence and then move upwards.

Chetak Ji

This was how DRDO was working, when periodic reviews indicated that DRDO was spreading itself too thin and a political decision was taken for DRDO to concentrate on strategic items and those technologies that were (then) denied to India.

I dont have references handy to point them out to you, but I believe this was around when Rajiv Gandhi was PM and Arun Singh (?) was minister of state for defense.

Starting with big ticket items, raising national expectations sky high and then ending with messy failure is not the way.

Please define failure. If necessary, go into specifics of big ticket programs (not items) like Arjun, LCA, missiles etc.

In my books, failure of an item to be inducted in the armed forces means that a project has not met all of its goals, whether it has met substantial goals or not is a matter that is specific to each item under consideration.

In each case, you will realize that while some items have not been inducted into the armed forces, its only because they have a ready option of going for foreign maal.. If this maal is withdrawn from India, because Indian goals are not aligned with those of the powers that sell those items to us, courtesy DRDO, we would still have a usable tank available. Same with an (underpowered?) LCA.

Another thing to consider is, many weapon systems become available to us, only when they have already been developed indigenously. Read the frontline link above detailing how specific magnesium alloys became available to us once DRDO developed them indigenously.

Blaming everyone else but never stopping to introspect seems to be DRDO's single point agenda.

If DRDO is doing any blaming, I am yet to hear it. They have complained about Arjun and its well justified, IMO. Same with Akash, when IAF says you havent demostrated low level intercept capability, they had a very good reason - an exacerbated multipath problem does not allow low level intercepts over the sea and they would demonstrate it on land.

The forces should be free to choose what they consider best suited for their own operations, not what some scientist thinks that they should have.

Its a political decision, not up to Generals and Colonels and for good reason.

If the scientists feel so strongly, let them raise a DRDO brigade of fighting scientists and equip it with all the DRDO designed weapons, and deploy in COIN and border control. They are certainly battle hardened from all that infighting anyway!

Thats ridiculous. Since you feel so strongly about defense related R&D, why dont you pitch yourself into research? Please dont belittle our scientists like this. They started developing missiles, aircrafts and tanks in 1980s. At that time, we made 3 types of cars (fiat, 118NE & ambassador) all knock offs of obsolete foreign stuff, 3 types of motorcycles (Rajdoot, Yezdi & bullet - once again, all knock offs), 3 types of scooters (Bajaj, LML & Vespa - all knockoffs of different Vespa models)..

From this kind of an industrial base, they set off to make these big ticket items.. Tanks, fighter planes, submarines, missiles - and they have reached their goals substantially.

Enough of needless bleeding by johnnies being experimented upon. There is not much difference between a DRDO veto or a substandard DRDO product. The end result is the same.

When the DRDO can take up major projects without much consultations with customers, why can it not take up lighter BPJs or whatever without being prompted? Don't they read the papers? And when was money ever a hindrance for DRDO?

Sure.. lighter BPJs. One thing. Is there any thing else? Have there been reports about INSAS jamming in the field, costing lives? BFSRs failing? WLR not working?

If money was ever not a hindrance, I am not aware of it

Until one day, incognito, the chief designer landed up on board the vessel and while talking to an old salt, he casually enquired about the human engineering aspects of the ship.
The answer was revealing and it considerably altered the approach of the Naval design staff.
" Pata nahi saab, kaun chuth*** isko banaya."

heh.. yeah. happens with all engineering projs.. thats why you have iPhone & Windows Mobile in this world.

As for Geo Strategic goals, do we really have any?

Even if we havent, these are to be decided by the Govt. How can you lay the blame for this on DRDO?

To have a industrial complex, its necessary to have a reasonably good product first. Good as defined by the user and not the prejudiced and motivated designer.

IMO, its putting the cart before the horse.. Today, India can develop composites, alloys for different applications, radars, missiles.. Where would India be if not for DRDO?

DRDO may not be without its faults, but such vehement & broad criticism is hardly the way to rectify them.

[chetak]

Chetak,

You might be right on most of the points you raised..But I do think that the question of building a domestic military industrial complex is pretty moot. And that doesnt get built by continuiing to import weapon systems. And there hasnt been a single power of note in history that did not have a domestic military industrial complex..

About military claims of "insufficiency" of DRDO products, it kind of cuts both ways - Dr Santhanam once mentioned that the services suffered from what he described as BBC-itis (Best of Brochure Claims). Some of the DRDO projects are discussed ad inifinitum on BR - but to a layman some of the objections of the services seem pretty "excuse-germinating". Take Arjun, did the DRDO develop a heavy 60 ton tank on its own, without a GSQR? Or was it the fact the IA feared that PA is going to acquire the Abrams in the 1980s and therefore wrote out the initial specs for a heavy tank. When the Abrams did not materialise, the IA said "lets do with more of the same!" and blame DRDO for building a "heavy tank"! Going back in history, none of the marquee weapon systems got built to their reputed fame on ver I. the Isarelis made do with refurbished Centurions to start with - and the initial Merkavas were inducted despite reservations..

More knowledgebale people in BR can illuminate us on many more such projects..

The services, on the other hand, seem to sometimes take the "familiarity breeds contempt" philosophy to a different extent when it comes to Indian made stuff..I did some "enquiring" once on some of the ship building projects undertaken in India. Two years into a particular prject, the IN had not selected the turboshaft! It had also not finalised the EW package, and to top it all, the confusion (then) on the Barak meant that the shipbuilder didnt have half the specs of the ship! And this is from the IN, which is the best of the three services when it comes to patronising the domestic effort..

Lastly, about the examples you gave (BPJs, small arms etc)..I would in fact say that there should NOT be any DRDO initiative for these things.. They are easily available in the global market, sanctions proof, relatively cheap, and involve in most cases no real "streatgic" tech frontiers..On the other hand, some of the "shiny" projects as you refer them, eg, combat aircraft, missiles etc, involve breakthrough tech development..These techonolgies build a national mil industrial cmplex..

I agree on one premise - the DRDO tries to do a lot of things by itself. In this era of coopetition, it would doa lot better by getting into JVs like the Brahmos..But again, for the real high end stuff, things like hypersonic vehicles, or satellite surveillance tech, no one shares anything material...

On the other hand, the services need to be clear on what they want - very often the services induct a system and then figure out how it fits into their ooperational doctrine (I am not saying this, people like Adm Prakash have said this publicly many times)...And they need to sometimes "invest" in a system even if its not a 100% - the IAF order forr 2 Akash regiments is a small example...They need to show at least the same tolerance for the Indian system that they show soemtimes for the foreign stuff - how many years were the Talwars delayed by? And did the IN ever do an investigation on the mysterious death of the officer who refused to sign up for its induction befroe the glitches were sorted out?

somnath ji,

I don't remember who said this but you can succeed spectacularly if you don't care who gets the credit. The old karmanye vadhi karaste ma phaleshu kadachana ma karma phalaheturbhuhu ma te sangostwakarmani ...
In trying to garner all the credit, DRDO has wound up with egg on its face. There is no dearth of IIT MTech graduates in the services. There are also many foreign qualified PhDs in uniform. No one can pull wool over the others eyes!
The Kaveri marine GT version is largely Navy driven for example.

Industrial complexes need not make only tanks and aircraft.
There is a huge demand for helmets and BPJs to name just two. Why not make them here and export if need be.
Tarring one and all with a wide brush has resulted in all concerned retreating to entrenched, aggressive and fiercely turf protecting ghettos.
Yes, there are faults on both sides but nowhere else in the world has a DRDO type organisation such unbridled powers of veto. They started out to support the troops and now its the other way around!
Unbridled because of the manipulative DDM, a la tehelka, which can manufacture facts to suit the occasion and put the fear of god into folks cozy retirement plans. Senior blokes everywhere have not got to where they are without learning to side step a few landmines. Media thrives on the motivated leaks from such guys.

Naval vessels are the most incredibly complicated weapon systems of all. We have chosen to tread the most difficult path of all by integrating eastern and western systems on one platform and very successfully pissed off west and east.
All the supplier countries are extremely wary of dealing with us because they are all expecting to be ripped off.
The suppliers want the expensive rights to upgrade their systems. They want a gulf type scenario where bribes are paid, orders obtained, pakis come and fly the planes in combat and total a great many of them and then the supplier waltzes in and replaces the lost planes and upgrades the whole lot at great cost while laughing all the way to the bank.
They see our IT strengths and foolishly conclude that similar capability exists in all other fields.

This is why our foreign projects are delayed, suppliers initially quote high because they have to factor in bribes, loss of business not coming from anticipated upgrades and "administrative" expenses. They don't trust us.
The whole Russian mess is another ball game altogether.
The supply chain of the Russians military industrial complex has been deeply mangled following the breakup of the soviet union. They will not admit the true extent of the damage. They have lost control of expensive plants and factories which have gone to some of the other republics. These republics cannot run these plants as they have other and more pressing problems.

Delay or no delay,
We need the AG and the Talwars and the Akulas and whatever.
Such stuff is not available elsewhere for love or for money.
You are trying to enter into a new marriage with the americans and the russians are not accepting talaq.

The services are clear about what they want and what can be delivered by DRDO in the medium term. The services are not going to build the military industrial complex. A substantial part of such a comlplex already exists in the defence PSUs.
Its for DRDO to do it by transferring technology, inviting JV partners and give confidence of sustained production runs by excellent products.

And finally the question of showing tolerance for Indian systems is all fine.
The proof of the pudding is only in the eating.

[vina]

I don't remember who said this but you can succeed spectacularly if you don't care who gets the credit. The old karmanye vadhi karaste ma phaleshu kadachana ma karma phalaheturbhuhu ma te sangostwakarmani ...

Oh yeah.. Tell that to your defense forces pals. Most of them are the old Harrumphs, who wouldn't be able to find their asses with their own two hands, but have egos the size of mountains. Frankly, the user knows jack schmidt about any product development. It is not in the Indian defense forces DNA (except Navy). All they can do is buy ready made stuff and maintain them. That is about all the engineering and product development part they know . They cant come up with the PRD for anything as innocuous and simple as a jeep which is anywhere realistic.

They see our IT strengths and foolishly conclude that similar capability exists in all other fields.

That didnt come about by magic and if the idiocy of the defense forces and govt continues, that same situation will continue to exist.

The whole Russian mess is another ball game altogether.
The supply chain of the Russians military industrial complex has been deeply mangled following the breakup of the soviet union. They will not admit the true extent of the damage. They have lost control of expensive plants and factories which have gone to some of the other republics. These republics cannot run these plants as they have other and more pressing problems.

We need the AG and the Talwars and the Akulas and whatever.
Such stuff is not available elsewhere for love or for money.
You are trying to enter into a new marriage with the americans and the russians are not accepting talaq.

Oh no. The entire Russian stuff is the "Natasha Hangover" . Having multiple Natashas cooing has become too much of an addition ,along with all that cash and kick backs. You dont need Talwars and Akulas, you need commons sense first and integrity along with that. For that Gorshkov fiasco, if you had bent your backs you would have had the IAC in water by now.

The services are clear about what they want and what can be delivered by DRDO in the medium term. The services are not going to build the military industrial complex.

The know jack schmidt. Look at the entire conference and fiasco about the "Future Generation tank", a half assed attempt to get in the Russian garbage under development via the back route under totally specious reasons.

excellent products.

Excellent products!. They wouldn't know it if they got whacked in their faces with one. Lets face it. They dont buy because of "excellence" or anything else of products. They buy based on Natashas and cost. The rest of the stuff can be "adjusted" ( solpa adjust maadi saar) or "fitted" in.

[chetak]

To have a industrial complex, its necessary to have a reasonably good product first. Good as defined by the user and not the prejudiced and motivated designer.

IMO, its putting the cart before the horse.. Today, India can develop composites, alloys for different applications, radars, missiles.. Where would India be if not for DRDO?

sudeepj ji,

Try thinking where would India be if not for the poor unlamented soldier.
He has singlehandedly paid with his life since 1947, even when he did not understand the reason that "towering intellectuals" like nehru screwed him and others continue to rape him to this very day.

Then and just then, you might begin to understand the the depth of feeling at the needless death that we see inflicted on the forces by our own.

[Rahul M]

chetak ji, no-one is blaming the Indian soldier.
if they have been exploited, bulk of the blame lies at the feet of the MOD babus and even the generals.

Don't give me tosh that we don't have enough BPJs because of DRDO vetos. at a time when even the pvt sector is manufacturing and exporting BPJs, that is simply not believable.

Soldiers pay with their lives because QC is not maintained at the OFBs, thanks to the communist trade unions, again, it's not the DRDO that runs these.

armoured corp top brass continues to buy russian tin cans endangering the very same soldiers on the frontline, how is DRDO to blame there ?

It's nobody's argument that DRDO is delivering 100% of the time. but the mismatch and lack of communication and guidance from the forces is shocking.
if the army is not able to draw up a GSQR that will stand 10-15 years in the future who is to be blamed for myopia ?

In armed forces of every country with a MIC worth the name, products are accepted with numerous minor and even a few major defects, which are then ironed out with the help of user feedback.

In India too, forces do the same, BUT only for the foreign products. when a barrel bursts in a tank or promised TOT is not given on time or the entire TI cook off, army punishes such products by placing huge orders.
no such consideration however for the desi ones.
If the product has one minor flaw, we will throw it back in your face and if it is perfect, we will order a miserly amount and promptly give the bulk of orders to some videshi firm.
This is how the army operates, with no concern for the amount of money and effort that has gone into developing a modern weapon.

In fact the better idea would be for DRDO to completely move out of *any* army projects and leave the army at the mercy of their favourite foreigners.
Because the army does that anyway, this way at least we will save a lot of money that can go into other more fruitful projects.

The forces should be free to choose what they consider best suited for their own operations, not what some scientist thinks that they should have.

I'm sure you are aware of how the F-16 was rammed down the throats of USAF using a ram-rod ??
prejudices and pre-formed biases frequently cloud the opinions of experts. this is true for any field.

[narayana]

prejudices and pre-formed biases frequently cloud the opinions of experts. this is true for any field.

Then Why not Empower a panel with Neutral Experts Both from DRDO,ARMY and MOD and Third Party experts,who will judge the Equipment on its merits without any Prejudice,this way we will put an end to all Fiasco about almost all Foreign Procurements or Local Induction into the forces and the Foot soldier gets the best

[chetak]

chetak ji, no-one is blaming the Indian soldier.
if they have been exploited, bulk of the blame lies at the feet of the MOD babus and even the generals.

Don't give me tosh that we don't have enough BPJs because of DRDO vetos. at a time when even the pvt sector is manufacturing and exporting BPJs, that is simply not believable.

Soldiers pay with their lives because QC is not maintained at the OFBs, thanks to the communist trade unions, again, it's not the DRDO that runs these.

armoured corp top brass continues to buy russian tin cans endangering the very same soldiers on the frontline, how is DRDO to blame there ?

It's nobody's argument that DRDO is delivering 100% of the time. but the mismatch and lack of communication and guidance from the forces is shocking.
if the army is not able to draw up a GSQR that will stand 10-15 years in the future who is to be blamed for myopia ?

In armed forces of every country with a MIC worth the name, products are accepted with numerous minor and even a few major defects, which are then ironed out with the help of user feedback.

In India too, forces do the same, BUT only for the foreign products. when a barrel bursts in a tank or promised TOT is not given on time or the entire TI cook off, army punishes such products by placing huge orders.
no such consideration however for the desi ones.
If the product has one minor flaw, we will throw it back in your face and if it is perfect, we will order a miserly amount and promptly give the bulk of orders to some videshi firm.
This is how the army operates, with no concern for the amount of money and effort that has gone into developing a modern weapon.

In fact the better idea would be for DRDO to completely move out of *any* army projects and leave the army at the mercy of their favourite foreigners.
Because the army does that anyway, this way at least we will save a lot of money that can go into other more fruitful projects.

The forces should be free to choose what they consider best suited for their own operations, not what some scientist thinks that they should have.

I'm sure you are aware of how the F-16 was rammed down the throats of USAF using a ram-rod ??
prejudices and pre-formed biases frequently cloud the opinions of experts. this is true for any field.

Rahul M ji,

The BPJ was just an example of the widespread malaise that pervades the system. Let it go.

But any thoughts on why they have not been procured in the quantities required? No DRDO veto here I am sure but still no BPJs? or the other small stuff?

The Indian soldier is at the very bottom of a large food chain ( I am including the police and para military also here).
Most of them are just innocent farm boys who are increasingly being led by people who would not have made the grade 10 years ago.
No one wants to die, you see. So the politicos are well protected. The soldiers however get little facilities, lesser pay and degraded status so that the politicos can keep them under control.
Every one pisses on the johnnie and wants him to die for them.

Eroding values, chalta hai attitude, trade unions, MOD babus or whatever and in the end the soldiers pay with their lives. It does not even register on the aam janta anymore. Its always the soldier who pays

Padma Bhushan for Ramachandra Guha?
Biriyani for terrorists?
We seem to have got it arse backward.

Armoured corp top brass don't decide the tanks, they are asked to justify already made decisions. They are left holding the empty bottles and the much humped natashas, while their masters hump the country. Remember Bofors?

DRDO is also up there some where in this food chain.

I am sure that if the Army could they surely would draw up a GSQR that would stand 10-15 years in the future.
I really don't know why they didn't. Look at the LCA, moving target there again but there has to be some over riding reason for sane and serious guys in the forces to change the ASRs / GSQRs midstream as it were ( if at all they did), don't you think?. I don't think things are as simple as is being made out by either of the parties concerned. Corruption is more suited to dark corners and not to the full glare of public scrutiny

[chetak]

prejudices and pre-formed biases frequently cloud the opinions of experts. this is true for any field.

Then Why not Empower a panel with Neutral Experts Both from DRDO,ARMY and MOD and Third Party experts,who will judge the Equipment on its merits without any Prejudice,this way we will put an end to all Fiasco about almost all Foreign Procurements or Local Induction into the forces and the Foot soldier gets the best

narayana ji,

Neutral Experts?

And where will we find these mythical beasts?

Growing in the very "dens of iniquity" (DRDO,ARMY and MOD) that all are castigating?

Well done! Another panel is sure to set back any procurement by atleast 20 years

Spoken like a true bureaucrat, You have a bright future sir

[somnath]

I think this isnt a simple matter of desi v/s videshi. The rot stems all the way to the top, of course, Chetak, but the "top" includes a substantial portion of the services staff!

To start with, barring the US and Russia, no other country tries to build everything by itself..For some reason, DRDO was given (or did it arrogate to itself?) the mandate of making every single major and minor piece of equipment possible. Dr Kala, God bless him, once spoke of a figure of 70% indigenisation..No one asked, 70% by value, by numbers, or by criticality? Add to it the fact that strategic plannign, the process that would throw up long term requirements, and therefore the relative criticality of individual equipemnt, is conspicuous by its absence - crimnally in the political lerdership, as well as in the militart leadership..

The talk of shifting GSQRs/ASQRs - when it started, the LCA was supposed to be a Mig 21 replacement.At soem stage it seems the ASQRs changed to making it a 4th gen aircraft! And when the weight penalty kicked in, they said that the engine is underpowered! The LCA project is not important just for the platform - there is an aerospace industry being built on it...If the IAF kills it with its negative vibes, it will forever be buying foreign stuff - today the MRCA, tomorrow the PAKFA, day after maybe the F22++!

And no mil industrial complex is built on making small arms and BPJs. It is built on cutting edge frontier areas of tech - DRDO should be concentrating there. The services should ensure that DRDO does THAT, and also invest in it by inducting systems that are 70 or 80% "there", and rectifying in the Mark II version..

[narayana]

narayana ji,

Neutral Experts?

And where will we find these mythical beasts?

Growing in the very "dens of iniquity" (DRDO,ARMY and MOD) that all are castigating?

Well done! Another panel is sure to set back any procurement by atleast 20 years

Spoken like a true bureaucrat, You have a bright future sir

Hey Chetak,
I dont want to be a bureaucrat mate,but i am worried about the foot soldier who is in the line of fire,No BPJ's,Army says INSAS is sub standard,No Body bags,No Snow Bikes,No Jet Trainers,No Anti Tank Missiles,No SAMs etc etc etc.

And all these Caught in Tu-Tu Mein-Mein Between DRDO and Armed Forces,some one says equipment is substandard, some says GSQR is changed.some one should be a Umpire in this Fight and give the soldier the BEST equipment ON TIME.

Without any panels also things are dragging for decades,ex:-arjuns,Hawks etc etc etc etc etc

[Nitesh]

xposting

Supercomputing in India

[KiranM]

I'm sure you are aware of how the F-16 was rammed down the throats of USAF using a ram-rod ??
prejudices and pre-formed biases frequently cloud the opinions of experts. this is true for any field.

I wouldnt say F-16 was rammed down the USAF's throat by non-USAF entities. It was more like one USAF faction rammed it down the throat of the rest of USAF.

F-16 was the baby of Col. John Boyd and his 'fighter mafia', who were at odds with the 'bomber generals'.

[Rahul M]

and there's no reason to think that similar factions don't exist in the IA.

[K Mehta]

and there's no reason to think that similar factions don't exist in the IA.

I think Ajai shukla's articles have suggested some of this, so have some articles on our very own BR main site with regard to Arjun MBT.

[Philip]

The HAL chief has described the DRDO perfectly.An "academic" culture prevails where the concept of time is infinite.Thus the end user gets totally frustrated "Waiting for Godot" and the DRDO becomes an enemy not aaprtner in progress.If the political masters also do not care about such important projects of monumental national importance,then failure is assured.They are the virtual owners of the projects payed for by the taxpayer who bears the entire burden of such procrastination.

Secondly,mere development of some systems and components do not a sophisticated weapon system make like a tank or aircraft.We have shamefully 60+ years after independence not a single contemporary aircraft engine indigenously developed! The LCA is flying with a US engine (plus Israeli radar planned),the IJT with a Russian,the ALH with French ones and even when it comes to gas turbines for the IN's warships,we have Russian or Ukranian ones.Only Kirloskar makes some diesels under licence (?) to save the day.So those who condemn the armed forces for importing total weapon systems at times,must examine the true indigenous nature of the so-called indigenous weapon systems developed indigenously.

The services also should be more pragmatic in their demands from local industry which just cannot deliver many cutting edge technology because the R&D base and infrastructure for certain technology does not exist in the country.Expecting the DRDO to produce specs from the latest arms major brochures is setting the bar too high in most cases.The IN is by far the most pragmatic of the services,with a track record of incremental improvement with every warship acquired or built under licence.It improved the Leander design,developed that into the Godavari and B'putra series and "stretched" the Kashins into the Delhi series,which again is being improved with the advent of Brahmos.Indian ingeniuty is best when free from shackles and allowing Indian corporate giants to enter the field will give a quantum boost to indigenisation.Here the DRDO can become a partner with Indian corporate houses transferring its R&D to them to develop and produce designs.If one looks at the auto industry,one can see how Tatas and Mahindras have done India proud with their cost effective designs.Until accountability emerges in the DRDO and our PSUs,wheer the GOI takes real charge and monitors performance,the sorry situ will continue to exist.

[vina]

The HAL chief has described the DRDO perfectly.An "academic" culture prevails where the concept of time is infinite.

That takes the cake!. Of all the people, HAL, the arm pit of Govt sloth and babudom, not exactly known for having anything at all in all these years of existence that would place it anywhere in the list of even marginal makers (yeah, they license assembled a large no of aircraft, particularly russian), talking abuot "academic" culture. Classic case of pot calling kettle black. Who the hell is to talk about HAL's own abysmal PSU/Govt work culture and lack of abililty.

At least DRDO researches and comes up with something new. HAL does abolutely nothing new. Nothing innovative, path breaking or even different in terms of even just bare design and manufacturing, leave alone something fundamental like a new composite material or a new aerodynamic or any other engineering breakthrough.

Ok, leave that part, even as a pure business, I doubt that they had even a standard double entry accounting sytem and a proper balance sheet in place, where you could evalaute performance and track financial or other measures like a proper company. It would have operated on a Govt Wampum based funny money system.

Secondly,mere development of some systems and components do not a sophisticated weapon system make like a tank or aircraft.We have shamefully 60+ years after independence not a single contemporary aircraft engine indigenously developed! The LCA is flying with a US engine (plus Israeli radar planned),the IJT with a Russian,the ALH with French ones and even when it comes to gas turbines for the IN's warships,we have Russian or Ukranian ones.Only Kirloskar makes some diesels under licence (?) to save the day.So those who condemn the armed forces for importing total weapon systems at times,must examine the true indigenous nature of the so-called indigenous weapon systems developed indigenously.

There you go again, like a broken record on 100% indegenous etc.. That is a the classic "socialist" brainwashing of yesteryears. Repeat this again until it becomes clear. YOU CAN NEVER BE 100% INDIGENOUS, NO COUNTRY CAN, NOT EVEN THE US. We have to focus our energies and competencies in certain niches where we have comparative advantage and trade with others where we dont!. That is the fundamental basis of all trade! . Now, that argument of oh, your plane uses an American engine or the tank uses a German engine and hence not "indigenous" is absolutely bogus and to use that to say , okay, since you are not 100% indigenous, I will go and buy a 100% foreign system, is just plainly dishonest. That we have gone over and over in this forum. In a local design, you have full control , you build up industrial base, and you get a product tailored to your specific condition and need. In a 100% foreign system, you get none (maybe a screw driver assembly shop like HAL and have the commies and unions and Natashas to be happy with) of those and you pay an arm and a leg and remain a long term loser with ever increasing dependency!.

By your logic, the M1A2 Abrams is NOT American, becuase the main gun is German, the Merkava is NOT isreali becuase the main gun is German and the engine is German-American and so is the transmission , the Korean MBT is NOT Korean because bulk of the systems are wholesale french,and maybe in the Chally 2, nothing at all is British, except the name!.

Face it, the Americans, French, Brits and Russians have jet engines and marine engines becuase they continuously invested in those areas, fieled products contionously and improved on them . Here you had zero investment, never inducted any product, always prefering to import and then whine that the best doesn't come out by magic!.

The services also should be more pragmatic in their demands from local industry which just cannot deliver many cutting edge technology because the R&D base and infrastructure for certain technology does not exist in the country.Expecting the DRDO to produce specs from the latest arms major brochures is setting the bar too high in most cases.

Oh, the problem is not with asking for the moon, but really in realizing that when you ask for the moon, it will take tremendous amount of money, time and uncertainty and you wont get the moon right away, but only if you walk step by step and be a partner and be patients with failures and sucess you will get it.

It is also a question of economics. You cannot make 100% of a system in India (or in any one country for that matter, unless you are the US maybe) and that you need to pick and choose on what you want to do and buy certain sub systems off the shelf. THAT has been the secret of the Navy's success. The focused on being a systems integrator and designer and bought off the stuff that meets their requirements (a radar from Signaal, a gun from Oto Malera, engines for US/ Soviet Union, a missle system from there , fire fighting equipment from somewhere else etc). Now going by your logic, the Delhi class is NOT indigenous, because the engines are Ukranian, Missiles are Russian and Radar is Dutch! .

The 100% indigenization fetish of the Army and Air Force is what gets them into trouble all the time. Esp the Army.

[bhavin]

Periodically, we keep on going through these cycles !! If only JCage was here, it would have been fun But seriously, what are people trying to say ??

- Remove DRDO because it is not producing 100% result or Army wants this, hence give it to them or get out or what???

In my few years here at the forum, I have actually come to appreciate how much is actually done by DRDO.. for a country like India, we should be proud that we have such organization... At the same time, Army also has valid concerns and they should be addressed.... The issue that I have is that instead of collaborating, army and drdo are antagonists and in such cases, how can we expect good results... Just because drdo was not able to deliver on some items does not mean that it can do nothing right... I would dearly love to see indigenous equipment in mass use because for a country where " 1 in 3 is living on less than $2 a day" (sarcastic comment), every rupee spent in India means a rupee more for our people...

Chetakji, the issues that you have listed above, imvho, can be put at the foot of bureaucracy in MOD/Procurement etc... I would seriously doubt that DRDO has a major say in it... if drdo had that much clout, today navy would be using trishul, army would have been driving arjun all the way to RYK ... air force would be using LCA with lower thrust engine... the reality is that we really don't know what's actually going on, on the inside and hence would be unwise to throw out baby alongwith bathwater...

Chetakji, I am sure you will find that BR is the last place where the " poor unlamented soldier" would be given a short shrift.. Nobody would blame the soldier or deny him his due on this forum...

As far as the foreign suppliers are concerned, you have got the wrong end of the stick - in fact, they would probably give a lowball estimate to get the contract and then milk it for all its worth.... I am sure you will agree that India does keep its end of the contract with any foreign vendor and not reverse engineer blatantly like our neighbors to the north... Hence, every vendor should be salivating at the prospect of having a cashcow like India... What does delay the procurement is the marathon chai-biskoot sessions that are indulged in till cows come home...

Also, there is a difference between need and want - I might want Angelina Jolie as my SHQ but I can't do anything if she turns out to be like Rambha... she will still fulfill essential functions and take care of my needs...

just my 2 cents.. (actually make that 4 cents in this economy)

[Katare]

Vina if you run for PM's post in India I'll vote for you!

Vina = India's answer to Obama

[Kanson]

Vina if you run for PM's post in India I'll vote for you!

Vina = India's answer to Obama

We need more people like this.

I might want Angelina Jolie as my SHQ but I can't do anything if she turns out to be like Rambha

Rambha is India's Angeli.

I dont know why suddenly so many anti-drdo articles, rants... yes in cycles, is it something like before feb 14 we must express our love to Army by doing these anti- stories..

[maz]

Let me put in my 2 cents:

DRDO's strength would appear to be in the field of electronics - radars, sonars, EW, comms systems. On the other hand, in the automotive/armored vehicles segment, it is lacking in a major way. Leaving aside Project Arjun, DRDO has not been able to make a simple family of WORLD CLASS armored vehicles such a wheeled APC, scout cars, etc save for a few tecnology demonstrators.

http://www.drdo.org/labs/vrde/achieve.html

http://www.drdo.org/labs/cvrde/achieve.html


Truthfully, projects like Takshak (based on Tata 713 trucks) are very crude products IMHO and more suited to IS operations for police forces.

The BEML TATRA vehicles are a readily available source for a range of armored vehicle platforms.

Having said this, the various import lobbies within the Army are probably responsible for the present state of affairs. Wonder whatever happened to the Abhay IFV project?

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

[Sanjay]

Maz, the Indian paramilitary forces aren't even importing APCs and armoured scout cars. The fault isn't DRDOs or OFBs but I think priorities. The mine-proof vehicles are making an introduction into service but look also at the many varieties of bullet-proof troop carriers and gypsies that are around. Is there a need for an armoured scout car in COIN ops when the gypsy suffices ?

[maz]

Sanjay, your comments are duly noted. However, the Gypsy based armd troop carrier platforms are woefully underpowered. My point is that contemporary looking, state of the art armored troop carriers/APC. etc need to be produced for the military/security forces instead of "home made" contraptions.

I imagine that Tata 6X6, Stallion 6x6 chassis and Tatra chassis could be the basis for a series of 'MRAP' vehicles.

[Sanjay]

Maz, the army has issued no RFP for anything of the type - yet. Let it happen and I do not think the Indian automotive industry will be found wanting.

In terms of bullet-proof vehicles though - and remember that is what most internal-security APCs are - quantity has a quality all of its own and cheap bulletproof vehicles with machine gun mounts are needed in large quantities. Remember the requirements are huge - home made is far from perfect and the vehicles are ungainly and far from perfect but they work.

[Hiten]

cross-posting from mil acquistation thread

looks like MCA has been officially announced

Domain-B - ADA to develop medium combat aircraft

India's Aeronautical Development Agency, a Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) lab, will design and develop a medium combat aircraft with "stealth features" in partnership with Indian Air Force.......

.....They (IAF) are also coming forward to evolve the specifications of medium combat aircraft...what we call next generation fighter aircraft.....

.....a twin-engine, 20-tonne aircraft, likely to be powered by a Kaveri-Snecma engine....

[ajay_ijn]

Can India's aerospace manufacturers step up?

Aerospace companies from Brazil, China, Japan and Russia lead the way in development and production of 21st century aircraft - can Indian companies step up as well?

Overseas companies have been setting up operations in India for several years, taking advantage of the country's pool of highly qualified engineering, science and computing graduates. They have long-established ties with India's IT companies, but now seek engineering and manufacturing partnerships as part of their offset obligations and as India attempts to plug a technology gap with the rest of the world.

While state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics remains the behemoth in Indian aerospace, a number of rivals from the private sector are emerging to take advantage of the offset requirements that come with military contracts, and the growth of India's civil aerospace sector. The government encourages them by giving tax breaks to increase the country's manufacturing base, and foreign companies are happy as they do not want to partner HAL only.


BOEING PARTNERSHIPS

Boeing, which has had a long presence and formed several partnerships in India, says that it is aware of the government's desire to let the private sector play a larger role. "India has an impressive aerospace industrial base and a good network of aeronautical development labs supported by world-class educational institutions," says the company.

It adds: "Boeing's experience in implementing offset programmes around the world suggests Indian industry will benefit greatly from industrial participation. In our experience, benefits will include access to new technologies and processes, opening of new markets through our supplier network, creation of jobs, and increases in revenues and earnings."

One likely beneficiary is Larsen & Toubro, an engineering and construction conglomerate that has signed deals with companies including European defence conglomerate EADS and the USA's Boeing and Raytheon. These firms are keen to tap L&T's expertise, while the Indian company hopes to diversify its revenue streams.

"L&T has worked closely with Indian defence establishments in developing and putting into production a range of advanced systems," said M V Kotwal, the company's senior executive vice-president at its Heavy Engineering division, after signing an agreement with Raytheon.

"Currently we are one of the leading suppliers in Indian defence. This new agreement will help us induct superior technology, and expand our range of high-value offerings in the defence sector."

Others are making plans to move into aircraft manufacturing. Hero Motors, India's largest manufacturer of motorcycles, plans to produce light aircraft at its proposed 120Ha (300 acre) aerospace park in the central Indian state of Madhya Pradesh. This is part of "a vision to diversify the company's product portfolio", says the company, which adds that it plans to join hands with a European manufacturer for the venture.

It hopes to begin work on the facility in the first half of this year if the government gives it permission to set up a special economic zone in Madhya Pradesh. India has been encouraging its companies to set up these zones, which enjoy tax breaks and other incentives, to boost the country's manufacturing base.

Mahindra & Mahindra, which manufactures cars and has an extensive engineering business, has signed deals with Western firms such as BAE Systems as part of their offset obligations. However, it is also jointly developing a five-seat light aircraft with the National Aerospace Laboratories, the state R&D firm, and each will manufacture two prototypes in 2009.

NAL will be responsible for getting Indian certification for the NM5-100, while M&M subsidiary Mahindra Aerospace is responsible for certification outside the country. The aircraft is targeted at India's growing air taxi, training and medical evacuation markets, and NAL and Mahindra could jointly manufacture the type if there are enough orders.

FIRST OF MANY

Managing director Anand Mahindra says that the company plans to be involved from the design to manufacture stage, and that this could just be the first of many civil aviation production projects.

The biggest challenge to HAL could come from Indian conglomerate Tata Group. The company has had a long history in aviation and helped to set up national carrier Air India, and last year sought approval to set up an aerospace manufacturing facility on the outskirts of Hyderabad, capital of the country's southern Andhra Pradesh state. Current chairman Ratan Tata is also an aviation buff and pilot.

A proposed 20Ha facility will anchor a 100Ha special economic zone dedicated to the aerospace industry and Tata Advanced Systems, a division within the Tata Group, will lead the project. Industry sources say that senior company officials are spearheading the initiative, although the global economic crisis could be an obstacle.

Tata is one of India's oldest and most famous business houses with wide-ranging interests including car manufacturing, steel production and IT services. Its entry would shake up the aerospace sector. Tata has signed deals with several Western companies, including one to manufacture components for Boeing and another to produce helicopter cabins for Sikorsky. It has also taken a one-third stake in Italy's Piaggio Aero.

Industry sources say the company is keen to move into full-scale aircraft assembly and production in both the civil and military markets. This would put it in direct competition with HAL, which is now the only Indian company with the facilities to produce aircraft.

"If anyone can break HAL's stranglehold on aerospace production in India, it is Tata. They have the resources, determination and manufacturing capability. The only problem is that the economic situation may make it harder to make the capital investment required to embark on full-scale aircraft production," says a source close to Tata.

SALES GROWTH

HAL is not standing still. The company was ranked 40th in Flight International's list of the top 100 aerospace companies globally last year. For the year ending 31 March 2008, the company reported that its sales grew by 11% to Rp86.25 billion ($1.8 billion) and profits after tax were 42% higher at Rp16.32 billion.

The depreciation of the Indian rupee over the past few months has taken the shine off HAL's proud claim of becoming a company with a $2 billion turnover, but outgoing chairman Ashok Baweja remains confident that turnover will reach $3 billion earlier than the target of 2011.

Partial privatisation remains a possibility for the company, which comes under the defence ministry's purview, but insiders wonder if that is necessary as the Indian government has already granted HAL the prestigious "Navaratna" status. This allows state-owned companies greater autonomy in almost areas of its business, including the freedom to form joint ventures with private companies. Former finance minister P Chidambaram set the benchmark high when he said that HAL's "market is the world, not just India".

Senior HAL officials are similarly optimistic. Director of finance D Shivamurti says: "We expect to continue doing very well over the next few years. HAL is the only company with the ability to handle the military and civil aerospace programmes. We are cash rich and will use that to invest in research and development capabilities, and improve our manufacturing facilities and infrastructure."

Competition does not faze the company, he adds. "We actually helped a lot of companies by giving them subcontracts, and so have been partly responsible for the development of the private sector. If they do well, it is also because of us. Nobody has the capabilities that we have, and we will ensure that we stay ahead of the game."

A big chunk of the company's revenues have come from the licence-production of aircraft such as the BAE Hawk 132 advanced jet trainer, Sepecat Jaguar and Sukhoi Su-30MKIs, and Chetak and Chetan versions of the Aerospatiale Alouette III helicopter. Upgrades for aircraft such as the Dassault Mirage 2000, RSK MiG-21 and MiG-27, and older versions of the Jaguar, are also profitable.

HAL production lines still run at almost full capacity manufacturing for the Hawk, the Su-30s, and the indigenous Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter and Tejas Light Combat Aircraft. That is expected to continue in the near future.

The company will also manufacture 108 of the fighters India will order as part of its ongoing Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition, with the OEMs required to supply only the first 18 in a "fly away" condition. The company has also been asked to design, develop and produce 187 light utility helicopters for India's army and air force, and could work with Eurocopter on this programme.

HAL's biggest impediment to achieving its aim of becoming a truly global company, say analysts, could be that it is still part of the Indian government. Its bosses report to the defence ministry, it has an unwieldy structure with 13 divisions covering most aspects of aerospace, 16 production units and nine research and development centres spread across seven locations in India.

It will also be increasingly difficult to attract and retain talent in a country with so many private sector options.

"The financials may be improving, but HAL is still held back by the bureaucratic features that remain in the Indian civil service. Some divisions can be merged and the operations can be streamlined, and the company must become more attractive as an employer by paying better salaries and promoting staff. The government's mindset about the company's role must change as well," says a Bangalore-based analyst.

TOP-TIER GOAL

HAL will also be judged on whether it can become a top-tier supplier for companies such as Airbus and Boeing, much like its Chinese and Japanese. Its must be successful in indigenous programmes such as the Advanced Light Helicopter, Light Combat Helicopter, Intermediate Jet Trainer and proposed Indian Regional Jet, as well as joint programmes with the Russians to develop a medium transport aircraft and a fifth-generation fighter, where it is expected to take a bigger role at the R&D stage.

The company is attempting to increase its revenues from the civil aviation segment. It has joined hands with Boeing to bring $1 billion of manufacturing work to India over the next 10 years and plans to convert passenger aircraft to cargo use at a proposed maintenance, repair and overhaul joint venture with the company at Nagpur in central India. It also has a contract to manufacture doors for the Airbus A320 series.

The company is investing Rp1 billion in an engine components manufacturing joint venture with Pratt & Whitney, and will supply fuselages for the Gulfstream G150 business jet. The old Bangalore international airport, which HAL owns, has been mooted as a regional passenger aircraft maintenance, repair and overhaul hub and business aviation centre. It will also play a big role in the proposed Indian Regional Jet, if the programme goes ahead.

With Rp500 billion worth of orders over the next few years, there is no doubt that HAL will continue to do well. But if it and the Indian aerospace industry really want to make a mark globally, more needs to be done

"The problem with India's aerospace business, particularly HAL, is government ownership," says Aboulafia.

"National self-sufficiency sounds like a great idea, but it leads to complacency, high costs, poor product development choices, and inferior, expensive products."

[NRao]

http://www.indianaviationnews.com/pdf/S ... ct%20I.pdf

Oct 2008
Sukhoi offers to set up aircraft plant at Nagpur

Russian aircraft designer and manufacturer Sukhoi has offered to set up
an aircraft manufacturing plant at Nagpur.
The Russian company would like to move
through its Indian partner, the Knowledge
Commission Chairman Sam Pitroda-backed
Vavasi Group. The project is intended for the
MIHAN (Multi-modal International Hub Airport at
Nagpur) project, currently being executed by
the Maharashtra Airport Development
Company (MADC).
The development was revealed by the New and
Renewable Energy Minister, Vilas Muttemwar.
The proposals have emerged in discussions
held by the Vavasi Group with the Minister.
According to the Minister, Sukhoi would like
to partner with the Vavasi group to set up an
aircraft manufacturing plant in Nagpur at an
investment of Euro 2 billion. He revealed that
the Russian aerospace giant is likely to sign
an MoU with the Maharashtra Government
on October 10.

Initially, Sukhoi expects the plant to
manufacture between 25-50 civilian aircraft on
an annual basis with production rates being
ramped up to 100 aircraft a year, in four years.
The aircraft will be the 90-130 seater Sukhoi
100 Super Jet medium-haul passenger aircraft.
The plant alone is expected to create 15,000
direct and 75,000 indirect jobs. The Minister
also said that Sukhoi was prepared to spend
whatever it took to compensate people whose
land would be acquired for the project.

[putnanja]

Now, ISROs bullet-proof vests

The space agency will develop world class bullet-proof armours by the end of this year. The jackets will cost 1/8th to 1/10th of the cost of the imported ones.

“After the Mumbai terror strikes, there was talk about sub-standard bullet proof jackets. In ISRO, we have great facilities which could be used to develop body armours. So we thought why not,” T G K Murthy, director of Atmospheric Science Programme, ISRO told Deccan Herald.

Murthy was in the capital to attend a technical seminar on internal security.

The project will be a joint venture between the ISRO and the International Advanced Research Centre for Powder Metallurgy and New Materials of the Department of Science and Technology.

“It required no fresh investments as we already have the set-up. Silicon Carbide Technology was established for space optics three years ago. Bullet-proof jackets will come as a byproduct,” said Murthy.

Affordability

India currently imports jackets from three undisclosed countries, but all of them are booked till 2012. “It will not only meet the needs of the security personnel but also the public in general because they will be more affordable now,” he added.

A 20-member team is currently involved in the production. The proto-model of the jacket will be ready by the middle of this year.

“We will be able to produce 2,000 jackets per annum whereas the requirement is around 20,000. Private players might collaborate in the future,” added Murthy.

Also, ISRO is thinking ahead and planning a major role in tackling terror in the future as well.

It has plans to develop highly penetrating high-energy laser guns and micro wave-based guns.

The atmospheric science programme section is gearing up to deal with any kind of biological and chemical terror threats, too.

[chetak]

Now, ISROs bullet-proof vests

The space agency will develop world class bullet-proof armours by the end of this year. The jackets will cost 1/8th to 1/10th of the cost of the imported ones.

“After the Mumbai terror strikes, there was talk about sub-standard bullet proof jackets. In ISRO, we have great facilities which could be used to develop body armours. So we thought why not,” T G K Murthy, director of Atmospheric Science Programme, ISRO told Deccan Herald.

Murthy was in the capital to attend a technical seminar on internal security.

The project will be a joint venture between the ISRO and the International Advanced Research Centre for Powder Metallurgy and New Materials of the Department of Science and Technology.

“It required no fresh investments as we already have the set-up. Silicon Carbide Technology was established for space optics three years ago. Bullet-proof jackets will come as a byproduct,” said Murthy.

Affordability

India currently imports jackets from three undisclosed countries, but all of them are booked till 2012. “It will not only meet the needs of the security personnel but also the public in general because they will be more affordable now,” he added.

A 20-member team is currently involved in the production. The proto-model of the jacket will be ready by the middle of this year.

“We will be able to produce 2,000 jackets per annum whereas the requirement is around 20,000. Private players might collaborate in the future,” added Murthy.

Also, ISRO is thinking ahead and planning a major role in tackling terror in the future as well.

It has plans to develop highly penetrating high-energy laser guns and micro wave-based guns.

The atmospheric science programme section is gearing up to deal with any kind of biological and chemical terror threats, too.

These guys are to be appreciated for their initiative, drive and nationalistic spirit.

Not waiting for any body to place "orders".

Hats off to ISRO

[chetak]

Let me put in my 2 cents:

DRDO's strength would appear to be in the field of electronics - radars, sonars, EW, comms systems. On the other hand, in the automotive/armored vehicles segment, it is lacking in a major way. Leaving aside Project Arjun, DRDO has not been able to make a simple family of WORLD CLASS armored vehicles such a wheeled APC, scout cars, etc save for a few tecnology demonstrators.

http://www.drdo.org/labs/vrde/achieve.html

http://www.drdo.org/labs/cvrde/achieve.html


Truthfully, projects like Takshak (based on Tata 713 trucks) are very crude products IMHO and more suited to IS operations for police forces.

The BEML TATRA vehicles are a readily available source for a range of armored vehicle platforms.

Having said this, the various import lobbies within the Army are probably responsible for the present state of affairs. Wonder whatever happened to the Abhay IFV project?

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Maz ji,
In the DRDO, there are a few very solid islands of excellence, if you will, in a vast sea of mediocrity.
In this environment, the Indian crab syndrome is very much alive and kicking.
The powers that be are very much aware of these islands and their distribution.The need of the hour is big brown hairy jewels to
shake up the system and produce results.
Eggs need to be broken for omelets to be made.
If these very mediocre eggs are to take the decision to make the omelet, the conclusion is sadly foregone.

Take a look at one of todays posts regarding ISRO, BPJs, high-energy laser guns and micro wave-based guns.
ISROs jewels are as big, brown and hairy as they come.

[Ramesh]

A question for tech experts here:
How difficult is it to develop terminally guided artillery shells like krasnopol http://www.kbptula.ru/eng/kuw/krasn.htm locally?

Is is technically feasible and financially viable to put a ring laser gyro in this kind of system?