Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 24 Feb 2009 10:23

KiranM wrote: IIRC the SFF did undertake ops which fall under the realm of special ops (including blowing up an important bridge) in Chittagong Hill Tracts. I had posted in Military Miscellaneous thread a link to a comprehensive review of 1971 war by a firangi birader. It included few details of SFF deployment.

You are right. I was only referring to the covert ops involving MB. IIRC didnt SFF lose 56 men or so in the 1971 war or was it much more?

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 24 Feb 2009 10:33

Raja Bose wrote:Nayak, who enchandee...the TFTA Germans??

Can you post the link to your post which mentions the article? Thanks!

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 018571.cms

Mumbai evidence point to LeT role: German Police chief
23 Jan 2009, 0257 hrs IST, TIMES NEWS NETWORK & AGENCIES
Print Email Discuss Share Save Comment Text:
NEW DELHI: Germany's Federal Police chief Joerg Ziercke said on Thursday that evidence in the Mumbai killings pointed to Lashkar-e-Taiba's role.
Ziercke, who is on a visit to India to discuss the Mumbai attacks with Indian authorities, however, refrained from saying whether or not LeT had any direct link with the terror attacks.

Sources said that Germany was interested in helping India to carry out counter-terrorism operations and also in strengthening its coastal security system.

Germany is also likely to send a unit of its elite commando force, GSG-9, to train commandos in India. The chief of the force, Olaf Linder, will visit India next month. Ziercke said that Germany had provided vital inputs when India raised the National Security Guards (NSG) 20 years ago.

Germany has set up Joint Counter-Terrorism Centre (JCTC) bringing under one roof its 40-odd security agencies as also a Joint Internet Analysis Centre (JIAC) in its efforts to fight terror. "The counter-terrorism centre and internet analysis centre were the focal points that we discussed. We finally came to the conclusion that the basic principle or premise you must operate on is to have a unified exchange of information, strategies and planning,'' he said.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 24 Feb 2009 10:36

^^^ Well like I said I can bet NSG has a lot more to offer to GSG9 in terms of real operational experience. GSG9 can probably return the favour with introduction to some fancy new toys and tactics for which they are famous.

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 24 Feb 2009 10:38

Raja Bose wrote:
KiranM wrote: IIRC the SFF did undertake ops which fall under the realm of special ops (including blowing up an important bridge) in Chittagong Hill Tracts. I had posted in Military Miscellaneous thread a link to a comprehensive review of 1971 war by a firangi birader. It included few details of SFF deployment.
You are right. I was only referring to the covert ops involving MB. IIRC didnt SFF lose 56 men or so in the 1971 war or was it much more?

Not aware of the numbers. Just check out that link. It is a pdf with about 100 pages. But accept it FWIW.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 24 Feb 2009 11:02

Raja Bose wrote:Ray sir,

It goes much deeper than that. He was stripped off his pension benefits by being dismissed one day before his retirement! He tried to go thru the courts but nothing happened. This was no average soldier but a brilliant man in most aspects, a shrewd tactician and great athlete. In the end he turned his wrath against his own soldiers stopping even the elite para commandos in their tracks....the death trap at Akal Takht with those murderous machine gun nests on both sides of the approaches were his idea.

not just the paras, but the Guards and the SFF were also in the detachment that made the assault into the temple complex. Bluestar was also the only "public" record of SFF action after the Bangladesh war. There have been some mentions here and there about SFF operating in Kargil but nothing substantive. This is another "off services" org that should be brought under the ambit of a special ops command.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 24 Feb 2009 11:28

Raja Bose wrote:
somnath wrote: Interesting, could well be possible, but never came across any references to that...Any references? Most of the accounts have fairly laudatory references to the contribution of the MB...
Sorry somnath, anecdotal only from my grandfather, so take it FWIW. Don't think such material will find its way in 'official' publications since that insurgency was totally indigenous onlee with India providing moral support and aid to refugees onlee! One of the men who was in the thick of such things (Maj. Gen. Shahbeg Singh) is now dead.....killed by his own army after he turned against them, rightly or wrongly.

MB did need "stiffening", quite a bit, from what I have heard.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 24 Feb 2009 11:59

SFF apparently also trained for the Bluestar assault at Chakrata on a mock structure. Despite that they failed with heavy casualties. Then Para Cdo were sent in under Maj. P.C. Katoch. Got mowed down with lots of casualties plus CS grenades bounced back from window grills of Akal Takht further disabling troops and causing mayhem. Then Guards under Israr Khan were sent to reinforce. They suffered nearly 2 dozen dead in just 1 assault! Just goes to show how low our CQB and HR capabilities were at that time and the odds through which the Army fought during that night. This realization led to the birth of NSG and they have redeemed themselves well despite shortages of some vital assets and equipment.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 24 Feb 2009 12:35

Raja Bose wrote:SFF apparently also trained for the Bluestar assault at Chakrata on a mock structure. Despite that they failed with heavy casualties. Then Para Cdo were sent in under Maj. P.C. Katoch. Got mowed down with lots of casualties plus CS grenades bounced back from window grills of Akal Takht further disabling troops and causing mayhem. Then Guards under Israr Khan were sent to reinforce. They suffered nearly 2 dozen dead in just 1 assault! Just goes to show how low our CQB and HR capabilities were at that time and the odds through which the Army fought during that night. This realization led to the birth of NSG and they have redeemed themselves well despite shortages of some vital assets and equipment.

Are you sure about the "sequentiallity" of the deployment? As far as I remember, both SFF and Paras were inducted simultaeneously - they had different objectives though. The Guards were also deployed for a different objective, but the reserve company went in to reinforce the embattled Paras/SFF.

About Bluestar, more than CQB/CT capabilities, the overall strategy itself was wrong. Much of the blame should be laid at the table of the political leadership as well as the Army top brass for this. Black Thunder showed exactly how these situations can/should be tackled - this is a bit of hindsight 20:20, but sending in troops into the Golden Temple in a surcharged atmosphere was quite daft...But that was the Congress trying to play hindu politics just before the elections...Wonder why the IA didnt put its foot down?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Feb 2009 12:59

I have said this before. the western netas are s***-scared a troop of monkeys will do a 26/11 in their capital cities. they need help and operational debriefs of what happened behind the scenes in 26/11 and for that the fig leaf is that "they will train our Cdos" (cant let go of their superiority complex even there!).

in reality they are coming to mumbai from all nations CT teams with a katora in hand asking for the VIP tour.

well maybe a few new toys will be demoed' which our procurement process will
take 15 yrs to deliver. there's lots of mags in B&N/Borders with catalogues of
such gear. could as well send a couple Marwaris with a suitcase of cash to buy these from the vendors...they will deliver quick and get huge discount using the yindu bargaining skills than these "empowered group of secretaries for price negotiation" types.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 24 Feb 2009 13:18

somnath,

Accounts have varied so cannot say with conviction that the timeline I am quoting is correct. However, AFAIK the initial assaults were SFF and Para Cdo....Guards were not involved. Rest of regular infantry such as Madras had been tasked with other entry points and were still stuck in alleyways (not bogged down by fire AFAIK). IIRC SFF having trained on a mock model assaulted first....fell back. Then Para Cdo were asked to run down the steps, turn and throw CS grenades at Akal Takht in addition to neutralising any threats. That also failed but few commandos were able to get through while rest regrouped and called back on RT from an adjoining square. Then Guards were asked to reinforce Cdo assault and this time all machine gun nests on both sides were neutralized though with heavy casualties.

However, Capt. JS Raina acted as scout....he was not from the Para Cdos or SFF. So quite possible either a regular unit had gone in first or Raina was just acting as a scout since he might have done advance recce of complex in mufti. Raina was one of the first men hit in Bluestar and lost his legs due to Shahbeg Singh's tactics of placing machine gun nests on both sides of corridor. It seems (but not proven) that he was expecting the assaulters to crawl so had ensured that the field of fire would be low but commandos just ran through and literally got their legs cut off from under them.

Anshul · Post by **Anshul** » 24 Feb 2009 13:29

Gaurds were involved.Lt Col.Israr Khan led a volunteer force form The Gaurds.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 24 Feb 2009 13:35

Black thunder was a huge study in contrast to Bluestar. Almost flawlessly executed. Ajit Doval was apparently inside the temple complex all the time disguised as a pilgrim, acting as some sort of eyes and ears within..He got a Kirti Chakra for the effort..

It became some sort of a template to tackle extremists "basing" themselves inside religious places. Even the Hazratbal siege was handled broadly within the same template, though it got a lot of negative press due to the food being taken inside. Gen KV Krishna Rao has good things to say about the handling of the situation in his autobiography.

For all the negative press, its illuminating that we have never had a situation like Golden Temple/Hazratbal since. I guess the terrorists know that the govt has a good template to tackle this sort of challenge well, so they have changed tactics...

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 24 Feb 2009 13:39

Raja Bose wrote:somnath,

However, Capt. JS Raina acted as scout....he was not from the Para Cdos or SFF. So quite possible either a regular unit had gone in first or Raina was just acting as a scout since he might have done advance recce of complex in mufti.

Cap Raina was a scout - he had gone to recon the area before in mufti..And my recollection is that he went in with the Guards, who were launched simultaeneously along with the Para and SFF...

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 24 Feb 2009 13:50

Anshul wrote:Gaurds were involved.Lt Col.Israr Khan led a volunteer force form The Gaurds.

That was after failure of the first assault by Para Cdos. Guards were sent in to reinforce 2nd attempt to neutralize the killing ground in front of Akal Takht.

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 24 Feb 2009 13:55

KiranM wrote: Not aware of the numbers. Just check out that link. It is a pdf with about 100 pages. But accept it FWIW.

Bose sir, for your reference cross posting from Military Miscellaneous thread;

KiranM wrote:Not sure where to post this, but an interesting read on the 1971 Indo-Pak war:
http://www.ndu.edu/nesa/docs/Gill%20atl ... ersion.pdf

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 24 Feb 2009 14:35

anecdotal evidence from ex-military wallahs who were in service during the early 70's has it that many bengali officers from infantry, armour and elsewhere suddenly dissappeared for months at a time on special missions. a few nudge nudge wink wink tales in the bar afterwards as is usual. my father actually met a senior Sikh officer in a bar in Kolkata just prior to the opening of formal hostilities, was an interesting meeting according to him.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 24 Feb 2009 17:43

Err How about reading BRs page on Blue STar instead of "I think" etc.

unless someone has new info

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 24 Feb 2009 23:14

Lalmohan wrote:anecdotal evidence from ex-military wallahs who were in service during the early 70's has it that many bengali officers from infantry, armour and elsewhere suddenly dissappeared for months at a time on special missions. a few nudge nudge wink wink tales in the bar afterwards as is usual. my father actually met a senior Sikh officer in a bar in Kolkata just prior to the opening of formal hostilities, was an interesting meeting according to him.

That is true.

There is a signals officer (I won't mention his name) who won a VrC!

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 25 Feb 2009 00:50

Lalmohan wrote:anecdotal evidence from ex-military wallahs who were in service during the early 70's has it that many bengali officers from infantry, armour and elsewhere suddenly dissappeared for months at a time on special missions. a few nudge nudge wink wink tales in the bar afterwards as is usual. my father actually met a senior Sikh officer in a bar in Kolkata just prior to the opening of formal hostilities, was an interesting meeting according to him.

Aap ki khabar sahi hai. A lot were part of the stiffening process also.

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 25 Feb 2009 01:11

RayC wrote: Para Cdo bn has a total of 538 all ranks.

They have one Adm Team and three groups and each Group has three Teams and an MMG sec and each Team has four section.

In comparison, a Para Bn has 814 all ranks.

That was how it was in my time.

Raja,

I presume each country tries its best to have a real lean and mean SF and they factor the issues as per their requirement.

SAS, Delta Force et al have their ops going askew. No organisation can have 100% success and so unless the organisation botches up ops repeatedly, it does not mean that they are not upto scratch!

Sir, is the stint in Para Commandos also rotational like in NSG?

Mandeep · Post by **Mandeep** » 25 Feb 2009 01:50

Jasbir Pal Singh Raina was from 10 Guards. Awarded the AC.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 25 Feb 2009 02:17

Mandeep,

Was he discharged from Army on disability ground or is he still serving? He was grievously wounded.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 25 Feb 2009 15:00

Gurus, here's a radical suggestion. Please excuse me if I'm being to kiddish. But could we have something like this amongst our own special forces? A bit like the best of Garuds, NSGs, MARCOS, Paras etc. squaring off in a tournament? Some of the advantages would be...

1) Will keep them in a competitive spirit.
2) Will let each unit learn from other participating units.
3) Allow them to try out newer techniques without any unpleasant consequences.
4) So that they don't have to wait for another 26/11 to get realtime experience of dealing with highly trained insurgents.

Can't think of more advantages right now...more from others will be appreciated.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 27 Feb 2009 01:03

KiranM wrote:is the stint in Para Commandos also rotational like in NSG?

No though you are on probation in the beginning when you can be RTUed for failing to meet their high standards. OTH NSG is pure deputation based unit...which might be hurting it since JCOs with experience are not retained unless I am wrong.

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 27 Feb 2009 01:43

Raja Bose wrote:
KiranM wrote:is the stint in Para Commandos also rotational like in NSG?
No though you are on probation in the beginning when you can be RTUed for failing to meet their high standards. OTH NSG is pure deputation based unit...which might be hurting it since JCOs with experience are not retained unless I am wrong.

What are the merits and demerits of both systems? IIRC SAS has deputation system for its officers, where 1st stint is on volunteering and second stint is on invitation from the Regiment.

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 Feb 2009 09:20

SF gurus,
Is there any specific CNS or IN person(s) who can be credited with the formation of the MARCOS since it seemed to suddenly come into existence in the 80s despite no action on that front( formation of a naval commando force) since independence?

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 27 Feb 2009 10:48

Adm. Tahiliani was CNS during the formation of MARCOS though I dont know if he can be 'credited' with it. Prior to MARCOS, IN has EOD personnel and had been demanding such a force for a while. Perhaps other B-R members might know....I had emailed my friend who is currently in it but the damned bugger has no clue

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 27 Feb 2009 13:50

KiranM wrote:
Sir, is the stint in Para Commandos also rotational like in NSG?

No.

It is permanent.

e.g. Lt Gen Harry Lidder was 9 Para Cdo.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 01 Mar 2009 01:53

CRPF, NSG get new chiefs

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 01 Mar 2009 07:39

Raja Bose wrote:Ray sir,

It goes much deeper than that. He was stripped off his pension benefits by being dismissed one day before his retirement! He tried to go thru the courts but nothing happened. This was no average soldier but a brilliant man in most aspects, a shrewd tactician and great athlete. In the end he turned his wrath against his own soldiers stopping even the elite para commandos in their tracks....the death trap at Akal Takht with those murderous machine gun nests on both sides of the approaches were his idea.

Just setting the record straight regarding dismissed and disgraced Maj Gen Shahbeg Singh, who set the fortifications for Bhindaranwale and was killed along with him during Operation Bluestar.

He was dismissed from service for lying about his military dispatches during the 1971 War (Eastern Theatre). He just made up numbers about kills and ammunition captured. He bragged about this at the bar to a course mate. He was court martialled and cashiered.

I think, he played a role in acquiring LMGs that were found in after the Operation Bluestar.

The system did not wrong him, it caught up with him.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 01 Mar 2009 14:30

ManuT,

Interesting allegations but if I recall there was no court martial for him. Also care to provide any supporting evidence for the other allegations in your post?

His role in Bluestar was much more than just acquiring some LMGs. Without him Bhindranwale's indisciplined thugs would not have lasted more than a few hours against the military assault.

Mandeep · Post by **Mandeep** » 01 Mar 2009 15:08

Raja Bose wrote:Mandeep,

Was he discharged from Army on disability ground or is he still serving? He was grievously wounded.

Raina wasn't discharged though he was grievously wounded. AFAIK he's still serving in th Army.

Mandeep · Post by **Mandeep** » 01 Mar 2009 15:18

ManuT wrote:
Raja Bose wrote:Ray sir,

It goes much deeper than that. He was stripped off his pension benefits by being dismissed one day before his retirement! He tried to go thru the courts but nothing happened. This was no average soldier but a brilliant man in most aspects, a shrewd tactician and great athlete. In the end he turned his wrath against his own soldiers stopping even the elite para commandos in their tracks....the death trap at Akal Takht with those murderous machine gun nests on both sides of the approaches were his idea.

Just setting the record straight regarding dismissed and disgraced Maj Gen Shahbeg Singh, who set the fortifications for Bhindaranwale and was killed along with him during Operation Bluestar.

He was dismissed from service for lying about his military dispatches during the 1971 War (Eastern Theatre). He just made up numbers about kills and ammunition captured. He bragged about this at the bar to a course mate. He was court martialled and cashiered.

I think, he played a role in acquiring LMGs that were found in after the Operation Bluestar.

The system did not wrong him, it caught up with him.

Shabegh Singh was dismissed under the provisions of section 311 of the Constitution which empowers the Govt to dismiss any Govt employee without assigning any reason. He had been accused of corruption but nothing had been proven. There was definitely no court-martial in his case. This was his grievance that he was summarily dismissed instead of his case being properly investigated and if necessary being brought to a court martial. One cannot but agree with the merits of his case. Of course joining hands with a terrorist like Bhindranwala, setting up a terrorist group, organising assassinations and attacks on railway stations was no way to articulate his grievances.

There's no question at all about his being caought out for lying about his after-action reports or despatches.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 02 Mar 2009 15:45

Generals were not usually court martialled.

They were asked to put up their papers or face the dismissal without assigning reason.

Gen Rodrigues sent 5 or so Generals home!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 02 Mar 2009 17:35

Gen Rodrigues sent 5 or so Generals home!

cause ?

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 02 Mar 2009 17:38

RayC wrote:Generals were not usually court martialled.

They were asked to put up their papers or face the dismissal without assigning reason.

Was this to preserve Morale and not blow up the issue???

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 02 Mar 2009 18:38

Rahul M wrote:
Gen Rodrigues sent 5 or so Generals home!

cause ?

Morals!

Was this to preserve Morale and not blow up the issue???

If a General is also known to have feet of clay, it will afffect the rank and file.

And so they are quitely shown the door.

However, of late, it is bceoming fashionable to court martial them. leading to court cases and muck slinging!!

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 02 Mar 2009 20:22

Mandeep wrote: It goes much deeper than that. He was stripped off his pension benefits ....

Shabegh Singh was dismissed under the provisions of section 311 of the Constitution which empowers the Govt to dismiss any Govt employee without assigning any reason. ...[/quote]

Well, I did look into it on the internet.
I was speaking from what I had read in 1984 after the Operation Bluestar, no internet then and memory is not infalliable, and the plot was similar to what I stated. I do admit it to be incorrect.

I stand corrected and thanks for pointing it out.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 03 Mar 2009 10:20

SF Folks will recognise this name from the India Today IPKF issues

Capt Arvind Singh, Commanding Officer, INS Ranjit receiving the
'Best Ship Trophy' from Vice Admiral Raman P Suthan

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 03 Mar 2009 10:27

^^^ Youngest MVC winner....ex-IMSF (now, called MARCOS). He is looking good and fit.

Good to know that in Indian Navy SF operators also rise up the ranks to command ships....USN for a long time looked down on SEAL officers....same for US Army and Green Berets most of whom never rose above Col. rank.